760706 - Conversation E - Washington D.C.

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760706ED-WASHINGTON DC - July 06, 1976 - 87:27 Minutes

(Evening Darsana)

Prabhupāda: . . . cure the diseased condition of our existence, and then it will be cured. For that purpose, we have to execute austerity, penance, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena ca (SB 6.1.13). These practices are there. But there is one practice that is called bhakti. Kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parayanaḥ (SB 6.1.15). One . . . Vāsudeva-parayanaḥ, vāsudeva sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one understand that Vāsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is everything, then he becomes the greatest mahātmā. That platform is achieved after many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudeva sarvam iti. Vāsudeva is canvassing, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You just surrender to Me, I shall give you all protection." And one has to come to this position, vāsudeva sarvam iti. So one who is intelligent, he will take it immediately that bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), "After many, many births, if I have come to this position, that Vāsudeva is everything,' then why not accept Him immediately?" And that is intelligent. Why shall I wait for many, many births? I have got now sense, I have got this human body. Let me do it immediately. That is sense. And if you want to wait for many, many births to come to this conclusion . . . we can do that. That is our misfortune. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you take immediately, without waiting for many, many births. Don't wait. Now we have got human form of body, and here is opportunity, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), to take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why not do it now?

Indian lady: And it is sure to go through in this life if you try this hard?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is sure. He says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 18.66). It is sure. It is not speculation. It is fact. As soon as you surrender, you immediately become freed from all sinful reaction of life. And we suffer on account of sinful reaction of life. So intelligence is that "Here is the opportunity, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14), to get out of the clutches of the influence of material energy. Why not take it now?" That is wanted. Vāsudeva sarvam iti sa mahātmāh su-durlabhaḥ.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Swāmī, when you talk of Kṛṣṇa, sometimes when we talk with our friends here . . . (indistinct) . . . to ask you this thing, when you talk of Kṛṣṇa, do we mean that we are talking of Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata, or we are talking of the Kṛṣṇa the God, or the supreme head?

Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa God is the same person. Why do you differentiate? Why you are differentiating? My question will be how do you differentiate the Kṛṣṇa Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa God different? Because Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. That is a chapter in the Mahābhārata. So how do you differentiate? What is the cause that you are differentiating?

Guest (1): Well, I think that the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you think you have already explained. But where is the basis of your thinking like that? Because everyone knows the Mahābhārata battle was there, Battle of Kurukṣetra, that is a chapter in the Mahābhārata. And Kṛṣṇa is the speaker in that Battle of Kurukṣetra, and Arjuna is the fighter. How do you take away the Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata from the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra? What is your reason?

Guest (1): No, that is all right. Kṛṣṇa, we call . . . but do we take it, do you take it . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to take it, because there is no difference. As soon as you bring in Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa, the Kṛṣṇa is the same. You cannot take it differently. Because Kṛṣṇa is speaking to one of the parties of the fighter, the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, and that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Yuyutsavaḥ means two parties desiring to fight. Who are those parties? Māmakaḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva (BG 1.1). That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the Mahābhārata history. So how can differentiate this Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa? There is no possibility. It is imagination. The beginning is Mahābhārata and the Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (2) (Indian man): Swāmījī, excuse me for this, I read an article recently. One of my secretaries, he brought that article to me, it was written by Dr. Bannerji in India—he's a professor at Calcutta University. And he says that Kṛṣṇa and the Mahābhārata, the Kurukṣetra, that is all a visionation.

Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He's a fool. He does not know the facts, and he has posed himself as a learned scholar. That is the difficulty—fools and rascal presenting themselves as scholar and misrepresenting. People are being misguided. Because he is a learned scholar, you are citing his example.

Guest (2): Yes. Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: But he is a fool. He does not know what is Mahābhārata, what is Kṛṣṇa. And still, he wants to say something, that is his foolishness. He does not know, and still he wants to speak something. That is cheating. The cheating propensity is there for conditioned souls. He does not know one thing, still he wants to speak as authority. That is cheating. How you can differentiate? If you are actually student of Mahābhārata, then how we can differentiate the speaker in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra and Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is accepted there as Bhagavān. Whenever Vyāsadeva writes Kṛṣṇa statement, he writes bhagavān uvāca. He's Bhagavān, as well as He's a historical person in the Mahābhārata. He never writes kṛṣṇa uvāca, he writes bhagavān uvāca. And Arjuna admits, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣam ādyam (BG 10.12), "You are the Supreme Person." How can you differentiate Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa . . .? These are miscalculations.

Guest (1): No, sir, we didn't say that Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata; we said that when you read . . . I don't know, but what I read, you read the Vedic literatures, there comes some nirguṇa-brahman and saguṇa-brahman. Now my question . . .

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is paraṁ brahman. Kṛṣṇa is paraṁ brahman.

Guest (1): Yes, but my . . . (indistinct) . . . came, sir . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, the Brahman, there are . . . we are all Brahman, living entities. We are simply thinking "I am this body." So when we are . . . that I was speaking, liberation. When we come to the conclusion that "I am not this body," ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . so you are already Brahman, but you are, forgetfully, you are thinking that you are Indian. That is māyā. We are all Brahman, but due to our ignorance, lack of knowledge, we are thinking, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am this," "I am that." That is māyā. So when you actually understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," that is the fact. Then that condition is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Now we are jīva-bhūtaḥ. We are thinking, "I am individual person of this country, of this religion." That is jīva-bhūtaḥ. But when we understand that we are not jīva-bhūtaḥ, we are brahma-bhūtaḥ, that is our liberated position. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one becomes actually in understanding that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," then my all responsibility of this bodily connection immediately ceases. I am not this body. And why I am working for this body? Why I am in ignorance? That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati. That is liberated stage. So we are already Brahman. There is no question of becoming Brahman. We are mistaking something else that, "I am not Brahman." So when we come to the actual understanding, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu . . . (BG 18.54). Then he sees everyone on equal level, that every soul is Brahman.

vidyā-vinaya sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

(BG 5.18)

That is sama-darśinaḥ. He sees the same soul within a learned Brahmin and within a dog. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. That is the stage of bhakti.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param

(BG 18.54)

So when you come to the standard of bhakti, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). Unless you come to that stage, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa; you will mistake. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). This siddhi means to become liberated from the bodily concept of life. So out of many millions of people, one gets the opportunity of becoming siddha, brahma-bhūtaḥ, and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). And those who are siddhas, liberated, out of many of them, kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. So how this Mr. Bannerji will understand Kṛṣṇa? He is not a bhakta, he cannot understand. He can talk of the honey within the bottle. He cannot taste it. If he wants to taste, somebody must be able to open the bottle and give him little. Then he'll get. Otherwise, let him lick up the bottle. (laughter) That's all.

So those who are licking the bottle, they cannot say what is the taste of the honey. One must actually taste. That is possible, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). That taste is available by the bhaktas, not by the so-called scholars. That is not possible. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyaḥ (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 3.2.3). That is Vedic injunction. Na medhayā, na bahunā śrutena. You cannot realize self by your intelligence or by your learning or by your brain. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyaḥ na bahunā śrutena. So when the ātmā, Paramātmā, reveals Himself to somebody, he can understand. And that revelation is possible when you are a bhakta. Otherwise, it is not . . . it clearly says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). It never says, "By brain one can understand." Never says, "By speculation one can understand." No, this is not the process. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. In the beginning, He said kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Those who are siddhas, already liberated, out of them, many, many, still, they are unable to understand, tattvataḥ, in truth. But here He says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Only through bhakti one can understand in truth what is Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is not possible. Because one is scholar he can understand Kṛṣṇa, that is not the fact.

Mr. Deyani: But this paradox which is existing mostly in Vedas terms, that the form of the God is neti neti, and then they say that whichever people like Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they call it, is a . . .

Prabhupāda: They say! What they say, they have no value. Because if it is a fact that one can understand God through bhakti, so whatever bhakta says, that is value. What a nonsense says, it has no value. It has no value. "They say." First of all, you have to think what they are. Are they speculator or bhakta? Just like beginning of Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa said, bhakto 'si: "I am talking to you Bhagavad-gītā because you are My bhakta." So it is the subject matter . . . Bhagavān is the subject matter for the bhakta, not for others. Others, they will speculate only. They will never understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (3) (Indian man): Yesterday you said:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

(BG 4.7)

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is dharmasya glānir, that those who are not bhaktas, speculator, they are talking of God. This is dharmasya glānir. How they can talk of God? They cannot talk. Even they are talking, that is misleading, because nobody can talk of God unless you are devotee of God. You see? Bhakto 'si. Fourth Chapter. The subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā is to be understood by a bhakta, not by a speculator. (aside) Read it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ (BG 4.3).

Prabhupāda: Ah, "I am just talking to you that purātanaḥ, old yoga system, which I spoke to the sun god." "Why you are talking to me?" Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhakto 'si me . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhakto 'si me. He was not a Vedāntist, he was a soldier. So how the soldier can understand the highest topics of bhakti-yoga? Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). It is a yoga. How a soldier . . . Arjuna was not a Vedāntist; he was a fighter. There was a doubt, that "How a soldier can understand?" Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si: "You can understand because you are My bhakta." The first qualification: one must be a bhakta. Then he can understand. Otherwise it is not possible.

Mr. Deyani: How can then the God come in a human form, because human, when you talk of human body, it is a limited . . .

Prabhupāda: He does not come in human form. He is like human being, dvi-bhuja. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. He's . . . in the Bible it is said that man is made after God. The human being—two hands, two legs, this body they have got—that is the original form of God. But because He comes in that form, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11), they think that He is a man. His original form is like that. But because we are habituated to see two hands, two legs of human being, we take Him as human being. But that is His original form. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. (aside) Find out. So if we accept Him as a human being like us, then we are mūḍhā, rascals. He says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). They do not know what is behind this human form of life. God is omnipotent, almighty. He can take any form He likes. You cannot check Him. You cannot say: "How Brahman can come in human form?" Why He cannot come? If He is all-powerful, where is the difficulty? Taking your argument, if Brahman is all-powerful, then where is the difficulty for Him to come as human being?

Guest (2): No, there cannot be no difficulty. That is reasonable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if we take Him . . . just like here there are so many gentlemen, that here is a lawyer or here is a high-court judge, and if I take him, that he's also an ordinary man, that is my mistake. Even if he comes as ordinary visitor, still he's high-court judge. His position is not declined.

Guest (2): That, sir, we will have to accept.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa, even you take that He has come as human being, still He is Kṛṣṇa, He is God. That is explained.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā

mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam

paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto

mama bhūta-maheśvaram

(BG 9.11)

Translation: "Fools deride Me when I descend in this human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be."

Guest (2): Yes, but these type of statements have been made in all the other religions also. The prophet always speaks like . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, the prophet can speak. Prophet is representative of God.

Guest (2): Yes, it is like that, sir, just you said it is like a small pond and a big pond. No doubt, He is a big light. You cannot that thing, this thing. But what my confusion is, is this thing, that we have to, and a bhakta will also, with a limited sense, will never be able to go to that extent unless he has to surrender to some bigger power than him. And what I think . . .

Prabhupāda: That we, we take Kṛṣṇa as the bigger power.

Guest (2): Sure, we have to take. This is my . . . we have to take a bigger power. Otherwise . . .

Prabhupāda: So if we take Kṛṣṇa as bigger power, there is no controversy. Whatever He says, you have to accept.

Guest (2): No, we have to take it like this. Just like we have to take even some of this, any statement you make, we are going to take it because we think people of your status, who have experienced the life, which I didn't do, they are the authority on that thing.

Prabhupāda: No, if you accept Kṛṣṇa authority, then at least He is bigger than you.

Guest (2): Yes, sure. Not only authority on this thing. Because they have experienced, they have gone through that stage. And definitely we have to, because the . . . just like from a teacher a boy learns, and it is that method. You have to learn from a higher person.

Prabhupāda: Mmm, so you do accept Kṛṣṇa as the highest authority, and not only you accept, but all other authorities, they accept. (aside) Find out this verse: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

arjuna uvāca

paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma

pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān

puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam . . .

(BG 10.12)

Prabhupāda: Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum.

Prabhupāda: . . . ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

āhus tvaṁ ṛṣayaḥ sarve

devarṣir nāradas tathā

asito devalo vyāsaḥ

svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me

(BG 10.13)

Prabhupāda: So this is confirmation that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if we accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you have to accept Him as He says.

Guest (2): As a great power, yes.

Prabhupāda: Not great power, but greatest power. Nobody is greater than Him. That is accepted by the direct listener of Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna. And he is giving evidences of Vyāsadeva, Asita, Devala, Nārada—they are authorities. And in the recent years, the ācāryas Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have all accepted. And He speaks also. Then where is doubt? Where is doubt?

Guest (2): No, I just want to clear this thing. That thing I accept, sir, this thing that it is a great power, the supreme power.

Prabhupāda: Not a great . . . the great power. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). There is no more greater power than Him. That is His position.

Guest (2): My point is, sometimes this, a difference comes in this thing. Suppose a man of other religion says, okay . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not the question of religion. It is a question of God. God is great. That is accepted by all religion. So if Kṛṣṇa is the great, then He is God. Where is the argument?

Guest (2): Then they didn't come, just like you stated, that . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you have to study Kṛṣṇa, that where is the great, the only great. Then you'll understand. God is great, there is . . . no religion will differ in this connection. But if you find that, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the greatest," then you have to accept. There is no other argument. So I'll take a little time go to shower. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees and guests offer obeisances)

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda will be coming back in about five minutes. He's just going to the bathroom. (break)

(Prabhupāda returns) . . . original Back to Godhead.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We got it from Library of Congress.

Prabhupāda: So God is great. Now we have to analyze what is the greatness. A man is supposed to be great when he is very rich. A man is supposed to be great when he is very wise—man of knowledge, strength, reputation. So item by item, you analyze and see, you'll see Kṛṣṇa is the greatest, by reasoning. Therefore He is God. They have been analyzed. You'll find in The Nectar of Devotion, the Gosvāmīs have analyzed the characters of Kṛṣṇa, and they found Him the greatest. So if God is great, and if He is the greatest, then He is God. How can you deny it? At least, we can see in the Bhagavad-gītā, the little knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa, it is still standing as greatest. Five thousand years past, nobody could give such a book of knowledge throughout the whole world. The Bhagavad-gītā is studied not only by the Indians and the Hindus but by all scholars of the world. Even such persons who think that there is somebody greater than Kṛṣṇa, they also read Bhagavad-gītā and they recite from the Bhagavad-gītā. Even Śaṅkarācārya, the leader of the Māyāvādīs, he says Bhagavad-gītā kiñcid adhītā. Is it not? Does he not say?

Guest (3): Was it not true also Śaṅkarācārya, Swāmījī, who said vande kṛṣṇa jagat-guru?

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam . . .

Guest (3): . . . vande Kṛṣṇa jagat-guru.

Prabhupāda: So he's the leader of the impersonalists, he accepts kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Sa bhagavān svayam kṛṣṇa. Then what to speak of the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya? Rāmānujācārya has given Bhagavad-gītā comments, every line Vedic evidences. You read Bhagavad-gītā commented by Rāmānujācārya, you'll find every line he has quoted from Vedas. So there is no doubt about it. Simply one has to study very intelligently about Kṛṣṇa, then he will come to the conclusion that He is God.

Guest (4): I'd like to ask a question, but I'm a little bit timid about doing so, but I will ask it. It's this: would it be possible to think of . . . well, first I'd have to say that I tend to think of religions as personalities. Would it be possible . . .

Prabhupāda: Why?

Guest (4): All the religions.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why you think like that? You are not authority.

Guest (4): I merely say that I do. I don't say that I'm right to do so. I don't say why; I simply do.

Prabhupāda: This is due to our limited knowledge. Because I am a person, I have got my limited knowledge. I am thinking of God that, "If God is a person, then He has limited knowledge." That means I am bringing God to my level. That is my defect. We say God is all-powerful, almighty, still He cannot become a person. Why do you think that? If He is almighty, He can become person. Then why do you deny it?

Guest (4): Oh, I don't.

Prabhupāda: Then there is no question, you see.

Guest (4): But I still want to ask a question, not that it's a right question, but I do want to ask it. I'm not sure that I can formulate it, but it would be a little like this, maybe. Uh, uh, well, maybe I don't have to ask it. I'll skip it. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: No, you are Christian?

Guest (4): No. I am . . .

Prabhupāda: You are not Christian? Whatever you may be . . .

Guest (4): Would it be possible to say—this is my question I guess—would it be possible to say that all the religions are, as it were, aspects of the personality of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No. Our definition of religion is that religion is the word or the law given by God. That is religion.

Guest (4): Yes, but then there are these religions. There's more than one.

Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to agree on the principle. Religion means the word of God or the law given by God. That is religion.

Guest (4): But I go into a Catholic Church, and I feel a different environmental personality from the environmental personality I feel when I come here. Or, and, if I'm looking for God, which I think is here, I feel God, certainly I feel it very strongly, in your person—well, that's a brutal thing to say, but I do—and there it is.

Prabhupāda: That we have already explained. Because every living entity is part and parcel of God, so just like the particle of gold, the gold is there. There is no doubt about it.

Guest (4): Yes, but sometimes you feel it more than at other times.

Prabhupāda: There may be big particle or small particle. But particle there may be different sizes, that is another thing, but as soon as you get a particle, the gold is already there. Similarly, whenever you find any living entity, God is there.

Guest (4): That certainly answers my question then. It really does. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: And actually God is there with the living entity, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He particularly pointed out, "Here is God within their core of the heart." Now the yogīs, they try to find out God in his body. That is called meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). This is process of the yogīs, to find out God within himself. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also stated ekatvena . . . find out. So God is everywhere, there is no doubt about it. Within you, within me, within the atom, everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (BS 5.35). That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā also, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, "I am everywhere." So God is everywhere, that is God's omnipresence, omnipotency. But still God has His actual position. Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ.

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ

(BG 9.4)

So this is a great science. If we understand, then we can understand what is God, what is His position, how He is great, everything. That is His greatness. Although He is in His own abode, still, He is everywhere. That is His greatness. I am here, I am not in my bedroom, but about God it is said, goloka eva nivasaty akhilātmā-bhuto (BS 5.37). That is God. He is far, far away from our . . . this planet. There is a planet, goloka eva nivasaty. He's there, but still He is everywhere. That is His greatness. That is the distinction between Him and us. We are in one place, but we are not all-pervading. In another verse it is explained, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). Kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor The living entity is kṣetrajñāḥ, one who knows about his body. The body is called kṣetra, field, field of activities. I am working with this body. The cat is working with his body, dog is working with his body, mosquito is working with his body. The body is the field of activity, and the soul within the body is the owner of the body . . . or occupier of the body, not owner. So God is also with him. Therefore He says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. God is present along with the living entity, I or you, in everything. I know the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body, but God knows the pains and pleasure of your body, my body, his body, this body. That is the difference between God and you. These things are explained. (aside) Go on, read it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

kṣetra-jñam cāpi māṁ viddhi

sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata

kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ

yat taj jñānaṁ mataṁ mama

(BG 13.3)

Translation: "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion."

Prabhupāda: That is greatness. This is the distinction: God is great. I know about my body, you know about your body, but God knows about your body and my body and his body and every . . . that is greatness. That is explained. That is the distinction. I am small; He is great. I cannot think beyond the scope of this body, or little more but He knows everything. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). That is His greatness. So in this way, if we study the greatness of God, then we can understand what is God and what is not God.

Guest (4): Thanks.

Prabhupāda: What is the purport?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the living entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad-gītā, can attain to knowledge. The Lord says, 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies."

"The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state." (break)

kṣetrāṇi hi sarīrāṇi

bījaṁ cāpi śubhāśubhe

tāni vetti sa yogātmā

tataḥ kṣetrajña ucyate

(break) "This body is called the kṣetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam. That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti (nature), and puruṣa (the enjoyer of the nature) and īśvara (the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul). One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritaraṁ ca matvā sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri-vidhaṁ brahmam etat (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 1.12). There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller."

Prabhupāda: Therefore He is called Param Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). Everything is Brahman, but He is Param Brahman. That is accepted by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ brahma pavitraṁ (BG 10.12).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "In this chapter it will also be explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible, one is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misrepresents a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge."

Prabhupāda: He says: "I am also." Ksetrajñaṁ ca. Ca means "also." They are two: individual, kṣetrajñaḥ, and the collective, kṣetrajñaṁ ca. "There is kṣetrajñam, I am also there." They are two, not one. Ksetrajñaṁ cāpi ca api, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi. As soon as there is ca, "and," there are two. Not one. One is subordinate and one is supreme. Therefore He is addressed, paraṁ brahma. Brahma . . . jīva is also Brahman, but He is Param Brahman. Paramātmā: Jīva is also ātmā, but He is Paramātmā. Parameśvara: jīva is also īśvara, but He is Parameśvara. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). This is Vedic version. There are īśvaras, controllers, many controllers, but parama controller, Parameśvara, is Kṛṣṇa.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa kāraṇam

(BS 5.1)

That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, aham adir hi devanam . . . (BG 10.2).

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

(BG 10.8)

He is Param Brahma. He is the supreme great. You study, and then you will understand.

But without understanding, if we take that He is also human being, that is mistake. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mama bhuta-maheśvaram (BG 9.11): "He does not know what is My background, he's a mūḍha." Therefore mūḍha, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. We should not remain a mūḍha; we should be intelligent to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that is possible only through bhakti. Kṛṣṇa specifically mentions, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). He never says: "By jñāna, yoga, karma, one can understand Me." No. Bhakti. Bhakto si, "You will understand, Arjuna, because you are My bhakta." That is first qualification to understand Kṛṣṇa. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). A bhakta is submissive. And nondevotees, they are not submissive. They are so proud that they say: "I am Bhagavān. I am God."

So that attitude will not help to understand.

Prabhupāda: Aap kuch bol rahe the. (You wanted to say something?)

Indian lady: Aapse kuch poochna chah rahe the lekin hindi me poochongi. (I had been wanting to ask you something but I will ask in Hindi.)

Prabhupada: Poochiye. Ask.

Indian lady: Agar grrihastha hote hue . . . ka pehla kadam kya hai? (If you are a family man . . . what is the first step?)

Prabhupada: Are arjun khud grihasth tha, aap kyon darte hain. wo koi sanyasi thode hi tha usse bad ke kaun aadmi tha bhagavan ko samjhne ke liye. (Arjuna himself was a householder, why are you scared? He was not a renunciant. Who is greater than he to understand the Supreme Lord.) He says paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). He understands perfectly. There is no question of gṛhastha or sannyāsī. It is the question of understanding. And Arjuna is gṛhastha, politician, fighter, and still he is selected to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So gṛhastha. Hone se dar ka baat to nahi hai. (So there is no fear in remaining a householder.) In gṛhastha life or sannyāsī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that, kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya. Aap bengali samjhti hain. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu kehte hain. (Do you understand Bengali? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,) I shall speak in English so that others . . . Kibā vipra, whether one is a brāhmaṇa; kibā śūdra, or whether he is a śūdra; kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya, or whether he is a sannyāsī. That means whether he is a gṛhastha or brāhmaṇa or . . . there are eight varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha . . . whatever he may be, out of these eight categories.

kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya

(CC Madhya 8.128)

Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa perfectly, he is guru. Just like Arjuna, he is our guru, but he's a gṛhastha, he's a soldier, he's a kṣatriya. He's neither Brahmin nor sannyāsī nor Vedāntist, nothing of the sort. But he knows Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is guru. So gṛhastha Mane koi dar ka baat nahi hai. krishna ko samajhna chahiye. So householder means nothing is to be scared of, we have to understand Kṛṣṇa.

Indian lady: Iske liye kya pehla kadam hai? What is the first step for this?

Prabhupada: Sunanan chahiye. You must hear. Śravaṇam, this is the first step of bhakti. Hear about Kṛṣṇa from the right source. Otherwise you will be misguided. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to go to a person where you can surrender. Jab tak apko ye khayal ayega ki hum zyada samajhte hain tab tak apko milega nahi. As long as you have imagination, that I know everything—then you will not get Him.

Guest (3): How to . . .?

Prabhupāda: That we have to test, whether I can surrender to him. That you have to behave with him. Therefore according to system, one has to study before accepting somebody as guru, one has to study that, "Whether I can surrender to him?" If you think that, "No, I know better than him," don't accept a formal guru. That is mistake. And guru also will see, "He's appealing to me, he is going to accept my discipleship. Let me see whether he is qualified." Then there should be guru and śiṣya, not that as a fashion. Like Arjuna, Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru after talking with Him. (aside) Find out that verse, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam.

Guest (3): Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ.

Prabhupāda: When he was convinced that, "I do not find anyone else to give me instruction," then he surrendered.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ

pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ

yad chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me

śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam

(BG 2.7)

Translation: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me."

Prabhupāda: So everyone is perplexed condition. In this material world, you cannot find anyone who is not perplexed. Is there anyone who is not perplexed? Can anyone say that, "I am not perplexed"? (laughs) Everyone is. Therefore everyone requires guru. But a guru knows. Guru means like Kṛṣṇa or His representative. Yes?

Guest (4): Sir, you explained that Paramātmā is within everyone, every individual, human and animal alike, and you also explained that Paramātmā is within every atom, too, in the universe. Does that means that I have one Paramātmā plus about six trillion other Paramātmās in the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Paramātmā is the same. Paramātmā is the same. Not the Paramātmā within yourself is different from the Paramātmā within myself. The Paramātmā is the same. Just like the sun. If you put here millions of pots with water, in each pot you'll find the sun. But the sun is one. When the sun is on the head, you just phone your friend five hundred miles or five thousand miles away, "Can you tell me where is the sun?" He will say: "It is on my head." How it is possible? Everyone will say, "Now the sun is on my head." That is Paramātmā. He is one, but everyone will say: "He's within me, over my head." That is Paramātmā. Paramātmā is one, but He is everywhere. That is Paramātmā. And I am ātmā, I am only here, that's all. That is the difference. He's not different. Because He is within the core of the heart of a dog and within the core of the heart of a human being, He is different? No. He is the same. Therefore, paṇḍitāḥ samaḥ darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).

Guest (4): What about the other atoms within me or the dog? Do you understand what I'm getting at? There are millions of atoms.

Hari-śauri: He's saying this body is comprised of atoms, so the Paramātmā is present within this body alongside the individual soul that's operating this body. But there's also millions of other atoms, and Kṛṣṇa is also within the atoms as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (4): I thank you.

Vipina: Mr. Deyani brought a person that he studies under one time to meet me at the temple, and he took a very remote verse out of the Bhagavad-gītā about sacrifice, and his idea is that to perform yajña is the way to purify the universe in this age of Kali-yuga, and Deyani was very supportive of him. So I was wondering maybe you could explain a little.

Prabhupāda: Now yajña means . . . what does it mean, "By yajña"?

Mr. Deyani: Swāmījī, he says that whole Vedic religion is in five: yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma-śraddhāya.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā: yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat (BG 17.24).

Mr. Deyani: Yes, he said that. Now he brought one more point, this thing, he says all the world over people have forgotten. Early morning we do . . . he says yajña has many meanings, but he says yajña means to burn the cow ghee in the fire, and this fumigation, he gives here certain purifies the atmosphere, and thus, if you do it at the right time in the morning, when the sun—there is some time which he gives—and in the evening, he says you will yourself see that your mind changes, your what you call as praṇa, it affect your praṇa, and then it affects your mind, and if you are complexed or angry, your problem, you will try to understand yourself by yourself. Once you do, he says it's just a physical aid, it is not any spiritual thing, but this is a physical aid. And that is what our . . . there are, many Americans are doing here this program. And he gives a very nice scientific background of that thing, which convinces me that what we Hindus, what our Vedic literature, what they have said, it has some scientific meaning behind it, why we did it.

Prabhupāda: But the thing is, accepting his statement, first of all, where is ghee?

Mr. Deyani: Well, in this country you can get, sir.

Prabhupāda: In this country, but there are places there is no ghee. Then how you will perform it? Your first proposition is ghee, but where is ghee? It is all dalda. Now how you can perform yajña? I am talking as a matter of argument. If ghee is not available, then how yajña will be performed?

Mr. Deyani: That is actually the question when I first met him. (laughter) I asked him, really, that's what I told him . . .

Prabhupāda: Then his proposal is failure. Now you have to take the instruction in the Vedas, that,

kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ

tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ

dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ

kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt

(SB 12.3.52)

In the Kali-yuga, the real yajña is hari-kīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Sumedhasaḥ, those who have got good brain, they perform this yajña, hari-kīrtana. So there is no condition. God has give you the tongue. Either you are here or there, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ.

Indian lady: Is number important in chanting? Number? It has to be certain number, or you can just chant?

Prabhupāda: Number? Yes, number of course. No. Actually, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31), always to be chanted. But because you cannot do that, therefore you must fix up a number. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka that, "I must chant so many times." That is determination. I have prescribed to my disciples that, "You must chant at least sixtes very easy. But there is saṅkhyā. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. The Gosvāmīs, they used to do that. So it is . . . otherwise, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. The chanting should go on twenty-four hours. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura used to do. He was simply chanting. But that is not possible for ordinary man. Therefore they should have a fixed up, that "I must chant so many times." That will fix up the determination. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). There must be some dṛḍha-vratāḥ that, "I must do it." Then the devotion grows very firm. If we become lenient, "All right, I shall do later on . . ." No, must be done. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Everything should be determined. Then spiritual progress will be rapid.

Mr. Deyani: So many, when we go to our offices, since we come from India, naturally the very intelligent young boys and girls, they ask various question to us. And just for the sake of their curiosity, naturally they ask the question about the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we try to explain our ways, whatever we know. What explanation we have got when they put the example of, you know, that sixteen-year-old guru and something like that kind of things? What explanation we have got in that circumstance? In that circumstance, what explanation we have got as an individual for the Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This young boy guru, when they bring up this subject matter to the Indians who have come from India who are working here in America, they feel a little embarrassed . . .

Mr. Deyani: That's true.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . a loss for words or explanation what to say, that this is their Indian culture. They feel they don't know how to represent themselves.

Mr. Deyani: How to represent the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? This is my question. How to represent it? What to say to them?

Prabhupāda: What is your question? That means you do not know about him.

Mr. Deyani: We don't know about those gurus . . .

Prabhupāda: You say: "I do not know about him," that's all. The simple truth that, "I do not know about him." Why you are very serious about him? He is not very important man.

Mr. Deyani: I even don't know who is he. (laughter) To tell you the truth, I even don't know. (laughter) My wife, she sometimes watch him on the television. There was a program or something like that, that now we . . . I don't watch that anymore.

Prabhupāda: He is not important man.

Guest (2): Swāmījī, you just said about the guru, in the Bhagavad-gītā, again after He is explaining to Arjuna all what He said, then ultimately he comes and he says—which the problem in our practical life comes which I see, I see it with me—he spoke very frankly, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham (BG 6.34).

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?

Guest (2): After, you know, the Kṛṣṇa has explained to Arjuna all the religion and spirituality, and still a man of the caliber of Arjuna speaks, then he said, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa balavad, that verse.

Prabhupāda: That is said in the Sixth Chapter (BG 6.34).

Guest (2): That comes in practical life. One might even say that you try to go to a spiritual area, then all these things do come in everybody's life.

Prabhupāda: No, that was spoken in connection with practicing yoga.

Guest (2): But Arjuna got it due to guru, like Kṛṣṇa means is it possible in this age if one has the right guru, a man, he can elevate himself?

Prabhupāda: You can take Arjuna as guru. Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2). He directly listened to Him. And he's guru therefore, because the guru is by the paramparā. So he understood Kṛṣṇa. So you take Arjuna's instruction. Make Arjuna your guru. What does he say? He accepts Kṛṣṇa, Param Brahman. So we accept Kṛṣṇa as Param Brahma. Where is the difficulty? Arjuna, by his direct experience talking with Kṛṣṇa, he understood Him that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are Param Brahman." So you take the words of Arjuna and accept Him as Param Brahman. Where is the difficulty? Just like the same example, one lawyer giving example, the judgment of other court. That is accepted. So Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as Param Brahman. So why don't you accept? Where is the difficulty? You accept Arjuna as your guru, and whatever he says, you accept it.

The difficulty is that we do not accept guru. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, where is difficulty? Five thousand years, Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna, but what Arjuna understood, that is there. So you accept it. What we are doing? We are accepting, that's all. Kṛṣṇa said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior truth beyond Me." We are accepting, that's all. Where is the difficulty? But if you do not accept, who can make you to accept? It is not possible. Kṛṣṇa therefore said, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, "You do it." He never forces him. He's God—He can force, "You must do it." No, He doesn't say: "You do it." Not only that, He says, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, you do." What is that verse?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Iti te jñānam . . .

Prabhupāda: Iti te jñānam, huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ākhyātam.

Prabhupāda: Ākhyātam, "I have spoken to you everything about knowledge." Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā.

Prabhupāda: Guhyād guhyataram. "Jñānam confidential, more confidential, I have spoken to you, one after another." Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa.

Prabhupāda: "Now you consider, vimṛśya. Aśeṣeṇa, without any doubt, fully consider it." Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yathecchasi . . .

Prabhupāda: Yathecchasi tathā kuru, full liberty. He never says that, "You must do it." No, He never forces. "I have spoken to you everything of all knowledge. Now you consider it, deliberate deliberately. Then you decide yourself what to do." The liberty is given. "But My opinion is sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is My opinion. You do it. Otherwise, you do whatever you like." This liberty is there. "But if you, as you are My friend, then I give you the most confidential knowledge." Sarva-guhyatamam. Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So it is open to everyone to accept or not to accept. But if you want Kṛṣṇa's opinion, then there is opinion, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Now it is up to you.

Guest (5) (Indian man): Swāmījī, perhaps you can . . . when people ask about that Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is only limited to a few full-time devotees, I had expressed . . . now in Gītā, it is expressed, now read the words according to basic extents to even people who follow and accept Kṛṣṇa to practically everyone, to everyone.

Prabhupāda: Who? Everyone? Everyone is Kṛṣṇa? No?

Guest (5): To all the people who want to accept Movement.

sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ

sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ

yathā vandati tac chṛṇu

(BG 18.45)

Anybody who wants to accept Kṛṣṇa and Gītā, he is part of, and he can be a part of, the Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest (5): He can be a part of the Kṛṣṇa movement, with whatever, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ (BG 9.26).

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you read next.

Guest (5): Next one?

yataḥ pravṛttir bhūtānāṁ

yena sarvam idaṁ tatam

sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya

siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ

(BG 18.46)

Prabhupāda: Sarva-karmaṇā?

Guest (5): Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya. (pronounces incorrectly)

Prabhupāda: Vaca?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Abhyarcya, that is the important word. Sarva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Whatever engagement you may have, with that engagement you abhyarcya, just worship Him.

Guest (5): Tam abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Abhyarcya means worshiping.

Guest (5): Tam abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Tam abhyarcya, yes. So tam, the Supreme, He who worshiped. And He is the Supreme. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So in any position, if you worship Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right.

Guest (5): But is that correct?

Prabhupāda: That is the correct, yes.

Guest (5): So after giving all this in the chapter eighteen, then He points out that despite all these things.

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that the best thing is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66).

Guest (5): . . . mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja.

Prabhupāda: But if you cannot do that, then in your position you can also abhyarcya, you can worship Him. And especially in this age, whatever position you are, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is abhyarcyana. He Kṛṣṇa, he Hari.

Guest (5): Worship Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is worship. This is worshiping, "Engage me in Your service." Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He was simply chanting. He was doing nothing. So simply . . . you are engaged as professor. You go on with your professorship, but chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the loss? Rather, your students will learn, "Oh, he is such a big professor, he is chanting. Let me chant." You'll be preaching at the same time.

Guest (5): I'm a bureaucrat, no longer a professor.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be . . . because yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If a chief man practices something, the followers also practice. So a businessman, professor, scientist, philosopher, they chant the holy name of God, there is no taxation, no income tax, but the income is very good. (laughter) So why people do not do it?

Guest (5): (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained by Caitanya:

nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis

tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ

etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi

durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ

(CC Antya 20.16, Śikṣāṣṭaka 2)

The holy name of God is so powerful, as good as God. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā, He has got thousands of names, hundreds of names, and each name is invested with the power of God Himself. So in this age this chanting of holy name of God is recommended, I can take advantage of it, but I am so unfortunate I have no inclination. So easy thing, so still I am so unfortunate I do not wish to take the name of God. This is stated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Etadṛśi tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi: "Bhagavān, my Lord, You are so merciful that I can be direct connection with You simply by chanting Your holy name. You have given this facility in this age, and still I am so unfortunate I am not inclined." Tam abhyarcya. We are not inclined to worship. That is the defect. When there is question of worshiping Him, so many things we bring in, not to worship Him, just to counteract the proposal. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34), so we bring all kinds of argument how to not to become a bhakta. That is our misfortune. He says: "You become My devotee," and we are putting arguments, how not to become His devotee. That is our misfortune. We bring all arguments. This is misfortune.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's 8:30. Want to finish up?

Prabhupāda: What is your question?

Vipina: I was talking to Dr. Diksha and I was explaining to him that if he was unable to chant or to become full-time devotee, that your program for a person in that condition of life was something like Life Membership program, whereby he could become a member of the Society, maintain his occupational duty, but become a member and take books and read and try to understand gradually that way. Is that satisfactory, if they can maybe do that much, that would be . . . some way they would be serving Kṛṣṇa to your satisfaction?

(Prabhupāda laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are taking so much labor in writing books. If somebody reads, certainly that is satisfaction. (laughter)

Rūpānuga: It is to their benefit, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they read.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am writing for reading by others.

Rūpānuga: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

(aside:) What time is the initiation? . . . (indistinct) (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . our temple early in the morning at about seven o'clock Śrīla Prabhupāda will deliver a lecture and also there will be a sacrifice, very ancient sacrifice performed, which is formal initiation of becoming disciple of spiritual master, and you are welcome to come by. It is a very colorful and beautiful ceremony. So this will take place tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. here in the temple. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rūpānuga: Thank you. Haribol! (end)