730227 - Conversation A - Jakarta

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



730227R1-JAKARTA - February 27, 1973 - 71:12 Minutes



(Conversation with Indonesian Scholar)


(poor audio)

Scholar: This Bhagavad-gītā translated into Indonesian.

(pause)

(01:45)

Prabhupāda: So will you explain me in English some of the Fourth, Fourth Chapter?

Scholar: Fourth Chapter.

(pause)

This about yoga. About yoga, Fourth Chapter.

Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter?

Scholar: About that yoga has been taught by Vivasvān, and Vivasvān taught to Manu, and Manu taught to Ikṣvāku.

Prabhupāda: So only the translation is there?

Scholar: Yes. Translation and some explanations.

Prabhupāda: What is that explanation?

Scholar: He said that Vivasvān's just the personification of Sūrya, the sun-god. He is the first man created by Brahman, and he learns yoga from Brahman itself. And then we...

Vivasvān taught yoga to Manu, who is the creator of the law, and of institutions. Just explaining only the..., who is Ikṣvāku, who is Vivasvān, and so on. There's no philosophical explanation here. Just word-by-word explanations. Because of course, if you compare with...

Prabhupāda: But, er... He said that indirectly... In the Bhagavad-gītā, the original verse can you read? Original verse?

Scholar: Śrī bhagavān uvāca: imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1).

Prabhupāda: Yes. This bhagavān uvāca.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "The Personality of Godhead said."

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now, "I spoke this." He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham. So Kṛṣṇa says, Bhagavān says, that "I spoke." But the translation is that the Brahmā spoke.

Scholar: No. Śrī Bhagavān spoke. (indistinct) Śrī Bhagavān spoke that...

Prabhupāda: Śrī Bhagavān spoke.

Scholar: Yes, Śrī Bhagavān spoke.

Prabhupāda: But you told me Brahmā.

Scholar: No. Śrī Bhagavān spoke, telling people, telling Arjuna that yoga has been taught by God to Vivasvān.

Prabhupāda: God. God, "By Me." He said that "I taught."

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But why the translation that God said Brahmā... Bhagavān said that this was spoken by Brahmā?

Scholar: By...? No, in explanations...

Prabhupāda: No, not explanation. First in the translation.

Scholar: In the translation. Mentions "I", "I," mentioned. (Indonesian)

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Scholar: Yes. It's mentioned there.

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Scholar: Yes, it's mentioned there.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, Bhagavān said that "I spoke." Is that?

Scholar: Bhagavān said that "Yoga has been taught by Me to Vivasvān."

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's nice.

Scholar: Yes. And then Vivasvān taught it to Manu and so on.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is nice translation.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But you had explained...

Scholar: Then explanation that Vivasvān is the personification of Sūrya, and he is the first man...

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by personification?

Scholar: As the... Personification; embodiment of Sūrya. So Sūrya is supposed to be...

Prabhupāda: No. He says that "I spoke to Sūrya, Vivasvān." Vivasvān.

Scholar: Vivasvān. Yes.

Prabhupāda: So Vivasvān is a person.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Vivasvān is a person, not the personification. What is the translation..., explanation? Read it.

Scholar: Vivasvān, in Indonesian is, Vivasvān (Indonesian), is supposed to be...

Prabhupāda: Now what we have translated?

Śrutakīrti: "The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān. Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Ikṣvāku. "

Prabhupāda: Now what is the explanation?

Śrutakīrti: "Herein we find the history of the Bhagavad-gītā traced from a remote time when it was delivered to the royal order, the king of all planets. This science is especially meant for the perfection of the inhabitants, and therefore, the royal order should understand it in order to be able to rule the citizens and protect them from the material bondage, lust.

Human life is meant for cultivation of spiritual knowledge, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the executive heads of all states and all planets are obliged to impart this lesson to the citizens by education, culture and devotion. In other words, the executive heads of all states are intended to spread the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that the people may take advantage of this great science and pursue a successful path, utilizing the opportunity of the human form of life..."

Prabhupāda: This Vivasvān is the original person of the kṣatriya family, Sūrya-vaṁśa.

Scholar: Sūrya-vaṁśa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh?

Śrutakīrti: Does he mention Vivasvān here? Should I read it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrutakīrti: "The sun is the king of the planets, and the sun-god, at present of the name Vivasvān, rules..."

Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the president, or the predominating person, his name is given, Vivasvān.

Scholar: He's a person. He's a man.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Scholar: From Sūrya-vaṁśa, from the (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Not from Sūrya-vaṁśa. He's the origin of Sūrya-vaṁśa.

Scholar: Origin of Sūrya-vaṁśa.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Scholar: A thing about the Bhagavad-gītā also mentioned here, in the second verse, it's mentioned also that the Bhagavad-gītā is the oldest yoga. It's the oldest... Second Chapter, second verse.

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is... The explanation: Vivasvān is personification of Sūrya. No. He's person.

Scholar: Person. I see. Yes. Person and...

Prabhupāda: His name is Vivasvān.

Scholar: I see.

Prabhupāda: The predominating deity in the sun planet, his name is Vivasvān.

Scholar: Vivasvān, yes. And he's supposed to be the originator of...

Prabhupāda: He's the original person for the... There are two kinds of kṣatriyas: one coming from the sun-god, and the other is coming from the moon-god. Candra-vaṁśa, sūrya-vaṁśa.

Scholar: That's a very good correction for us. (Indonesian)

Prabhupāda: Personification means he... From the transla..., explanation it appears that actually there is no person.

Scholar: Yes. Originally there was person.

Prabhupāda: Not was. Is. Is still.

Scholar: Is still.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their life is long duration.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There are kings, son of the Manus, they lived for eight..., eleven arbuda years. One arbuda years means ten crores. One crore means ten millions. Ten million. So ten million years makes one crore. Such eleven crore years yes... There is history, (indistinct)-pitā, one of the Manu, he reigned over for eleven arbuda years.

One arbuda means ten millions of years. So Vivasvān, Vivasvān, he's living for so many years. Just like Brahmā's age is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā.

(aside:) You find out the verse, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). What is the Chapter?

Śrutakīrti: Chapter Eight, 17.

Prabhupāda: Chapter Eight, seventeenth verse.

Śrutakīrti: Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17).

Prabhupāda: Now what is the translation?

Amogha: "By human calculations..."

Prabhupāda: No, no, I want to know this gentleman.

Scholar: "He who knows that the day of Brahman is thousand yuga and that the night of Brahman is also thousand yugas is he who knows the truth of day and night."

Prabhupāda: So now, what is the explanation?

Scholar: The explanation is that, according to the traditions that Brahman, the day or the night of Brahmans is one thousand yuga.

Prabhupāda: What is that yuga?

Scholar: It's mentioned in Chapter 4.8. Four, verse eight. Yuga is eight. One yuga is..., it's written here hundred years.

Prabhupāda: He does not know. He does not know what is yuga.

Scholar: One yuga is this one-eighths between the one incarnations to another incarnations.

Prabhupāda: But he has not given actual calculation of the years.

Scholar: The years, he mentioned here.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Scholar: Only the yuga of..., Kṛta-yuga is four thousand years. And Tretā-yuga is three thousand years.

Prabhupāda: No.

Scholar: Dvāpara-yuga is two thousand years, and Kali-yuga is one thousand years.

Prabhupāda: One thousand years? (laughs) We have already passed five thousand years.

Scholar: Wait. Oh. There is one thousand years, God's years. If it is human years, it is four million three thousand..., three hundred twenty thousand years.

Prabhupāda: Total. There is...

Scholar: Four millions and...

Prabhupāda: That is the total yuga.

Scholar: Yes, in human years.

Prabhupāda: Human calculation.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then it is alright.

Indonesian Scholar: Four million three thous..., four, three, two...

Prabhupāda: About forty-three. About forty-three hundred thousands of years.

Scholar: Forty-three.

Prabhupāda: Hundred thousands of years. That makes it yuga.

Scholar: Yuga, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Brahmā's daytime is such forty-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand.

Scholar: By one thousand.

Prabhupāda: Forty-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand. So forty-three hundred thousand... That forty-three, five zero, and again three zero. Then how..., what it comes?

Scholar: Forty-three millions.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Forty-three, five zero... Upon forty-three, add eight zeros. Then what it comes to?

Scholar: Ah. (devotees try to calculate)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Scholar: (Indonesian) Billion. Four billions of years. Four billion years.

Prabhupāda: Four billion years is twelve hours of Brahmā's life.

Scholar: (laughs) Just one day only.

Prabhupāda: One day only. Similarly, one night. Then one day.

Scholar: So we have got eight billion years, one day of Brahmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the calculation.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So things are very complicated, and people should understand very rightly. They are..., they are frog philosophy. Frog philos... We say frog philosophy. Frog philosophy means that a frog who lives in the well, he has got experience of water, three cubic feet. And if he's given to understand that there is Atlantic Ocean, it is very difficult for him to understand. So on the whole, it is... But it is not very completely explained. And our point is this... Or at least it will give some idea of the Bhagavad-gītā to the people.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But still it has to be expanded, it has to be more explicitly ex..., advertised. So our point is this, that we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are spreading the knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā. So this is a worldwide organization, and you know something about us, about this movement. So this part of the world... This is Southeast Asia?

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Southeast Asia. Why not combine it, join together, and scientifically preach this cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? People will be very glad to accept it.

Scholar: What is the place of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here, in this movement?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Scholar: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is... The Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Just like before learning any literature, one has to read the first book, A-B-C-D. The Bhagavad-gītā is the A-B-C-D. It is just beginning of understanding of what is God. A-B-C-D. When one has passed the entrance examination, then he gets the opportunity of studying Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In the Bhagavad-gītā the last instruction is, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is explaining Himself, and at last He says that "You surrender unto Me." That is the most confidential part of knowledge.

So if one has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, then he is admitted in the college of studying Bhāgavata. Before that, he has no place. Just like without passing entrance examination, nobody's admitted in the college course. Similarly, without understanding Bhagavad-gītā perfectly well, one cannot understand what is Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata is the graduate study. So this Vedānta-sūtra, the Vedānta-sūtra is the summarized study of all Vedic knowledge. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the explanation of Vedānta-sūtra.

So people are in darkness about this great knowledge of the science of God all over the world. They are misled. They're being misled. Misled in this way: that this human form of life is specially meant for understanding God. The animals are not meant for this (indistinct), but the present leaders, they're keeping all human being in the animal condition of life. Their chance of becoming conscious about God is being sacrificed, being misled, by so-called economic development, plans. All this economic development means they're meant for this bodily comforts. Any department of knowledge at the present moment, they're simply aiming at giving some artificial comfort to this body. But these rascals, they do not care to know that however I keep this body comfortably, I'll have to give it up. And after giving up this body, what is my next position they do not know. They do not know. This is darkness. This is darkness.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a educational movement to give enlightenment to the people at large to understand the values of life. Not to live like animals—eating, sleeping, sex life and dying. This is animal life. So this is the best humanitarian welfare activities: to make people understand scientifically what he is, what is God, what is our relationship with God. So the Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of this science. So this should be presented very scientifically, one who knows perfectly well about this Bhagavad-gītā. These are the crucial point, that one... Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). There's so many very touch point. If they are not very..., explained nicely, people will remain in darkness.

Scholar: But we think in the present day, Indonesians, we think about harmonizing spiritual and material aspects of life. This our states here, what they...

Prabhupāda: No. No. Harmonize means... First of all you must know what is harmonization. Harmonization means that this material life means bodily concept of life. This is material life: "I am this body." Generally people think like that: "I am Indonesian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." And they take care of the country where he's born. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijyadhīḥ (SB 10.84.13).

But this conception, bodily conception of life, has made the whole human society like cats and dogs. "It is my land. It is my..." Just like a dog, as soon as another dog comes. "Gow-gow-gow-gow. Why you have come here? Why you have come here?" So this, this kind of harmonization is dog civilization.

Scholar: Well, I think it's the...

Prabhupāda: No. No. No. You cannot... First of all we have to understand what is spiritual value of life. Then we can harmonize. If you do not know what is spiritual life, then what you can harmonize? That is the teaching of Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning, when Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru, then He began to explain about the value of life. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam (BG 2.13).

(aside:) Find out this verse. It's in the Second Chapter. Which verse?

Śrutakīrti: Two, thirteen.

Prabhupāda: Second Chapter, thirteenth verse. Find out. Read it.

Scholar:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tattva na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Translation.

Scholar: "After using this body..."

Prabhupāda: After...?

Scholar: "After using this body from childhood to youth and to old age, and afterwards changes into another body. He who is wise will not be..., will not be disturbed."

Prabhupāda: Disturbed. Now, here is the indication that after death we have to accept another body. Is it not?

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now, what kind of body you are going to accept? There are 8,400,000 varieties of bodies. Is it not? Eh? Do you know that?

Scholar: No, we don't know. (laughs) So many kinds, so many varieties of bodies.

Prabhupāda: There are forms of body in the water, in the land, so many trees, plants, then there are so many insects, reptiles. Then birds, then there are beasts, then there are human being. So there are 8,400,000 forms of body. So here it is indicated that after giving up this body, the soul is going to accept another body. Now the human civilization, is it not duty of the human society to know what kind of body I am going to accept?

Scholar: No, I think it's up to God and karma-kāṇḍa.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Scholar: Up to God and karma-kāṇḍa.

Prabhupāda: So then they must know what is karma-phala. This is the fact. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). But they are..., do not know how to execute karma. They're doing all kinds of sinful activities. So, suppose after this body, on account of my sinful activities, I am going to become a rat or cat or snake or a tree, then what is the use of my so much, how you'd say, jumping over nationalism and this "ism" and that.

If by nature I am going to accept next life the body of a cat and dog, or a tree, then what is the meaning of my this so-called nationalism at the present moment? Is it not the duty of the guardians who are taking care of the people, or their son, to educate human being in such a way that they can get better body? Where is that education? You are darkness; nobody knows what kind of body he's going to accept next life.

Scholar: At least we can start from living a moral life.

Prabhupāda: But they're not living. They're not living. They are doing all kinds of sinful activities. They are drinking, they are having illicit sex, they're gambling, they're killing animals. Very sin... Everyone is engaged in these things. Maybe few percentage people are not engaged. But the throughout the whole world they're implicated in these four kinds of sinful activities. How you can expect that he's going to have next body very nice? No. That is not possible if we believe in the karma, according to karma.

Just like here in the human society there is law that if you kill a man, you should be also killed. Similarly, in God's law, so the same law is there. Māṁ sa, māṁsa. If I eat an animal, then he will have the chance to eat me next life. This is karma. Who is caring for all these things? Who is caring? Nobody's caring. They're slaughtering animals like anything. So this kind of adjustment will not help. They must know scientifically what is the value of life. They must take information from authorized scriptures. Then the human society will be profitable. Otherwise no.

Just like there is next life, a boy is educated to have good education so that in the next life—means when he's young man—he will be happy. He's preparing for the next life. The boy is being educated. That means he's preparing for the next youthful life. The youthful life is meant for preparation for the next old age life. Then what we are preparing now for the next body? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhutāni
yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām
(BG 9.25)

So where is that education?

Scholar: I think it's also according to the society. First we have to learn, and after we come to the stage of sannyāsī, only then we are...

Prabhupāda: It is no question of sannyāsa. Sannyāsa, you take or not take, you must be in knowledge what is your next life.

Scholar: But if the...?

Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say we shall keep ourself in darkness about our next life? Is that your philosophy?

Scholar: Well, I think we have to start from child... We give a child educations, and then gṛhastha and vānaprastha...

Prabhupāda: That is all right, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, that is a..., different stages.

Scholar: So if everybody is...

Prabhupāda: But the real education is that you have to die. You have to accept another body. What kind of body you are going to accept? If you do not know that, what is this meaning of gṛhastha and vānaprastha and sannyāsa? It is all rascal. If you do not... You miss this real point, then what is this meaning of this? There's no meaning. Simply by dressing in white cloth one becomes gṛhastha? And simply by dressing one, in this saffron cloth, he becomes sannyāsī? By changing dress he becomes everything? He must know that what is the aim of life. Everyone should know what is the ultimate goal of life.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: If he does not know, if he is in the darkness for the next life, then what is the meaning of this gṛhastha and vānaprastha and this...?

Scholar: We believe in the stage of life, so we prepare from childhood, and after gṛhastha...

Prabhupāda: Yes, not only we, but everyone should prepare from the childhood. This is... This Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for a particular class of men. It is meant for the human society. So this education should be spread all over the world to save them from pitfalls of a life of darkness. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We do not mean that the Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the Hindus or for the Indians or for the Indonesians. No. It is meant for everyone. They should know the science.

Scholar: Are there Christian also, or Muslim also joining this...

Prabhupāda: What's this? Don't you see? There are many Christians, many...

Scholar: Do they have to be Hindus first?

Prabhupāda: Well, why you are stressing to become Hindu and Christian? It is that education for understanding the values of life.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Hindu, Muslim. Any intelligent man will take it. Suppose if you want to be a great mathematician, does it mean that you must be a Hindu or Christian or Muhammadan?

Scholar: But by using threads, attributes of Hindu religion...

Prabhupāda: No, attributes... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Muhammadans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma: four varṇas, four āśramas. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśramas—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the... a human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being; he's animal. Because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama.

The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four division—the head division, the arms division, the belly division and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they're required to function the society perfectly. That is varṇa. And similarly, for spiritual emancipation there must be the division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So unless you accept this institution perfectly, you cannot develop your consciousness as perfect human being.

Scholar: This divisions only in Hindus.

Prabhupāda: No, this division is meant for everyone.

Scholar: Muhammadans also accept this divisions?

Scholar: Yes. They're accepting. If you don't accept any scientific truth, that is your business. That is your business. If you say—two plus two equal to four—"No, I don't accept," that is your business. But two plus two equal to four, that is a fact everywhere. Now how these boys have accepted? Now they have got sacred thread, they have become brāhmaṇa.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And they're acting as actually brāhmaṇa. There are many Muhammadans also. They came from Muhammadan. So it is the process of presenting the perfect educational system. Then everyone will accept. Any intelligent man will accept. It is a science.

So you have to push this scientific movement throughout the whole world. That is our program. It is not a so-called Hindu cult or a Indian cult. No. It is a science to be accepted by everyone if he at all wants to, I mean to say, purify or make his life perfect. Otherwise, he's in darkness. He does not know what he's going to accept another body. He has to accept another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). It does not say that this kind of body. Dehāntaram, another body. Not it is up to you to select what kind of body I am going to accept. I am going to become a cat or dog or a demigod or a big man or a... They do not know yet.

This science is unknown to the whole world. We are trying to push on this scientific movement. This is our position. So if you want to cooperate with this scientific movement, then we are prepared. But if you have some other idea, that is different thing. But if we take it seriously as a scientific movement, then we are prepared to cooperate. And if should do. Simply formality will not help us.

Scholar: I think we think our stage has not yet come to that level, because Bhagavad-gītā only, still very few who understand it.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Scholar: Even, Bhagavad-gītā, still very few understand it.

Prabhupāda: People are in darkness. You mean to say when you said that we have not come to that stage, that means that you want to remain in darkness? Does it mean? You don't want to take this light. You have not come to this stage. Does it mean you want to remain in darkness?

Scholar: Well, not really. But step by step we have to enlighten ourselves.

Prabhupāda: But step by step... You have to know it. Step by step is there. First of all you have to fix up that we have..., this is the goal. Then we get step by step. But if you don't accept the principle, then you remain in darkness.

Scholar: I think the principle is the same, but by the way to perform, to go...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Your principle... If you teach the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, then you have to take the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. If you want to read Bhagavad-gītā, you remain in other atmosphere, then it will not help. It is simply waste of time. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ janayati (SB 1.2.7). Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is also there. "I'm talking to the most confidential part of this knowledge." Sarva-guhyatamam. What is that?

(aside:) Find out. The Eighteenth Chapter. I think sixty-three verse. Where is that verse sixty-three?

Śrutakīrti: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam, "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge"?

Prabhupāda: Before that verse, what is that? Sarva-guhyatamam. (devotees look for verse) Ah, yes, yes. Sixty-three. Just open to sixty-three.

Scholar: Sixty-three.

Prabhupāda: Read it. (break)

Scholar: ...probably do...

Prabhupāda: "Whatever you like."

Scholar: "Whatever you like."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Whatever you like." That independence is there always. But he has... Just like we are speaking, "This is the aim of life." Now if you like, you can take, you'll not take—that depends on your independence. So that independence is all... Before that independence is there, therefore we are sometimes degrading from this human life to cats' and dogs' life.

So it is the duty of the human society to save the human being to degrade, from becoming again cats and dogs, or to elevate him higher and higher. Does it mean that we are..., we shall be satisfied with our present stage of life without knowing what we are going to accept? Is that very nice proposal? Or we shall try to elevate the human society, that is higher?

Scholar: Our aim is the same, to elevate the human being, but...

Prabhupāda: But if aim is the same, then you have to accept the means.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: If you do not accept the means, simply expecting that our aim is the same will not act. You have to accept the means. That means, it is explained in the next verse, sixty-four: sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). What is that? Sixty-four?

Scholar: Sixty-four, sarva-guhyatamaṁ bhūyaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

sarva-guhyatamaṁ bhūyaḥ
śṛṇu me paramaṁ vacaḥ
iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham
iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam
(BG 18.64)

Then sixty-five,

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te
pratijāne priyo 'si me
(BG 18.65)

This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So one has to become... If one is actually eager and serious for fulfilling the aim of human life, then he has to take to this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness:

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te
pratijāne priyo 'si me
(BG 18.65)

This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So one has to become, if one is actually eager and serious for fulfilling the aim of human life, then he has to take to this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness,

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te
pratijāne priyo 'si me
(BG 18.65)

So if you do not teach this lesson to the human society, then he will remain in the darkness. This is the purport. This is the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā.

Scholar: Mām here means Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Scholar: Or Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Why you bring Brahmā? Then you have not understood Kṛṣṇa.

Scholar: We are asking.

Prabhupāda: Why you are asking? Because you do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

Scholar: There is distinction here.

Prabhupāda: You are asking because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa.

Scholar: Because it's mentioned here.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He says mām. He says everything mām: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), mām eva. Everything mām, "I." So why you should bring Brahmā? Kṛṣṇa says everything "I." You are asking about Kṛṣṇa.

That means you do not understand Kṛṣṇa. But it is clearly said mām, "Kṛṣṇa." We have, therefore, given the name "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," nothing else, neither Brahmā consciousness, nor God consciousness. "Kṛṣṇa consciousness." The whole concentration is to Kṛṣṇa.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the fact.

Scholar: The explanation here is that from this śloka to the seventy-two...

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Scholar: From this śloka...

Prabhupāda: Which this śloka?

Scholar: From sixty-four.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Scholar: To seventy-two.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Scholar: Kṛṣṇa gains(?) or speaks as a guru, guru-śiṣya-samudbhava.

Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is the original guru, guru for everyone.

Scholar: So here is as a guru.

Prabhupāda: Guru is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore guru will also teach to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Scholar: From this movement, what has been..., what is the plan, and what is the...

Prabhupāda: Everyone should become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the plan. That is the whole plan. That is stated: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Just like this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, this is man-manā, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. This Kṛṣṇa chanting means thinking of Kṛṣṇa immediately, man-manā. Mad-bhaktaḥ, there is in the temple, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity, they are worshiping.

Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī, they are regularly, according to the rules and regulations, from morning call to up to ten, there is worshiping method. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Offer your obeisances. So then you come back to Me." That is perfection. They do not know where they are going, other they are going to be cats and dogs. But here, by this process, you go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore this should be adopted. Why should you spoil your energy to become cats and dogs? This is it.

Scholar: And for real life.

Prabhupāda: That is real life. That is real life: to go back to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you do not know where you are going. After all, you're preparing for something next. But your energy is being spoiled because do not know. But if you become kṛṣṇa-yājī, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, is it very difficult? Man-manā.

To think of Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, you are going to the temple, you're offering some prayers. That's all right. What is the difficulty if you offer the prayer to Kṛṣṇa? You have to do the same thing in a systematic way. Then mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25), then you go back to Kṛṣṇa. Next life is to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life.

Scholar: Well, I think the Bhagavad-gītā also mentions that many ways lead to God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Many ways, that is all right. But the best way He suggests, "Who comes back to Me." (chuckles) Many ways, there may be. You can go to hell, that is also another way. Therefore He says in the sixty-..., seven, sarva dharmān pari... "I have already suggested many ways. You give up, kick up all these ways. You simply surrender unto Me." That is the most confidential part of knowledge. So intelligent man should take it. And still if he likes many ways, let him do that. Let him go to hell. Who can check it? Yānti deva vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ... (BG 9.25).

He has suggested. You can go to the higher planetary system, you can remain here, you can become cats, you can become dogs, you can become bhūta, ghost. You can become anything you like, but "If you become mad-yājī, if you become a devotee of Me, then you come to Me." Now it is up to..., our position to make choice whether we are going to be a ghost, or become..., going to become the associates of Kṛṣṇa. It is up to us.

Scholar: What is His Divine Grace idea about Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga means degraded age.

Scholar: It's the time for that.

Prabhupāda: Degradation.

Scholar: It's the time for that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It has begun for the last 5,000 years. It's going on.

Scholar: And how long it will be?

Prabhupāda: And it will remain for another 427,000's of years. The whole duration is 432,000's of years, out of which we have passed only 5,000 years. That means the balance is 427,000 years. So at the end, people will forget everything about God. There are descriptions of this Kali-yuga. So if we again come back to Kali-yuga, it is not very good for us.

The symptoms have already begun. So actually, we must do something by which people may derive some benefit. Simply for formalities there is no value. And that, things are already mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have to simply follow the program, then life will be perfect.

(aside:) (Hindi) Fruit. Give them this prasādam, this fruit.

Scholar: How long this movement has been started?

Prabhupāda: This movement started from since 5,000 years, since Kṛṣṇa appeared. We have not start..., manufactured this movement. We are just pushing on the same movement, rightly, that's all. We can say how long this movement has been started rightly.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Prasādam means little.

The others may come, why you give such and such? Again you have to bring, if somebody comes.

Śrutakīrti: We'll be going shortly.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if somebody comes, again you have to go, bring back. People are not come here to fill up their bellies. (laughs) Little prasāda, that will satisfy. Only one piece.

Scholar: This movement started all over the world now.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Scholar: How many countries, for instance?

Prabhupāda: Whole world. Especially in America. America, Europe. From here been in New Zealand, Australia.

Scholar: Are they in the Arabic countries?

Prabhupāda: Arabic countries also, our men from Jerusalem. Jerusalem. That is an Arabic country. We send to Pakistan also, but due to this war, the American Embassy, they asked us to go away. They are going again, Bangladesh. We have got Russia, and we are negotiating with China also. So because you are here, you have taken the importance of Bhagavad-gītā, why not do it rightly and propagate nicely? That is our proposition.

Scholar: We will think about it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, think over it. (indistinct to devotee) When you have to go?

Śrutakīrti: (indistinct) around seven. (indistinct) Around six-thirty.

Guest (2): What is your opinion of life after death?

Scholar: Life after death?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, bring Kaumaka(?). Call him.

Devotee: He has left.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has left. All right. You come here, near.

Scholar: Life after death, he is asking.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is life after death. This is your question?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That whether there is life after death. What is your question?

Scholar: Is there life after death. Is this body (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: What is your opinion? It is a fact. Just like you are a child, now you are a young man. So you have changed your body. Similarly, when you change this body, you get another body.

Scholar: Life after death.

Prabhupāda: That is life after death.

Scholar: Is there any world or any...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Scholar: Any description of the worlds...

Prabhupāda: World is vast. So according to your karma... Just like you have got a particular type of body. You are young man; there is another young man also. Still, his body and your body is not exactly the same. His bodily feature, your bodily feature, his intelligence, your intelligence, they are all different. But a child grows to become young man, that's a fact. You are a child; another child was there. So they have got now different body.

Just like you have got a different body from your childhood life. Is it not? But you know that you had a childhood body, although the body is not there. This is transmigration from one body to another. Just like a dream at night: You change this body; you accept another body. And although you're lying down on your bed, you've gone to some other place. Subtle body. Take for... This is a fact that we change our body so many ways, but I, the soul, I remain.

So therefore, when this body will not exist I'll exist in another body. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, that na jāyate na mriyate vā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We can experience this, and it is confirmed in the śāstra, that after destruction of this body we are not destroyed. I, as living entity, I remain; I accept another body.

Scholar: Maybe the question is that whether the life after death is the same like our life here...

Prabhupāda: But, but, that is not (indistinct). If you get another body, naturally the same way of life. Same way of life means this life... This material body means four functions: eating, sleeping, sex intercourse and defense. So as soon as you get another body, it's the same business (indistinct). It may be dog's life, it may be cat's life, or it may be human life. But the business is the same: eating, sleeping, sex intercourse and defense.

Scholar: And the idea of nirvāṇa, and soul...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another. Then you have to prepare. That is not for the cats and dogs. That is meant for really human beings, yes, those who are actually executing life as human beings. That is not for the cats and dogs.

(pause) (indistinct comments by guest to other)

All right. Thank you.

Scholar: Thank you for this time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now my request is that you have got some... You are so many, you're interested in Bhagava... Do it right, that's all.

Scholar: Yes. (indistinct comments with others)

Prabhupāda: What he's asking?

Scholar: About what we are planning.

Prabhupāda: Planning, but you're not prepared for the planning. Otherwise I could have given you the plan. But you are not prepared.

Scholar: We are thinking about that.

Prabhupāda: You say you think of. Then you think of, what can I do?

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I was prepared to give you the plan. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63).

Scholar: I hope next time when this..., you'll come here when the..., we think we are prepared already. We hope so.

(pause)

Indian lady (1): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) Prasāda? We have prasāda? (Hindi)

Guest: (indistinct) ...spiritual statements... (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be all right. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Everything will be all right.

Guest: Is there nothing more (indistinct) than all this?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the duty of everyone.

Guest: It's very easy.

Prabhupāda: Very easy. And read these books.

Guest: Yes, I will buy these books. Thank you. (end)