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710924 - Conversation - Nairobi

From Vanisource

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



710924R1-NAIROBI - September 24, 1971 - 84:12 Minutes



Guest: Is there any necessity of being seated in the position we are now here? That must be a simple question for them, if one doesn't know how to act, because . . .

Prabhupāda: Is there necessity . . .?

Śyāmasundara: To be . . . as we sitting in this manner.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no.

Śyāmasundara: To be situated . . . (indistinct)

Guest: Before I . . .

Prabhupāda: Sit in certain posture?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: There is necessity to sit down in a certain posture? You ask like this?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So . . .

Guest: So there's no rules governing that?

Prabhupāda: No. You sit like a gentleman, that's all.

Guest: I see. When we are going to live today in the present world, we are having people who are having . . . I mean, we, we are told adultery is bad. Isn't it?

Śyāmasundara: Adultery?

Guest: That for me, adultery.

Śyāmasundara: Adultery.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Adultery is . . .

Brahmānanda: Adultery—is that sex out of marriage?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: And we are also told by . . . other people mention from the world that you should never divorce except on the account of adultery. Those are two questions. Third question is the present birth control that is being practiced, if it is good—to practice birth control as far as the Kṛṣṇa society is concerned.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa society prohibits illicit sex. Illicit sex.

Guest: Illicit sex. Yes.

Prabhupāda: And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11). Kāma, lust, sex desire. Kṛṣṇa says that sex desire, which is not against the religious principles. "That I am." Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi.

How to realize Kṛṣṇa? In the every step of life you can realize God, provided you practice it. That is called bhakti-yoga, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8), "I am the taste of the water." So everyone drinks water and feels satisfaction. When he is thirsty and he drinks water, he becomes satisfied with the taste of the water. So Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the taste." So how one can say that, "I do not know God. I have not seen God. I have no experience of God"? God says: "Here is, I am."

Similarly, He says that prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ (BG 7.8): "I am the shining of the sun, of the moon." So who has not seen the shining of the sun or the moon? Everyone has seen. So how do they say that, "Can you show me God?" Why don't you see God here? Why don't you see God in the taste of water? Why don't you see God in the sun shining. Why don't you see God in moonshine? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says, dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11): the lust, in the lust desire, there is also God. So what is that? What kind of lust? Dharmāviruddho: which is not against religious principles.

So this sex life is not denied, because eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is the necessity of the body. You cannot stop it. So there is concession that you can have sex life only for begetting children—for no other purpose. If you use sex life for any other purpose, that is against religious principles. There are other rules and regulations—that you can have sex with your wife five days after menstrual period, and if she is pregnant, then you cannot have sex life. So if you have sex life more than this, that is against religious principles. And if you become against religious principles, then you become sinful. And if you become sinful, then you cannot make progress towards God-realization.

Because sinful man cannot make progress in God-realization. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has finished his business in sinful activities, janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām—that simply they are engaged in pious activities—such persons, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā, becomes delivered from all dualities, and dvandva-moha, bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ, then become perfect devotee.

So all these restrictions—illicit sex life, gambling, meat-eating, intoxication—are prohibited just to give you protection from sinful life. Because if you remain sinful, then you cannot make progress in God-realization. Therefore these restrictions are there, no adultery. In one word, no illicit sex. Even if you have sex life with your wife beyond that limit—only once in a month after menstrual period, five days—that is also illicit sex. Illicit sex. So because the basic principle is that if you become more and more materially attached, then you cannot become free from this material bondage.

Our present problem is that we are bound up by the material laws, guṇamayī māyā. We are strictly bound up. Just like even in your ordinary dealings, suppose if you eat more, oh, then immediately there will be indigestion. Suppose salt—salt is very important item for our eating—but if salt is put more in the vegetable, you cannot take it. And if there is no salt, oh, you cannot take it, oh "Give a little salt." So we have to take salt exactly to the amount which is necessity, nothing more, nothing less. That is nature's law. So if you violate nature's law, then you become immediately entrapped. Therefore these things are prohibited if you really require liberation.

But people do not understand that, "I am in a very miserable condition of life." That is māyā. Just like Mr. Patel was complaining of so many things, "I am in a miserable condition of life." So we are entrapped by these material laws, and beyond this material life there is another life. That you do not know. And human life is meant for becoming prepared to go back to that life, because we are eternal.

Guest: Eternal life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Eternal life. We are eternal, but at the present moment we have no eternal life.

Guest: What is that eternal life? Would you . . . (indistinct) . . . for me?

Prabhupāda: Eternal life means that there is no birth, death, disease and old age. That is eternal life.

Guest: When is that going to be?

Prabhupāda: When you come to the spiritual platform, that is possible.

Guest: Is there any eternal life, other life, than the one we have at the moment . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is.

Guest: . . . which is more supernatural?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Supernatural. Yes. That is . . .

Guest: Will that be in a gathering of people where people would be living together?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There are many people. Here in this non-eternal life only a fragmental portion of the living entities—fragmental portion. All the living entities within this universe . . . this is one universe. There are unlimited, innumerable universes.

Just like you will see innumerable planets within this one universe, similarly, there are innumerable universes—innumerable suns, moons and other planets—and all of them combined together, that is the one-fourth manifestation of God creation. That is stated: ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42).

Guest: So this is the conclusive evidence that there will be . . . the so-called, the system of faith that is God, who brings men to the world, is it? And then you go to the new world? Is that what it means? The supernatural life for which I think one would not attain in the present world . . .

Prabhupāda: As you are combination . . . just try to understand. You are combination of matter and spirit. You are talking with me. You are thinking that you are talking with your tongue or with your intelligence, with your brain, but one thing is there. As soon as that spirit soul is gone from you, the tongue will remain there, the brain substance will remain there, but no more talking. If you are thinking that the tongue is talking, the brain is talking, that is mistake. The soul is talking through the instrument of the tongue and brain.

So these instruments are material; therefore they are temporary. Anything material is temporary. The material law is that anything is born and manufactured at a certain date, it remains for some time, then there are some by-products, then there is deterioration, then it is finished. This is the material world. So you have got a body, material body, which is born at a certain date. It will continue to a certain date. It will expand, it will give some by-products, then it will be old or deteriorate, and then it will be finished. And I am identifying with this body; therefore I am thinking that I am also finished with this body. But I am not finished.

Guest: So life is the by-product of an individual?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: So it means life is a by-product . . .

Prabhupāda: Life is . . . at present moment we have got a short duration of life to fulfill a certain program. That's all. That is called karma. And when this body is finished, then you begin another chapter. That chapter may be very good or very bad, because good and bad, both things are there in the material world. There are 8,400,000's forms of life.

Just like we are a human being, but your form of life is different from his form of life; his form of life is different from his form of life. Why? Because according to my desire and karma I have got a particular type of body. Similarly, in this life also, according to the particular type of work and mentality and everything, you will get another body.

But all these lives are temporary—for a few years. That is our material condition. Everyone likes to have a permanent settlement; that is inner dictation. But nature will not allow. That is nature's law. Therefore the solution of problems means how to get out of the clutches of the material laws and come to the spiritual platform. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). So we are giving people the clue to understand the value of this life and prepare oneself in this life, so that next life we can get permanent life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest: That is why one should do good things.

Prabhupāda: Yes, definitely. If you want to be cured . . . just like if you are diseased, if you want to be cured, the physician gives you prescription, something do's and something do not's—"Do not this," and "Do this"—if you are serious about curing a disease. Similarly, if you want to cure your this material disease—material disease means birth, death, old age and disease—then you have to accept some regulative life, some do's and some do not's.

Just like we are prescribing, very simple, these students, that "You chant sixteen rounds; that's minimum—at least sixteen rounds, Hare Kṛṣṇa." It is not difficult. And you do not, don't have illicit sex life, don't have intoxication, don't have meat-eating, don't do gambling. So these are the five regulative . . . four regulative principles, and chant. Very simple. Anyone can do it. So these boys and girls, they are Europeans, Americans; from their birth they are habituated to these habits. But they have stopped, and they are not unhappy.

So our program is only very simple, but improvement is very quick and evident—that you can see. What do you think, Mr. Patel? The improvement, the world is astonished. The Americans are asking them, "Are you Americans?" They could not imagine. Even the government, they are asking, "How you have stopped intoxication? We are spending so much money for stopping intoxication, LSD." But they have given up. As soon as they come to be initiated, entering. I say: "Stop this," immediately they stop. How they can stop?

Guest: But there are people who don't take the intoxicants, neither do they smoke, neither do they do all sort of bad things, but still they follow . . . (indistinct) . . . no sex—that they follow. Where do those people stand?

Prabhupāda: You see, I said there are some do not's and several do's—so they are following both. The do's they are also following. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That will give you protection. Simply negating will not do. Just like a child, if you say: "Don't play," now, he can stop for some time, but if you don't give him some engagement and education then he will create mischief. Similarly, simply do not's will not help. You have to accept do's also, then your life will be successful. They have accepted more do not's than the do's.

So anyone who takes up this training and then he becomes purified, and as soon as he becomes purified he will successfully goes back to home, back to Godhead. You have to change your body, that's a fact, or you have to die. So after death we have got a program: home, very nice home. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): one does not come back to take birth in this material world. Then where does he go? As the atheist philosopher says, that after the destruction of this body, is everything finished? No. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: "He comes to Me."

Guest: Is it that all material things has got a beginning and an end, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Now, it means our world is material, so . . . finish

Prabhupāda: Yes, this world will all finish.

Guest: Everything will eventually end.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: And where shall we be, all the living creatures, then?

Prabhupāda: At that time?

Guest: The material world is finished.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated: prakṛtiṁ yānti māmikām (BG 9.7). Just like you are, when you are dead, your body is dead, then where do you live? You get another body. But not that immediately you get another body.

Guest: Immediately.

Prabhupāda: No, no. After end of this body you get another body.

Guest: After how long?

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said after how long, how? So the intermediate period you live somewhere—that you live in the womb of your mother, next body. Death means seven months, dreaming. That is death.

Guest: Ah. I have proof that there is a country called America already, and I have proof there is place known as India, because some patients have gone to India and back here. So they are mean the truth, to us, India. Americans have gone to America and Britain—to Britain, the United Kingdom—and they have already come back here to confirm to us that there is such a place called . . . (indistinct) . . . has it ever been proved by any people . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many, many times.

Guest: . . . that people are given new bodies and they come to the world and live?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many. Therefore you accept the statement of the authorities. Just like Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter in Bhagavad-gītā, you'll see, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This system of yoga, first of all I explained to the sun-god."

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
(BG 4.1)

So Arjuna inquired that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are born with me, You are contemporary, of the same age. How can I believe that You instructed this yoga system to the sun-god that lives in the some millions of years ago?" So Kṛṣṇa answered that "Both you and Me had many births, many births, but you have forgotten—I remember."

That is the difference between God and ordinary humans. We may forget, but God does not forget, or very highly elevated devotees of God, they also do not forget. So we get information from such persons: God, Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva, Asita—many. There are many. We get information from them. Just like you get any information. Suppose people are going to the moon planet. You read in the papers, "The American scientists, they have gone to the moon planet." So you believe it. Is it not? But you did not go there personally; how do you believe it?

Guest: Because they have been there and they can tell.

Prabhupāda: Therefore. Kṛṣṇa is personally telling, Nārada is personally telling. Where have got experience.

Guest: Kṛṣṇa died in . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . nobody dies. You do not die, I do not die, Kṛṣṇa do not die—nobody dies. But you don't remember; Kṛṣṇa remembers. That's all.

Guest: He died, and then He was born again.

Prabhupāda: Nobody dies. Why do you say "die"? I say nobody dies.

Guest: What happens?

Prabhupāda: Change body. Nobody dies. First of all try to understand this. Just like if you change your this coat. Does it mean that you die? You may appear next day with another coat. You do not die. Just like in this life you had a body of childhood body, you had the body like a boy, you had a body like a . . . so you remember all these things, but "Yes, I had this body." So that body has gone, but you are still there.

Guest: How many times does one die? How many times does one . . .?

Prabhupāda: Unless he goes back to . . . unless he becomes liberated, goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has to die, take birth, repeatedly.

Guest: So you can go . . . do you know the Christians?

Prabhupāda: Don't bring in Christian and Hindu. Talk of philosophy. We are talking of philosophy.

Guest: No, you see, it is a fact that I am dragging up, when I say: "Do you know them?" I know that you've heard of them, even if you have never associated with them. But they say that there is a place called the paradise. I never seen the place, nobody has ever seen the place.

Prabhupāda: So how do they say?

Guest: They say the world will end.

Prabhupāda: Therefore how do they say?

Guest: Unless people will be taken somewhere else.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. How do they say? How . . .? You believe them?

Guest: They say it.

Prabhupāda: But they say, but you believe them?

Guest: Well, that was the only form of worshiping that we had.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. If it is stated in Christian religion like that, where do they take the authority for such statement?

Guest: Where do they get . . .?

Prabhupāda: Just like, the same instance, just like you believe that the Americans or the Russians went to this moon planet. So how do you believe it?

Guest: I believe because somebody went there and back.

Prabhupāda: That somebody you have not met. That is a scientist, it is stated in the paper. That means by the statement of the paper you believe it, because you take the paper as authority. Is it not?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You did not go, but you read in the paper, and you take the authority of the paper; therefore you believe it.

Guest: I believe through the paper.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, we believe from the Vedas.

Guest: Now we also believe in this through the paper.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You believe through the papers; we believe through the Vedic knowledge.

Devotee: Vedas.

Brahmānanda: Scripture

Devotee: Veda.

Guest: Faith.

Devotee: No, no. Veda.

Prabhupāda: Veda, the original book of knowledge. Veda means the original book of knowledge.

Mr. Patel: Have you seen this Vedic House? Vedic House, next to Barclays Bank? There is a Vedic House, v-e-d-i-c, Vedic House. It is from that word, you know, v-e-d-a. Veda means knowledge.

Guest: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: There is authoritative Vedas that is coming, time immemorial, and the system of Vedic civilization is that if it is stated in the Vedas, we accept it. That is truth. Śruti-pramāṇa. It is called śruti. Vedas' another name is śruti. Śruti. So śruti-pramāṇa. Whenever we require any evidence, if it is stated in the Vedas . . . that example I have given several times, those who are followers of Vedas, just like cow dung. Cow dung. You understand cow dung?

Guest: Cow dan?

Prabhupāda: Cow dung!

Devotee: (translates)

Guest: Cow dung. Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is the stool of an animal. In the Vedas you will find that if you touch the stool of an animal, you become impure. Immediately you should wash. The Hindus, the Vedic followers, they do it—as soon as they touch even his own stool, goes to the toilet. And because the stool is already there in the belly, in the abdomen, but as soon as it comes out I become impure. That is Vedic system. You cannot argue. The stool is already there in the abdomen, and if it has come out, so how I become impure? But Vedas say: "Yes, you become impure. You immediately take your bath and wash your cloth." So the Vedic Indians, they are following.

Similarly, again the Veda says that if you touch the stool of the cow you become pure. Now you can argue, "How is that? Once you said that if you touch the stool of an animal—human being is also animal—you become impure. Then how you say that cow dung is pure? It is speculative contradiction."

But all Hindus, they take cow dung as pure. In the morning they'll bring cow dung and put with water and smear all over the houses, and you will find practically it starts . . . mopping with cow dung is there, even if it is very filthy place, immediately you will find refreshing. Immediately. In the village they haven't got big houses like this. They have got, I mean to say, huts, but the cleanliness is with cow dung. Is it not?

Devotee: True, yes.

Prabhupāda: So this cow dung is the stool of an animal. You can argue that "When I touch my own stool I become impure, now you say the stool of an animal, cow, that is pure?" That's a fact. We can see practically. Therefore if you want to make research, you can go on, but if you take directly knowledge from Vedas you save time. You get the thing immediately. That is Vedic knowledge.

Therefore the Vedic civilization is that whatever I say, if it is confirmed by the Vedic statement, then my word is perfect. I don't require to make research. That is the Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . Veda, Danur Veda, Yajur Veda, so many Vedas. Vedas mean knowledge, perfect knowledge. Therefore Vedic followers. What is that? Vedic House?

Mr. Patel: It's the property of Ārya-samāj.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. But the word is Vedic. So Vedic knowledge is perfect. But unfortunately we interpret Vedic knowledge. That is nonsense. If we interpret, then what is the authority of Vedas? If you want to take Vedic version by checking with your imperfect knowledge or senses, then that Vedic knowledge becomes subservient to your test. That is nonsense. Therefore we, we do not change a single word. We take it as it is. That is accepted.

The same example: Vedas says the cow dung is pure—we take it immediately, without any argument. We don't argue. What is the use of argument? It is confirmed. Vedic knowledge is perfect, whatever knowledge is given there, that is perfect, so why shall I argue? If I argue, then where is the perfection? If Vedic knowledge is depending on my test, then where is the authority? I am an imperfect person, and if Vedas have to be accepted by my imperfect test, then what is the authority of Vedas?

Guest: But then, Swāmījī, those who are ignorant, to them the question should be raised.

Prabhupāda: The ignorant . . . Veda is for the ignorant. Because we are ignorant, therefore we have to take shelter of the Vedic knowledge. That is Vedic injunction: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Just like you go to school, you take the assistance of a teacher and become educated. Similarly, you have to take the knowledge, Vedic knowledge, from the real person who has learned Vedas by the disciplic succession. That is the way. You cannot interpret. Just like we are preaching. What we are preaching? The same way, the Vedic knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says—Bhagavad-gītā is Vedic knowledge—so Kṛṣṇa says:

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja
(BG 18.66)

So what is our business? Our business is to speak the same thing. We are teaching, or propagating, asking people that, "You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa."

So we have no difficulty. But because we are speaking the same truth as it is in the Bhagavad-gītā, it has become successful. That's . . . (indistinct) . . . I have not manufactured anything. What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra? Everyone knows Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I am preaching them properly, it has became success. Just see. Within four and five years it has spread all over the world. So only technique is that I am not adulterating it. That is my credit. That's all.

And what is that credit? It is very easy. Kṛṣṇa says:

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
(BG 18.66)

I say to my disciples, "Here is Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Just surrender, and your life is successful," and they are doing that. There is nothing difficult, simply you have to take as it is. That is the authority of Vedas. As soon as you interpret, you become rascal, immediately. Then there is no effect.

Just like if a doctor says: "Take this medicine in such-and-such dose," and if you say: "No, let me add something," it will not be effective. The same way, just like I have said, you can take salt in such proportion. You cannot take more, you cannot take less. This is Vedic knowledge. You cannot interpret a single word. You have to take it as it is; then it will be effective. And it is practically being done. I am very careful not to adulterate, and that it is effective.

They are also following my instruction as it is in the Vedas. Kṛṣṇa says, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). So these four pillars of pāpaṁ, sinful life, I say: "Don't do this," then they are following. I say: "Chant", the Veda says:

harer nāma harer nāma
harer nāmaiva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva
nāsty eva gatir anyathā
(CC Adi 17.21)

I say: "Oh, you must chant. It is the injunction." That is the relationship between the spiritual master, ācārya, and the disciple. Ācārya must know what is there in the Vedic śāstra, and he personally accept it and teach to his disciples. If that is done, the work is done.

So if the ācārya is adulterated, if the student is adulterated, then it will not take place. So strictly, no other version—then you will find it effective, immediately. Just like a woman and man, sexual intercourse. If the man is powerful, he has got real strength, there is pregnancy. And if the woman is not . . . (indistinct) . . . there is pregnancy.

Similarly, if the student and the master is pure and his instruction is pure, then there will be effect. There is no jugglery or magic. They say: "Swāmījī, you have done magic," but I have not done anything magic. My magic is that I am presenting things as it is, and they are being accepted as it is, and it is being effective. There is no secret; it is open secret. Simply you have to take strictly, according to the principles. Then it will be effective.

Guest: And therefore there is no question about the result?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: And therefore there will be no question . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Vedic knowledge. In Āyurveda, Āyurveda also, that I have . . . (indistinct) . . . studied, the system is that their basic principle of treatment is three elements: kapha, pitta, vāyu. The . . . within this body, these things are working. When they are working in parallel line, in order, there is no disease; there cannot be any disease—neutral state.

As soon as kapha, pitta, vāyu becomes increased, one's balance, then there are diseases. So that can be understood, that their only technique is to study this pulse-beating. Therefore symptoms. If the pulse is beating like this, then it is due to increase of kapha; if the pulse is beating like this . . . that is their science.

So even in these days if you go to an experienced Āyurvedic physician, he will take half an hour at least to study how your pulse is beating. Nari-jña it is called. And immediately he gives the pulse-beating to a formula. The formula: if the pulse is beating like this, then this is the disease, and this is the symptom. So immediately, according to that formula, he asks, "Do you get the symptom?" "Yes." "Do you get this? You do not like this?" "Yes." That is kapha. And immediately medicine is ready. For this symptom, this medicine give him. That is Āyurvedic system.

So in Āyurvedic system there is no experiment, there is no dissection, you see? There is no irregularities or blind . . . (indistinct) . . . so many . . . (indistinct) . . . experiment. Simply external. There is no big studies. And here, how the matter is simplified—simply you try to study the pulse-beating, and the symptoms are stated in this . . . similarly, you are doing this.

But we understand from the Vedic knowledge that anyone who is sinfully attracted, he cannot have any God-realization. So how do you make him . . . (indistinct) . . .? Veda says, striyaḥ sūnā pāna dyūta yatrā pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). Sinful life means these four things: illicit sex-life, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā.

These four kinds of sinful life is the pillars of all sinful life, and if you make a study that all sinful activities are going on on these four pillars: illicit sex life, gambling, meat-eating and intoxication. When you become too much intoxicated, habituated to intoxicants, you don't, I mean to say, fear to become a thief, steal others' property. More and more you become implicated. The beginning is these things. So if you avoid these, then your sinful life is stopped, and as soon as your sinful life is stopped, you can realize God, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28).

So we have got very simple formula in the Vedic knowledge. People should simply agree to accept this; then their life is successful. That's all. But they do not agree, what can I do? So our business is . . .

Guest: The difficulty . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: They recall their difficulty.

Prabhupāda: There is nothing difficult.

Guest: Those who are . . .

Prabhupāda: Then what they have got, this birth by . . . (indistinct) . . .? You are thinking "difficult", what is difficult? But giving up meat-eating, what is the difficulty?

Guest: Some of the rules are rather difficult, you know.

Prabhupāda: It is thinking. Because that is māyā. You are thinking difficult. It is not at all difficult. How these boys, they gave up? Illicit sex-life was their life, in Europe and America, from the very childhood. How they are giving up?

Guest: Something for them, you know, the hidden pleasures, in taking . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you like you can give it up. That's possible. And that giving up, that status you can maintain if you do the do's. Chant—that will protect you. Both things. So the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . .

(aside) Aiye . . . is very simple, very, very simple, and there is no difficulty at all. Simply one must agree.

(aside) Aiye.

Guest: It is true. But to start with . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the process, sat-saṅga. Therefore we are opening centers. You come to our association, like these boys. First of all they are not asked that, "You have to do this." No. If I ask, how they will do? No. If they come, that is also very nice process. If you simply come—you don't do this, simply go on hearing—you will be God conscious. But you do not come, you see? People are not coming. That means they have no meaning left.

Guest: No, they don't want to do away with their old . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then if you need . . . if you don't want to do something, that is another thing. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says:

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
(BG 7.3)

Out of many thousands and millions of people, one becomes interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not an ordinary thing.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ
(BG 7.3)

It is difficult, very difficult, but one intelligent person, although he knows it is very difficult: "Why not try?" And that is intelligence.

What is the difficulty? Are they starving because they are not eating meat? We are giving them better food—kachorī, lucī, sandeśa, sweet balls, samosā and khicuṛi (devotees laugh)—anyone who comes, "Oh, it is very nice!" What is the loss there? Now here is a brahmacārī, here is a gṛhastha, here is a sannyāsa.

According to suitability you can remain a brahmacārī or you can become a sannyāsa or you remain a gṛhastha. There is no such that "You have to become a sannyāsī." No. You remain a gṛhastha, but don't spoil your life. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, you follow the rules and regulations of gṛhastha life, you become perfect.

So for everyone there is chance, and it is not that . . . because according to Vedic system there are four castes: brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and lower than the śūdras, pañcama. So it is not prohibited for anyone. I mean anyone can take—the brāhmin can take, the śūdra can take, the others who are less than śūdra, they can take.

kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā
ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ
ye 'nye ca pāpā yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ
(SB 2.4.18)

So the door is open for everyone. The matter is very simple. Simply you have to take it and become successful in your life. And the knowledge is perfect, from the Vedas, now it is up to you. You take it or don't take it, that is your business.

So I am requesting you, you remain interested; instead of arguing continually, you please take to this business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasāda. Is that very difficult?

Guest: Not necessarily. One can try. I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: We are inviting come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dance and take prasādam. That is also difficult, then what can be done? They are chanting, dancing—that's a pleasure—and after that, taking prasādam, that is another pleasure. That is also difficult, then what can be done?

Guest: That's why there is no suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then you must suffer. That is a fact. If there is dancing in the ball-dance hall, thousands of people will go. But this dancing, nobody will come. That is māyā. Māyā dictates, "Oh, why you are going there? There is ball dance. Dance there." So we have to little protect ourselves from the dictation of māyā.

That will also give strength. Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 4.11): if you become a little strong and determined, "No, no, I shall not go to the ball dance, I shall go to the Kṛṣṇa conscious dance," then your life is successful. That much determination you must have. That is up to you.

And we are distributing this knowledge free. Such topmost knowledge, we are distributing free, don't charge. What is the loss? Suppose I ask you: "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds," it is very easy. So if you chant sixteen rounds Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, what is your loss? But if there is gain, why don't you take it?

There is a story that an old woman was dying, and her son said: "Mother, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So when they were repeating, "Mother, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," so she becomes disgusted, "Why? I cannot say so many words." "I cannot say so many words . . ."

Guest: That she is already saying.

Prabhupāda: . . . but not "Hare Kṛṣṇa." You see? There are four words only, Hare, Kṛṣṇa; two words. "Oh, I cannot say all in all." This is our position. We can waste our time in so many ways, but if I say to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds, you'll disagree: "Oh, I cannot do it." This is our misfortune. So we have to become a little strong: "Yes, I must. I must." Then . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your loss? So that is our requirement, that:

harer nāma harer nāma
harer nāmaiva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva
nāsty eva gatir anyathā
(CC Adi 17.21)

Very simple method. They will try to press the nose, to make the head down and make yoga, and he becomes God within six months—these cheating, these rascals are very . . . (indistinct) . . . and simple thing, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds, they will not accept. What can be done?

And the result is there. They are Americans; what they want? That is a country of dollars. Earn ten dollars, fifteen dollars, twenty-five dollars—so that is nothing in this country. Daily they can spend, even in one hour, they are so rich. Anyone can earn thousands of rupees in our Indian exchange.

Just like their lowest guarantee, four hundred dollars. So four hundred dollars in Indian exchange, four thousand rupees. So one who is making four thousand rupees per month, he is a rich man. And in America that is the lowest, that is the lowest, for the poorest man. And they are earning fifty thousand, twenty thousand, twenty-five thousand. So money is nothing.

So they have got enough money, they have got enough women, they have got enough wine, enough slaughterhouse—but they are disgusted. Now the young boys and girls, they have become hippies, frustration. They think that there is no life. So if we imitate only on these four principles—enough woman, enough intoxication, enough meat-eating, enough gambling—you pay, because you have already paid. It is a fact.

Now it has become a problem; so many young men, they have become hippies, they are not working at all. You see? The government, without finding any other jobs, they have created this Vietnam—they are killing the boys. That's all. The Vietnam show is for killing these poor boys, that's all. They call draft, "Come on you go to war." But, they cannot check; they have no means. And here is the means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Therefore they are taking.

So you are growing nation. If you grow like the Americans and Europeans you will never be happy. You take this culture, you will be happy. That is the open secret. Nobody has become happy with this material advancement. So we do not check material advancement, but we simply want to change the consciousness. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Just like Arjuna, he was not stopped fighting. That is material. But his consciousness was changed. We wanted that. We do in that way. You do material advancement, but change your consciousness. That is our movement. Do not stop. Arjuna . . . Kṛṣṇa never advised Arjuna, "Oh, you take sannyāsa and go to the Himalaya and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." No. That is not our program. You do. You are Professor.

sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ
(BG 18.45)

You remain engaged in your occupational duties but be Kṛṣṇa conscious, sve karmaṇa, by your duty. Then you will get saṁsiddhiṁ, the highest perfection. He never said that "You stop your business, stop your profession, and go to Himalaya." No. He simply says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then all the kind . . . (indistinct) . . . picture, where it was?

Śyāmasundara: New Yorker Magazine?

Prabhupāda: Somewhere else. One old gentleman and old lady, the old lady requesting her husband: "Chant, chant, chant," and the old man is saying, "Can't, can't, can't." (laughter) This is the position. We are simply asking people, "Chant, chant, chant," and they are replying, "Can't, can't, can't." This is the rascaldom. If you simply say: "Yes, yes, yes," then everything, the whole thing will be saved. But they will not take it. They will say: "Can't, can't, can't."

Guest: Swāmījī, what sort of power is in chanting the name, because . . .

Prabhupāda: We associate with God.

Guest: . . . but is it not that if you follow these actions, that is much more strong.

Prabhupāda: What is that action? You are fools, rascals—what is your action? Now who is stronger? What is your action? What is the value of your action? Just like these children: what is the value of their action? They are simply to be protected from doing mischievous activities. If you are in knowledge . . . if you do not know the value of your life, what is the value of your activities?

Guest: There could be majority, the mass of people who might be chanting the name, but if they don't know what they are chanting for, then . . .

Prabhupāda: That they will know everything. They are simply chanting—sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Do you mean to say they are fools because they are chanting?

Guest: No, but they are educated; they know . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Educated or not educated, you may not . . . even one is not educated, he has no other business. That is the effect. Vedas says. Then you have to go to the Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3): if you know the Supreme Absolute Truth, then everything becomes revealed to you.

We are challenging so many philosophers, so many scientists. Does it mean that I was a student of science? No. But we can challenge, because the knowledge is revealed. Just like I told . . . (indistinct) . . . some reporter came to me, asked me: "Swāmījī, what is your opinion about this moon planet going?" I said, "It is simply waste of time and nonsense."

I asked them, "Shall I speak plain, or shall I flatter you?" They said, "No, we speak plain." I said: "It is simply a waste of time and nonsense." So I'm not a scientist; how could I say? How could I say? On the Vedic knowledge. Vedic version is, and Bhagavad-gītā you will see:

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
(BG 9.25)

The moon planet is considered one of the planets of the demigods, so you have to become a devotee of that demigod or cultivate that knowledge. You hear, then you will get the body to be transferred in that planet. You cannot go in this body. Now how you can refute this argument? We get knowledge that unless they have trained themselves how to go to the moon planet, they cannot go. We take it. So therefore how much they may . . . how hard they may try to go there, they cannot go. How can I say? On the Vedic strength. We are not trained up.

Just like one can see, suppose one African is trying to go to India or, say, UK. So if I see that he has not passport, he has not got passport and visa, then I can immediately, "No, you cannot go." There is no necessity of knowledge how I say. I say: "Because he has no passport and visa, he cannot go."

Similarly, from the Vedic knowledge we understand unless one becomes a devotee of that particular type of demigod, he cannot go. Therefore we can say: "You cannot go." However they may try with this machine, that is not possible. This is perfect knowledge. I am not a scientist; I am not criticizing the scientific process. But because I know that the Veda says that they cannot go, I say: "You cannot go."

Now Veda says they cannot go, now we challenge. And so let the scientist come and prove. That is Vedic knowledge. Let them go. Now they are silent. By making so much false propaganda, now they are silent. They cannot go in this way, machine. You cannot go to America by force, by your machine. You have to take the visa, immigration visa. So how can you go to the moon planet? We get from the Vedic knowledge that in moon planet one gets ten thousand of years' life. And that planet is very cold. They drink soma-rasa. They . . . all the Vedic scriptures.

So on the Vedic scriptural strength we can challenge anyone. Therefore the Vedic knowledge says, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati: if you simply understand the Absolute Truth, then you become . . . you know everything.

Guest: Do you think that they have ever been to the moon now?

Prabhupāda: Never! I challenge them. This is simply all propaganda. If they had been, then what they have gained? Why they do not go and make some business there?

Guest: At the moment . . .

Prabhupāda: They have brought some rocks and sand, that's all. Why they say there is no life? If the planet is there, we find that in experience that even within the earth there is living entity, within the water there is living entity, in the air there is living entity. And what moon planet has done there is no living entity? What is your answer?

Although they have got some sands and rocks, the sands and rocks are there, and there is no living entity? How it is possible? By experience we see here, sands and rocks are there, but there are living entities; and there you have got sands and rocks but there is no living entities. First of all answer this challenge.

And we get information from Vedic literature that there are demigods, they are very highly elevated, intellectual persons, they live for ten thousands of years. And these people say there is no life. Therefore we don't believe it. First of all show within your experience. Go anywhere—even in the desert there is living entity. (aside) What you are thinking?

Devotee: I think that we should . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: . . . for distribution.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: For me go to the . . . (indistinct) . . . so there are many reasons, you see. If you study, if you accept the Vedic conclusion, you save so much time, so much time, and you get the right information. And that is perfection. So chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra means associating with God directly.

So we are associating with God, then we become purified. Just like if you associate with fire you become warm, gradually, this is the example. You put one iron rod in the fire, it is warmer and warmer and warmer, and then it is red-hot, and when it is red-hot it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. You touch that iron rod anywhere, it will burn.

Similarly, if you associate with God, then you become godly, you become purified. And the matter is so simple. The Vedic śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer . . . three times stating, "It is this, it is this, it is this."

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva
nāsty eva gatir anyathā
(CC Adi 17.21)

If you follow the Vedic instruction you will get success, without arguing. And what is the difficulty there?

Guest: There's no difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Then why there is argument? Why not try it? Such a simple method that even a child can do. If this child is asked: "You chant," she will chant directly. Such a yoga system that can be accepted by child even. And the Vedic knowledge says: "There is no other way, no other way, no other way." Why not take it? Why this obstinacy? That is our misfortune.

Our program is very simple: come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and dance with us. Even if you don't dance, take little prasādam, go away. Why there is so much objection to this? We don't ask anything, that "You pay here fifty dollars, and press your nose and make your hand and do that, so many." So what is the difficulty? We don't charge anything. Just try the method . . . (indistinct) . . . boli. Why there is objection? Just so you answer this, that why there is objection? This simple method, this sublime method, why there is objection?

Guest: Can I tell you what I think?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Because there are so many institutions, there are so many sects, so many religious, I mean, erm . . .

Prabhupāda: But here there is no religion, there is no sect. We call Indian, we call European, American, African, brahmin, kṣatriya, śūdra. At least here there is no sect. Why you are bringing "sects"?

Guest: No, but at the moment . . .

Prabhupāda: There may be so many rascals; that is another thing. Here there is no rascaldom. Here is taught that anyone, you are welcome. Where is the question of "sects" or "religion"?

Guest: No, not over here, but I am telling . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't bring in so many things. But why you are . . .

Guest: Unless they are convinced or unless they see why . . .

Prabhupāda: What are the convictions? What is the conviction? You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the necessity of convictions?

Guest: No, but there might be a ṛṣi . . . (indistinct) . . . there might be so many people telling them . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is misfortune only, that's all.

Guest: They'll know the difference how the real faith, the real . . .

Prabhupāda: The difference is already there, but they are rascals; they do not know. It is stated very clear in the Vedic knowledge, in the Bhagavad-gītā, that:

kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ
prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ
(BG 7.20)

Those who worship other demigods, they are rascals, hṛta-jñānāḥ. That is clearly stated. So if you want to remain rascal, how I can be faulted? Hṛta-jñānāḥ. Because what does it mean, hṛta-jñānāḥ? You know the Sanskrit?

Guest: Little bit

Prabhupāda: Yes, hṛta-jñānāḥ means one who has lost his intelligence. That means he's a rascal. This is clearly stated:

kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ
prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ
antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ
tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām
(BG 7.23)

Even if you get result, results from the demigods, it is antava: it will be finished. It will be finished. Tad bhavaty al . . . therefore people who are alpa-medhasām, less intelligent, they are satisfied with some temporary purpose, that's all. Now there is a . . . it is going on, Navaratri, Durgā. That's all right. Durgā will pay, dhanaṁ dehi vimukti bharyam dehi yaśo dehi rūpaṁ. All right, Goddess Durgā gives you. But how long you will enjoy this?

As soon as your body is finished, your beautiful wife, your money, your friend, everything's finished. Therefore, alpa-medhasām: less intelligent. Their brain substance is very small, therefore they are after these things. The problem is eternal life. These are all clearly stated. But you don't accept the Vedas. That is the difficulty.

Guest: Because they have not been preached in the true sense.

Prabhupāda: If you want to remain here preaching, they are not coming; they are accepting.

Guest: They will come.

Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. We have come out to preach.

Guest: People will come . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: . . . once they know. Because now they have become, what you call, they have reached to the saturated point. They have saturated. So many beggars . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata-dharma is the beginning. In the Bhāgavata it is stated, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). You read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anything is that is going on in the name of religion, but it is simply cheating, that is thrown out. That also you cannot do properly at the present moment. Deva-pūjā, pūjayā, yajña, described in the śāstras, you cannot do. That is also simply humbug. There are so many rules and regulations for performing yajña; you cannot . . . therefore it is said:

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva
nāsty eva gatir anyathā
(CC Adi 17.21)

You cannot do it properly. Suppose you perform yajña. So where is the pure ghee, and so many tons? So what is the use of putting three . . . (indistinct) . . . of ghee and performing yajña? People are so . . . because they want to be cheated, and they are cheated by the cheaters. That is the position. They want to be cheated. What can be done? If the cheaters see there is a very good market of being cheated, they will come: "Yes, I am God. I will make you God," and this and that. So these things should be stopped, and it should be taken:

harer nāma harer nāma
harer nāmaiva kevalam
(CC Adi 17.21)

Any . . . (indistinct) . . . simple thing. (break)

(indistinct Hindi)

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
notpādayed yadi ratiṁ
śrama eva hi kevalam
(SB 1.2.8)

Whatever your religion is, that's all right. By performing it very nicely, if you do not develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness, it is simply waste of time. Yes. Yes. So if you go, kindly help us. (break) . . . interpretation, so many ways, yet they are speaking nonsense. And therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Somebody says it is yogic bhakar, somebody it is jñānic bhakar, this bhakar, that bhakar.

Guest: And then they become difficult to follow which one to follow, and so they become so much confused. So they are . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. People, people should know that . . . they should be little intelligent. Therefore without being intelligent you cannot make progress. Ignorance is the cause of all difficulties. So Bhagavad-gītā, if you have read Bhagavad-gītā, it is said there that Bhagavad-gītā is being preached to Arjuna, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I am teaching this Bhagavad-gītā again.

Although I taught this philosophy to the sun-god so many millions of years ago, again I am teaching the same to you." "Why? To me? There are so many others." He says: "No," bhakto 'si, "because you are My devotee." Now how one can understand Bhagavad-gītā who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa?

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What right you have got? He means to preach this philosophy to the devotees. How the non-devotees, they can understand? They do not understand Bhagavad-gītā, still they write commentary. Suppose I am a preacher of spiritual subject matter, and Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he is a goldsmith. So if I write on a book on goldsmith, what is the value of this book? Is there any value? So Bhagavad-gītā is meant for devotee. Why the other rascals write on commentation? Simply waste their time and mislead others. This is going on.

Guest: The same thing has happened here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere it is happening, the whole world over. We are touring all over the world, simply people are being cheated. And they want to be cheated.

Guest: And now if you bring truth in front of them, still they will say that . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . . what can be done?

(break)

Guest: . . . thinking that people will come here, we might have to go to them, you know, expecting them here.

Prabhupāda: Well, we can do any way . . . (break) (end)