730804 - Conversation - London

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Go-previous.pngConversations by Date, 1973
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



730804R1-LONDON - August 04, 1973 - 151:17 Minutes



(Conversation with Mr. John Papworth and Mr. E. F. Schumacher)

Revatīnandana: So Mr. Papworth you know, and Mr. Schumacher will be up in a second.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you came here before.

Revatīnandana: Yes, that's right.

Prabhupāda: How are you?

Mr. Papworth: My invariable reply, sir, is that I am dying slowly. I trust you are well, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Old man, (laughs) struggling. Spiritual consciousness is not dependent on material impediments.

Mr. Papworth: I'm not hearing these beautiful words.

(pause)

Revatīnandana: He remarked that the spiritual consciousness is not impeded by material impediments—like the body.

Mr. Papworth: I discovered that when I was a cook. I used to have to peel a huge bathful of potatoes every day, hours and hours, and it became that I could peel the potatoes without being aware that I was handling them. And my mind was roaming, disembodied almost from any encumbrance. But this is not the same as meditation, I'm sure, as you see it.

Prabhupāda: What is your idea of meditation?

(someone enters) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Revatīnandana: Sit over here.

Vicitravīrya: This is Dr. Schumacher.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming. I have read some of your ideas. So from your writing it appears you are nice, thoughtful man. Muni. The Sanskrit word is muni. Just like Nārada Muni. They are very thoughtful. So I have read one description of "Crisis of Increasing Motorcars" in this paper. Actually, we are creating crisis. This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis.

One Vaiṣṇava poet, he has sung, sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye vilāsa (Gaurā Pahu). Sat-saṅga means spiritual association. So we have given up spiritual association, and asatye vilāsa, we have taken to material enjoyment. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu . . . there are two things: material and spiritual. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye . . . "I have given up spiritual association, and I have taken to material association.

Therefore I have become entangled." Sei karaṇe lāgilā mora karma-bandha-phāṅsā. We are becoming more and more entangled in material activities. We are trying to solve one problem, and creating another big problem. Just like I was reading the "Motorcar Crisis." We thought that with a horseless carriage it will be very convenient to travel. But against that convenience, so-called convenience, we have created so many inconveniences. It is very nicely described in that paper I was reading.

Revatīnandana: Was it this one?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: (to guest) It's a reprint, "Economics of Permanence," your essay.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Revatīnandana: It's called "The Economics of Permanence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "The Motorcar Crisis"?

Revatīnandana: Is it mentioned in that essay? I think it must be a different location.

Vicitravīrya: I think it was in one of the Resurgence magazines, perhaps.

Prabhupāda: Heh?

Vicitravīrya: It was in one of the magazines I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Here.

Mr. Papworth: The one on Buddhist economics.

Dr. Schumacher: No, it was the other one. This is "The Economics of Permanence."

Mr. Papworth: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (looking through magazine) "Cars, Profits and Pollution." I was just reading this article, "Cars, Profits and Pollution." So this one side, we make profit; another side, we make pollution.

Dr. Schumacher: That's it.

Prabhupāda: This is the material . . . result of material activities. Whatever you do. Anything you do material, is same. In one side, you see, "Oh, there is so much profit," and another side, you'll see so much pollution. Therefore the remedy is to act for spiritual realization. Then you will avoid pollution. The remedy is. If you . . . that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, in the Third Chapter, how we can work for spiritual realization and avoid the pollution of material activities. This is the sum and substance of Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā, we do not avoid the material activities, but we become free from the material pollution. This is the secret of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Mr. Papworth: How do you envisage one should act, if I may ask that?

Revatīnandana: He said, how do you envisage that one should act. How should one act? He's asking.

Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya, a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that, "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he become perfect.

So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it, but we say purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible.

Mr. Papworth: It's possible to what?

Prabhupāda: Purify.

Mr. Papworth: Purify the pollution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Papworth: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). So everything should be done—that is called karma-yoga—in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is doing. He did not change his position as a fighter, as a warrior. But he acted according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is recognized, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3): "You are My dear friend. You are My devotee." This is the process. So we have to purify. We cannot stop. That is not possible. The progress which is going on, let it go. But let it go . . . we do not want that, but it has come so far, it is not possible to stop it. But here is the remedy. You can purify it.

Mr. Papworth: What means do you suggest for purifying it?

Prabhupāda: The means is that . . . our process is that wherever we go, we perform saṅkīrtana, chant the holy name of God. That purifies, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It doesn't matter where it is. Even if we . . . we can go to the factory. Anywhere. We can go to the hell even. By . . . but this process, it is a very simple thing, chanting the holy name of the Lord. So what possible objection can there be? Suppose if we go to a motorcar factory, and we ask them, "Please give us some chance. We shall chant here the holy name of the Lord," what their . . . what is the possible objection? You are very thoughtful man. You can say.

Dr. Schumacher: I don't see the point.

Prabhupāda: Eh? There cannot be any objection.

Dr. Schumacher: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So let us get this chance. Simple method. So we'll go. Let us go everywhere, hell or heaven. It doesn't matter. Let us have this chance and speak something about God. That's all. And we don't want anything from you in exchange that, "You give us some money." No. We don't want. If you give us something, welcome. It will be used for Kṛṣṇa's service. But we don't demand anything that, "First of all give me a hundred dollars, then I shall go." No. So . . . from the other side, there is no loss. But if they give us the chance for prosecuting, for pursuing, this Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement, everything will be purified.

Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). All problems will be solved. This is the beginning. Now, gradually, as people understand this philosophy, they will understand. They will understand. If they simply give us the chance. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Let them remain in their position. We don't disturb. We don't disturb. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Simply they will kindly give their aural reception what we are speaking.

Mr. Papworth: Well, the diagnostic's not altogether clear to me how the chanting is going to affect the pollution. How do you see . . .?

Prabhupāda: It is a purificatory process. Pollution means impure. So if you purify, then there is no more pollution. Just like infection. You have got some disease, infection. If you give some vaccine to purify the body, the infection is gone. It is like that.

Revatīnandana: It seems that there's a difference in the usage of this word "pollution."

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Revatīnandana: I think there's a difference in the way the word "pollution" is being used.

Prabhupāda: Yes, whatever meaning you may do . . .

Revatīnandana: So, for instance, if it is used to indicate air pollution . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: . . . then how will the chanting will affect that?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it will affect.

Revatīnandana: He's asking how.

Prabhupāda: How? That you do not know. You'll have to realize when you give us the chance. But if you give us the chance, there is no loss on your part. But you'll practically see how it is rectified, how it is . . .

Vicitravīrya: Pollution is to some extent a result of materialistic activity?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Vicitravīrya: The pollution, is it to some extent the result of material activity, which will cease when the spiritual . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. What is material activity, what spiritual activity is, these are to be understood. But we are sure, if simply this chance is given, anywhere, let us execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and speaking something from this Bhagavad-gītā. We are getting practical result. Just like you were describing that in Communist country.

Haṁsadūta: Ah . . .

Prabhupāda: You just explain to them.

Haṁsadūta: They have a big youth festival there in East Berlin. Maybe you know? "The Festival of Youth."

Mr. Papworth: Yeah.

Haṁsadūta: So they have invited youth from all over the world to come and see what they are doing there. So some of our devotees went there just the past week. And they reported to me that at every moment during the day that they were there they were surrounded always by at least three hundred young people who simply stood taking notes and asking questions about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what they are doing. That means that there is some dissatisfaction. They want something. They want something substantial. And they're getting it from Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This philosophy is substantial. It is practical. They are hankering for it. Their so-called Communist philosophy is not perfect. It's imperfect.

Mr. Papworth: They were Communist youth who were surrounding?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Mr. Papworth: The people.

Haṁsadūta: Yes. They were surrounding our devotees and asking questions and taking notes and taking addresses.

Mr. Papworth: But the people who are at the conference are not all Communist youth, are they?

Haṁsadūta: Well, whoever they may be, they've gone there with some interest about Communism. Otherwise, they would not go there. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect communism, Prabhupāda always explained, because, huh, Communism, so-called Communism, they give advantage only to the human being, but not to the animals or the other living beings. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is pure, genuine, absolute communism, because we recognize that the Supreme . . .

Everyone should work for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme head of state, and everything is utilized for His purpose, His service. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, you do it for Me." The same philosophy . . . Communist philosophy is, "Everyone works for the state; the state will distribute." Right? So . . . but it's imperfect. But here is the perfect thing. Kṛṣṇa, He is the supreme creator, He's the proprietor. Therefore everything must be used for His pleasure. Then it becomes perfect communism.

Prabhupāda: Instead of making the state center, make God center.

Mr. Papworth: Do you think that the Christian monasteries practiced this in the past, or perhaps even today?

Haṁsadūta: Well, today, no one is practicing it. Otherwise why people are leaving the Church? No one is in the monastery, no one is in the church. They are abandoning it. Because there is no center. As soon as there is a center, it will carry weight. Just like a wheel. If there's a hub, if there's a hub, then it will carry weight.

Mr. Papworth: I have not abandoned the Church. I have embraced it.

Haṁsadūta: Anyway, our point is . . . we're speaking in general. In general, because the center, factually the center, God, is missing, somehow or other, He's missing, therefore people are also giving it up. They can't take it. Because it's not practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is practical. It's not a sentiment or a dry philosophy. It's a practical philosophy of life, absolute philosophy of life, how to do everything without any pollution, without any contamination.

Just like we are experiencing by our so-called advancement that we have created so many modern facilities for comfort, but the result is, alongside, simultaneously, there's an equal disadvantage. Just like we create a motorcar, but we create air pollution. Or you create a highway, but you have to create snowplow to clear the highway. You have to create police. You have to create so many other things.

Prabhupāda: And there is list of accidents, injuries.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Revatīnandana: And just like yesterday, Mahādeva's parents came here. His mother came here, along with a Jesuit family priest, about sixty years old. And she accused us that we had come and kidnapped him out of the university. And we said, "Actually, we didn't kidnap him. He came to our temple and didn't want to go away," which is what happened. She said, "Well, that's because he took some LSD and he had a false religious experience."

So then I asked the Jesuit priest, "If your religious experience is as pure" as he had just been saying, "then why was this boy, trained up in a Jesuit school, seeking after spiritual life from a false religious process? Why was he taking LSD in the first place if his religion was satisfactory?" And he couldn't answer. He said, "Well, there seems to be some kind of a spiritual," what did he say, "a spiritual lack or a spiritual . . ."

Haṁsadūta: Vacuum?

Revatīnandana: ". . . spiritual something at this time, spiritual lack at this time for some reason." But he would not define it that he was unable to fill that spiritual lack by his process. And yet we have filled that lack, or rather our spiritual master has filled that lack for thousands of young people now, who are not only God conscious, but they're practicing it every minute of every day. And they're practicing it practically, in the city or in the community or in the farm or wherever they are. So it's not that we're contesting the origins. The origin from Christ may have been very pure, but its present manifestation appears to be lacking something. And the young people are seeing that.

Prabhupāda: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer.

(pause)

Revatīnandana: How does the . . . how does the process of animal slaughter in the slaughterhouse as we find it today, how does it fit into your philosophy for, huh say, changing the society? Where do you put that in your philosophy?

Dr. Schumacher: Well, I think one should try and do without it. You can't everywhere do without it. It's like all nonviolence. It's a direction of movement, to try to do your utmost to go as far as . . .

Revatīnandana: So wherever possible, the slaughtering business should not go on.

Dr. Schumacher: That's right. But the Eskimos, for instance . . .

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Dr. Schumacher: That's what I was saying, you see.

Prabhupāda: When there is no food, so human life is more important than animal life. So the human life should be saved at the sacrifice of animal. That is another question. But where there is complete facilities to get very nice, nutritious food, why these poor animals should be killed?

Dr. Schumacher: Sure.

Revatīnandana: But in the last week we've had a Jesuit priest, a Black Friar's monk, several other theologically inclined Christian gentlemen have been here, and not one of them has assented to that statement. They do not agree. They think that . . .

Prabhupāda: They do not agree that animal killing is sinful. They do not agree.

Dr. Schumacher: It's a very long question, isn't it? I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it is a simple question. Killing . . . do you think killing is very good business? Then why it is forbidden, "Thou shall not kill"?

Dr. Schumacher: No, but sometimes protection is necessary.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Generally, you should not kill. But when there is absolute necessity, that is another thing. But generally, this killing process you cannot support, and at the same time, you want to make the society purified. You commit sinful activities; at the same times, you want to purify. How it is possible?

Dr. Schumacher: I think a society can survive, and spirituality can survive, even among meat-eaters. It's much more difficult, I imagine, that a society can survive which has animal factories. Now, I would be much more interested whether we can get our friends the Dominicans, the Jesuits, to agree that this kind of treatment of animals is just, uh, beyond the pale. This would be, in the European context, I think, a better test than to challenge the habit of meat-eating, which is also intergrown with all sorts of assumptions. I mean there is the ruling assumption that you need it, which I challenge and you challenge.

Revatīnandana: See, the habits are one thing. If we understand that it is an undesirable habit, then it can be changed. All of us are from meat-eating backgrounds, almost without exception. We've all strictly stopped. We've stopped taking intoxicants, we've stopped gambling and we've stopped illicit sex life, although we were habituated to doing these things, because we came to understand that it was necessary for the advancement of our spiritual life.

But the difficulty is that somebody who is so much engrossed in this kind of life, who has made it a pillar of his life, and that by the psychological effect of such habits, he comes to the stage of being so stony-hearted that he does not see the miserable suffering he's putting the animals to unnecessarily. He has no sense for it. Even if it's graphically described to him . . . I described it to this monk about how conscious the cow is compared to, say, the cauliflower. He couldn't see any difference. No distinction.

Mr. Papworth: I'm sorry. Distinction between what?

Revatīnandana: The distinction between killing a cow and cutting off a cauliflower from a plant. He said: "Both are alive." Yes, both are alive. But what is the psychological state of a cow, and what is the psychological state of a cauliflower plant? Practically speaking, he has no psychology—no senses, no mind, no ability to feel elation or suffering. But a cow is a completely different condition. Cow is very nearly to human consciousness. Practically the next birth after a cow, according to the Vedas, is a human birth. You're putting so much suffering unnecessarily. But he had no sense, not . . . An intelligent man who can sense that, "If I suffer, I don't like it," then when he sees another living entity put into suffering, he thinks, "How I could avoid that suffering for that living entity, because I don't like to suffer." But this gentleman had no conception. He's . . .

Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Chandragupta. So he was honorary prime minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat: "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it.

So mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualification, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestation: treating all women as mother; treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat.

So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principle? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. Similarly, if you want to purify the whole society, the first principle should be like this, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says:

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ

Women should be treated as mother. They should be given protection. They should not be advertised for prostitution. All living (beings) should be given protection. This is the government's duty. A king's duty is government duty, that anyone who has taken birth on the land, he must be protected; it doesn't matter whether he's human being or animal or tree. So these are the process of purification. If you don't adopt the process, simply you think the counterside only, there is no wor . . . so this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will purify the whole situation. Therefore you expect.

Mr. Papworth: I wonder if I could put the point which Dr. Schumacher has made somewhat more forcefully, if possible. I am surprised that in the exchange the point he made is not taken and answered. What is at issue is that in your beliefs you are saying it is wrong to kill an animal. It is possible—I don't say this to justify the killing of animals—but it is possible for an animal to be killed by a man in a way that involves far less suffering to the animal than it would die in its natural state.

But what seems to be such an infinitely greater evil, an infinitely greater crime against the natural order is, for example, to take one chicken and put it in a cage the size of a shoebox, and then add two more chickens to it, and then keep them there for the whole of their short natural life, unnatural life. But it seems to me and, I think, to Dr. Schumacher, that this is an abomination of the spirit far greater than the mere killing of animals. But if it . . . it seems to be an insult against creation to treat the animal life in this manner. And yet, you do not appear to be shocked by it as you are shocked by the mere fact of killing.

Prabhupāda: It is more shocking than killing?

Mr. Papworth: Far more.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Vicitravīrya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Papworth: And young cows, calves, are kept in a dark shed, deliberately kept in a dark shed and fed on an unnatural diet. They are not allowed to move, they are just kept in a space the size of their body. And for eight weeks, three months, they are fed on unnatural food—milk powder or something, devoid of certain necessary vitamins—to make the flesh whiter so that it gets a market. But that unfortunate beast, instead of walking in the fields under the open sky, he's shut him down.

Prabhupāda: All right, if you are so compassionate, you can kill those animals. But why you are maintaining slaughterhouse, killing nice animals?

Revatīnandana: No, he's talking . . . he's just saying that the way they're maintaining the slaughterhouse now has become even more inhuman. They don't even leave the animal in the field anymore. They keep him . . .

Haṁsadūta: One small point. A simple point is that the slaughterhouse activity necessitates to raise them in that way. As soon as there is a question of animal killing, then naturally, you want to be as expedient as possible. So if you abolish the animal killing, automatically this breeding animals in this fashion will also automatically stop.

Mr. Papworth: But the slaughterhouse becomes a temple of mercy given these conditions in which the animals are . . .

Haṁsadūta: Yes. As long as you maintain a slaughterhouse, then there'll be people to breed animals to supply to the house of slaughter.

Prabhupāda: It is nice.

Haṁsadūta: As soon as there's no more slaughterhouse, then animals are free. They can go everywhere.

Mr. Papworth: I think you are avoiding the point, you see. This is not . . .

Revatīnandana: No. It's the solution. If you want to stop that treatment of animals, you stop the slaughterhouse. Otherwise, first you keep them in the field to slaughter. That's already brute mentality. That brute mentality means next I think, "I could get more flesh if I didn't let this cow move. So let me keep him in a case, cage, in the dark, so they have lighter meat." This is one stage of brute mentality to another stage of brute mentality. Next stage of brute mentality . . . They're already killing the unborn child. Now, next, the child is born. That's the next stage of brute mentality. That is predicted in the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Now, their theory is that when the child comes out of the womb, then he gets the soul. Is it not?

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Not within the womb.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: What kind of theory it is? For killing the child within the womb, they have discovered this theory.

Dr. Schumacher: I think if there is any difficulty . . . well, I happen to be a vegetarian.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: But I would hesitate a long, long time before I would make meat-eating the touchstone on which I would judge a Jesuit. I don't think I could see—unless such a central position. And the evils that are going on that have to be fought are, in comparison with meat-eating, gigantic. And therefore, to refuse to accept that even a meat-eating Jesuit may be a far better man than a vegetarian who is engaged in all sorts of nefarious practices . . . I think one should be a bit careful there. If you come out of a civilization where this has been customary all . . . all throughout history . . .

Haṁsadūta: Therefore all throughout history . . .

Dr. Schumacher: Yes, I know. I haven't . . .

Haṁsadūta: . . . you haven't . . . why hasn't there been peace in our civilization? Because we're practicing these four things: meat . . . animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex life and gambling. According to Vedic scripture, these four activities are the sum and substance of sinful life, and sinful life means . . .

Prabhupāda: Pollution.

Haṁsadūta: Pollution. Or reaction. You're getting . . . just like you make an automobile; you get the reaction—air pollution. So if you kill animals, you will be killed.

Mr. Papworth: You think like this?

Haṁsadūta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's . . . there are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction.

Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good . . . a good formula on this, and . . .

Haṁsadūta: It's common sense. That's all.

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy.

Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have a good compromise on this. They say you can eat meat . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no strict Buddhist will say.

Dr. Schumacher: . . . but because you're not allowed to kill animals for eating meat . . .

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Dr. Schumacher: . . . so they let the Muslims kill the animals.

Revatīnandana: Let the Muslims kill, and if I take . . . If the Muslims kill the animal, and I take the meat, I become animal-killer.

Dr. Schumacher: Well, that is . . .

Revatīnandana: If I sell the meat, if I cook the meat, if I distribute the meat, if I eat the meat, I'm the same as the man who slaughters the animal. This is Vedic . . . there's a Vedic verse that explains it.

Vicitravīrya: As a matter of course.

Prabhupāda: Eight kinds of criminals. In killing animals, there are eight kinds of criminals. That he has explained. One who is killing, one who is ordering, one who is purchasing, one who is eating, one who is cooking. In this way. Just like if a man is killed. If a man is killed and there are so many persons implicated, it does not mean that only one who has killed, he becomes criminal. All others who are implicated in that killing business, they are criminals. This is pollution.

Revatīnandana: This, this . . .

Dr. Schumacher: Let me make myself clear. I happen to be a vegetarian.

Revatīnandana: That's all right. We understand that. We're talking about the matter, the issue.

Dr. Schumacher: But you know, if one lives here in this society, even the elimination of these four things doesn't do it.

Revatīnandana: Oh, it changes everything immediately.

Dr. Schumacher: I mean a fellow who builds himself a huge house when we have twenty thousand actually, actually homeless people without a roof over their head in London . . . now, I would like those things to be raised into real spiritual problems.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, let them come here. We will . . .

Dr. Schumacher: And not to get satisfaction out of making idealistic . . .

Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have such a big place, but why they are not coming? We have temples all over the world, but people are not coming.

Prabhupāda: Because there are restriction.

Dr. Schumacher: That is not, that is not . . . that doesn't meet my point. My point is . . .

Haṁsadūta: Why not? If they have no place to live, let them come and live here. We are convinced that Kṛṣṇa can provide place for any number of His . . .

Prabhupāda: Millions.

Haṁsadūta: . . . devotees. Any number.

Mr. Papworth: I found this the other day—and you'll forgive me making this point—but when I was in discussion, it was impossible for me to make a point without being interrupted so frequently that I failed to make my point at all. Now, can I beg for courtesy for our guest so we listen to what he has to say. Then answer him.

Revatīnandana: But . . . just that this is interesting, that the solution is there . . .

Mr. Papworth: But you haven't heard the problem yet.

Revatīnandana: But the problem is that people cannot understand the solution. They cannot understand.

Prabhupāda: But one thing . . .

Revatīnandana: Why they cannot understand?

Prabhupāda: Mister, yes . . . I forgot your name.

Mr. Papworth: John.

Prabhupāda: John, Mr. John. That we follow strictly the Vedic injunctions, and unless we become God conscious, there cannot be any reformation in this world.

Mr. Papworth: I agree with that.

Prabhupāda: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things—they will be all failure. All failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it.

Dr. Schumacher: I agree with that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory, but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories, but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe . . . (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem.

Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly . . .

(break)

(indistinct) . . . everything will be entwined with it. If you mix up, if there is no division, what is head what is leg then it is chaos and confusion.

Revatīnandana: Just like for example the Vedas say that whatever unnecessary slaughter is going on there will always be a war going on. The society is constantly crying about war. One Vietnam War, the Second World War, the First World War and you go back all the way to the Greeks. It is war after war and what is the is always there? When they could be producing grains vegetables, fruits etc very nicely. They are instead producing animals for slaughter, by habit, by custom, that custom has gradually grown in this materialistic age. Eh. So . . .

Prabhupāda: Nature will setup a reaction.

Revatīnandana: The Vedas said this will happen. Immediately it is already the reaction is there, it is happening.

Papworth: It seems to me we have already covered this ground.

Revatīnandana: I don't.

Papworth: In the sense that we were discussing whether vegetarian approach could be legitimately taken as a central point.

Prabhupāda: No we are speaking of God consciousness, we do not speak on vegetarianism. No, we are this is . . .

Papworth: Alright none killing.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Papworth: None killing.

Prabhupāda: It is one of the processes but our aim is God consciousness, not to become vegetarian.

Papworth: But you see the one is means to the other.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But just try to understand.

Papworth: (indistinct) . . . vegetarian simply . . . (indistinct) . . . live about.

Prabhupāda: Vegetarian.Just like a tiger, a tiger cannot be vegetarian. That is not possible, by nature it is non-vegetarian. So I cannot ask a tiger, a dog, a jackal, to become vegetarian. But I can ask a human being who is not a tiger, a jackal or dog and he can take it, that is human consciousness. Just like all my students, they are coming from Europe and America. They were addicted to all these habits. Now, just see them, how they have given up? They do not drink tea even. Do not smoke even . . .

They are all young boys and girls, how they have taken to it? And when they go to saṅkīrtan party, even the Americans they ask, "Are you Americans?" They are surprised, "how you have changed so much?" One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet, that these boys our boys they are coming from Christian group, Jewish group. So before this they would not care to see us, even come to the church, now how they are so much after God? They are mad after God. So there is a process to purify the whole society, so if we adopt that process then everything can be changed and in the process these four things are there. That no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intoxication.

Guest: Can I ask you what illicit sex means?

Prabhupāda: Illicit sex is without marriage. In the human society there is marriage, in animal society there is no marriage. They can have sex life on the street. We cannot adopt the means of the animals. You are not expected to do the same thing as the animals do. That is humanity. Therefore actually if we are serious to purify the whole situation we have to adopt the standard method otherwise it will be futile.

Dr. Schumacher: You see I don't contradict any of these things, but surely it is right to say that God or Krishna consciousness is the primary thing . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: . . . but by fixing on just those four things.

Prabhupāda: No not only four things.

Dr. Schumacher: We are, we are introducing so many divisions into mankind.

Revatīnandana: Yes, yes.

Dr. Schumacher: The Christian is out because.

Revatīnandana: Four classes are there.

Dr. Schumacher: No, the Christian is out because Jesus drank wine. The Muslims are out because they eat meat.

Others are out because they do not have the specific institution of marriage that we have. So surely we are substituting ephemeral things for the real thing. The real thing being God consciousness and are we not prepared to tolerate people who for instance drink wine?

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: Or even who gamble?

Revatīnandana: Just.

Dr. Schumacher: When these are not any more the central problems. I can't agree any kind of discipline . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is not central problem, that is proof of my students. They are coming from . . . You explain that Christian will be out but why they should be out? They were all Christians, how they are coming?

Dr. Schumacher: Well Christianity is no longer acceptable teaching.

Prabhupāda: No, they are Christians, they are Christians. How they have come?

Dr. Schumacher: Well I don't know but . . .

Prabhupāda: You don't know but you cannot say that the Christian will not come.

Dr. Schumacher: No no they may come . . .

Prabhupāda: It is the process of preaching, now they have come in dozens, if the preaching goes on they will come by thousands. We are preaching up intelligent class of men, doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Hindu . . .

Papworth: I quite accept that.

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . so intelligent class of men they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim. We do not make any bar, "Oh, you are Christian, you cannot come, you're Muslim you cannot come." We welcome the intelligent class of men.

Dr. Schumacher: But if one eats prasadam.

Prabhupāda: No, my point is that you say that Christians are out, that is not the point.

Dr. Schumacher: No, I beg your pardon, I don't think Christians are out, I'd say Christianity . . .

Prabhupāda: If they are intelligent person it doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Muslim or Hindu or if, he will come.

Dr. Schumacher: It is the four criteria I have stated then Jesus is unacceptable.

Prabhupāda: No. Jesus is not unacceptable. We accept Jesus.

Dr. Schumacher: To reform him?

Prabhupāda: Yes, no we accept but we are simply saying that Jesus said, "Thou shalt not kill". Why the Christians are killing? That is our protest.

Dr. Schumacher: Jesus was a meat eater and . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever Jesus may be, whatever he may be, he is Jesus Christ. You are not Jesus Christ, you have to obey his order, not his action. He is great, he can do anything, he is free to do anything, but you have to obey his order you haven't got to imitate his. You cannot imitate great personality. He might have done in circumstances, in different circumstances, that is his business, but if you are a real Christian you have to obey his order.

Dr. Schumacher: Yes.

Revatīnandana: He is in a semi desert region and you are not, that is the point. Simple as that.

Prabhupāda: You cannot say that Jesus eat meat therefore we shall go on . . . (indistinct) . . . do you mean to say that Jesus said contradiction? He personally using eating meat and for others he says, "Thou shalt not kill." You mean to say, this is the philosophy of Jesus Christ? . . . Contradictory. He is not contradiction it is our misunderstanding. Our duty should be, if one is really Christian strictly abide by the orders of Jesus Christ, that is our point . . .

Revatīnandana: See, the śastras say they divide the human society, society into four groups. One group is God, second group is God's devotee . . .

Prabhupāda: Not God, godly.

Revatīnandana: No no but God is there the Supreme mode is there the devotees are there the innocent are there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: And the demons are there who are envious of God and the devotees. See, the Vedas say you worship God with love and devotion, you make friendship with the devotees, you preach to the innocent who will hear and you avoid the demons. It doesn't matter if the demon is dressed in priests garb or he is dressed as Hitler. If he is a demon you recognise him by his qualities . . .

Guest: Well . . . (indistinct)

Revatīnandana: His innocent qualities. There is a whole chapter in Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: A demon does not believe in God. Defies God that is demon.

Guest: I can't quite understand why consciousness can be transferred, can be communicated in debatable argument. You can try it, communicate consciousness, or assume that people have different consciousness.

Prabhupāda: So what is your idea? To change the consciousness?

Guest: You seem to be anxious to change the consciousness, or impose it.

Prabhupāda: Everything is changed by debate and argument.

Guest: I don't go there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, why do you go to the Parliament?

Guest: I don't go.

Prabhupāda: You don't go but your father goes.

Guest: Yes.

Revatīnandana: So that you will not discuss . . . (indistinct) . . . the . . . (indistinct) . . . one man.

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, discussion, human reasoning's are there, philosophies are there, so you can establish the truth by discussion but if you are not after truth that is a different thing, that is a different thing. But if you are after truth, the truth must be established by bona-fide discussion.

Guest: I thought that the truth is, is, the truth of consciousness is that it is inside one, and it is alive and conscious. Not something that can be established with an objective truth. External to be.

Prabhupāda: No, objective truth, truth is true. Just like God is truth, so we are not establishing God by discussion. God is there already we have to understand God by discussion, that's it. Truth is already there.

Guest: We seem to be in a situation of hostility here which is totally unnecessary.

Prabhupāda: No, why unnecessary? All preacher did it, eh? Lord Jesus Christ he preached and because people did not agree with him he was crucified. So discussion is always there, you cannot avoid it. Why he was crucified? What was his fault? Because people did not agree with Him. That's all.

Papworth: But the central, the point that I think Doctor Schumacher was sharpening a bit was about the position of Christians in the terms of the four points, four rules of conduct that you enunciate, Jesus, the last message to those around him was take this cup of wine drink it in remembrance of me and ever since he died Christians week after week from generation to generation . . .

Prabhupāda: Then how do you . . .

Papworth: . . . to take the cup.

Prabhupāda: Take his order? Commandment thou shall not kill. Does it mean that Jesus Christ was hypocrite? He was eating meat and advising not kill, do you think like that?

Papworth: No well . . .

Dr. Schumacher: Well the traditional interpretation of this both of the Jews and.

Prabhupāda: That is not.

Dr. Schumacher: Christians

Prabhupāda: Tradition and . . . interpretation is different, but truth is truth.

Dr. Schumacher: The traditional interpretation both of the Jews and Christians has always been that this refers to killing humans.

Prabhupāda: That is for his convenience, he has invented but we have to take direct meaning. What does it mean kill?

Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: "Thou shalt not kill," this is direct order.

Dr. Schumacher: It is not ah . . .

Prabhupāda: If you want to support in that way, interpretation, that is different thing. But we take the direct order. Christ said: "Thou shalt not kill" that should be taken directly, direct meaning, no interpretation. Why interpretation? When you can understand what is the meaning of killing, why you should interpretate at all?

Everyone if you open the dictionary you can see the meaning, everyone knows what is the meaning of killing. Why you should interpretate at all? Interpretation is required when the meaning is not clear.

Dr. Schumacher: Well, with respect interpretation is necessary, for instance, and was given this evening when I said: "Killing animals for protection" I was told that.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Dr. Schumacher: That special?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Suppose a tiger is coming.

Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct) . . . are the Eskimos killing animals because . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Dr. Schumacher: Different. So we are in the field of interpretation.

Revatīnandana: The scriptures give all these dispensations.

Dr. Schumacher: So we are in the field of interpretation?

Revatīnandana: The scripture also gives dispensation.

Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: The thing is that, "Thou shalt not kill". Suppose a tiger is coming here to attack. I shall kill it but I should not go to the forest to kill him.

Dr. Schumacher: I accept all this, I accept all this . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is the interpretation, it is not my business to go to the forest and kill him.

Dr. Schumacher: That's right.

Prabhupāda: When he comes to attack me, I must kill him. Why a tiger? Even a man comes to attack me I must kill him. That is another thing, but that means naturally I am not in favour of killing but if there is necessity, absolute necessity I must kill him, that is another thing.

Dr. Schumacher: Well, I, this with great respect is an interpretation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: And therefore I can't sit here and say that all the Jews and all the Christians for thousands of years have all been wrong by interpreting the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" as referring to people. They have often enough transgressed that, so but the really worrying thing to me is while I accept that spiritual development requires certain disciplines and of course essential disciplines are some of those that have been named here, but surely we can agree that these are purely means to an end.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: And that I do not really act as touchstone or something, sincerity or genuineness of the people, that one can choose quite a different set which would be perhaps in modern society even more irrelevant and it is particularly disturbing because we all know the great personalities who have done tremendous harm to mankind and spirituality . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Schumacher: . . . who never had illicit sex, never gambled never intoxicate themselves and were very careless. So it is quite clear that these four things by themselves are as nothing.

Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Schumacher: This is the Christian teachings do not . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say, guṇa-karma, quality and work, guṇa-karma vibh . . . suppose you have passed the law examination but you are not practising. Nobody will call you as a lawyer. So, when you are qualified to become a lawyer and practising, then you are a lawyer. Similarly, theoretical knowledge that these things will help but if I do not practice it then I am not qualified those things. But two things must be there, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. One must be qualified and at the same time practised in life then he is. Without practising simply theoretical knowledge will not do.

These people, these students, they are practising they are not depending on the theoretical knowledge, they are practising.

Dr. Schumacher: The practice, I am sure goes beyond the observance of these four precepts?

Prabhupāda: Why? Unless you have accepted the precepts how you can practice? If you do not know, this is good, this is bad how you can practice to become good or bad?

Guest: It's only practice.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: It's only practice.

Prabhupāda: Yes it must be practice.

Guest: It's not the real experience.

Prabhupāda: No, you must know what is what and practice it, that is called jñāna and vijñāna. Vijñāna means science or practical application, experiment that is science observation and experiment. Observation is theoretical and experiment is practical so when two combine then it is science.

Papworth: I am intrigued that the four precepts make numerous references to truth or to love or to beauty and I wonder if you could not conceive it possible that people could follow these four precepts and still be living in ways which would deny attempts to prove this.

Prabhupāda: Yes that is possible, therefore we say practice. Even we can accept one who is addicted to these four principles he can become also God conscious even accept that. Our point is that one must be God conscious either by following these precepts or not following these precepts, it doesn't matter.

Dr. Schumacher: Oh alright, I am happy.

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter, we want to see that he is God conscious because sometimes we see those who are addicted to these principles still he is not God conscious and one who is not addicted still he is God conscious, there is possibility. But these are the general, regulations. Just like Rabindranath Tagore, you know Rabindranath Tagore's name? A Bengali poet who.

Dr. Schumacher: Rabindranath yes.

Prabhupāda: Rabindranath, Tagore.

Dr. Schumacher: Tagore?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he never went to school but he was offered doctorate title from Oxford University, yes. So that does not mean everyone should not go to school and he will get the doctorate title. It is not general, specific, that is another thing, so we have to discuss the general principle. Specifically it is possible, but even one is addicted to all these principles he can be completely God conscious, that is possible. And even one is not addicted, he may, he can become a demon. So these are uncommon exceptional cases but generally this is the rules.

Dr. Schumacher: I'm sure you appreciate my difficulty when it comes to meat eating but ah, ninety-nine out of the Christian saints were in fact not vegetarians and so from my point of view this is not the very rare exception like Rabindranath Tagore getting honorary degree and it is a very specific Indian tradition of which I am very much aware, Southeast Asian tradition to put this great emphasis on vegetarianism, but it does seem to me a little bit out of focus to condemn a Jesuit because he does not immediately take on that point.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Schumacher: This is really what gave rise to this conversation.

Revatīnandana: He didn't click on any of the other points either.

Dr. Schumacher: That I wouldn't know (laughs).

Revatīnandana: The Vedas say that and this again, a general rule, a meat eating mind cannot understand spiritual life. This man.

Prabhupāda: That is general.

Revatīnandana: Couldn't understand the general principle, we are talking about changing the general society, you have a general society of meat eaters you want them to understand spiritual life. It is going to be a very difficult situation.

Prabhupāda: The Bhāgavatam enunciation of religion is given there, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. (SB 1.2.6) Religious systems there are many religious systems chiefly Hinduism, Christianity, Mohammedinism or Buddhism, it doesn't matter. We don't say that you are Buddhist or you're Christian, you become a Hindu. We never say that. We do not say that, our policy is not proselytisation it is not our process we simply ask people that you become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Try to understand God and love him, that's all. But these regulative principles are favourable for your advancement, that is our mission.

Dr. Schumacher: This I accept.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can a lover of God, you can become without following these regulative, we have no objection to it. We want to see that you are actually lover of God.

Dr. Schumacher: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But then another thing is that I cannot pretend that I am lover of God my actions will be, ah proved. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, God consciousness means brahma-bhūta, brahma-jñāna, this is technical pure. So from Bhagavad-gītā we understand that one who has become God conscious, brahma-bhūta, Brahma not materially conscious, that is called brahma-bhūta, God conscious brahma-bhūta.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
(BG 18.54)

One who has become God conscious he does not lament or hanker, first two qualification. If somebody says: "I am God conscious," then I will have to see the symptoms whether he is God conscious. So these are the symptoms, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā, he is jolly (coughs) and jollyness (coughs) means no hankering and no lamenting.

So long one is materially conscious he has got two symptoms, he is lamenting for the loss and hankering for the gain. So God conscious person will be free from these two symptoms, na śocati na kāṅkṣati and samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, and he will observe all living entities on the equal level. So soon as I see that he is addicted to animal killing that means that he has not come to the position to see all living entities are the same level. That is also another symptom of God consciousness, if God is the original father that is expressed here:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ.
(BG 14.4)

All living entities in any form, "I am the seed giving father", God is the father we are changing in different forms of body by a evolution, or something else, by karma. But I am the spirit soul, spark part and parcel of God, so you are. You may be in different dress, just like you are in black coat, I am in saffron cloth that does not mean you're not human being. The dress may be different, change.

Similarly all living entities either he is a human being or a cat, or dog a cow they are all part and parcel of God. So one who is God conscious he cannot kill any other animal, he will not allow. He will never agree because he knows that the cat, or dog or a learned brāhmaṇa, their dress may be different but the living spark, the soul is the same. So he cannot give any pain to any living entity, that is one of the symptoms of being God conscious.

Guest: If you say that fact, can I ask you about sacrifice because you allowed in fact, if a tiger came to your house or a man even came to your house.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Guest: You would legitimately kill him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: What is the em . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the already explained.

Guest: Hm.

Prabhupāda: . . . if to kill a tiger who is coming to attack you and to kill an innocent animal in the slaughter house, do you think it is the same thing?

Guest: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Guest: But in terms of God consciousness it must be.

Prabhupāda: But God consciousness does not mean that he is a grand fool. That he will not kill a tiger who is coming to attack him, he is not a fool.

Guest: In religious thoughts . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no religious thought. You have come to attack me, I must kill you first.

Guest: Why?

Prabhupāda: Why, because you are my enemy.

Guest: But, eh according to the Christian teachings you should love your neighbour.

Prabhupāda: But that is not our teaching that we shall become a grand fool, somebody is coming to attack me and kill me and I shall say: "Yes sir kill me, yeah you are very good". That is not our philosophy . . . if somebody.

Papworth: Do you not accept . . .

Prabhupāda: Generally I don't want to kill you but if you become my enemy, if you want to kill me, I must kill you first. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is means. Just like Arjuna.

Guest: If God is in the form of all living.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be but on the material platform I may be God conscious you may not be God conscious, then why you should come to kill me? So it is not our philosophy that anyone comes to attack you, a tiger, we shall embrace them, "Yes sir, come on kill me." That is not our philosophy. If you are aggressor, if you are coming to attack me, so it is my first duty to kill you first.

Guest: By what right?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: By what right?

Prabhupāda: Because you are my enemy.

Guest: That doesn't seem to. That creates a division.

Prabhupāda: This is useless argument, if enemy you must be killed. Must be killed. That is the whole philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā. That as God conscious person Arjuna, you have read Bhagavad-gītā? He was sensitively, "No, no why should I kill" but Kṛṣṇa said.

Dr. Schumacher: I know that. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Arjuna was hesitating.

Dr. Schumacher: He was hesitating, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes hesitating but Kṛṣṇa said no.

Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You must kill them because they are enemy, this is our philosophy.

Papworth: Suppose you are mistaken?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Papworth: Supposing you are mistaken?

Prabhupāda: Why you should suppose? You are mistaken.

Papworth: People have been mistaken before.

Prabhupāda: No if you are guided by the perfect person you cannot be mistaken.

Dr. Schumacher: I think that in practice all good men are always agreed on this.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: Em, but they aim at non-killing but there are situations which.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: Which cannot be avoided.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: Em I'm not bothered about that, I am bothered about any teaching which really asserts that the brāhmaṇa and the cat are in effect on the same, the same level because it seems to me that . . .

Prabhupāda: This is higher level because one sees the same spiritual spark within the brāhmaṇa and within the dog. That is clear vision, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. (BG 5.18) You find out this verse. Yes.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
(BG 5.18)

That paṇḍita I have already explained, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita also said: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54) He is paṇḍita he is learned. So what is that.

Pradyumna:

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
(BG 5.18)

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater."

Prabhupāda: Hm? What is the purport, is it there?

Pradyumna: "A Kṛṣṇa conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brāhmaṇa and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, or a cow, or an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist. This is due to their relationship to the Supreme, for the Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion as Paramātmā, is present in everyone's heart. Such an understanding of the Supreme is real knowledge."

"As far as the bodies are concerned in different castes or different species of life, the Lord is equally kind to everyone because He treats every living being as a friend yet maintains Himself as Paramātmā regardless of the circumstances of the living entities. The Lord as Paramātmā is present both in the outcaste and in the brāhmaṇa, although the body of a brāhmaṇa and that of an outcaste are not the same. The bodies are material productions of different modes of material nature, but the soul and the Supersoul within the body are of the same spiritual quality. The similarity in the quality of the soul and the Supersoul, however, does not make them equal in quantity, for the individual soul is present only in that particular body, whereas the Paramātmā is present in each and every body."

"A Kṛṣṇa conscious person has full knowledge of this, and therefore he is truly learned and has equal vision. The similar characteristics of the soul and Supersoul are that they are both conscious, eternal and blissful. But the difference is that the individual soul is conscious within the limited jurisdiction of the body, whereas the Supersoul is conscious of all bodies. The Supersoul is present in all bodies without distinction."

(pause)

Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam.

Revatīnandana: See what I'm noticing is that there is two ways to follow this logical progression. If a man is a vegetarian and he doesn't drink, he is not necessarily God conscious. He could be a demon, there are cases, we admit that, right. So.

Prabhupāda: Generally he is demon.

Revatīnandana: Yes. Generally.

Prabhupāda: Not he could be.

Revatīnandana: No, I'm saying he.

Prabhupāda: Exceptionally he may not.

Revatīnandana: No, if he doesn't do it, if he doesn't eat meat.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Revatīnandana: If he doesn't, still he may be a demon, he won't necessarily be God conscious, right, but if he comes into the association of a God conscious person and God conscious knowledge. He'll be able to understand it very readily, in most cases. He has a very good chance of understanding it. If a man is a meat eater and a drinker etc., he cannot be accepted very, except in very rare case, like Jesus Christ being God conscious.

And if he comes in contact with God consciousness he has a very difficult time to understand, right. Therefore what we are saying is that the business is to become God conscious, yeah. In almost every case a necessary, a necessary precondition that he accepts these four principles, then he can progress further. Fortunately he cannot understand (background cough) to do this very well in this age, most people cannot understand. That is why we say, just let us go there and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

The purifying effect will overcome the reaction of the sinful life. He will become able to understand it but when he understands it he has to progress spiritually then these things become unimportant. We don't mind that the general society is engaged in these activities we were also engaged in them but simply that people should not oppose these principles and should allow us to do the kind of work that opens people's minds spiritually. Then they will put these things aside, then they can advance. Otherwise they will go on with the slaughter house and the war constantly and then have a very hard time to ever understand these things. This is our point.

Prabhupāda: Now take a little prasādam.

Mātājī: We have a.

Prabhupāda: First of all. (break) Kṛṣṇa prasādam.

Mātājī: We want to give you one of these.

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. This one . . . (indistinct)

Papworth: I can't understand why anyone should . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If you have got such nice beautiful substitute, why should you go to take meat?

Dr. Schumacher: Oh I quite agree.

Revatīnandana: Actually we distribute as much as possible, to as many people as possible.

Papworth: (indistinct) . . . not lamenting and not critical.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: And if you can keep that up then you will get away with many things. I mean this is our teaching, our Christian teaching is. Look, if you come into a family and they are meat eaters of course you can't take . . . (indistinct) . . . if you come into a family that are vegetarians.

Prabhupāda: No we go to family of meat eaters, they give us vegetable we eat.

Dr. Schumacher: Yes but our instructions are you see that we should not mind, we should not be precious but.

Prabhupāda: No no.

Dr. Schumacher: Because the essence of the matter if you're not craving you're not craving and your not . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . This is vegetarian, strictly . . . Lord Fenner-Brockway.

Papworth: We are concerned as a Christian and the way my religion is full of things saying, "Thou shalt not," but I am much more interested in, what I shall do?

Prabhupāda: Hm? You shall eat vegetables, "Thou shalt not kill," that's all, as we are doing. We are not dying because we do not eat meat, if there is substances such as nice foodstuff why should we kill a poor animals? This is common-sense reasoning. If there is no food I cannot starve and die, then I must eat, that is another thing. When there is substitute in America and England, so nice things are there, we can prepare hundreds and thousands of nice preparations from cow's milk, besides that we have got another philosophy. Cow is one of the mothers.

There are seven mothers, out of them cow is one. So the animal eaters at least they must save their mother cow. If animal eating is at all necessary they can eat other animals, just like in India. Those who are animal eaters they take goats, hogs but they never kill cows because they consider, Hindus especially, cow is mother and it is mother because we are drinking her milk.

Guest: Why is it India's so violent?

Prabhupāda: Because they are following the Vedic principles.

Guest: So violent?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Guest: Why is it that India's so violent? If it has lead such a vegetarian life.

Prabhupāda: Who said that vegetarians should not be violent? Who said?

Guest: Well.

Prabhupāda: We have already explained that if there is enemy then you must be violent that is already explained . . .

Revatīnandana: See there are so many, as I said these four things they are to encourage, they are to create an atmosphere for further progress. The further progress is when you prepare your food you understand it is Kṛṣṇa's food, so you offer it to Kṛṣṇa with devotion.

You sing the glories of Kṛṣṇa and you find out how to utilise your talents your occupational duties propensities for the satisfaction of the Lord. You raise your family to love Kṛṣṇa to chant the glories of Kṛṣṇa, to eat prasādam, you progress spiritually in a positive way because you have pulled out your anchor of sinful life, therefore you can move, and then when the anchor pulled you have a favourable breeze because from the scripture and the spiritual master you learn so many positive activities which comprised are what we call bhakti, bhakti-yoga.

Devotional way of becoming conscious of God, so the positive side is joyful process, but that joyfulness is allowed to grow when you pull up the anchor of sinful life. There is a story about a gentleman who . . . whose son was getting married to a girl in another village down the river and the custom was that the groom's entourage party would go to the village of the bride and be maintained there as guests by the parents of the bride and then the marriage would take place.

So they went down one night and chartered a riverboat to take them down to the next village for the marriage and they proceeded to take their rest and in the morning when they awoke they were surprised to find that as the sun was rising they hadn't gone anywhere. So they complained to the boat keeper, "Why haven't you brought us anywhere?" He said: "Oh I am as surprised as you are, all night we have been rowing," it was a very dark night. And they looked and they hadn't moved because they have forgotten to pull the anchor.

You can act very nicely but if. Just like I'm going to church, I'm giving money to the church, I'm giving to the charity so many things and yet I am not becoming ecstatically attached to the loving service of God. In fact I'm falling more and more into materialism, I'm loving Mammon more and more.

So many Christian people are actually displaying that, for all their following of the rituals and the rights of the church they are still showing more and more attachment for Mammon because they have, they have a situation where they don't have to commit any kind of sinful activity and yet they are doing it. That is all right, but when they are told about it they resist, that is the demonic side.

Guest: Can I ask you what is evil what behinds the evil?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Revatīnandana: He is asking how you see evil? What is evil?

Prabhupāda: When there is no God consciousness that is evil. This is the sum and substance, if you're not God conscious then everything is evil for you. This may be different, but you are in evil or as you say in the Christian, Satan. If you're not under God then you are under Satan. And Satan is evil. So anyone who is not God conscious he is in evil. That's all.

Guest: Is that a force outside the individual or is it a force within the individual?

Prabhupāda: Why you are dragging Indian we are talking of general.

Revatīnandana: No no, he says, is that a force inside the individual, evil, or outside the individual? Is evil something that impresses me from outside or is it from within?

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is not God conscious he is overwhelmed with evil, inside and outside both. We have to purify therefore inside and outside both.

Guest: Do you really think then that anybody cannot be God conscious?

Prabhupāda: What?

Guest: By the nature of this creation God, the father, can anyone not be God conscious?

Prabhupāda: No everyone can be God conscious, not to become God conscious, that is artificial. That is Satanic. To become God conscious is natural. So people who are not God conscious means they are living unnatural life. That everyone must have a father, so if one says I do not know who is father, that is unnatural life. Natural life is he must know, similarly the original father is God. If he does not know that is unnatural life and as soon as one comes to his natural life then he is all right, he's perfect . . . anything more?

Guest: No, hardly, thank you.

Prabhupāda: Mr John?

Papworth: When I was a small boy I was told always to leave something on my plate as a sign of politeness, but your food is so nice that I was forgetting the rules.

Everyone: (laughs)

Revatīnandana: Hm?

Prabhupāda: Before coming, joining.

Revatīnandana: Oh yeah, that was the first thing.

Prabhupāda: (laughs)

Revatīnandana: That was the first thing. I didn't like the philosophy at all.

Everyone: (laughs)

Revatīnandana: But I couldn't stay away from the love feast on Sunday. See one thing you pointed out in your article, what was it called? The one about . . . ah . . .

Dr. Schumacher: Christian responsibility?

Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . no the other one.

Prabhupāda: (aside) some more . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Schumacher: (indistinct) . . . I'm making the argument that are we sort of accepted and authorised for containing forces of modern industrial society and therefore it will come to a bad end. I don't think. I quite agree, I don't think that completes the register of the cardinal sins, or deadly sins rather, deadly sins. Of course we have seven of them, to distinguish. We . . . (indistinct) . . . only two.

Revatīnandana: Yes how . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then the animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex and gambling. If one is supporting these then we don't take him as disciple. All in one word, one who is not God conscious he is not a disciple. That is our general conclusion. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, that:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
māyayāpahṛta-jñānā
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
(BG 7.15)

"Those who are demons, āsuraṁ bhāva, atheist, they do not believe in God or surrender to God and these demon class men are divided into four classes. The first class, or the first division is miscreants, always committing sinful life, miscreants—duṣkṛtinaḥ. Duṣkṛtinaḥ means impious activities and the next, mūḍhāḥ—rascal, fool and the third narādhamāḥ. The lowest of the mankind and the fourth even though he is advanced, according to modern education, his actual knowledge has been taken away by the illusory energy."

"These class of men they never become God conscious they never surrender to God. So our test is, if one is not God conscious, then he must be in either of these groups, from this logical conclusion. He may be outwardly very decent, but because he is not God conscious he does not understand what is the science of God, we do not take him as decent. We take him in these groups."

Papworth: I'm not sure I have made my point. You see what I was going on to say, probably. Is that I believe that the dominant institutions of modern life are in the control of evil forces. They are not controlled by ordinary people who at least I feel are decent and that if people did control these forces I think that there would be a basis for spiritual progress in human affairs.

Where at the moment there is none, now all you are saying in your philosophies seems to me to the great effect that it is possible in modern society for very very small but very powerful minority of people to manipulate millions and billions of people in ways which they cannot stop from doing. When you think last year £10,000,000 was spent on advertising cigarettes.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Papworth: You say man mustn't smoke. How much is.

Prabhupāda: Ten millions.

Papworth: (indistinct) . . . advertising.

Haṁsadūta: Pounds for advertising cigarettes. Smoking.

Papworth: Smoking.

Haṁsadūta: Ten million pounds was spent for just advertising.

Prabhupāda: Yes that I see in your country, all big big boards—boarding, cigarette and wine advertisment.

Papworth: The majority of people all through history have never been interested in verbal articulation about questing for God, this has always been a minority concern but common people have always been ready to follow positive lead, you are finding this in your work, but you come to this barrier where the majority who do not have the independence of mind. That those who have decided to follow you possess and . . .

Prabhupāda: No they were always independent.

Papworth: You're principles of that defect.

Prabhupāda: It was not obligatory, I simply preached I never asked them that you become dependent on me. I simply invited them just like I have invited you. We are talking, you are independent so similarly I invited them.

Dr. Schumacher: That's what he said, that's what he said.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so we keep everyone's independence but we talk on philosophy, we give them prasāda, we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, God's holy name this is our process. So one becomes attracted he becomes intimately related. We don't touch anyones, neither God touches, God also does not interfere with your independence because God is fully independent and you are part and parcel of God so you have also got independence, the quality, but he is unlimitedly independent.

We are limitedly independent, so as in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that you surrender unto me I shall solve your all problems, I shall give you protection. Now he does not force him, although he is God, he can force him. "You must, I must force you," no no he doesn't do so. In another place Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru . . . eh? In the eighteenth chapter.

Pradyumna: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yathecchasi tathā kuru, he after instructing Bhagavad-gītā he said that I have spoken to you everything, now whatever you like you can do. That means he is not touching his independence, "Whatever you like". So even God does not touch individual person's independence. So independence is always there.

Pradyumna:

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ
guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā
vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa
yathecchasi tathā kuru
(BG 18.63)

"Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do."

Prabhupāda: That's it. "Do what you wish to do, not that I'm forcing you, it is up to you to accept this philosophy or not." So we are preaching entirely. These boys and girls they have joined voluntarily there was no bribe giving and I. What can I give them? I am sannyāsī I have no money to bribe them. (laughs) Or to give them some material facilities, what can I give them?

You and all European and American what can I give you? So they have voluntarily joined, "Yes it is nice". Therefore we are confident that if this movement is pushed on just in this way wherever we shall go the intelligent class of men will join, there is no doubt about it.

Revatīnandana: See once I heard Śrīla Prabhupāda say that the . . . actually, that we agree that the general mass of people they are being misled. They are not so much demonic but they are being misled.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: By general, by a nucleus of leaders in high positions who are very much demonic.

Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). This is stated in the Bhāgavad Gi . . . Bhāgavatam, that a blind man is leading thousands of blind men. So what will be the result? The leader is blind and the followers are blind, so what will be the good result? Both will fall in the ditch. Andhā yathāndhair, one who is leader he must have eyes, he must have full knowledge, what is what, then it will be all right.

So not the people are to be blamed but because the demoniac leaders are misleading them therefore the social condition is like that. So if the leaders of the society they will try to understand what is God, what is God consciousness, how people can be happy. Then the society can be changed immediately because the others they will follow the leaders, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate. (BG 3.21)

Papworth: Are you saying that Kṛṣṇa conscious, people imbued with Krishna consciousness are somehow going to be victorious in the political dogfight?

Prabhupāda: Well generally we are not interested in politics, but if need be we can take politics also because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is all pervading. It includes religion, philosophy, politics, sociology, science everything, everything. It is all pervading, God is everywhere it is not that God is only church, in the church or in the temple, God is everywhere.

Guest: What you mean by, "Need be"?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: What you mean by, "If need be"?

Prabhupāda: Need be, when we see that the politicians are simply making embezzlement we may take part in politics also.

Guest: Isn't that now?

Prabhupāda: Now we are not, we few people what can we do? Suppose if I am made the president of the United States, what can I do there? The whole atmosphere is polluted, it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. I cannot do anything, so why should I waste my time, to become elected as president. I know that I shall not be able to do anything, the whole atmosphere is polluted.

Papworth: But are you worried about pollution?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Papworth: You're not really worried about pollution, are you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Papworth: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: . . . otherwise why are we pushing on this movement, if we are not worried? We are seeing that people are suffering on account of this pollution. So as they are God's sons, they are misled, so I'm also God's son, let me help my brothers. That is the necessity of this movement. Otherwise why am in old age—80 years old I'm travelling all over the world. I am feeling for them, that these poor people being misled, let me try to save them to my best capacity, that is all.

Papworth: But in your travelling by must, your aeroplane is adding to the pollution, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes pollution without . . .

Revatīnandana: He is using, this word is being used two different ways, your way of using pollution and his way, two different words.

Vicitravīrya: He is talking about material pollution.

Revatīnandana: He is talking about smog in the air, the air pollution . . .

Prabhupāda: That includes the greater pollution.

Revatīnandana: You're talking generally . . .

Prabhupāda: That includes the greater pollution. That includes the greater pollution.

Papworth: (indistinct) . . . New York, when you talked about pollution in . . .

Prabhupāda: Our pollution means when one is not God conscious, he is polluted.

Papworth: Ah!

Prabhupāda: Our pollution.

Papworth: I see.

Prabhupāda: And your pollution includes that.

Papworth: No I was using it in a technical sense.

Prabhupāda: No, not technical sense, anyone who is not God conscious he is polluted, that's all. It doesn't matter what he is, that is our philosophy.

Guest: Yes.

Revatīnandana: You see, just like devotees they like to live simply, in villages, they like to do it. They just grow some food, have a temple there, cows and they offer the food and the milk on the altar to the Lord and take that food and study the Vedas and become God conscious. Devotees like to live simply in villages that our, that's the Vedic culture, to live simply and God conscious life in the village.

Prabhupāda: Now I see these village, so many vacant lands are there. So much that is not been utilised properly and people are being dragged in the city, London and they are struggling hard. The basic principle of civilisation is polluted, you see. Nobody is producing food everyone is producing knives and spoons, that's all. But knife and spoon will be required when there is food. But nobody is producing food, everyone is interested in factory, that we have also condemned this industry.

Actually this modern industrialisation is spoiling the whole scheme of God. Why? They should be engaged in producing food and then they will have enough time for becoming God conscious. You have very nicely described all these industrial deficiencies, I have very much appreciated. Unnecessarily they are engaged to become śūdras and fourth class and tenth class men, due to this industry. So our Gandhi he tried to keep the men in the village, he had an organisation, village organisation. That was a very nice scheme but his disciples, Jawaharlal Nehru and company, he made all digged up. He wanted to become like America, overnight. So he changed the whole policy therefore India is in a confusion.

Papworth: Who was it changed the policy? I think.

Several: Nehru.

Prabhupāda: Nehru, yes. He wanted that India should be America, overnight immediately. We have got our independence, so he deprecated anything Indian.

Papworth: I seem to recall Gandhi's last message to Nehru was disband the Congress Party.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Papworth: Disband the Congress Party it was Gandhi's last message to Nehru.

Prabhupāda: Disband the Congress Party?

Papworth: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: I do not know, but they are sticking to Congress Party.

Papworth: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: His daughter is now prime minister, she is also in Congress Party. No, no it is not a question of Gandhi or Nehru, people should live natural life. God has given you land, God has given you cows, so if you simply keep one or two cows for each man and if you have got a little land your whole economic question is solved. There is no economic problem at all.

Papworth: Is there enough land in India to give everybody several acres?

Prabhupāda: If there is no India why not provide here in England? Why do you differentiate from India and England? That is not . . . lack of God consciousness.

Papworth: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: That is lack of consciousness, why you are thinking that England is yours? It is God's. Why America is thinking that America is ours? The God consciousness means everything belongs to God and if you take total land of the whole earthly planet there is enough potential for producing food for ten times population as what it is now. God is so perfect, but we are making this ah, turmoil, "Oh you are Indian, you don't come here", or "You are British you don't come here." That is our creation, God has given enough land, enough land. In Africa, in Australia I have seen so much vacant land, lying without any utilisation but they have created this clique, "No no you can come here." Why? Lack of God consciousness.

Dr. Schumacher: If it were just a matter of cultivated area per head of the population, the British would go to India.(laughter)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Schumacher: The amount of cultivated area per head of the population.

Prabhupāda: If you make God center, then there is no difficulty British going to India or India coming to England.

Revatīnandana: As I was reading. Have you noticed how the rains are stopping around the world? Ah? You've noticed? It's raining less and less in my state of California, here in England, in India, North Africa everywhere it is raining less.

Dr. Schumacher: Thank goodness.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Revatīnandana: How are you going to grow any foodstuffs when it stops raining?

Prabhupāda: Yes the real key is in the hand of God, if it stops raining all your programme and philosophy will go to hell. And that is stated in the . . . predicted, that as we advance in this age there will be no more rain and there will be scarcity of food and on the other hand the government will levy heavy tax, people will become mad.

Revatīnandana: So that.

Prabhupāda: Locate that in Bhagavat: anāvṛṣṭyā, anāvṛṣṭyā durbhikṣa-kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9) That is already predicted that these things will happen.

Devotee: Excuse me.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is coming there will be cloud in the sky, there will be no rain simply lightning these are all predicted and gradually at the end of this age there will be no food grains.

Papworth: No progress?

Prabhupāda: Food grains.

Others: Food grains.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . that are grown.

Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, fourth chapter.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . grow.

Prabhupāda: So the only solution is to make this propaganda that people may become God conscious. Now the simple method we are recommending to chant the holy name of God. We don't say that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Suppose you are Christian you have got God's name, so you chant that, where is the objection? If the Christian people are requested that you chant God's name.

Papworth: They do!

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Papworth: Hallelujah!

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotees: Hallelujah.

Vicitravīrya: I think it means praise the Lord or something similar to that, it is in the Bible. It means to praise the Lord, praise God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Papworth: Hallelujah.

Pradyumna: It's like Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pradyumna: It's like Jaya. Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also good but they must come to God, at least. Without coming to God simply theorisation, has no solution. People must come to God.

Papworth: On that we are completely agreed.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to do that. You write in your papers don't be a rascal, come to God, then everything will be solved.

Papworth: My difficulty is . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: I don't say that you write in our book, you write that Christian religion, Christian people who believe in God, so please chant the holy name of God in every house, every factory everywhere. Just see how it changes. Make this simple and we don't say that you, you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa we say that you chant the holy name of God. If you have got the holy name of God you chant it.

Papworth: Well Kṛṣṇa is a very beautiful name.

Prabhupāda: That's nice, but if you have got objection you can chant your beautiful name, what you have got.

Papworth: But when I am writing in my journal, people are always saying to me, "This is all very well but you are not writing about spiritual matters." When I come here you are discussing spiritual matters but you don't do very much on practical matters.

Prabhupāda: Eh? We are practical, we are very practical. We are providing so many men who are living in nice house, nice consciousness, nice food. What do you want more?

Devotees: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: You can live with us and see.

Devotees: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: But as soon as you will hear of the restriction you will go away.

Devotees: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: "There is no tea, Sir." (laughs) In the morning you will require tea we cannot supply . . .

(aside) Hm. You have got that?

Pradyumna: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Pradyumna:

parjanyaḥ śata-varṣāṇi
bhūmau rājan na varṣati

Prabhupāda: Ah!

Pradyumna:

tadā niranne hy anyonyaṁ
bhakṣyamāṇāḥ kṣudhārditāḥ
(SB 12.4.7)

Prabhupāda: Hm. Let me have it.

Pradyumna: . . . parjanyaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that is another thing.

Here it is stated, predicted:

prajā hi lubdhai rājanyair
nirghṛṇair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ
ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā
yāsyanti giri-kānanam
(SB 12.2.8)

The prajāḥ, the citizens will be exploited by the greedy government officers, it is clearly stated. Rājanyaiḥ, rājanyaiḥ means the government officers, prajā hi lubdhai, lubdhaiḥ—greed, greedy, lubdhaiḥ means greedy. Yes they take to politics for exploitation to become Minister and exploit, that's all. Everyone knows it .Prajā hi lubdhai rājanyair nirghṛṇair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ, their profession is just like thieves and rogues, ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā. In this way when there will be too much exploitation, yāsyanti giri-kānanam. They will flee away from the . . . will go to the . . . take shelter in the hills and forests.

Revatīnandana: Already the hippies are doing it. Fleeing from the cities to live like animals in the hills. I have just talked with them in North Devonshire. That's a desperate condition.

Prabhupāda: Here it is said:

kalau kākiṇike 'py arthe
vigṛhya tyakta-sauhṛdāḥ
tyakṣyanti ca priyān prāṇān
haniṣyanti svakān api
(SB 12.3.41)

In this age even for a little money, I need from your pocket. Even if you are own man, I can kill and take it, take the money. Even if you are my relative so because I need that money, little money what you have got, I will kill you. These are the symptoms given:

na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ
sthavirau pitarāv api
putrān bhāryāṁ ca kula-jāṁ
kṣudrāḥ śiśnodaraṁ-bharāḥ
(SB 12.3.42)

In this age nobody will give protection to old father, here. And even own children, wife, simply for the sense gratification he will give up all connection. The description, if you come some time I will explain.

tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ
satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣamā dayā
kālena balinā rājan
naṅkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ
(SB 12.2.1)

Now, as gradually this age will make progress then people will lose interest in religion, in truthfulness, in cleanliness, in forgiveness, in mercifulness by the advancement of this age people will reduce their duration of life, bodily strength and memory. These are the predictions.

vittam eva kalau nṟṇāṁ
janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ
(SB 12.2.2)

You may be, whatever you may be, it doesn't matter, if you have got money, then you are respectable man, that's all. (laughs) And it is also mentioned, just this . . .

avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyaṁ
pāṇḍitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ
(SB 12.2.4)

anad anāḍhyatā eva asādhutve if you have no money, then you are dishonest, sādhutve dambha eva tu, if you are very proud then you become honest:

svīkāra eva codvāhe
snānam eva prasādhanam
(SB 12.2.5)

Eh? Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur, dāmpatye, husband wife relationship will go on only on liking. It is not that, "oh (s)he is my wife and my responsibility to maintain her and he is my husband it is my duty to serve him." These considerations will not be there, if I don't like, then I don't like, you go away, I go away.

strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir
vipratve sūtram eva hi
(SB 12.2.3)

And man or woman the relationship will continue only on sex understanding, ratir. And a brāhmaṇa means having a sacred thread, that is all, he may not be any qualifications.

avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyaṁ
(SB 12.2.5)
svīkāra eva codvāhe
snānam eva prasādhanam
(SB 12.2.5)

And marriage will be simply by agreement. Hm.

udaraṁ-bharatā svārthaḥ
satyatve dhārṣṭyam eva hi
dākṣyaṁ kuṭumba-bharaṇaṁ
yaśo 'rthe dharma-sevanam
(SB 12.2.6)

One will be considered very expert if he can maintain a small family. He will be considered as Lord of eh? Letchmore.

Devotees: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: If he can simply maintain a small family, ah . . . dākṣyaṁ kuṭumba-bharaṇaṁ yaśo 'rthe. And people will be religious simply for reputation, "no this man is religious" that's all.

Revatīnandana: This is all five thousand years ago this was written down and it wasn't like that then. This is predictions.

Dr. Schumacher: It would be interesting to read this side-by-side with the Book of Revelations.

Revatīnandana: Yes, I read that 'Book of Revelations' recently and I can't make heads nor tails out of it. This is very clear. (laughs)

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Revatīnandana: I think everyone can make it in his own way.

Prabhupāda: Now it is mentioned here also that: lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam, people will consider to become . . . he has become very beautiful by keeping long hair.

Devotees: (laugh)

Prabhupāda: That is also . . . lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam, that we see practically. These are predictions, five thousand years these predictions were made.

Revatīnandana: Prabhupāda, can I ask, what is the very last verse?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Revatīnandana: What is the very last verse in the twelfth Canto? I heard it once. The last verse. Yeah, in the twelfth Canto. I once, I think I read it in one of the books but I can't remember it, it is very nice. I remember. Something about this age.

Prabhupāda: It is there, in the third fourth chapter.

Revatīnandana: The very end?

Prabhupāda: janma bhāvaṁ aniruddha. Here? sundanti devi . . . (indistinct) . . . the last verse is:

nāma-saṅkīrtanaṁ yasya
sarva-pāpa praṇāśanam
praṇāmo duḥkha-śamanas
taṁ namāmi hariṁ param
(SB 12.13.23)

Revatīnandana: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: "I offer my obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, simply by chanting his holy name one can become relieved from all sinful life."

Revatīnandana: That's the last verse.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Papworth: Well, Jesus said except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Papworth: All your . . . (indistinct) . . . seem to be busy being born again, it is very wonderful to see it happening.

Prabhupāda: Born again?

Revatīnandana: And Christ said. "Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God".

Prabhupāda: That means that in the kingdom of God there is life.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He is not dead.

Papworth: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Kingdom of God, the impersonalists they think it is void. No, it is not void, there is spiritual life that we also say, that we also say Bhagavad-gītā. There is description of the spiritual world, how they are enjoying there. There is also aeroplane.

Guest: Huh.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotees: (laughs)

Revatīnandana: He is. He wasn't quarrelling, he was observing that. He said that we appear to be very busy being born in that way.

Prabhupāda: That means, that the Christian religion accepts this, that there is life after death. And that life can be in the kingdom of God. You associate with God personally, talk with him, this is possible. We also say like that. This is our unnatural life that we are accepting death, this is not our natural. Our natural life is there is no death.

Papworth: Death has no dominion.

Prabhupāda: No. In the spiritual kingdom there is no birth no death. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. (BG 15.6) Everything is described in the śastra, one has to take to it and become happy, that is all.

Papworth: Well if I must say the deepened night has crept upon our talk I think we should . . . (indistinct) . . . a little rest for your sake.

Prabhupāda: Yes, no we are not fatigued because in spiritual life there is no fatigueness.

Devotees: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Whereas in the material life there is, birth, death, fatigueness, thirsty, hunger so many nonsense.

Devotees: (laughs)

Papworth: I'm was not thinking of your spirit but of your body.

Prabhupāda: No, we are spiritually conscious, we transcend the body.

Revatīnandana: One thing I'm still thinking about, do you really think that if Prabhupāda flies from place to place to preach this that the way to see it is that he is creating smog?

Papworth: It is one way of seeing it.

Revatīnandana: I know, but do you think that is the proper way of seeing it?

Vicitravīrya: Like Satish Kumar he was a Jain, right? And then he joined Gandhi's movement, Gandhi doesn't say that if there is a facility you don't use it, he travelled on trains and like this.

Papworth: Trains are another matter.

Devotees: (laughs)

Papworth: Very dangerous.

Prabhupāda: You have got all very different interpretation only.

Revatīnandana: The point is that there is so many millions of people in the cities all over the world and they are completely lost and they have bad leaders.

Prabhupāda: But we have no such philosophy that we cannot ride on an aeroplane or motorcar, no. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. One has to travel all over the world to preach this cult, so how you will go?

Papworth: Don't you find travelling in an aeroplane rather undignified?

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is the next dignified way?

Papworth: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You can suggest.

Papworth: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You can suggest.

Papworth: Steamer?

Prabhupāda: Yes I came first in the USA on boat, ship, oh it was so troublesome practically I was dying in the Atlantic.

Devotees: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) I become seasick, I was not eating at all.

Papworth: On the ship?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Papworth: Ah.

Guest: It seems to me, that as soon as you step into an aeroplane you accept the whole modern industrial world, by that one simple action. This is the logical conclusion.

Prabhupāda: We don't decry the industry we say that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do whatever you like.

Guest: Hm.

Papworth: But don't you think the Luddites were all Kṛṣṇa conscious than the people who follow them and defeated them.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Vicitravīrya: The Luddites they were a movement of angry.

Papworth: And breaking up machines.

Vicitravīrya: Yeah, acted industrially they actually broke up machines.

Revatīnandana: They didn't, they lost didn't they? The point is that.

Papworth: And now we are confronting a blank wall of thermonuclear destruction that is the price of their defeat.

Revatīnandana: Yes therefore the situation is desperate situation. The world is in a desperate condition.

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is that you remain your post, you simply hear about Kṛṣṇa that is our position. We don't say that you change your position, no. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu . . . you kindly lend your aural reception, that much we want. We don't say that you change your position. Instead of becoming industrial you become something else, no. That we don't. But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious the pollution will be over, that's all . . . ceto darpaṇa mārjanam.

Revatīnandana: You see, if you . . . if at this stage you say: "Oh, I won't use the aeroplane I don't hold with the television sets, I don't approve of . . . "

Prabhupāda: No, why should you no?

Revatīnandana: The newspaper. No I'm saying if they say that. If you say that, then you are saying all right nothing can be done.

Prabhupāda: No no.

Revatīnandana: We have to use these things now, you have to use these things right now.

Papworth: He is doing something, refusing . . .

Revatīnandana: You have to use it to stop the condition, later on you can decentralise.

Papworth: You can join my international campaign I've started. I'm the members so far but our slogan is, "Buy a book today and help stamp out television." Well, one it's a start.

Prabhupāda: No, why.

Papworth: You join me . . .

Prabhupāda: We don't condemn.

Revatīnandana: We can immediately.

Papworth: You could increase my numbers by 100%.

Revatīnandana: We can immediately reach millions of people with a television set, with kīrtana and our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: So why should we?

Revatīnandana: Why shouldn't we use it?

Guest: Because it is polluted by the great.

Revatīnandana: No, our philosophy, I speak the same philosophy over the TV as I do in this room . . .

Guest: Yes but . . . (indistinct) . . . isn't it?

Revatīnandana: . . . With the same exact effect. Kṛṣṇa is of . . .

Guest: I don't think you have understood . . .

Pradyumna: It is ridiculous to try to ride a bicycle to stop you know a major devastation. Ridiculous . . .

Papworth: . . . (indistinct)

Pradyumna: The logic is ridiculous. To try to ride a bicycle.

Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that everything is created by God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Therefore everything is good because God is good everything he creates is good, but eh . . .

Prabhupāda: The good must be used for the good.

Haṁsadūta: It is misused eh, it must be used for God. Then it is misuse . . . now everything is misused just like you are claiming England someone is claiming India and other claiming America. If we agree that everything belongs to God then everything can be divided, eh, or can be distributed properly, in God consciousness.

Papworth: Like the atomic bomb?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, even atomic bombs. If necessary.

Prabhupāda: Yeah. We shall use the atomic bomb for the demons.

(laughter)

Vicitravīrya: The atomic bomb existed five thousand years ago Prabhupāda can tell you.

Prabhupāda: It is the use of atom, just like Hanumān. Hanumān was a great devotee of Lord Rāmacandra but he set fire to the kingdom of Rāvaṇa not for his purpose but for the cause of Rāmacandra. So we can use the atomic bomb for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, he has got two businesses. To give protection to the devotees, faithful and to kill the demons.

Guest: I can't understand, this seems to be a very mistaken attitude from the East and from India. Why the . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you are again bringing India? We are talking generally.

Guest: Yes I specifically do, do.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Guest: Applying philosophical and spiritual truths.

Prabhupāda: Ooh! air means ooh.

Guest: Well if, if you.

Prabhupāda: I've not come here on behalf of India.

Guest: There are a lot of movements from India, coming to the West.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be. That Christian movement for Jerusalem, that means it is Jerusalem. Why you have accepted? Why you have accepted?

Guest: Why do I accept it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why you think Christians are Englishmen?

Guest: I didn't say I did.

Prabhupāda: Well, because it is produced in India therefore you should simply stick India?

Guest: It isn't the question. No it isn't because it's in India, it's because at the present time philosophical truths are being applied.

Prabhupāda: But India may be rejected.

Guest: No not necessarily India.

Prabhupāda: But necessarily we have rejected, we have rejected.

Guest: It just happens to be . . . you're being over sensitive.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: They happened to be from India.

Prabhupāda: No I mean to say the government has no program for pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like we are preaching no intoxication. Now the government introducing intoxication. So what can be done? Now the government . . . Gandhi started prohibition, now the present government is introducing wines to the society and encouraging it, "yes you drink wine".

Guest: You accept material goods and you don't accept.

Prabhupāda: We don't want material.

Guest: . . . moral . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: . . . or anything, we want spiritual that is all. That is our philosophy.

Revatīnandana: Everything used for sense gratification is material and everything used in the service of Kṛṣṇa is spiritual.

Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. (break)

Revatīnandana: We've got spiritual tape recorders, spiritual lamps, spiritual buildings.

Guest: That is verbal trickery. I don't think . . .

Revatīnandana: No it is not verbal.

Guest: It is.

Revatīnandana: No it is your inability to perceive it.

Prabhupāda: You don't understand that.

Revatīnandana: It is your inability to perceive it.

Prabhupāda: I have given that example, the iron rod, put it in the fire, it becomes warm then it becomes red hot and when it is red hot is it iron rod or not a fire? Tell me?

Papworth: The irons.

Prabhupāda: The iron rod you put into the fire it becomes warm, warm warmer then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot do you treat it as iron rod or fire?

Guest: No redhot?

Prabhupāda: Yes, so similarly by spiritual activities you become spiritualised, that is the point, that is the point.

Guest: That is material, that's all.

Prabhupāda: No no.

Guest: That is material.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you require training, training you cannot understand. I'm giving the example, the iron rod when it is put into the fire it becomes warmer warmer at last it becomes red hot. So when it is red hot you touch anywhere it will burn. That means it has got the quality of the fire by associating with the fire. Similarly if you associate with spiritual understanding then you become spiritualised. Anything associated with spiritual activities it becomes spiritualised. Just like we offer you the prasādam, what is the difference between prasādam and ordinary food?

The same puri, same kachorī, or the same vegetable others are eating also but how this prasādam has become spiritualised? Because it is offered to the God. Similarly everything you do in connection with the service of the Lord that is spiritualised. Actually in the ultimate sense there is nothing as material because everything is from God so there cannot be anything material because God is spiritual.

But when we forget the connection of God with anything, that is material . . . just like cloud in the sky, darkness actually in the sky there is no darkness but when there is cloud covering the sun it is called darkness, but when the cloud is not there, it is light. Sunlight. So when there is no forgetfulness of God, there is all spiritual.

Schumacher: Well I think, the problem whether to use an aeroplane which I've never experienced as a great problem. Hm, shouldn't worry you. He has to go back to Central Africa.

(laughter)

Prabhupāda: He can go gradually. (laughs)

Guest: It certainly seems a more dignified way than on the back of a camel.

(laughter)

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Guest: We are suffering so many disadvantages through the . . . through the modern civilisation that I think a few advantages.

Prabhupāda: No. Not for the modern civilisation but for forgetfulness of God that is our proposal. You can advance in modern civilisation but don't forget God, that is our point.

Papworth: Well if you could create some Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the Arabs and Jews so that they would reopen the Suez Canal.

Prabhupāda: That you can do. You are very much anxious, we leave the business to you.

Papworth: Then I could go back by ship. (laughs)

Revatīnandana: The point is that if we want the people to become happy to go back to a simpler life, live in a village and be happy there in a simple peaceful life we have to first make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. For that we will use everything.

Papworth: In twenty years time they will have absolutely no choice. This country, your āśrama here it will be a first aid post with millions of people pouring out of London looking for food they cannot find, starving.

Revatīnandana: That may be, but before they will do that they will fight to the death to get it from other countries.

Papworth: To get what?

Revatīnandana: They will fight to the death to get the food and land from other countries. They will never come out of the city peacefully unless they are God conscious.

Papworth: They will when they are starving.

Revatīnandana: No they will fight first there will be violence and there will be destruction. They are not so rational as you are, most people.

Papworth: Well perhaps they are not as . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs)

Revatīnandana: They are very attached, they are very attached.

Vicitravīrya: (indistinct) . . . before that when . . .

Prabhupāda: Sarve sukhino bhavantu: let everyone become happy that is our plan.

Papworth: Well I think it was you who said it, men found the paradise, or make this world into a paradise they would at once because of some compelling evidence in their natures turn and destroy it. What have you to say to that?

Revatīnandana: He said this psychologist once said that if man somehow turned this world into paradise, something in them would make them turn round and destroy it, what do you say to that?

Prabhupāda: Who did say?

Revatīnandana: He says the same man who creates the paradise something in them will make them turn around and destroy it, the same man who created will destroy it.

Vicitravīrya: This was a western psychologist who said this.

Revatīnandana: So he is asking about that.

Prabhupāda: I create something good and destroy it?

Revatīnandana: Yes, he says that this psychologist said that men will do that, so. He wants to know what you say?

Prabhupāda: That is material, that is material. Just like father creates money and the son inherits and he destroys, we have seen it. A rich father's son he got money without any labour and destroyed. He doesn't like to remain a rich man he becomes a poor man. That is in the material world, everything is changing therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means changing. These are the functions of the material world, that is not spiritual world. Spiritual world everything is permanent. That is the conception of this material world, psychologist.

Revatīnandana: What is that verse where Kṛṣṇa says on achieving this he thinks there is no higher gain?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ
manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ
yasmin sthito na guruṇāpi
duḥkhena vicālyate
(BG 6.22)

That is the highest perfection, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti. This is the Vedic version.

Papworth: What is the translation?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Papworth: What is the translation?

Prabhupāda: If you become situated in God consciousness then you will cease to . . . that I have already explained, no hankering no lamentation. You will be satisfied, now I have got everything. And if one is situated in God consciousness, if there is greatest type of danger he is not agitated because he is confident that God is there if he likes he can kill me if he likes he can save me, I am prepared for everything.

Dr. Schumacher: I think I must. I thank you and I excuse myself.

Prabhupāda: Yes thank you very much.

Dr. Schumacher: I have to go to the other side of London.

Prabhupāda: No we don't detain you. So you have got your car, no?

Vicitravīrya: Now we will take him back.

Prabhupāda: All right take him. Thank you very much. So you are all thoughtful men just consider and try to convince people about the importance of this movement that is our request. Yes.

Devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya . . . (cut) (end)