Please join, like or share our Vanipedia Facebook Group
Go to Vaniquotes | Go to Vanipedia| Go to Vanimedia


Vanisource - the complete essence of Vedic knowledge

Philosophy Discussion on William James

From Vanisource

Philosophy Discussion on William James - 01:29:53 Minutes


JAMES.SYA
William James
William James (1842 - 1910)

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing American philosopher William James. His philosophy is called pragmatism, or that which can be practically applied. The central thesis of his philosophy is that the whole function of thought is to produce habits of action. In other words, he was tired of theoretical philosophy, and he wanted to see that philosophy had practical application.

Prabhupāda: So philosophy without practical application is called mental speculation. It has no value. We agree to that. Philosophy must be practically applied in life. That is real philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is a question, "What difference would it make, practically, to anyone, if this notion rather than that notion were true?" He says that the criterion for deciding that question is the practicality of something. If there are two questions, two notions, then the standard of judgment should be which notion is applicable in practice.

Prabhupāda: Which notion should be...?

Śyāmasundara: Which notion will have the better result in practice.

Prabhupāda: Which is factual, not theoretical - that will have good effect in practice. What is his example?

Śyāmasundara: There is no example given, but for instance, if there are two different theories involving a subject, then that theory which is more easily practiced is more true. It has become part of our experience; that is true. He says that anything that is meaningful or real must have some influence on practice on our experience, and vice verse. Anything that is practiced must be meaningful or real.

Prabhupāda: So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have invited our students, and when they actually practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the result is immediately there. Just like you all European and American boys, you were eating meat, and other things were practiced, but since you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you have left it. So by practicing, we see the practical result; therefore this is most practical.

Śyāmasundara: What about, for instance, people who are practicing sense gratification, and they find it very practical to gratify their senses. Does this mean that it is meaningful or real?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is real. But by sense gratification we will gradually glide down to the hellish condition of life. Therefore sense gratification should not be allowed unrestricted. That is practical. If you eat more, you suffer from indigestion. If you have more sex life, then you get tuberculosis. This is practical. If you indulge in intoxication, then gradually you become a nonsense, crazy. Therefore when we say that "Don't do this," this is practical.

Śyāmasundara: So it is a matter of degree which is more practical than something else. Sense gratification or communism or any other "ism," it's practiced (indistinct) effect, but that effect...

Prabhupāda: But if it has bad effect then what is the use of it? It must have good effect. Effect must be there, but if it is bad, that is not practical. The effect must be good and continuous.

Viśāla: But that good result is relative, depending upon who is deciding whether it is good. In other words, Lenin or Mao, they feel that the practical result of their philosophy is good.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but now Mao disagrees with the practical utility of Russian philosophy. So where is the stability? And similarly, the Russians don't agree with the Chinese, so what is practical for China is not practical for the Russians. So which one we shall take?

Viśāla: That which is practical for both.

Prabhupāda: That means both of them are not practical. It will be proved in due course of time.

Śyāmasundara: He says that terms such as "God" and "matter" and "absolute" and terms like that must have cash value or practical worth. He says, "You must bring out of each work its practical cash value."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement daily brings cash value without any business, without any labor. What do you think?

Viśāla: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Viśāla knows very well.

Śyāmasundara: So when we use the word "God," it has cash value?

Prabhupāda: Cash value. We are going to everyone, we are simply showing some book and taking (indistinct). You can say, somebody may say, you are giving books worth $200 and taking $1,100...

Śyāmasundara: I think this may be one reason why Kṛṣṇa consciousness is thriving in America, because this is a typically American idea, that everything must have a cash value or it is useless.

Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has cash value. Even in Los Angeles, outsiders, they are surprised: "How these people live in such a nice house, eat such nicely, and have so many cars, and they have no anxieties, although they do not work, they have no business?" So what can be more cash value than this?

Devotee: And no bills for psychoanalysis.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is there, but still they do not work, and these rascals, they work the whole day and night, and still they are not happy. What more cash value we can expect than Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Śyāmasundara: He says theories must become instruments, and not just answers to questions which we rest upon. They must become instruments.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Theory is instrument. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, about the nature of truth, that truth is more than just an agreement of idea with reality, but it also has a practical significance, that whatever is practical is true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Practical we can see from the verse of Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, that anyone who has got a slight merciful glance of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he thinks that Brahman liberation is as good as hell. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. And the heavenly planets, they are phantasmagoria, and yoga-siddhi, that is not a very important thing. And people are suffering on this material condition. (But] for a devotee it is simply pleasing. Everywhere he goes he feels pleased, while others seeing full of anxiety. Devotees, they are seeing everything pleasing. So these things happen simply by a fragment of the merciful glance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu upon His devotees. Viśvaṁ pūrṇam, they do not care for any big scholar or many exalted personalities, just like we challenge anyone, even we don't care for Dr. Radhakrishnan, who is so much exalted. So this is practical. Because one has become Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore these things happen. (to guest:] Please sit down. (Bengali)

Śyāmasundara: His idea of truth is that truth means experience.

Prabhupāda: That is our proposal. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means one who advances in bhakti, he becomes..., he has no more any taste for material enjoyment. The more one increases in bhakti cult, he decreases his tendency for material enjoyment. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra. Unless one becomes detestful for material things, it is to be understood that he is not making progress. This is practical. The example is given just like a hungry man: when he eats, he feels, as he goes on eating, proportionately he feels satisfaction and strength of (indistinct). Similarly, one who is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will feel spiritually strong and no taste for material enjoyment. This is practical.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that truth is created in the same manner as health and wealth are created.

Prabhupāda: Truth is not created. Health can be created, but truth is existing always. It is not created.

Śyāmasundara: He sees that truth is developing in the same way as...

Prabhupāda: Truth is not developing, but you are gradually progressing towards truth. Truth is not developing. Just like the sun is not developing, but as the clouds disappear, you are developing your sight to see the sun. That's all. The sun is not developing. The sun is there in its position.

Śyāmasundara: He calls truth a system of verification; in other words, a process whereby ideas become true and they are made true by events in our experience. As we get more experience, then truth is created.

Prabhupāda: Not created. Truth is there. Truth is revealed. As you make progress, so the truth becomes revealed. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "As one makes his surrendering process complete, I become revealed to him accordingly."

Śyāmasundara: But if an idea works when it is applied to concrete facts of experience, then it becomes a true idea, and we accept it as a true idea. So as we develop our experience, our life progresses, then we develop truth because we see that this idea works in my experience, so then it becomes true. Is this not the process?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our process. Just like one enters to Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the beginning by faith. He has no practical experience. But suppose somebody sees that "These people, Kṛṣṇa conscious people, appear to be very bright-faced," just like in your country they may have been known, the bright-faced. So he gets a little interest. So that interest increases. First of all he comes with little faith and interest, but as he associates with us, the interest increases. That is true. Otherwise why are they sticking?

Śyāmasundara: His experience proves that the ideas are true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, how you European and American boys, you are satisfied with the shirt only? Where is your necktie, coat and boot and everything?

Śyāmasundara: Because their idea doesn't have practical value for us.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) You are practically realizing that a simple life is better than this artificial way of life. So that is true.

Śyāmasundara: But to a businessman a shirt, and a coat and a tie, they have practical value.

Prabhupāda: Practical value is all right. When you go to take some business, then you must satisfy him. Not that I require, but because I am going to get some business from a person, so I have to satisfy him. The Indian word is abruci khana phalusi pay na. When you go to meet somebody, so you must dress yourself so that your dress may attract. So dress is not required for you, but because you are going to attract some person, then you may dress like a gentleman. But when you eat yourself, Kṛṣṇa prasāda, you don't require to constantly think (indistinct) whether he'll be pleased or not. That doesn't require. This is practical.

Śyāmasundara: The idea is that the suit and the coat are practical for the businessman, and the...

Prabhupāda: Business, that is socially required. If you, of course... In our Bengali it is called jana bahune pohite dakhane. If a man is known a brāhmaṇa, he doesn't require to show his sacred thread. Just like our Kṛṣṇa conscious men, gradually people are understanding our philosophy, so even if we go in this dress, they honor us. But for ordinary things, if you go in this dress, it will not attract them.

Śyāmasundara: One thing that puzzles me is if what is practical for one person is not practical for another person, then what is the criterion of truth? Is truth relative? This is true for me but it is not true for you. This isn't true for him but it is...

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are relative truths. But for the Absolute Truth... There is Absolute Truth and relative truth. So first of all we have to see in which you are interested - Absolute Truth or relative truth. That is to be understood. There are two kinds of truth.

Śyāmasundara: So if the result of the businessman is to make some money for his use, and our purpose of doing business is also to make some money for another use, so then it is a question of what the use, what is the practical...

Prabhupāda: As far as pushing on your Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, just like constructing this big building, you require some money. So if you go somewhere to take that money, you must please him; otherwise you cannot get money. But his pleasing that man is not the ultimate goal. Ultimate goal is to please Kṛṣṇa. But for pleasing Kṛṣṇa, this is a temporary method I have accepted, just to please Him.

Śyāmasundara: What about the businessman who goes to please that man for his...

Prabhupāda: When a businessman goes to please somebody, he wants the money for himself. That is the difference. But when we go to please somebody, to get some money, our ultimate aim is to please Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth. Therefore the means adopted, even if it is relative truth, that becomes Absolute Truth. The end justifies the means. Because the means is adopted, just like Kṛṣṇa advises Arjuna, "Just go and tell Droṇācārya that his son is dead," although his son was not dead. So this is not truth. But because by that action Kṛṣṇa will be pleased - Kṛṣṇa is Absolute Truth-therefore even that lying is also absolute.

Śyāmasundara: So practicality has to be judged on the result, what is the result of that action?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is that the end justifies the means. Means is not very important. What is the end, we have to see.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, James uses the example of God. Whether God exists depends on the extent to which a belief in God affects my life. In other words if it is practical, if it makes me feel happy, if I get some courage and strength by believing in God, then God is true, then God does exist.

Prabhupāda: So one may not feel like that, that means that God does not exist? Suppose one man does not feel very good talking about God. That means God is null and void?

Śyāmasundara: According to James's philosophy...

Prabhupāda: That means he is an atheist. He's a godless.

Śyāmasundara: He considers himself to be a religious man.

Prabhupāda: Considers... He has no idea of God. What kind of a religious man he is? We say he is a nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: In other words, truth is relative, according to him.

Prabhupāda: No. Truth is not relative. Your position is relative. So long you are under the clutches of māyā, your understanding of God is relative. God is not relative. God is absolute. You cannot understand God. Your position is relative. Just like, I will give you a practical example: a man is deaf and he is calling wife, "Mrs. such and such, such and such." She is replying, "Yes. I am coming." But he himself is deaf. He cannot hear the wife is replying. So he is accusing his wife, "Mrs. such and such is very deaf; she cannot hear." She is hearing; she is replying. This rascal cannot hear; therefore she becomes deaf. This is an example. So I cannot understand what is God - therefore there is no God. This is the most rascal position. I cannot see at night the sun-therefore there is no sun. He does not understand that "I am in darkness at night, so there is no possibility of my seeing." He has no such knowledge. But he concludes there is not sun. That is rascaldom.

Śyāmasundara: I think he would say that a belief in God would...

Prabhupāda: It is not belief. You believe or not believe, God is there.

Śyāmasundara: But he would say that...

Prabhupāda: And that word is another nonsense expression. You believe in God, you don't believe, what does it matter for God?

Śyāmasundara: But I think he would say that if everyone who believes in God gets some strength, some happiness, some courage, so that it would benefit everyone to believe in God...

Prabhupāda: But he does not get any strength by it, does it mean God is not there?

Śyāmasundara: But doesn't everyone derive strength?

Prabhupāda: No. Somebody, he thinks, "By drinking I get strength." There are many men in Bowery Street in your country. So, just like, why these drunkards? I'll give you a practical example. When long ago when Mahatma Gandhi came in Calcutta, so some of the Gauḍīya Math men went to invite him, "Mahatma Gandhi, please come to our temple." At that time charkha was very prominent.

Śyāmasundara: What is that?

Prabhupāda: Charkha, the, what is called? Spinning wheel.

Śyāmasundara: Spinning wheel.

Prabhupāda: Spinning wheel, yes. Gandhi was himself devoting, just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he thought that you spin. So he first of all inquired whether in your temple you spin this charkha. They replied, "No, sir. We worship Kṛṣṇa, God, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is our regular routine work." Gandhi replied, "Oh, then I am not going to your temple. My charkha is my God." He said that. And actually, for him, charkha was God in this sense: by introducing charkha the whole Manchester closed. You see? And the British Empire half broken, simply by killing this Manchester industry. So many mills they closed. But later on the, (laughs) Manchester came to Ahmedabad. Now when we are taking supplies from Manchester, we are getting cloth, one rupee 8 annas per pair, now we have to pay twenty-five rupees per pair.

Śyāmasundara: For dhotīs?

Prabhupāda: Dhotīs, yes. In our childhood we have seen that Manchester made cloth, first class. One dhotī was selling (indistinct), that was selling like hotcake, imported by Rally Brothers. Very nice cloth - one rupee 8 annas per pair, two, two pieces. But the same dhotī you have to purchase at twenty-five. So the consumer's money is now going to Ahmedabad. You may say your money is saved in your country, but my pocket is empty. (laughs) It is saved in my country, that's all right - in the state bank. That's all right. But my pocket is empty.

Śyāmasundara: And Mafatlal's pocket is full.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is going on.

Śyāmasundara: He says that a person's philosophical attitude will depend upon the individual's personality. Different personalities naturally have a different philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Philosophy without any fact is mental speculation. What is the value of such philosophy? He has already practical value. According to person, your mentality, your personality may not agree with me. Then you have got different philosophy. And what is the practical use?

Devotee: This seems to have a similarity to the divisions of faith according to the three guṇas.

Prabhupāda: No. The philosophy is not faith. Faith is a different thing, and fact is different thing. Philosophy must be on the fact, not on faith. Faith may be blind faith. That is different thing.

Śyāmasundara: So he says we seek a universe which is appropriate to our predispositions. If we have a certain inclination we automatically seek to piece together the universe according to our, the way we see things, our perspective.

Prabhupāda: What is that, seeing?

Śyāmasundara: So that people who think differently about things, who have different inclinations and abilities, different perspectives, they will automatically see the world or the universe in a different manner.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: They will have different philosophies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that does not prove the fact. Different men have got different ideas of peace, that does not mean that is peace. Peace is a different thing. Peace is that which applies to everyone. That is peace. Not that because I think by drinking I shall be peaceful, therefore drinking is peace. No. And somebody thinks, "By doing this thing, I'll feel peaceful." No. There must be a standard of peace which will be applicable to everyone. That is real peace. We are talking of that peace.

Śyāmasundara: He sees that there are two basic or fundamental philosophical temperaments. The one he calls tendermindedness, which is exemplified by the rationalist, the idealist, the optimist, the religionist, and the dogmatist; and toughmindedness, or the empiricist, the materialist, the pessimist, the irreligious, the fatalist and the skeptic. He says that philosophers are of two types: tender minded and tough minded.

Prabhupāda: So this depends upon one's education. If one is educated, in one way he may become tender, and another man, if he is educated in a different way, he may be hard. But our proposition is that originally the soul is good. This tenderness and hardness, they are developed later on. But they are not standard. When you come to the platform of soul, there everything is good. In that platform, either tenderness or hardness, both of them are in the absolute. So our philosophy is that, as we understand from Bhagavad-gītā, that every living entity is part and parcel of God. So God is good, pavitra. Just like Arjuna accepts, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). Pavitra means pure. But because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we are pure. The impurities are acquired by our contamination with this material world. So either you become tender or hard - that is impurity of this material world. So we don't give any credit to any person, either he is tender or hard. These are all material qualifications. When he is spiritually placed, then we give him, that he is now liberated, either from tenderness or from hardness. These are all material qualifications. One is hard, one is tender. So that is our material quality. Just like a disease. One is suffering from headache, one is suffering from indigestion, or one is suffering from fever. So one who is suffering from headache, he is thinking, "Instead of having a headache, if I would have suffered from indigestion it was better." You see? And the man who is suffering from indigestion, passing stool every three minutes, he is thinking that "If I would have suffered from headache instead of this nasty disease, I would have been all right." So these rascaldom, either tenderness or something, it is the same thing. It is our mental concoction that he thinks this is a better disease. It is not better. It is bad. Therefore it is explained by Caitanya-caritāmṛta, 'dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali saman, ei bhalo ei manda sab more ghara. 'Dvaite: when you are contaminated, diseased... I will give you one... I heard from one of my medical practitioners friend. So he told me that when he was a student in Calcutta there was a big professor, Colonel Megha, English professor. He was lecturing, and with in talking he said that in our country that seventy-eight percent of the students are infected with syphilis. Yes. So the doctor said as soon as he heard from Professor Megha, he said, "Horrible." And the doctor said, "Why you are saying horrible? In your country ninety-nine percent are suffering from malaria. So as a doctor you should take the disease. Why do you think that this is a horrible and this is not horrible? You are thinking that malaria is not horrible; syphilis is horrible. But in our country we think syphilis is not horrible and malaria is horrible. So as a medical practitioner you should consider the disease, not the aftereffects. Aftereffects of all diseases is suffering, either it is malaria or it is syphilis." So we should be concerned that this soul, pure soul, is affected by these sattva, rajas, tamaguṇa, material modes of nature, and he is suffering. So he should be given relief from this suffering, not that because one is contaminated by this sattva-guṇa, one is a brāhmaṇa, very nice brāhmaṇa, therefore that is, from a material point of view, the brāhmaṇa is better than a śūdra. But from the spiritual platform, either a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra, they are contaminated by this material nature, so they are suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brāhmaṇa is thinking, "Oh, I am so pure. I am learned." So that is, thinking "I am so, I am so, I am so..." he is not thinking that he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, or God. Similarly, others are also thinking. So the fact is, so long as one is affected by these material modes of nature, his position is the same.

Śyāmasundara: William James's position is..., he calls himself a radical empiricist. He says that the unity of the universe as a neat set of interconnected relations in an absolute. It is false, because...

Prabhupāda: Absolute? False?

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that a unified pattern of things, that the universe as a unified scheme, neat pattern of things, is false because our direct experience informs us of a discontinuity of facts. Our direct experiences sees discontinuity of facts, so we must conclude that the universe is comprised of facts which are not perfect in unity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are seeing the universe by your imperfect eyes. So it is your imperfectness. Just like you are seeing the sun planet just like a disc, but it is not a disc. But because you cannot see perfectly, you are thinking like that. So your conception of the universe is imperfect, because you are imperfect. Otherwise, everything is complete. Just like Īśopaniṣad, pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). It is complete. That is the first verse of the Īśopaniṣad. But because you are imperfect, you are seeing the universe and everything as imperfect. The universe, because it is made by God, it cannot be imperfect. God is perfect, and anything created by God is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that...

Prabhupāda: Because you do not see through the eyes of God - you want to see through your imperfect eyes-therefore you consider this universe as imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is, the exact quote is, "That order is gradually one and always in the making." In other words, the universe is evolving toward ultimate unification, which is never fully achieved.

Prabhupāda: That means he has no knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. The universe is complete, but he is not complete. The same example: The deaf husband is considering the wife is deaf, because he cannot hear the response given by the wife. So because he has got imperfect knowledge, he has no knowledge of God, he has no knowledge that the... God has created this universe, and because it is created by the perfect being, it is also perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Because his vision of a unified universe is evolving, then he ascribes that the universe itself is false...

Prabhupāda: No. The universe is not evolving. It is perfect since it was created. But because we have no perfect knowledge, you are thinking it is evolving.

Śyāmasundara: Because he... Because my observations of the universe are evolving toward a unity. This is his criterion for truth, that only that which I can perceive is true, or which I can experience.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What you can perceive, that may be wrong thing also, because you are not perfect. But because you have got a poor fund of knowledge, therefore you are thinking that imperfect thing it is also perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that... This is a quote...

Prabhupāda: Just like in the śāstras it is stated that the human beings, they are being controlled by the modes of passion, so they love to work very hard. And that hard working, they think it is happiness. Actually, everyone is working hard day and night, and because he is getting some money in return, he is thinking that "I am becoming happier." In exchange of a little money he is accepting that hard working is very good. But śāstra says that this hard working for some sense gratification is being done by the hogs and dogs. They are also working hard, and getting some remuneration for food and sense enjoyment. So that business is there already. So does it mean that a human being also works so hard, as a hog, simply to get his food and sense gratification? Suppose a big builder is working hard and getting money. But what will be the result of his work? A little food and sense gratification. A beggar also, he's getting the little food and sense gratification. Then why he's happy working so hard? What is the use? That sense, it does not come to him. He thinks, "I am happy. I am happier than the beggar because I have got so much money, I have got such a big building." But what is in relation to you? You are eating the same four capatis and have your sex life with your wife, that's all. What is the better advantage you are getting than the hog and poor man? This is because he is in the modes of passion, he is thinking, "I am happier than him." This is called māyā, or illusion.

Śyāmasundara: James says that the world...

Prabhupāda: Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt, śāstra says. This viṣayasu, eating, sleeping, mating and defending - this is called viṣayasu - that is available in every life. A dog is also enjoying, the hog is also enjoying, a poor man is also enjoying, or a rich man is also enjoying. If a rich man has no hunger, then even very palatable dishes will not be very pleasing to him. But a poor man, if he has got hunger, even a rough foodstuff without any ghee or without any..., he eats like anything, like nectar. So the happiness of this viṣaya-eating, sleeping, mating and defending - they are equal everywhere. That does not mean that a rich man is enjoying eating more than a poor man. No. When one eats if one is hungry, the enjoyment is the same. There is no difference. Similarly the hog eats the stool with great eagerness. You pass stool, and the hog is waiting. As soon as you stand up, two or three hogs, "ruh, ruh, ruh," like this. (laughter) You see? So the happiness of eating stool and the happiness of eating halavā are the same. You see? It depends on the different tongues. Therefore a man, a drunkard, he, by his drinking liquor, it is tasting so nice. But at least for me, if you give me drop of liquor, it is so pungent, because I tasted rectified spirit when I was in medical practice, you see. It is so pungent, so... Just like burns the tongue. You see? So one man's food is another man's poison. That is all. But actually, in this material world this standard of happiness is equal. It is simply, this is called māyā, that he does not know that he is working so hard, but he is thinking that "I am becoming happy."

Śyāmasundara: From the graphs from Darwin and the evolutionists, there is an idea that...

Prabhupāda: Sometimes we see by some rich men in your country and here also, they will run (indistinct). First of all he becomes fatty by eating more. Then again he hasn't got to do in the office, anything, so he runs four miles, you see. He does not think this is labor; this is enjoyment. Similarly, the māyā, under the influence of māyā, everyone is working very hard, but he is thinking "I am enjoying."

Śyāmasundara: There is this idea in James's philosophy and others' also, since Darwin...

Prabhupāda: Sitting in this portion... (break) If I say "This is my portion," and if you are sitting in another portion and you say this is your portion, so by chance if I step in your portion you become angry, or you step in my portion... We forget that we have come here temporarily to sit down. Why shall I demark like this, "This is my portion," "This is my portion"? So the system is already there, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). The Īśopaniṣad says that whatever is allotted to you, you may be satisfied with that. But they are not satisfied in that way. I am trying to encroach upon your, I mean to say, possession, you are trying to encroach upon my possession. Or we have actually all forgotten that we are all sons of God. This planet is given to us to live, so let us produce according to the methods and eat and live peacefully and remember God. That we are not doing. The Americans, they have got... What is the area of your land?

Śyāmasundara: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I can measure it is about 3000 miles by 3000 miles. And whereas India is 1000 miles. What is the area of India? Maybe 1000 miles by 800 miles, whereas in America 3000 miles by 3000 miles. And the population is one quarter of India's. The land is four times than India, but the population is one quarter of India. So they can produce enough. Actually they are producing enough. And that can be distributed to the portion where the food is a scarcity. And that is arrangement of God. The land and the water given by God is sufficient for the whole population. Not only human beings - all beasts, birds... Sufficient food. But we are, I mean to say, mismanaging the whole thing. Therefore we find that India is poverty-stricken and America is throwing grains in the water. So actually, if we take the perfection made by God, that "This planet belongs to us, we human beings, and it is God's property, so let us live peacefully..." But..., but no. That is māyā. So therefore the whole solution of the problem is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people will understand that "We are all sons of Kṛṣṇa's. This land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, so let us enjoy our father's property without fighting..." That they will not do. And they will accuse that God has made incomplete. That is māyā. Otherwise from God's side everything is complete.

pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ
pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate
pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya
pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate
(ISO Invocation)

Śyāmasundara: His very quotation in this regard is, "The world is a pluralism of which the unity is not fully experienced as yet. The universe..."

Prabhupāda: That they have to understand through Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is a fact. Not as yet. Because they do not know the verse in the Bhagavad-gītā that "You are not proprietor." Neither you are Chinese, neither you are Americans. This they have to know. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, nāhaṁ vipra na ca narapati. He does not identify Himself with this tabernacle identifications, with this body.

Śyāmasundara: So where we differ from James is that we say that the truth exists, and it is revealed to a person...

Prabhupāda: As he becomes...

Śyāmasundara: ...as he experiences it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or as he becomes wiser.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He is born fool. Either Mr. James or Mr. something, they are all born fools.

Śyāmasundara: Whereas he says that "The truth develops as I experience it."

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that experience you have to take from a man who is experienced. Just like he wants to philosophize, he is trying to distribute his experience. But he does not like to take others' experience. That is the defect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the universe continually grows in quantity by new experiences that graft themselves upon the older mass.

Prabhupāda: This older mass, that we (indistinct) should (indistinct). Therefore our policy is that we should gather experience from a person who is already experienced.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that that person's experience will be transcended by another person's experience.

Prabhupāda: No. We will meet a person whose experience cannot be transcended, cannot be surpassed. We take experience from him. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can become wiser than Kṛṣṇa; therefore we take directly, experience from Kṛṣṇa. That is our standard. We don't accept any experience from a secondary man.

Śyāmasundara: So perhaps due to Darwin, these men, they don't think that truth exists independently of man's experience. They think that truth is developing as man evolves.

Prabhupāda: No. Because he is imperfect, he does not know what is truth. The same experience: because he cannot hear, other who is hearing is answering and he cannot hear him, so he thinks that he is dumb, deaf. Ātmavan manyate jagat. The difficulty is that everyone thinks others on his own standard. If a fool, he thinks others fool. So that is not the fact. We have to take experience from a person whose experience nobody can surpass. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni bhaviṣyāni (BG 7.26). He says that "I know past, present, future, everything." So who knows past, present, future, everything? Therefore we have to take experience from Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa that "You taught this philosophy to the sun-god - how I am to believe this?" Because Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna thought that "Kṛṣṇa is my friend, my cousin-brother. He is of my age. How is that I can believe that He taught this philosophy to the sun-god." This was not for Arjuna. This question was raised for us. So Kṛṣṇa replied that "Both you and Me were present. We took many times appearances. But you have forgotten. I do not forget." That is the difference between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa, ordinary living entity and God.

Śyāmasundara: So his definition of reality-reality equals pure experience. He says that reality equals pure...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we should go to the perfect experienced personality; then we can know reality. From his definition it is concluded that we must go to the perfect experienced person and understand what is reality. That is our process.

Śyāmasundara: The realized person.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then we can know what is reality. I cannot know what is reality, but if I go to the perfect experienced personality, he can tell me what is reality.

Viśāla: In the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Your Divine Grace, it mentions that there are three processes: the transcendental process, the speculative philosophical process, and the materialistic process. The devotees go to the transcendental process to get perfect knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viśāla: Parampara.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that 40,000,000..., "Thousands of years before, I spoke this philosophy to Vivasvān" - we accept it. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is an aspect of chance in nature.

Prabhupāda: Nature means always changing.

Śyāmasundara: Chance.

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: Chance. Accident. That there is an aspect of accident.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We don't accept that. If there would have been accident, so many planets are rotating in, and so forth... There is no collision. There is no accident. But in your motorcar there is so many accidents, and people are dying.

Śyāmasundara: He sees in our human conduct that we have the choice to make certain decisions, certain...

Prabhupāda: Decision means because you are imperfect, human beings are imperfect, so their machine, these motorcars, there are so many accidents, so many killing. But because God is so perfect, although all the planets are rotating in their speed, just like this earth is rotating... What is the speed? At least in twenty-four hours it is completing 25,000 miles. That means its speed is about 1000 miles at least. And similarly, other planets are also moving, similarly. And the sun planet is moving at 16,000 miles per minute or second, calculated. But all these planets are moving in this way, so much speed, but they are not colliding. The perfect arrangement is there, and they are floating. How it is possible? This is accidental? Do you think this is accidental?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says it like this, that there are alternative courses of action. For every possibility there are several other possibilities. So that for instance a man can make a decision, a choice, to take different, alternative way. So he says that nature works in that way also.

Prabhupāda: No. Nature is not working that way. Nature is working very perfectly. We can see. Just after... So perfect that the astronomers, they are calculating that on such and such date there will be an eclipse, and it will be seen in India; it will not be seen in Europe; and exactly at this time the eclipse will begin. So how they are calculating unless there is a rigid law? How it is possible? They are calculating mathematically. The general matter that two plus two is always four, not that by accident it becomes five. That is not possible. So the nature's law is working in that way. Otherwise how one year before you can calculate this solar eclipse and lunar eclipse so rightly? And they can say that from this country it will be seen, and from this country it will be not seen. That means the position of the sun, moon and everything, of the latitude and longitude, everything is so nicely done that you can make calculations very perfectly. How you can say accident? There is no accident.

Devānanda: In the Bhagavad-gītā even the human behavior is predicted like that. Through the later chapters it is described how people will act in different modes of nature, and they all behave that way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like in Bhāgavata it is calculated that lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. In the Kali-yuga, in this age, people will think by keeping their long hair he has become beautiful. Now, then, see all the hippies. That is written in the Bhāgavatam in India. How it is happening in Europe? Now the Indians also are imitating. So five thousand years before, this was written, lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam.

Śyāmasundara: So would even accidents between two automobiles, that would not really be an accident?

Prabhupāda: Because it is imperfect, therefore there is an accident.

Śyāmasundara: Oh! It is an accident?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: That is not determined by any...

Prabhupāda: No.

Bhavānanda: That's not determined even by karma?

Prabhupāda: What?

Bhavānanda: It is not determined even by karma?

Prabhupāda: Yes. In higher sense it is also like that. That means from God's eyes even the so-called accident is also predestined.

Devānanda: Nothing can be outside of the law of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: His definition of the world is that it is the stuff of pure experience - that matter, mind, everything is made up of experience.

Prabhupāda: Whose experience? Your experience?

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say whose experience. Just experience.

Prabhupāda: What does it mean? Experience, there are different types of experience. Your experience is different from my experience. Then we have to calculate whose experience.

Śyāmasundara: He says the substance called experience sometimes manifests in mind, sometimes manifests as matter. So, for instance, the substance of these flowers is made up of the experience gathered from previous flowers.

Prabhupāda: Whose experience? I am asking whose experience? It is not your experience, so nice flowers. You have not made it.

Śyāmasundara: Presumably the flower's experience.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. The flower's experience. (laughs) Just see.

Śyāmasundara: He just calls this pure experience. He doesn't say whose experience.

Prabhupāda: That means his knowledge is not perfect. He is speculating, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: Isn't everything we see a product of experience?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whose experience? That is my question.

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say, so...

Prabhupāda: He does not know.

Śyāmasundara: Whose experience.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's experience. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). This is the Vedic version. The Supreme is so much equipped with different kinds of energies. That energy means experience. You can apply your energy if you have got experience. You can apply your energy of drawing a figure, providing you have got experience.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, all this display of this universe or anything creation, cosmic manifestations, this is designed by the Supreme, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva. Multi-energies. Just like this flower. We have got experience that if you paint a flower, it requires so much experience to handle the brush and the colors. So similarly, this is certainly proof of experience, but His energy is acting so nicely, we see that the flower is coming automatically. And the same example I have given so many times, that nowadays in electronics, just like this, so many mechanical arrangement is within there. But I say "putt," - I push on this one button. One who does not know, he sees, "Oh, this is moving so wonderfully." No. There is experience.

Śyāmasundara: The Darwinists, for instance, would say that this flower through time had the experience that if it produced a nice odor, more bees would come to pollinate it and continue the species. So that the experience is passed on in the gene or the seed of the flower, so...

Prabhupāda: Whose experience passed?

Śyāmasundara: The flower's experience.

Prabhupāda: The flower has got experience?

Śyāmasundara: Don't all living things have experience?

Prabhupāda: No. All the living things are experienced, but ultimately they are put into certain condition by the experience of the Supreme. And the flavor of the flower is stated in Bhagavad-gītā: puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. There are many flowers, but all of them have no flavor. It must be the arrangement of somebody else who has given flavor to some flowers. He has given somebody beauty and somebody not. Otherwise who will deny beauty? If it had been done by his own experience, then everyone would have been beautiful or every flower would have given flavor. Where is that experience? That means either you say flower's experience or your experience, it is conducted by another, superior experience. What is that?

Devānanda: Would another conception be that Kṛṣṇa is not only the experienced since time immemorial but He is also the experiencer now? He, being the prime enjoyer, enjoyment means experience. He knows nothing but enjoying, so all His experience is enjoying. All His enjoying is His experience. That experience...

Prabhupāda: That means that the sum and substance, that is supremely experienced, past, present and future. Unless He is supremely experienced, how He can know future? Past and present..., past, present and future for us, because of the time, eternal time... I am a fragmental production of this time; therefore there is a beginning of my appearance, date. And when I disappear, there is a date of my disappearance. And within this date of appearance and disappearance, there is past, present and future. So my past, present and future and an ant's past, present and future and Brahmā's past, present... They are all different.

Śyāmasundara: Your experience after you, your body finishes, your experience is passed on, so that everything that we see-doors, walls, bodies, minds - everything is made up of previous experience. So and so learned how to build a door this way, and it was passed on...

Prabhupāda: That previous experience of Kṛṣṇa. Just like I was sometimes thinking of Africa, I think. They have made their houses almost like India. I have see that this is the Indian style. I have told you that this is Indian style. So how the Africans got my Indian's experience or the Indian got the African experience? So actually, the Indians did not take experience from Africans, nor the Africans took the experience from the Indians. It is experience of the Supersoul.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So just like a man...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo: (BG 15.15) "I am sitting in everyone's heart." Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca, "I am giving experience." So when the Africans are constructing a house or cottage like the Indians, that is not that the Africans came to India and learned this experience. Or the Indians are constructing a cottage just like the Africans, that does not mean that... Several times I have told you that so far as the pigeon is concerned, the sparrow, I mean to say, either American or Indian, they are of the same size and doing the same thing.

Śyāmasundara: I think that we have discussed this before under the categories of acquired knowledge and intuitive knowledge, that some knowledge is acquired, experienced; some knowledge is intuitive.

Prabhupāda: So the pigeons or the sparrows or the doves are doing the same thing in India as in America. It does not mean these pigeons have gone to America from India.

Śyāmasundara: So it's intuitive.

Prabhupāda: But because they are Kṛṣṇa's... As Paramātmā is there, within the heart of the pigeon in India and America, they are acting similarly. Therefore original experience comes from God. And He says that "I know everything past, present, and future." That is real experience.

Śyāmasundara: So his definition of reality is pure experience, or...

Prabhupāda: He cannot give any definition of reality because he has not experienced. He has not perfectly experienced, so how he can give the definition of reality? What definition he is giving, that is not reality. He has no experience. He is developing experience. So how he can give a definition of reality?

Śyāmasundara: Actually, he is defining the process.

Prabhupāda: What is that process?

Śyāmasundara: The process is to understand reality, but he is not describing reality.

Prabhupāda: He says that reality?

Śyāmasundara: He says that reality is the stream of consciousness or the flux of life.

Prabhupāda: A jugglery of words, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: One's consciousness, as it develops more and more conscious, then he becomes more and more aware of reality.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is the guarantee that he'll develop consciousness fully?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. What if a man develops into a madman? Does that make him more aware of reality?

Prabhupāda: That definition we can give him. When a man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is contacted with reality.

Devānanda: It's only when a man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious or actually reaches the reality, then he can be sure that the process does lead to the reality. He is speculating that this process will lead to the reality, but he doesn't know it for sure, because it has not actually brought him to the point of reaching the reality.

Prabhupāda: Of course, to reach the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform the process is not man-made.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: The process is also God-made. Just like Kṛṣṇa said that, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the process. This is not man-made; this is God-made. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). This is God-made. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). This is God-made. So to come to Kṛṣṇa conscious platform also, you have to follow the God-made method, not your method. You cannot give any definition.

Śyāmasundara: But he has a philosophy of religion. And he says that the believer in God has a greater chance than the doubter to discover truth and to gain...

Prabhupāda: That... Vinaśyati. Those who are doubtful, they vinaśyati; they are finished.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that at least the believer has a greater chance to gain practical advantages by his belief, whereas the doubter doesn't stand any chance to gain...

Prabhupāda: That is good. That is good. Then whether he is a believer or a doubter?

Śyāmasundara: He is a believer, but the extent of his belief we'll discuss in a few moments. He says that the one who disbelieves faces the added risk of losing any chance of discovering the truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So it is better to believe, even though one doesn't know for sure. It is better to believe because it gives one more chance of discovering the truth. He says that we have the right to believe in God, even in the absence of absolute proof. Even though there is no absolute proof, he says, of the existence of God, still we have the right to believe in God because this helps us to get closer to the truth. It gives us a better chance.

Prabhupāda: That means he accepts God is truth and that He's existing. Does he say like that or not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says there is no absolute proof, but...

Prabhupāda: But that is proof.

Śyāmasundara: ...by my belief I get more...

Prabhupāda: That he is saying, that if somebody believes, he has got greater chance. Unless the fact is there, simply by believing, how there is chance?

Śyāmasundara: He says that by this belief I get some strength, some happiness, some practical advantage; therefore I have the right to believe, because I get a practical benefit.

Prabhupāda: So practical benefit... Suppose you are getting some warmth, so you believe there must be some fire. So I believe. Unless there is fire, how there is warmth?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So the belief itself is the proof.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one thing about James as distinct from many other philosophers is that he felt the personal experience of God.

Prabhupāda: Everyone has got personal experience of God.

Devānanda: But he recognized it as such.

Prabhupāda: Somebody He reveals; sometimes he does not believe - He hides. Everyone has got. Everyone. A human being, every human being has got.

Devānanda: That's true. The only experience...

Prabhupāda: No, no. The atheists, simply artificially they cover. Naturally he has belief. Naturally he has belief. Even in this primitive stage, as soon as there is something wonderful, natural phenomenon, they offer respects, the primitive man. The man in the jungle, as soon as he sees a big ocean, he offers his respects. As soon as he sees a big mountain, he offers his respects. As soon as there is a thunderbolt... This is called realization of the śakti. Parasya brahmaṇaḥ śakti. So this is śakta stage, realization of God by seeing something wonderful. That is śakta stage. Then after this state, śakta, saurīyam. Śakta stage, worshiping the energy of God - everything is energy; then śaktyopāsanam, then śaktasaurīyam, then suryopāsanam, worshiping the sun, because it is the reservoir of all energies according to the material world. Śakta, saurīya then gāṇapatya. The gāṇapatya means that is humanitarian. That energy is distributed-pantheism, humanitarian. Śakta, sauriyam, gāṇapatya, then śaiva, you go on. Then Vaiṣṇava. Impersonal then personalist.

Śyāmasundara: There is also the demigods in charge of those different departments? Different demigods...

Prabhupāda: That is gāṇapatya. Gaṇapati, the worshiper of Gaṇeśa. Gāṇapatya.

Śyāmasundara: Śakti.

Prabhupāda: Śakti, Sūrya, Gaṇapati, Śiva, and then Viṣṇu-pañcopāsanam. This is called pañcopāsanam.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the mind is not dependent upon the existence of the body; therefore the mind may survive the body...

Prabhupāda: That is fact. That, that we say. The gross body, when it is finished, the subtle body - mind, intelligence, ego-remains. That carries me to another gross body. Just like the example is, there is a flavor. You cannot see, but it is carried by the air. If it is coming from the rose garden, you say, "Oh, very nice flavor." You cannot see it, but it is carried by the subtle air. Similarly, I, the spirit soul, when I give up this gross body, then I am carried. I have got body still. That is subtle body - mind, intelligence, and ego. And according to my desire, that subtle body grows into another gross body.

Śyāmasundara: So the mind and the intelligence, they are not material? That means...

Prabhupāda: Material. Subtle.

Śyāmasundara: But they don't die? They die also? The mind...

Prabhupāda: No. Dies and it disappears. Disappear... When you are liberated, then you have no more material mind.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. But you carry your material mind throughout all of your lifetimes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long as you are not liberated.

Śyāmasundara: The same mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The same mind.

Śyāmasundara: So the mind I have now I have always had.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But the body I have now...

Prabhupāda: The body changes. This is also material; that is material. But the subtle material accompanies me, unless I am liberated.

Śyāmasundara: So the subtle material is capable of longer life. Very long life.

Devānanda: It is acquiring saṁskāras as it goes from body to body, developing new bodies it acquires new saṁskāras and carrying...

Śyāmasundara: The mind doesn't deteriorate or get old.

Prabhupāda: Changing, that is a mind's business. Changing. Saṅkalpa, vikalpa-accepting and rejecting.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So the mind I have now, the mind I have now...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...I may not have had in the past.

Prabhupāda: No. No. Why not? The same mind?

Śyāmasundara: Same mind.

Prabhupāda: Rejecting these circumstances, accepting another circumstances.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, the function is the same, but the contents may be different.

Prabhupāda: Same thing. Just like you are sitting here. You can, by the dictation of the mind, you can go somewhere else. You can immediately go to your American home. The mind will carry you.

Śyāmasundara: He had a vague idea of Brahman realization, by saying that the consciousness...

Prabhupāda: Everything is vague idea.

Śyāmasundara: The consciousness eventually enters into the, what he called the mother sea.

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: The mother sea.

Prabhupāda: Mother sea?

Śyāmasundara: The mother ocean.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Śyāmasundara: He says that the consciousness eventually enters into the mother ocean. That is as far as he could speculate.

Devānanda: Let the bubbles go on popping in the ocean. The bubble bursting into the ocean is the mother sea.

Prabhupāda: Merges into the...

Śyāmasundara: Merges into the...

Prabhupāda: ...supreme consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Something like that. He says that experience and not philosophy or theology should form the basis of religious life; that experience should be our religious life and not just philosophy, but actual applied practice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Philosophy will give us the idea of the goal, and our practical application is to give us the right path.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the life of religion is mankind's most important function.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. We say also, without religion a living entity is no better than an animal. So that is very important.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that the evidence for God's existence is found primarily in one's personal inner experience. One has an intuitive experience that God exists.

Prabhupāda: God exists. Just like we say always that God is supposed to be the supreme father. So as I know, even though I did not see my father, but still I know that I had father, or I have father. So if God is the supreme father, He must be there.

Śyāmasundara: So presumably you could not convince someone through logic or...

Prabhupāda: This is logic. This is logic.

Śyāmasundara: ...like that, that God exists, unless he has a personal inner experience that God exists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very simple logic. Because I am born of my father, my father is born of his father, his father is born of his father, go on, go on, and find out the supreme father. After all, there must have been a beginning of all the fathers. So how can I deny the supreme father?

Śyāmasundara: Unless I have the experience, inner experience of that...

Prabhupāda: This is inner experience. It is very simple. Because my father is, therefore I am born of him. He is born of his father, he is born of his father. Go on, that's it. That is, our śāstra says, ultimately you will come to Brahmā, the father of this universe. The Brahmā is also born of Nārāyaṇa, how you say, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, and the Garbhodakaśāyī, wherefrom He comes? Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Wherefrom Mahā-Viṣṇu comes? From Saṅkarṣaṇa. Wherefrom Saṅkarṣaṇa comes? From Nārāyaṇa. Wherefrom Nārāyaṇa comes? He comes from Baladeva. Wherefrom does Baladeva comes? Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the Brahma-saṁhitā says,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
(Bs. 5.1)

He is the original cause of all causes.

Śyāmasundara: He makes a few comments about religion. He says that "The religious experience is unique, and it enables the individual to realize that the world he perceives is part of a spiritual universe which alone gives the sensory world value, and that man's proper goal is to unite himself with that higher universe. That prayer or inner communion with the universal spirit or God is the means whereby spiritual energy flows in and produces effects, psychological or material, occurring in the phenomenal world. And that religious faith imparts a new zest to life, taking the form either of lyrical enchantment or of appeal to earnestness and heroism, and that religion contributes some assurance of safety and peace and teaches love in human relationships."

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Śyāmasundara: He says some nice things about...

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Śyāmasundara: But practically, the practical aspect of religion, that it imparts new zest to life, that it produces psychological and material effects, like that. But he didn't believe that God was unlimited. That was his... He believed that God was somehow limited; because there is evil, because evil exists, that God is somehow limited.

Prabhupāda: He does not know that evil does not exist independently. He does not know. In our śāstras it says that evil is the back side of God. But it is not independent of God. But either back side or front side, it is God; therefore it is absolute. I cannot neglect my back side. I cannot say that "You can beat me on my back side. Go on, kick me." That I cannot say. The back side is as important as the front side. But comparatively it is explained that evil is back side, pāpa, sin. That is back side of God.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we can cooperate with God...

Prabhupāda: That means when you are not in front side of God, you are sinful.

Devānanda: If one doesn't stand before God, he stands in darkness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we can cooperate...

Prabhupāda: Those who are sinful, they cannot stand in front of God. Kṛṣṇa therefore says, yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam: unless one has completely uncontaminated from the reaction of pāpa,

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
(BG 7.28)

So one cannot be Kṛṣṇa conscious unless he is freed from all sinful reactions. But if you say, "Then I am so much sinful. How can I become Kṛṣṇa conscious? It will just take a long, long time." Yes. It will take a long, long time, but if you accept Kṛṣṇa's order immediately, just "You surrender unto Me and I will give you relief from all sinful reactions," so you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, so your sinful life immediately becomes pious life. That is a fact. What you think, Viśāla Prabhu?

Viśāla: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You are hearing?

Viśāla: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So by surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa, immediately one becomes pious. Is that not a fact?

Viśāla: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all for him.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Now, Mr. ... (end)