740119 - Lecture SB 01.16.23 - Honolulu

Lectures by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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740119SB-HONOLULU - January 19, 1974 - 59:35 Minutes

Pradyumna: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. (devotees repeat) (leads chanting of verse, etc.)

yadvāmba te bhūri-bharāvatāra-

kṛtāvatārasya harer dharitri

antarhitasya smaratī visṛṣṭā

karmāṇi nirvāṇa-vilambitāni

(SB 1.16.23)

(break) (leads synonyms)

yadvā — that may be; amba — O mother; te — your; bhūri — heavy; bhara — load; avatāra — decreasing the load; kṛta — done; avatārasya — one who incarnated; hareḥ — of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa; dharitri — O earth; antarhitasya — of Him who is now out of sight; smaratī — while thinking of; visṛṣṭā — all that were performed; karmāṇi — activities; nirvāṇa — salvation; vilambitāni — that which entails.

(break)

Translation: "O Mother Earth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari incarnated Himself as Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa just to unload your heavy burden. All His activities here are transcendental, and they cement the path of liberation. You are now bereft of His presence. You are probably now thinking of those activities and feeling sorry in their absence."

Prabhupāda: So Dharmarāja is suggesting so many things why Mother Earth in the shape of a cow was morose. He was suggesting so many. So one of the suggestion is that, "Kṛṣṇa was present. Now He's not present. Therefore you are so morose." So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

(BG 4.7)

Kṛṣṇa incarnates when there is discrepancies in the matter of discharging religious principles. Just like when there is discrepancy in the discharge of law and order, the government takes special measure . . . what is called, that? A special law?

Devotees: Martial law.

Prabhupāda: Not martial. There is another word. Martial law is also one of the emergency law. So anyway, the nature's arrangement is like that. Just like children, they're allowed to play, but under certain condition. So we all, we are all children of God, Kṛṣṇa. So we have come here to enjoy, to lord it over the material nature. That is the tendency. So Kṛṣṇa has given us the facility. Just like in the beach there are many young men who are playing in the sea with surf, but still, the government has watch over it. Government's duty is that they may not be drowned.

So here it is risky. We have come here to enjoy. Actually, we are not meant for enjoying. We are meant for serving. Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, jīvera svarūpa haya-nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109): "Our real identity is to serve, to remain under the protection . . ." We are always under the protection, this way or that way, but we are thinking falsely that we are free. We are not free. Kṛṣṇa is taking care of us. He has allowed us, "All right, you have come here. Try to satisfy yourself. But there are certain rules and regulation." If you break those rules and regulation, for your interest Kṛṣṇa takes the measures.

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham . . .

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

(BG 4.7)

So here Kṛṣṇa came, and this incidence took place after disappearance of Kṛṣṇa. Kali-yuga entered after disappearance of Kṛṣṇa. Parīkṣit Mahārāja was also very vigilant. The Pāṇḍavas, they left their kingdom because they could understand that Kali-yuga has already entered. So bhūri-bharāvatāra-kṛtāvatārasya. Bhūri-bhara, when people become too much sinful, the earth becomes overburdened by the sinful activities of the people. Therefore it is called bhūri-bharavatāra. And Kṛṣṇa comes to mitigate. dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Kṛtāvatārasya harer dharitri. This is the purpose of avatāra. Avatāra, this word is very significant. The tāra, tāra means "movement"; and ava, ava means "down." Just like avanati. So avatāra. Kṛṣṇa lives in the spiritual sky, beyond this material sky, very high, and Kṛṣṇa-loka, the planet of Kṛṣṇa, is the topmost planet in the spiritual world. That is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā, goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya (Bs. 5.43). The topmost planet is Goloka, Goloka Vṛndāvana planet. You have seen the picture. It is lotuslike. So goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni: "That is His personal abode." Tale ca tasya, "below that," goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya (Bs. 5.43), "below that planet," goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya devī-maheśa-hari-dhāmasu. Devī. This universe, this material universe, is called devī-dhāma. Devī-dhāma means under the protection, or supervision, of mother nature. That is called devī-dhāma, material nature.

So goloka-dhāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya devī, devī-dhāma. This material world is devī-dhāma, under the . . . you have seen the picture of Durgā. So material nature is also devī, devī-dhāma. And maheśa-dhāma. Above this, there is maheśa-dhāma, the region of Lord Śiva. Devī-maheśa-hari-dhāmasu. Then the Vaikuṇṭhas. And the topmost is kṛṣṇa-dhāma. That dhāma, or that universal system, that is very, very big, many times. This material universe is considered one-fourth creation. It is one . . . ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42), in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said: "This material world is one-fourth creation of God." And the three-fourth creation is the spiritual world. Just imagine. This material world, this universe which you are seeing, the big sky, dome, this is one universe. That is also stated. We get all this information from Vedic literature. This universe is only one single universe, and there are so many planets, stars. These are all stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (Bs. 5.40). Jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and koṭi means millions—100,000 one hundred times.

So yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. Jagad-aṇḍa means this one universe, and aṇḍa . . . aṇḍa means egg. Therefore it is called jagad-aṇḍa, "egglike, round." We are within the egg. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (Bs. 5.40). There are millions of eggslike clustered together. This is material world. Millions, not one. And each universe . . . koṭiṣu vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam. In each universe there are millions and trillions of stars and planets, koṭiṣu vibhūti-bhinnam. And each one of them is different from the other. Just like you are going to . . . trying to go to the moon planet, but you cannot stay there because the atmosphere is different. Everything is there. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣu vasudhādi (Bs. 5.40). Vasudhā means planets. This is also called vasudhā, this planet. So just imagine what insignificant this vasudhā in comparison to the whole material world. There are millions of universes, and in each and every universe there are millions and trillions of the stars and planets. This is the whole creation of material world. And taking them together, this is one-fourth creation of God. The three-fourths creation is the spiritual world, and in that spiritual world, the topmost planet is called Goloka Vṛndāvana. That is the place of Kṛṣṇa.

So Kṛṣṇa comes down from there; therefore avatāra, "comes down." Therefore He's called avatāra. Or any Viṣṇu incarnation who comes down, They come down from the higher planetary system. Therefore it is called avatāra. Incarnation means avatāra: who comes down from higher position. Therefore, here it is said, kṛtāvatārasya hareḥ. Hareḥ, "of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Hari, hari means "who takes away all your miserable condition." Hari, haran, harati. Harati means take away. He comes here just to give you benediction, to save you from all kinds of miseries. Therefore His name is Hari. Yasyāham anugṛhṇāmi . . . er, yasya aham anugṛhṇāmi, anugṛhṇāmi . . . I forget now. Kṛṣṇa says that "When I shows to somebody special favor, I take away all his possession." That is special favor.

This question was asked by Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, no, Parīkṣit Mahārāja, to Śukadeva Gosvāmī. Yasyāham anugṛhṇāmi, harer dhanam. Because here in this material world, the more we possess material wealth, it is our bondage. Ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). Because our bondage is we are entrapped here by material opulences. Material opulences are not very good for spiritual advancement. Just the Western people, they are materially advanced. They possess . . . they do not possess, but their energy is utilized for converting things from one shape to another, that much, the energy being wasted. It is good credit for you, materially, that you have so nice cars, nice skyscraper building, and so many nice things you have created. That is good credit—good credit materially. Spiritually, it is not good credit. Spiritually, it is waste of energy. Waste of energy. Because however nicely you have made all these material facilities, amenities, you cannot stay here. You cannot . . . you have got a certain amount of energy. So that energy is meant for some other purpose. So your energy not being utilized for the real purpose of life, if you utilize it for increasing your so-called material happiness . . . actually, they have not become happy. Otherwise, why so many young boys and girls, they are disappointed? Because this kind of advancement will not make us happy. That is a fact. Therefore, if you waste your energy for things which are not wanted, then you are not advancing, you are being defeated. That they do not know.

That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Parābhava. Parābhava means "defeat"; tāvat, "so long." All activities of the materialistic person are simply defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. Abodha. Abodha means fools, rascals, ignorant; born foolish rascals, ignorant. We are all born foolish. So if we are not properly educated, then we remain fools and rascals, and the activities of fools and rascals, this is simply waste of time. Because . . . what is called? Busy rascals. Busy rascal. If a rascal is busy, that means he's simply spoiling the energy. Just like monkey. Monkey is very busy. Of course, according to Mr. Darwin, they are coming from monkey. So monkey's business is simply waste of time. He's very busy. You'll find always busy. So the busy fool is dangerous. There are four classes of men: lazy intelligent, busy intelligent, lazy fool and busy fool. (laughter) So first-class man is lazy intelligent. Just like you'll see the high-court judges, they're very lazy and most intelligent. That is first-class man. They are doing everything very soberly. And the next class: busy intelligent. Intelligence should be used very soberly. And the third class: lazy fool—lazy, at the same time, fool. And the fourth class: busy fool. Busy fool is very dangerous. So all these people, they're busy. In this country—everywhere, all over the world, not this country or that country—they have discovered this horseless carriage—very busy (imitates cars' noise) "ons, ons," this way this way, this way. But actually, they are not intelligent. Busy fool. Therefore they are creating problems after problem. That's a fact. They are so busy, but because they are fool, therefore they are creating problems. This is fact.

Even the animals, lower than the human being, they have no problem. What is the problem? First of all, we have got some physical necessities. So āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. Our physical necessity is that we want to eat. That is necessary to maintain this body, āhāra. Nidrā, rest. We must have some rest also. So āhāra-nidrā-bhaya. Bhaya means being . . . "to become afraid of." That is material nature. We are always afraid of. Therefore we have military strength. Your country is very busy in that way, how to protect. Everyone should be, protection. We also sleep at night closing the door, because we are afraid of burglars and others, so many dangers. So that is also required, to take protection from enemies. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya, and maithuna, and sexual intercourse. These are physical necessities. So these physical necessities, if you study, they, amongst the animals, they have no problem. But as yesterday we were talking, in the human society they have created problem. Nobody knows where to eat. These hotels means, increase of number of hotels means that people have no place to live. They have no fixed place to live. Today in this hotel, the next day, another hotel. The so many restaurants means that people have no fixed place where to eat. The solution . . . in India still, because they are not so materially advanced, even the poorest man has got some certain fixed-up place, his cottage, he has got his wife, he has got his child, and he works, whatever he can do. He lives peacefully still, in the village, although he hasn't got very gorgeous dress and motorcar. But he's peaceful. You'll find still. And sometimes, say, about ten years ago, I was in Ahmedabad. I saw one poor man, he was pulling cart, hand cart. What is called?

Devotees: Rickshaw.

Prabhupāda: No, not rickshaw. For carrying loads . . .?

Devotees: Wheelbarrow.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, we call ṭhelā, in India. So the ṭhelā, in that cart there was sufficient load. So one side of the ṭhelā there was the wife, and the other side was the husband, and they had a little child, and that child was put up on the load. You see? And they were pulling. That means the husband and wife, working as God has given them to work. So they're working, taking care of the child. So after earning money, they'll go home. They have got a little cottage, and the wife will cook, the husband will eat, and they're peaceful. They're peaceful. It doesn't matter whether first-class eating, second-class . . . it doesn't matter. But still, they have got a home, and there they live peacefully. The wife cooks for the husband, and the husband eats, and the child is also taken care. It is not killed. There is peaceful. Peacefulness there is.

But here, the advanced civilization, the mother is killing the child, abortion. You see? Still, it is called advancement. Mother's duty is to take care of the child, motherly affection. Woman is meant for that. And now the problem is the mother doesn't want children. You see? And to avoid children, they are killing. Regularly they are killing. So what is the use of this civilization? Because you are becoming implicated in sinful activities, and therefore you'll have to be punished. You cannot escape the punishment of God as you can escape the punishment of the state. No. You have no right to kill even an ant without any purpose, without any sanction. So they do not know.

Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says, bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. Prahlāda Mahārāja, great devotee, so he was offered by Nṛsiṁha-deva benediction, "My dear Prahlāda, you have suffered so much for Me from your father's side. He has chastised you in so many ways because you are My devotee. Now your father is killed. That is finished. Now you take whatever benediction you want from Me." Prahlāda Mahārāja said: "My Lord, I have no problem, so why shall I ask You for anything? I have no problem." Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyāḥ: "Everyone has got problem in this material world. They're trying to overcome the problem. But I have no problem." Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyās tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ (SB 7.9.43). "I have no problem because my mind is always absorbed in glorifying Your Lordship. Therefore, I have no problem." Kīrtana. You'll feel immediately refreshed. However burden you may feel, as soon as you perform kṛṣṇa-kīrtana, you'll find immediately refreshed. So one who has got taste for this kīrtana, he has no problem. That is . . . Prahlāda Mahārāja says, Tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ: "Because my heart is always merged into the ocean of Your glorification, I have no problem." This is the devotee. Everyone goes to God to mitigate some problem that, "God, give us our daily bread." That means bread is a problem, and . . . that is the general tendency. They go to temple, church, to mitigate some problem. And as soon as the problem is finished, they forget God: no more church, no more temple. You see? That is not devotion. Devotion is that, "No problem. I am ready to serve You, my Lord." That is life. No problem. We should not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness or saṅkīrtana to solve some problem. No. That is not pure devotion. When you will feel that, "There is no problem. I am chanting, glorifying. So I am becoming merged into the ocean of bliss," that is perfect life. That is the symptom.

So that Prahlāda Mahārāja said that, "I have no problem." That is pure devotee. "Then . . . but you seem to be very unhappy. Why?" "Yes, still, I am unhappy." What is that? Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43): "I am unhappy for these rascals, these rascals. These rascals, they have created a huge mode of civilization for temporary happiness." Temporary happiness. That is not happiness. Māyā-sukhāya. Māyā, illusion. Just like you have created these skyscraper buildings. That's nice, very nice. Very good boy. Now, is there any guarantee that you shall be able to live here? Have you made any arrangement? Eh? Where is that arrangement? Just like, if you earn millions of dollars, but to keep that money, you keep in a safe custody, in a bank, so that you're assured that your money is safe and you'll be able to use it. Similarly, you have created this material civilization, very advancement. That is all right. But whether you have made any security arrangement that you'll be able to enjoy them? Is there any arrangement? Uh? This requires little brain. Because at any moment we may be kicked out of the situation. There is no guarantee. At any moment. Suppose with hard labor you create something for living. Everyone wants at old age to live very peacefully, comfortably; there must be some good bank balance, a very nice house. But what is that guarantee? That they do not understand. Therefore they are called abodha-jātaḥ. If after creating so many things for material enjoyment, if you are kicked out . . . but therefore they do not accept the next birth, whether it is very horrible. Because if they understand that, "I have done all these things by sinful activities, these material . . . and I'll have to suffer in my next life," they'll . . . they'll not do. But therefore they do not believe next birth or soul. They try to forget it.

This kind of forgetfulness means—I have already given several times—the rabbit, when they find some hunter, they close their eyes, yes, as if the hunter has gone away. But that is not the fact. That is his foolishness. Simply by closing the eyes, he's thinking, "Now I am safe." So these materialistic persons, denying the next birth, denying sinful activities, denying God, they're closing their eyes, that "There is no danger. Let us go on doing all this nonsense." But that will not save. That will not save. Every . . . (break) . . . not as a policeman but as a friend, that He is recording that, "You want to do it? All right, I'll give you this facility. I'll give you facility." Because within the mind you are creating so many ideas for enjoyment, Kṛṣṇa is noting, "Yes, you'll have it. You'll have it. Just wait. Next life, next life, next life." In this way we are going. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151). We are placing our program . . . because His name is anumantā. Without His sanction, you cannot have anything. Just like I am moving this hand. It is by His sanction. As soon as He stops His sanction, immediately paralyzed. And still, we are proud, "I have got my hand. I have got my eyes." What is the use of your eyes? Unless God helps you to see, what is the value of your eyes? Practically you see. Unless there is sunshine, what is the value of your eyes? So but still, we are so fool, we are thinking, "Can you show me God?" And what power you have got to see, first of all consider. Then you'll see God. You cannot see even what ordinary things, what to question of seeing God.

So this is called foolishness. He does not consider that "I am seeing under certain condition, and if still . . . I am so much proud of possessing my eyes." This is called foolishness, abodha-jātaḥ. And in the Upaniṣads it is said that, "When God sees, you can see." So your seeing is subordinate to the seeing power of God. Just like yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇām. When the God sees by His eyes, the sun, then you can see. As soon as the sun is not there, then where is your power of seeing? So why you are so much proud of seeing? No. That is not possible. In every respect, we are simply dependent on the mercy of God. So why not become directly dependent? That is intelligence. That is intelligence.

Therefore it is said, abodha-jāta. These rascals, who have no sense what is what, to understand—the atheist class of men, abodha-jāta—whatever they are doing, their so-called scientific advancement, material advancement, that is all their defeat, defeat, simply being defeated, simply creating problems. Even those problems are not existing in the society of birds and bees. You'll see. There may be big fire, but the birds are dancing in the street. They have no problem, because they are living under condition as they have been offered by God. Similarly, if we also live God conscious . . . ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Your only business is to inquire about the soul, about the spirit soul. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta-sūtra. This human life is meant for only inquiring about the soul. That is the only business. And besides this, whatever you are doing, you are simply being defeated, abodha-jāta, because you are all fools and rascals. And so long we'll make program how to become happy materially, your mind being absorbed in material things, not in the spiritual matter, you'll have to accept another body. This is your problem.

So Kṛṣṇa comes, His avatāra comes, His incarnation too. Because we are very thickly, intimately, related. We are sons; we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He . . . just like your father is always anxious to see you happy. If you are doing something wrong, he's more anxious than yourself. He knows that you are . . . a child is going to capture fire. The father, parents says: "No, my dear child, don't touch it. It is harmful." That is the duty, natural. So this, in this material world, we have come here, we are sons of God, part and parcel of God, and doing all nonsense. So Kṛṣṇa is not happy; therefore He comes, avatāra. Avatāram. He comes, "My dear child, why you are doing this?" And He advises, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up all this nonsense business. Come to Me. I shall give you protection." But we are so foolish rascal that we are prepared to become servant of the most abominable activities of our senses, but we are not prepared to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and become His servant.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya . . . (break)

Sudāmā: Any questions?

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, when we're chanting on the street and the people walk by and hear us chant or we give them prasādam or they give a small donation, to what extent is the benefit that they receive? They can go on walking by and hearing us chant.

Prabhupāda: The benefit is . . . just like the bank sometimes gives you a box, "Whatever little money you save, put it in this." And when it is filled up, it becomes a big amount. Similarly, these people, abodha-jāta, rascals, if they little appreciate, "Oh, these people are nice," that is one asset. This is called ajñāta-sukṛti, accumulation of the result of pious activities. And when one is fully pious, at that time he can understand what is God. So we are helping them, by and by, to advance in the matter of understanding God. This is our propaganda.

Bali-mardana: I believe I've heard you said in other lectures that a person who takes prasādam, even a plant or a . . . any kind of living entity who takes prasādam or hears the name, that it will come back at least to human form of life. Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: No, if he's devotee, then he'll come. But this taking of prasādam or hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is advancement for becoming a devotee. But if he takes prasādam not as ordinary prasādam . . . er, foodstuff, he believes that "This is remnants of foodstuffs given to God," if he understands this philosophy, then guaranteed. If he takes the prasādam as ordinary food, "All right, these people are distributing, prasā . . . let me take it. It is very tasteful," that will give him chance to accept prasādam next, next, next . . . in this way, one day he'll come to the point that "This prasādam is not ordinary foodstuff." Then he'll . . . there is guarantee. Because only the devotee can appreciate that, "This prasādam is not ordinary foodstuff. It is Kṛṣṇa's remnant of." Therefore, he understands Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma-karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). In truth, when he understands, then his life is guaranteed. Why guaranteed? He goes back to home next life. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If you simply can understand what is Kṛṣṇa and what is your relationship with Kṛṣṇa, that is sufficient to take you back to home, back to Godhead. That is sufficient. It is so nice.

Sudāmā: Any more questions? Śrīla Prabhupāda, you spoke about having a taste for hearing the kīrtana or being engaged in the kīrtana. Now, what is my position if I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and I'm living in the association of the devotees, or I'm taking prasāda, but I have no . . . I lose a taste or I have no desire, but for lack of having anything else to do, I remain. So what is my position? How . . .?

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's grace, that you have no anything to do. You have to do it. (laughter) That's a grace of Kṛṣṇa. Yasyāham anugṛhṇāmi hariṣye tad-dhanaṁ śanaiḥ (SB 10.88.8). Kṛṣṇa has taken away everything. You have no other alternative than to remain here. (laughter) That is Kṛṣṇa's special grace. And those who are thinking that, "We can do something else besides Kṛṣṇa," they are foolish. They are lost. Yes. But Kṛṣṇa is so kind upon you that He has placed in a certain circumstances that you cannot go out. That is very good fortune. Yes.

Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, how can one know whether he'll be going back home to Godhead in this lifetime?

Prabhupāda: Yes, believe in Kṛṣṇa. He gives His word. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says: "Anyone who understands Me in truth," tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti, "he doesn't accept any more material body; he comes to Me." That's it. The guarantee is there. So you try to understand Kṛṣṇa. If you do not understand anything more, if you simply accept it without any hypocrisy that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He'll protect me. Let me serve His lotus feet as far as possible," this much qualification is sufficient. But if you have got still doubt about Kṛṣṇa, then you try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Be without any doubt that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then your everything is guaranteed. Tattvataḥ. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Here? (devotees look for book) Eh? You should keep all these books ready for reference.

janma karma me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti kaunteya

(BG 4.9)

This very fact. So we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement just to make people . . . yes? Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ.

Pradyumna:

janma karma ca me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti so 'rjuna

(BG 4.9)

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage . . ."

Prabhupāda: He's already liberated. If one understands this fact, that why God comes, if he is fully aware of the fact, he's already liberated, immediately. Go on.

Pradyumna: ". . . and therefore he returns to the . . ."

Prabhupāda: Because without being liberated, one cannot understand God as He is. It is not possible, because he has no perfect vision. Liberated means perfect knowledge, perfect vision. That is liberation. Yes?

Pradyumna: "Therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately after giving up this body. The example is given in the śāstras that if, when you walk . . . just like the steps, like this. So this step is secure—the another step, when you feel it is secure, then you get up, get up this step. This is our practical experience. Similarly, unless our next birth is fixed up, we do not leave this body. At the time of death, by superior authority, what body I'm going to take next, that has to be decided. Then, when it is decided, if he takes little . . . because that is for the most sinful person. And for the devotee, it is already decided. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9)—immediately transferred to the spiritual world. Immediately. There is no question of decision; it is already decided, Kṛṣṇa's decision. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Therefore it is said: "A devotee . . ." Jīvo vā māro vā: "A devotee, either you live or die, the same thing." Why? "You are living, you are serving Kṛṣṇa. When you die, you go to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all." Jīvo vā māro vā. Therefore they are called jīvan-mukta. The same thing which he will do after death, he's doing the same thing here. Therefore he is jīvan-mukta, liberated even in this material existence. Jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate. Īhā yasya harer dāsye (Brs. 1.2.187): "One who is always thinking how to serve Kṛṣṇa," jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate, "he's jīvan-mukta." He's already mukta, liberated. Just like in government service there is civil service, or administrative service. As soon as you are . . . you have passed your examination of the civil service, the civil post is ready, immediately. There is no delay; it is already there. Simply you go and take your seat. So what is that examination? Just try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, that's all. If you can understand this very fact . . . so you understand or not understand, if you have firm faith, if you take Kṛṣṇa, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," then your examination is passed. Just like fire. You understand what is fire or not understand, but if you catch fire, it will act. When you take fire, you do not try to understand what is the chemical composition of fire. Anyone who understands the chemical composition of fire then takes to fire, that man, and a child who does not know what is the chemical composition catches, the action is the same. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through philosophy, science and everything that we have got, that is also the same thing, and if anyone blindly accepts Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. It doesn't matter. Because Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. Yes?

Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, you said that devotees, after becoming fully pious, have to take another birth in the material world and in somewhere where Kṛṣṇa is performing His pastimes, before going back to Vaikuṇṭha?

Prabhupāda: There is no difference, because you approach Kṛṣṇa. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar . . . mām eti: "He comes to Me." Kṛṣṇa, when He's there . . . just like Kṛṣṇa was on this planet. To live with Kṛṣṇa and to go to Goloka Vṛndāvana and to live with Kṛṣṇa, there is no difference.

Devotee (3): Is this birth we have now considered in Kṛṣṇa's pastimes? This saṅkīrtana movement is part of Lord Caitanya's pastimes?

Prabhupāda: I do not follow.

Satsvarūpa: Is this life, this present life, is this also being within Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, because Lord Caitanya's saṅkīrtana movement is Kṛṣṇa's pastimes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. If you actually remain with saṅkīrtana, that means you are with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's called jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate. He's liberated even in this body. He's liberated. Because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is not different. Absolute. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś caitanya . . . (CC Madhya 17.133). If you have understood that Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa are the same thing, that, you are always living with Kṛṣṇa, if you have understood this. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ. Kṛṣṇa is not different. Kṛṣṇa's book, Kṛṣṇa's words, Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa's fame, Kṛṣṇa's glory, Kṛṣṇa's entourage—everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa—that is Kṛṣṇa. But if you have got that perfect knowledge, then you are living with Kṛṣṇa, always. You are already in the Vaikuṇṭha.

Sudāmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, then if I have Kṛṣṇa's name and I understand that it is Kṛṣṇa, then can I take it and go to the forest?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Sudāmā: Can I take Kṛṣṇa's name and go to the forest and be . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you can go to the forest. That is your interest. But if you try to distribute Kṛṣṇa's name, that is more, I mean, valuable work. Because if you go to the forest, you take interest of yourself. But Kṛṣṇa wants that you take interest for others also. That is greater service. Just like a soldier, he's also patriot, and another man is patriot. But the soldier who goes to fight forward for the state, his service is greater than this man, because he has to face so many dangers for the country. Therefore during time of war, the government takes care of the soldiers first, and the civilians, their eating, their supply is controlled. But the soldier's supply is never controlled, because he is giving good, better service to the state. So you can go to the forest for your own interest. That is also good. But better work is to push forward Kṛṣṇa's name. That is better service.

Kṛṣṇa-caitanya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, does that please you more?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Kṛṣṇa-caitanya: Does that please you more?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will please Kṛṣṇa. I have already . . . na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Those who are in the preaching work, they are very much recognized by Kṛṣṇa. He says: "Nobody is dearer than him, one who is preaching, engaged in the preaching." You see in the Bhagavad-gītā. So those who have stopped preaching work and easy-going imitation, that is not very good. Because how far he's advanced? Because he goes to the forest and he'll think of woman and money, what is the use? By his action, it will be proved. The same way, taking rest, sleeping, and doing everything whimsically. So Kṛṣṇa knows everything. How can you cheat Kṛṣṇa by so-called forest-going? Because your enemy, your senses, have gone with you. So how you can get out by going to the forest? Because your real enemies are your senses. So the enemies you cannot escape. They'll force you again to these material activities. So what is the use of going to the forest? It is simply show, make-show. It has no value. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya . . . (break) (end)