770214 - Conversation B - Mayapur

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



770214R2-MAYAPUR - February 14, 1977 - 74:50 Minutes


(Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced)



Prabhupāda: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.

Satsvarūpa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.

Prabhupāda: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. The "demoncracy," the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge, and he's voting. This is most condemned process. Camara-bhangi, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he's voted to become, because he has got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, "Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister." You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he's voted a defense minister.

Hari-śauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybody's educated now. In America...

Prabhupāda: What educated? Educated means hippies. That's all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education. Education... University student was informed that "Next birth you may become a dog," so he said, "What is the wrong there?" This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.

Satsvarūpa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator, it can't be changed. But the people...

Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ
yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam
dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca
kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam
(BG 18.43)

He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, śūdras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?

Hari-śauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns?

Prabhupāda: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war. And such a big war, Kurukṣetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is... And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: if you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on, because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. But it is a fact.

Hari-śauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the kṣatriya system in Kṛṣṇa's time. Just like Jarāsandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a kṣatriya, even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's... No one is...

Prabhupāda: Everybody's śūdra. Nobody's brāhmaṇa, nobody's...

Hari-śauri: No.

[Break]

Hari-śauri: If that's done, then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?

Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education; be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.

Satsvarūpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up, He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Ihā bāhya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarūpa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupāda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely material. Niṣkiñcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiñcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bāhya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs all so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.

Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, "I am not brāhmaṇa, I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). So we are Kṛṣṇa..., preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-śauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupāda: But who will chant? Who'll chant?

Satsvarūpa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varṇāśrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds—(chuckles) these rascals, they are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Satsvarūpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasāda...

Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-śauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varṇāśrama is not possible.

Prabhupāda: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-śauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varṇāśrama and like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura to chant, it is not possible.

Satsvarūpa: We tell them, "Go on with your job, but chant also."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thākaha āpanāra kāje, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Āpanāra kāja ki. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, sthāne sthitaḥ (SB 10.14.3). And if they do not remain in the sthāna, then the sahajiyā's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyās also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (indistinct). He was not fit for sannyāsa, but he was given sannyāsa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varṇāśrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hari-śauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaiṣṇavas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to become Vaiṣṇava.

Hari-śauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava, is not so easy. If Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyāsa is for the highest qualified brāhmaṇa. And simply by dressing like a Vaiṣṇava, that is... Fall down.

Hari-śauri: So the varṇāśrama system is like for the kaniṣṭhas, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha?

Hari-śauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, yes.

Hari-śauri: Varṇāśrama system is beneficial.

Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Hari-śauri: He must be at least a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: The spiritual life, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a qualified brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brāhmaṇa, that is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

arcāyām eva haraye
pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate
na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu
sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ
(SB 11.2.47)

The brāhmaṇa means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brāhmaṇa there is no question of Vaiṣṇava.

Hari-śauri: No question of...?

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ
hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi
vidhunoti suhṛt satām
(SB 1.2.17)

By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities—śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya—means finished. So then next stage is śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ... Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brāhmaṇa, nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, Then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion. These are the base qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement,

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
bhagavaty uttama-śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
(SB 1.2.18)

Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guṇa.

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
bhagavaty uttama-śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
(SB 1.2.18)

Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ (SB 1.2.19). When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamaḥ, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. Kāma, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness—these things go. Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. These are rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddham. The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Then he is to be understood he's in the sattva-guṇa. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasīdati. In this way, gradual step. So it is very difficult to bring, introduce, varṇāśrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes, even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?

Satsvarūpa: Religion professors.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, higher studies...

Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."

Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.

Satsvarūpa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brāhmaṇa after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?

Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-śauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.

Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupāda: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

Hari-śauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. You'll be ha...

Hari-śauri: No need for even any brāhmaṇa initiation, then...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Hari-śauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

Hari-śauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...inclined.

Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... (BG 18.46). He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection, provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.

Hari-śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them..., let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he'll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty, and you become perfect.

Satsvarūpa: Today you've been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he's not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Here the bodily conception is going on: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."

Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra..."

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he's a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he's a Vaiṣṇava.

Hari-śauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?

Hari-śauri:

sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ
sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ
yathā vindati tac chṛṇu
(BG 18.45)

"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can... As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.

Hari-śauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.

Prabhupāda: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)

Hari-śauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...

Prabhupāda: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.

Satsvarūpa: If there's no tree?

Prabhupāda: You know castor seed tree, a plant? It does not grow.

Satsvarūpa: Small.

Prabhupāda: Small. So there is no banyan tree, it is taken, "Oh, it is very big."

Hari-śauri: I don't follow the analogy.

Satsvarūpa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big tree.

Hari-śauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Māyāpur now we have a situation...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.

Hari-śauri: So in Māyāpur here now we have that situation, that so many...

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpur or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra or vaiśya. He'll get the perfection. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra, you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

Satsvarūpa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brāhmaṇa...

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?

Satsvarūpa: What will the śūdras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?

Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.

Satsvarūpa: Oh.

Hari-śauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.

Hari-śauri: The principle we're following.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, if you want to do it in a larger scale, for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said para-upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Para-upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varṇāśrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible, and people will be happy.

Satsvarūpa: It requires powerful influence in the society to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Then everything will be all right. They're simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so our duty is to convince that "You are uselessly wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human... You take this. You'll be happy." We are safe. We have taken to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet shelter. There is no doubt. But... Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. He said that "I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals." Tato vimūḍha-cetasa indriyārtha: "They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification." Indriyārtha. And for that purpose, a few years, they're making huge arrangement, "How we shall become happy?" And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature's law is working, how he's going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mūḍho nābhijānāti (BG 7.25). To save these mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varṇāśrama, that "Here is the position."

Hari-śauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

Prabhupāda: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakāra. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.

Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms, when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms started, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.

Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working; digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say, if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now—capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly...?

Hari-śauri: Proletariat.

Prabhupāda: What is that proletariat?

Satsvarūpa: The laborers, who actually work.

Prabhupāda: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production.

Hari-śauri: Trade. Production.

Prabhupāda: And where is the kṣatriya and brāhmaṇa?

Hari-śauri: Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to...

Prabhupāda: That is not kṣatriya's business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Kṛṣṇa said He arranged the battlefield because the kṣatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength, as it is now...

Hari-śauri: Accumulation.

Prabhupāda: Hah. So Kṛṣṇa arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done, that all atomic bomb will come in warfield—one, next, third war. Finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kṣatriya. This is demonic. Kṣatriyas' business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kṣatriyas. They are not kṣatriyas; they are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish, all.

Hari-śauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varṇāśrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...

Prabhupāda: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."

Hari-śauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.

Prabhupāda: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.

Hari-śauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why revolution?

Hari-śauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: So why you are taking "we"? Why not others? This is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. You are thinking of "we." That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Hari-śauri: Well, the society.

Prabhupāda: It is not that "we." Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. You have to think for others also.

Satsvarūpa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.

Hari-śauri: We are thinking of "we" because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize.

Satsvarūpa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.

Hari-śauri: It can't be implemented on such a big scale.

Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say.

Satsvarūpa: Just like...

Prabhupāda: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.

Satsvarūpa: But no one's listening; no one's taking it up except a few...

Prabhupāda: But you take. You show them.

Hari-śauri: That's why we say "we."

Prabhupāda: That "we said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be śūdras. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.

Hari-śauri: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.

Hari-śauri: Well, again, that's...

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily that we are going to be śūdra. So that is it. That is the thing.

Hari-śauri: Well that's what I was saying.

Prabhupāda: We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And as servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa.

Satsvarūpa: So we can ideally organize ourselves, and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: Set the example.

Prabhupāda: Example. Just like Bhavānanda, when there was no commode here, he was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyāsī, Vaiṣṇava. Similarly, āpani ācari' jīve śikhāilā (CC Madhya 1.22). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "I am not a sannyāsī." But He took sannyāsa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyāsī for God? But He became that. (break) In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varṇāśrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varṇāśrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce. (pause) Now the days of wind will come from March.

Satsvarūpa: Winds begin?

Prabhupāda: And April this wind is...

Satsvarūpa: Winds begin now?

Bhavānanda: Yes. They'll start to come from the south. Vaikuṇṭha breezes.

Prabhupāda: Now here is a very nice institution for the benefit of the whole society, human.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our preaching in Bengal, many times we come to villages, and the people are very sincere. They say that "We have our village, but we need someone here to guide us."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: "If you could make one small little temple with Gaura-Nitāi and have someone here to tell us what to do..." They want to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Bhavānanda: But there's no one there to guide them.

Prabhupāda: So you reply this, that "You come. I shall train you. You will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you how to guide." This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon Mahārāja failed. Why? He wanted... Guru Mahārāja wanted that "You start one temple in London." But he was thinking of bringing..., taking men from India. Actually he had no... (break) That is the fact. Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, he wanted to serve Vivekananda, to become like Vivekananda, and "I shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda." That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and elevate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental Institute Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his position. He's appreciating how... We are simply condemning Gandhi philosophy, and he's appreciating Gandhi. We are simply depreciating Vivekananda, and he's introducing Vivekananda. This is his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem. That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means dehātma-buddhi. Dehātma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India, thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-seven years was for his education or something like that, and fifty years wasted. This is his position. And he's a big man. Actually he wasted fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in... He started in 1917, and svarāja was..., independence was given to India in '47. He had nothing... It is not due to him. It is that Subhas Bose's INA. So twenty years there, thirty years—fifty years he wasted of his life. And balance, twenty-seven, education, sex with wife and so on, so on. He was so sexually inclined, he has written in his biography that when his father was dying he was enjoying sex life with his wife. Just see how he was sexually inclined. He could not take the serious illness of his father: he's going to die. He was enjoying his wife. We can... Just from one point we can understand. Everyone is sexual in young days. That is generally. But just see his position, that his father was going to die, and he was enjoying sex.

Satsvarūpa: I read that. They called him, so he stopped having sex and went to the bedroom, but it was too late. His father was already dead. So he must have been actually having sex just at the moment his father died.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has written. Not only that. Nowadays somebody has accused that even in his old age he was having sex with young girls. I do not know. But it is a fact, when he was coming in the meeting he would touch two young girls, granddaughter and granddaughter-in-law, and then come in the meeting. I have seen. One gentleman in our..., the Mullik's Thakur Badhi, when we were there. He was attorney. So when there was some function, so all neighboring men were invited. So he was also invited. He would come with at least three, four prostitutes. And he was old man, blind. Asutosh Bhan. He became very rich man by cunning lawyer. He was a lawyer. So he would take a credit that "When I go to a friend's house to keep my invitation, I take some three, four prostitute and flatterer. Then..." Just see. And he'd be received very nicely. We have seen when, when we were boys, ten years, twelve years old. I have seen it. Formerly, in our father's time, it was aristocratic to keep one prostitute and keep one garden also. Then he'll get... So this man, dehātma-buddhi, and sexually inclined, he is mahātmā. This is the standard of (indistinct). Ramakrishna, he was worshiping goddess Kālī. It is condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20), that "Anyone who is worshiping a demigod, he is lost of all sense." So this man, by losing his all senses, worshiping a demigod, he became God. People do not take reference from Bhagavad-gītā, that "A demigod worshiper has no sense, and he has become God?" What kind of God? Senseless God? And God's definition is aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47), jñāna. God means full in knowledge. And a man who has no sense, he has become God? From logic? Jñāna-vairāgyayaś caiva. God means He has got full knowledge. And this man is senseless, and he has become God. Logic, how you can defy? And they're accepting: "Ramakrishna is God." How you defend it? I am giving this logic. Defend.

Satsvarūpa: I've given that argument, and people have said back, "Oh, he didn't say he was God." They say... He said that...

Prabhupāda: No, you are advertising, "Ramakrishna Avatāra," "Bhagavān Ramakrishna," "Bhagavān Ramakrishna." Everyone is God—then why you are after God? You remain. You are servant of your wife, your prostitute, then you are also devotee, because everyone is God. A prostitute-hunter is also devotee, because he's devoted to the prostitute and prostitute is God. Then why you search out another God? Hmm? Everyone is God. Why you search out another God? Why you bring Ramakrishna God? Better remain satisfied with your prostitute, your dog. (pause) (indistinct talking in background among devotees) That Dr. Sharma has given very good (indistinct)?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Of all commentaries his is the best, including Rāmānuja and Madhva.

Bhavānanda:

ye yathā māṁ prapadyante
tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
mama vartmānuvartante
manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ
(BG 4.11)

All paths follow... "Everyone follows My path in all respects." So even if I worship the demigods, I am worshiping ultimately Bhagavān. Kṛṣṇa says, "Everyone follows My path in all respects."

Prabhupāda: That is not the meaning. The meaning is: "Everyone is searching after Me, but they, unless they come to Me, they will search one after another position." What is the purport?

Bhavānanda: "Everyone is searching for Kṛṣṇa in different aspects of His manifestations. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is partially realized in His impersonal brahma-jyotir effulgence and as the all-pervading Supersoul dwelling within everything, including the particles of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa is only fully realized by His pure devotees. Consequently, Kṛṣṇa is the object of everyone's realization, and thus anyone and everyone is satisfied according to one's desire to have Him. In the transcendental..."

Prabhupāda: Brahman... Brahman is also Kṛṣṇa, and Paramātmā is also Kṛṣṇa. So if one is attached to Brahman, he's also worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is the meaning.

Satsvarūpa: Or even a demigod.

Prabhupāda: Demigod. Everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. But he's searching after real Kṛṣṇa.

Bhavānanda: But what is the harm? Durgā, she is in charge of... She is Kṛṣṇa's agent, so what is the harm in worshiping Durgā?

Prabhupāda: Harm means you remain with Durgā's province. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You cannot expect to go to Kṛṣṇa's place. You have to satisfy yourself and remaining within this material world. This is Durgā's place.

Bhavānanda: "Men in this world desire success in fruitive activities and therefore they worship the demigods. Quickly, of course, men get results from fruitive work in this world."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: So if I can become happy by worshiping Durgā in this material world...

Prabhupāda: But that... That is māyā. You'll never be happy. You are thinking like that. Who is in the material world happy? Nobody's happy. But because you are fool, you are thinking this is happiness.

Hari-śauri: He says the results are only temporary, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Temporary, but it is miserable also. But you are eternal. Why you should be satisfied with temporary happiness? If you be satisfied, be satisfied. That is your business. But that is not real happiness. Why you should take repeated birth and death? If there is another life where there is no birth and death, why should you not take that? You are eternal. But because you are a fool, you think that "If I get ten thousand years of life and very comfortable life, that is happiness." That is mistake. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.20). That is also said. Why don't you refer to that? "Such persons have lost that intelligence."

Satsvarūpa: I've heard that Ramakrishna said that even if by mistake one worships the wrong Deity, God won't hold that mistake against him. Even though he's worshiping a demigod and he thinks that's God, so that's a mistake, but God is not so...

Prabhupāda: But the Ramakrishna rascal saying. Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25): if you worship demigod, you go to the demigod. You can say...

Satsvarūpa: God Himself says.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. We have not to take the instruction of a man-made God. We have to take instruction of the real God.

Hari-śauri: The second half of that verse says that "As they surrender unto Me, I reward accordingly." So it's not that everybody gets the same results.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Accordingly." Because nothing can happen without Kṛṣṇa's desire. Even if you want some benefit from the demigods, that must be sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. That is stated. Mayaiva vihitān hi tān (BG 7.22). Find out. Ye 'py anya-devatā. Ye 'py anya-devatā. Ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktāḥ. (break)

Bhavānanda: They also say that everything... They accept everything as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Everything is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and everyone has same qualities as Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not the fact. That is rascaldom.

Bhavānanda: One drop of the ocean contains all the qualities of the big ocean, the chemical components...

Prabhupāda: Then all the qualities, not the quantity. Then how it can be equal?

Bhavānanda: But absolute means that a part is also equal to the whole.

Prabhupāda: Equal to the whole in quality, not in quantity.

Bhavānanda: Then in quantity means universal form.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bhavānanda: Not Kṛṣṇa. Not Kṛṣṇa but universal form.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is... Kṛṣṇa is bigger than the universal form. Kṛṣṇa assumed the universal form, not that universal form made Kṛṣṇa.

Bhavānanda: No, but everyone taken together makes Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna wanted to see His universal form; then Kṛṣṇa assumed. Then Kṛṣṇa is the origin of the universal form. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ... (BG 10.8). Even universal form is coming from Kṛṣṇa. These rascals, they do not know.

Bhavānanda: Their philosophy is that everyone taken together forms Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is their philosophy. But everything taken together means that is a partial manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is still greater.

Bhavānanda: If Kṛṣṇa says that "Everything material and spiritual is coming from Me..."

Prabhupāda: "Coming from Me." Therefore He is greater than both material...

Bhavānanda: ...does that mean Kṛṣṇa is beyond even spiritual?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri:

ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā
yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ
te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam
(BG 9.23)

Prabhupāda: Next verse.

Hari-śauri:

ahaṁ hi sarva-yajñānāṁ
bhoktā ca prabhur eva ca
na tu mām abhijānanti
tattvenātaś cyavanti te
(BG 9.24)

"I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Next verse.

Hari-śauri:

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām
(BG 9.25)

Prabhupāda: There is discrimination, yānti mad-yājino mām, not that everyone. Another verse... Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa...

Hari-śauri:

antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ
tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām
devān deva-yajo yānti
mad-bhaktā yānti mām api
(BG 7.23)

"Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet."

Prabhupāda: That is the...

Bhavānanda: Then how yato mata tato patha became so strong?

Prabhupāda: This is rascal. Therefore we say they are rascal. Path is one: mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and they have manufactured this, yato mata tato patha. Mata is one. Food has to be given to the mouth, not to the eyes. You can say, "Here is a hole, here is a hole, here is a..." Anybody. "No. This hole." There are nine holes all over the body. You cannot put food in either of them, only this one. You cannot water every part of the tree. Put only on the root, and everything is satisfied.

Bhavānanda: "I am not qualified to worship Kṛṣṇa, so let me just worship the Mother. She is part of Kṛṣṇa, so let me just worship her..."

Prabhupāda: You'll get the path of yānti deva. You go to Mother and become a goat and be sacrificed. You cut throat of a goat now by satisfying Mother, and next life this goat will cut throat, yours. Go to Mother. That's all. If you like, you can go. And if you think that is good—"By worshiping Mother, I am getting daily nice goat flesh. Why shall I go to Kṛṣṇa?"—that's all right. But be prepared, that so many times you'll be also cut, your head, and this goat will get chance to cut your head. Mother is witness. Mother is for the goat and for you also. So you are cutting the throat of the goat, so why the Mother will not give the chance to the goat to cut your head? Why do you think like that, rascal? The Mother is kind to me and unkind to the goat? That means naṣṭa-buddhi, lost intelligence. If you think Mother, then you must think that Mother of the goat also. Why Mother will tolerate? This is justice. Actually the mantra is there, that "Goat, you are sacrificing your life. You get immediately chance of human being." That is his profit. He would have evolved himself in so many lives and then get a human life. But because he's sacrificing his life before Mother, he gets immediately and lift to become a human man. And the human, because he becomes, he has got the right to cut the throat of the man who sacrificed him. This is the mantra. So if you take this risk, do that. Because how to become a goat, how to become a man, that is in the hands of Mother. That is not in your hand. So Mother, if she gives lift to the goat to become a man and if she degrades you to become a goat, that is in the Mother's hand. You cannot check it. Prakṛteḥ kriyamā... (BG 3.27). Mother is just to everyone. "All right, this man is cutting your throat. You just become human being and cut his throat. I shall make him a goat." How you can say "No"? Can you say? And Mother is all-powerful. Then you take the risk. And why Mother will make injustice? The poor goat, you shall cut the throat, and you remain human being, Mother's pet son? What is this logic? She is Mother means she is equal to every son. The goat is also her son; you are also her son. So you are taking advantage of this poor goat, and now he'll get this advantage. You, you become a goat. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). When you are being made into a goat, you cannot check it. That is in the hand of Mother. Then what is your answer? Will you take that risk?

Bhavānanda: Not if I'm intelligent.

Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Therefore anyone who worships these other demigod, they are hṛta-jñānāḥ. There is no sense.

Hari-śauri: Alpa-medhasa.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Alpa-medhasa.

Prabhupāda: Less intelligent. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You will remain within this material world. That is Mother's kingdom. This external world is controlled by the Mother, Durgā. She's in charge of this material world. So if you become a perfect devotee of Mother, you get all good chances in this material world—but not eternal life. Within this material world, wherever you go, everything is limited, either you become Indra or Brahmā or ant. Just like President Nixon, so long he was president he was doing everything as he liked, and now he's an ordinary man, he (indistinct). This is Mother's kingdom. Is that Mr. Nixon the same Nixon when he was president? But same Nixon is he, but the atmosphere and the circumstance the same? Does he not realize it? "How I was enjoying as President, and what is my position, everyone kicks on my face?" (laughter) Is that very good position? Therefore alpa. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). Antavat tu phalam. This position ultimately will be ended. Therefore less-intelligent class are after this, not very intelligent men. (pause) What is time?

Hari-śauri: Twenty to eleven. (end)