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720118 - Conversation Bengali - Jaipur

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720118R2-JAIPUR - January 18, 1972 - 31:17 Minutes

(translated from Bengali)

Śrīla Prabhupāda in conversation with Rajmata Gayatri Devi.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Please forgive me. I've got delayed.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) It's all right.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I've brought him along for your blessings.

Prabhupāda: Is this your grandson?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

(sound of a child crying)

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Don't cry.

(indistinct conversation) (long pause)

Prabhupāda: When I was staying in Ascot, at John Lennon's house . . .

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: One day I heard the the sound of fire-crackers. When I asked where they where coming from, I was they were from Jaipur House. That's when I learnt that you have a house there.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: That was during Kali-puja . . . Diwali.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then I was told that you have seen our party doing kīrtana in London.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, I've only seen them from a distance, but haven't associated with them.

Prabhupāda: Of course, you've had no association. You've just seen them from your house. This is what I wanted to mention to you that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being accepted with love. This is such a big cultural movement but I'm struggling alone on the Indian side. The reason for my mentioning this to you is that I've heard, though I'm not sure, that you're interested in such activities.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, I am interested . . . but the thing is that I get very little time. Also, there's something that's been making my mind restless.

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: All day I'm troubled by people.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that they will.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: So, that's why, I'm unable to give time to what I really want to do.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Is there a specific reason? What is that reason?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, there is but I don't want to talk about it in front of everyone. May I talk with you privately?

Prabhupāda: Yes, sure.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: May we sit somewhere else? (aside) Please take the bag along.

Prabhupāda: Yes sure, let's go.

Prabhupāda: That book you've got . . . that's the second part.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, you've gave it.

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . this is the first part. This has the entire Kṛṣṇa philosophy.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: The matter is that . . . since the departure of Maharaja Sahib, all the time, my mind is . . .

Prabhupāda: Your mind is sad.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I've been unable to understand his death. Why it happened this way. He passed away very suddenly, in front of my eyes. I'm just not able to understand.

Prabhupāda: Did his death take place in your presence?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I was there. It was totally unexpected, so naturally my mind is always disturbed.

Prabhupāda: How did he pass away? Was he afflicted by any disease?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: He had a slight heart condition that he didn't want to talk about, never mentioned it. He ate well, he seemed all right. When it happened, I thought that this life means nothing.

Prabhupāda: Life means nothing?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Then why do we have to come here and suffer all this?

Prabhupāda: We have to come here because we are part and parcel of God. Bhagavad-Gita says:

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke
(Bhagavad-gita 15.7)

We are part and parcel of God. However, even though we are part and parcel of God, we have independence. God is fully independent, and even though the living entities are part and parcel of God, our independence is limited. For example, the ocean . . .

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The ocean and a drop of water from the ocean, has the same chemical composition. Both have the same chemical composition. The difference is that one is large and the other is small. Anu and vibhu. Vibhu means huge. "bṛhatya bṛhanatyād iti brahman". We are small. Just how small we are, is described in the scriptures.

Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca
(CC Madhya 19.140)

If the tip of a hair is divided into ten thousand parts, that one portion is the living entity.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, this little portion that is the living entity. These minute living entities have independent desires. Just as, you have many servants and employees, and one of them may have the desire to be king. That is not unnatural.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: To desire the same wealth and opulence. This is not unnatural. Similarly, due to that minute independence when the living entity feels that, "Kṛṣṇa is the enjoying everything. Even I want to enjoy like Kṛṣṇa." That is when maya . . . this illusion that is not possible for us to enjoy, becomes enchanted by the illusion, and is entrapped by this illusion. The example of this is that the sparks that emanate from fire, have every chance falling down.

(sound of a child and others talking in the background)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Stop. Śyamasundara!

Śyamasundara: Yes?

Prabhupāda: Please talk silently.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: (indistinct)

Śyamasundara: I'm sorry.

Prabhupāda: Talk silently.

Śyamasundara: Should we close the door?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, that falls down . . . the spark. So, when the spark falls down, there's a possibility that it may fall on water, or on the ground. On the ground there is dry and green grass.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, there are three places. Similarly, the living entity is also falling away from God. If it falls into water then, it extinguishes. of course the living entity does not extinguish but when it becomes totally covered, that is the mode of ignorance.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The material existence is influenced by three modes of goodness, passion and ignorance. The example of falling into water is the mode of ignorance, right to the bottom, completely covered, like animals, plants and similar. They are also living but they are covered. And falling on the ground is compared to being in the mode of passion. When the ember falls on dry grass, ignites and helps others ignite. So, when the living entity, influenced by the three modes of material nature:

kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya
(Bhagavad-gita 13.22)

Prabhupāda: The living entities influenced by these three modes are taking birth in various forms. Someone is taking birth in an aristocratic family, someone in a sweeper's family, someone in a dog's. Taking birth in so may different situations. There are 8,400,0000 species of life. Tri-guṇamayī.

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī
(Bhagavad-gītā 7.14)

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is how living entities are transmigrating. However, when this has happened, the exact calculation for that is not available. Hence it is described as anādi. Anādi means before this creation.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Before this creation. This is how it is going on, and the living entities are transmigrating through various bodily forms. 8,400,0000 forms. And through innumerable universes, and countless planets like Yamaloka, Tapoloka etc. So, the living entities are roaming around everywhere through in various ways. However, within that, by good fortune the living entity is able to contact the association of a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then the knowledge that, "I am part and parcel of God," may be acquired. And that, "I am now suffering in this illusory material realm." That enquiry is known as Brahma-sūtra. Perhaps you have read the Brahma-sūtra?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: No. I haven't read anything . . .

Prabhupāda: Brahma-sūtra. The first verse is "athāto brahma jijñāsā." Enquiry regarding about the supreme subject matter. When the human being . . . the stage you are presently at is known as the brahma jijñāsā stage, when you are questioning, "Why? Why am I unhappy?" You are a Queen and have access to all the material opulence, comforts and happiness. However, you are feeling some anxiety that is troubling your life, and you are not feeling good.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: No.

Prabhupāda: This condition is present everywhere. When we come to this stage of questioning, "Why?", this is "brahma jijñāsā". "Athāto brahma jijñāsā." This is factually, the first stage of emancipation. By God's desire, you are feeling this and this is not bad in anyway. You have got an inquisitiveness and feeling, so you must question regarding the meaning of life. And discuss the situation that is affecting your life.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: How will I get to know the answers?

Prabhupāda: Everything is mentioned in the scriptures.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: But I won't be able to sit alone and read.

Prabhupāda: You don't have to be alone. If you wish, we can help you.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: But you stay somewhere else, and I'm somewhere . . .

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter where I am, we can communicate by correspondence. We can meet sometime. You too travel a lot.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: For a day or two.

Prabhupāda: I see, like that. While I'm here for a few days . . .

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I'm leaving today.

Prabhupāda: You're leaving?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Where are you going?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I'm going to Delhi for two days.

Prabhupāda: I see. That is the difficulty. If you're able to stay with us for a few days, I'd be happy to help you.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Kindly explain something to me . . . regarding Maharaja Sahib . . . am I never going to able to associate with him again?

Prabhupāda: Of course, if that's your desire, you can reconnect. Why not? But how is associating again going to benefit you?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: How? Well . . .

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Because the situation of this material realm is not a steady one . . .

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, I know that

Prabhupāda: Therefore, even if you reconnect, you may be separated again. Are you being able to understand?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Hence, even if you desire, you cannot make that association permanent over here. Here, it is not possible to have a permanent relationship. This is the intelligent way to understand this,

(Bhagavad-gīta 13.9)

Here, even the topmost person, Brahmā takes birth, and has to die. Like the little insects that are born on Diwali and die the same day. So, here everything is time-bound - past, present, future - it is relative. There is a big difference between an insect and Brahmā's past and present. However, with that everyone has a past, present and future. Time is eternal. So, past, present and future is according to each one's bodily situation. However, your individual spiritual identity is beyond this past, present and future. "nistrai-guṇyo bhavārjuna" (Bhagavad-gītā 2.45) In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, "trai-guṇya-viṣayā vedā". This material world is controlled by the three modes of nature. Arjuna is being told that he is beyond the three modes of material nature.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: Beyond the three modes of material nature. Transcendental. That is, qualitatively the same as God. If the two of you are able to surrender to God, and regain your God-like spiritual form, and then you will never be separated. That must be done.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That must be done. That must be done, and if you're able to make a success of your life, then the attraction that you have for your husband, then God will grant that to you.

ye yathā māṁ prapadyante
tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
(Bhagavad-gītā 4.11)

Prabhupāda: God is omnipotent, all-powerful. When you take shelter of Him, then He fufills the devotee's desires. Just as Dhruva Mahārāja, he was a young child when his father, the king had two queens had a disagreement (laughing). The king was sitting, when both the son's - young Dhruva Mahārāja and the other queen's son wanted to sit on their father's lap. So, the young child was trying to climb on to the father's lap. So, the the younger queen, whom the king loved more, to show-off her prowess told Dhruva Mahārāja, "Dhruva, you're a child hence so perhaps don't know that since you're not born from my womb, you're not allowed to sit on the king's lap. You don't have the right."

Dhruva Mahārāja, being a kṣatriya's son felt extremely insulted. Feeling humiliated, without trying to get on his father's lap, he went to meet his own mother, Suniti. Crying he said, "Mother, I was trying to sit on Baba's lap, and the younger queen insulted me by saying that since I wasn't born from her I had no right to sit on father's lap." His mother said: "What she said was right, my son, because your father does not accept me even as a maid-servant. So, it is true that had you been born from her womb, you would've had the right to sit on your father's lap."

So Dhruva Mahārāja Asks, "Isn't there a solution for this?" His mother says: "Yes, there is a solution, that you must engage in the worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. My dear boy, you also should take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is very kind to His devotees." Dhruva Mahārāja says: "Oh! Is that so?" Inspired by his mother's words, he leaves for the forest with determination. Thereafter, Bhagavān appears to Dhruva Mahārāja. Even though after seeing Him, he says,"Bhagavān, after seeing You, I do not want anything," God knew that Dhruva Mahārāja wanted to rule and enjoy his father's kingdom, and grants him that desire.

The reason for my mentioning this is, that by devotional service to God, all that people desire, is possible to be fulfilled. This is the truth. In the scriptures it is stated:

akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā
mokṣa-kāma udāra-dhīḥ
tīvreṇa bhakti-yogena
yajeta puruṣaṁ param
(SB 2.3.10)

Whether one is akāmi, akāmi means a devotee, who does not ask for anything from God but only to render service to God. Sarva-kāmi is the fruitive worker, and mokṣa-kāmi is the seeker of knowledge. So, the scriptures inform us that, irrespective of the nature of your desire.

Since you have asked me for my opinion, the advice I'd like to give you is that you gain a good understanding of this science. The science of the God that I've tried to explain clearly in the books I've written.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Is it there in this book?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is in the form of stories that has the philosophy, theology and everything within.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Please read these two books, and ask any questions that may arise. if you wish, I can give you more books to read. And after reading these books about devotion to God, all your desires will be satiated. There's o doubt about this.

God is all-powerful. If an ordinary king, when asked for something, has the ability to easily give if he so wishes, then what to speak of God who is the Supreme controller, Paramīśvara. This will be very good for you. Try to scientifically understand devotion to God. After reading this, I will send you more books.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Where are you travelling to from here?

Prabhupāda: From here, I'm going to Africa.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: You're going to Africa now?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Africa . . . in Africa, our . . . Śyamasundara! (calling devotee)

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I'll go and call him. You don't take the trouble.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it's all right, why should you go . . .

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: No, it's all right, I'll call him. Please be seated.

Prabhupāda: Śyamasundara!

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Mahārāja's calling you.

Prabhupāda: (to Śyamasundara in English) Where's that letter from Africa?

Śyamasundara: (English) From Africa?

Prabhupāda: Is it here? This is the letter given to us . . .

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I don't have my reading glasses . . . I see.

Prabhupāda: The movement is spreading there . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There's a lot of preaching going on all over the world. Krishna's kirtana . . . as you saw yesterday . . . there are seventy centers.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I see. When are you going to return from Africa? Where are you going after that?

Prabhupāda: From Africa, I'll return to India. That's the program. My desire is that you think about all this and join this movement.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: If I join, does that mean I won't be able to stay here?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Prabhupāda: No, no, not at all.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Then?

Prabhupāda: In any case, you do travel a lot.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Not too much . . . just for a day or two.

Prabhupāda: Right. Where do you stay most of the time?

(Background talk indistinct)

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Here, and in Delhi.

Śyamasundara: (English) There's one from Africa . . . I don't have very many . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here?

Śyamasundara: This is from Japan . . . London . . .

Prabhupāda: When you're in London next time please visit our temple.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, I surely will.

Prabhupāda: Good.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Please let me know what you'd like me to do for the movement?

Prabhupāda: I would like . . . because you are famous all over the world . . . if you join this movement, then it will help the movement grow rapidly. You will also be able to help us with your valuable service . . . (to Śyamasundara) Where's that letter?

Śyamasundara: (English) From . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Many tourists . . .

Śyamasundara: This is from our festival in London Rathayatra.

Prabhupāda: Have you seen our Rathayatra in London?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: No, I haven't.

Prabhupāda: Have you heard about it?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: No, I haven't.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) I see. Rathayatra is held in London and San Francisco.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I see . . . how may I be of help to you?

Prabhupāda: Immediately, we have a problem that many tourists want to visit here.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Tourists who want to visit and learn from here.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: However, I have don't have a good place for them to stay . . .

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, we can surely help with that.

Prabhupāda: Since you have so many places, and if you can give us one. We don't want proprietorship.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I just want to start something.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, if this can be arranged that would be of immediate benefit. Many people want to visit because are movement is becoming known all over the world. Cox and Kings sent us a letter asking where they can send those people asking about our movement because they're may interested in spiritual enquiry.

Śyamasundara: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So, they have given us a letter asking where they can send people. However, I don't have a place in India where I can host them, to teach and impart knowledge.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: We don't have a house but there's land.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Please have a look at this.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: So, if we give that, then we're to be levied a gift tax.

Prabhupāda: Our organisation is exempted from tax.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I see.

Prabhupāda: There's no tax for us. The property that you own in Vrindavan?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: All those have been taken by the Rajasthan government. Nowadays, they are taking eveything.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: They have taken everything, and they are planning to take away all the land. They will take everything. There's a building here that I can talk to my son about. however, that's not very big. How large a place do you require?

Prabhupāda: We want a good building because these Europeans and Americans expect a certain standard.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes. The thing is that the building we have is not very big . . . how many people will stay there?

Prabhupāda: Well, if such a place is possible, then ideally around twenty to fifty people.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: And how many overseas visitors? If there are hundred or two hundred . . .

Prabhupāda: If there are hundred or two hundred, then that organised. So many will not arrive immediately. DO you have a place in Bombay?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: No, we don't have a place in Bombay. Nowhere, other than a small property in Mussoorie.

Prabhupāda: Mussoorie?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes. There's property only in Jaipur, and nowhere else.

Prabhupāda: What are you thinking of doing with your property here?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: This place is going to be kept under a Trust. There will be a museum. In the museum, there are many ancient scriptures and literary works that scholars will be able to read, and painting and other cultural things will be taught.

Prabhupāda: I see. Since people are coming to seek this culture, will it not be possible to give us a place here, so that spiritual culture can be imparted to them?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Here . . . well . . . er . . . the problem here is that the plumbing and all that is in very poor condition which may be difficult. I was thinking of a house which is next to Govindaji's temple on the way to the market.

Prabhupāda: Opposite?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes. that place will have to be arranged and renovated.

Prabhupāda: How big is the house?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: It has to checked . . . from outside it seems there are about four or five rooms . . . I think . . . may be more..

Prabhupāda: You haven't seen it?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: No, I haven't . . . earlier we had the veiled-system for women, so I never visited there. I have been there a couple of times. There's an arch there, just as there is at Govindaji's temple. (aside) If you could please call Radhamohanji, he may be able to answer the questions.

Prabhupāda: I remember Radhamohan mentioning that we can utilise any place that's suitable, and that Rani-Sahib has said that.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: No . . . all this belongs to the trust, and you know, we wanted to give the garden but even that was not possible . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, there's a building in the garden?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes, that's the one I'm referring to . . .

(conversation between Rajmata and Radhamohanji, where the Rajmata is putting Srila Prabhupada's proposal to Radhamohanji, who seems agreeable to the proposal while she refutes it by presenting various reasons and apparent difficulties. Śrīla Prabhupāda listens silently)

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Right Mahārāja, I need to go out now to give Gitobitan.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: I will give this a thought and get in touch with you when I return.

Prabhupāda: When do you return?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: On the morning of the 21st.

Prabhupāda: 21st?

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: 21st morning. (English) When we are starting?

Śyamasundara: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No we have to go via Bombay.

Śyamasundara: 9:40 in the morning on the 22nd.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Then that's all right. Then . . . instead of rushing . . . I will have a look, check it out and then let you know if we can find a suitable place . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Is it possible for them to show us the place

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He can show it to us.

Rajmata Gayatri Devi: Yes he can show it to you.

Prabhupāda: All right. (end)