751218 - Morning Walk - Bombay

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



751218MW-BOMBAY - December 18, 1975 - 56:59 Minutes



Prabhupāda: ....very enthusiastic.

Dr. Patel: I got up very early today.

Prabhupāda: By the grace of Kṛṣṇa keeping good health.

Mennon: Yes, I have got...

Prabhupāda: You never use your shoes.

Dr. Patel: But on sand, really, with shoeless, this walking it is very...

Prabhupāda: Nehi, it is practice. So remember mahāshaya jasha(?) advertised.

Mennon: One medicine I think it is.

Dr. Patel: No, not medicinal. I practice..., all the time.

Mennon: (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: But sannyāsīs walk without anything. But you do pranayam.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) First rate is ninety-five. And the second one?

Girirāja: The second one is seventy, but he thinks that he can get it down to sixty-five.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi comment about dirt)

Prabhupāda: New York is the dirtiest.

Dr. Patel: New York.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There you'll find so many of this papers scattered.

Dr. Patel: In New York.

Prabhupāda: Even the park, the most celebrated park, Central Park, they are all full of dirt.

Girirāja: The city is going bankrupt.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Which?

Girirāja: New York City.

Dr. Patel: America will never go bankrupt so far material prosperity is concerned. Already sure people say...

Prabhupāda: There is no guarantee, sir.

Dr. Patel: No, there is (Hindi) (laughter). I'm sorry. Your words. Very, very crafty people in business. Nobody can beat Americans in business. They are monopolizing the world of business today. The prosperity of America is due to the, I mean, all the (indistinct). It is correct. (pause) This is Kali-yuga. People are so faithless. Human race has become faithless. They have no faith in God, they have no faith in themselves, and then their friends and other human beings also.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Modern..., not faithless: animals. Yes. Dvīpāda paśu, two-legged animals. Yes. They are animal, but two legs. That is the exact word used in Bhāgavata. Two-legged animals.

Dr. Patel: Dvīpāda.

Prabhupāda: Dvīpāda-paśu.

Dr. Patel: I think the human race should become all right by getting all these mark from God, all these...

Prabhupāda: That is going on. That is going...

Dr. Patel: This war, last, second war was so horrible, and the third will be perhaps in finishing the whole cosmos.

Prabhupāda: That war is always there. But still they remain two-legged animals. It requires education.

Dr. Patel: But sir, I feel wonder that Jesus Christ was so wonderful, I mean, brotherhood and all these things, and these..., practically people following his creed are warring like this.

Prabhupāda: No, who is following our Gītā?

Dr. Patel: (laughs) I mean practically why...

Prabhupāda: Why do you blame them? We are also blame. Nobody is following. That is animalism. They have got direction, but they won't follow. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. Mr. Shah, why don't you come and see how things are going on? You are expert in...

Mr. Shah: Nicely sir. I see it every day. Very good concrete building.

Prabhupāda: So if there is any defect.

Mr. Shah: It is perfectly...

Prabhupāda: Now we want to finish this. If you have got any good contact on labor?

Mr. Shah: Contact labor? Labor contact?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know Mr. Shah.

Mr. Shah: We have already discussed with him.

Dr. Patel: I have taken him to his house.

Mr. Shah: We have discussed with him.

Prabhupāda: We want to finish as soon as possible, give another set of contract, labor contract.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I'll try and find out.

Prabhupāda: Lingering...

Dr. Patel: (discussion about contractors with Mr. Shah) He will do anything, labor also.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Labor we want.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) asked my contractor. He is constructing that (indistinct) building. (indistinct) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...is the form where the animal can take education and become a human being.

Dr. Patel: Now these human beings, they get educated from animals.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is not education. This jarāvidya, material education, is no education. It doesn't require any education. This education for eating, sleeping education, that is not education, that is cats and dogs, they also know how to do it without education. Real education is brahma-vidyā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā—this is education. So that is now given up throughout the whole world. Nobody is interested in Brahman; they are simply interested in sense gratification.

Dr. Patel: Because I think, sir, the method of education the world over is absolutely different from what...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not education. The education for eating, sleeping, that is not education.

Dr. Patel: The way we were educating, our forefathers are educating their children, by this method of sending them to a guru in a āśrama...

Prabhupāda: That is real education.

Dr. Patel: And then they are prepared right from the brahmacārī āśrama for the highest goal, till he becomes a sannyāsī. Here he, he's neither this nor that.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no education. Real education is not there. Just like Cānakya Paṇḍita, he was not a spiritual man, but he was a prime minister. Still, he gave the standard of becoming educated. He said,

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ

Here is paṇḍita. What is he? Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: he sees every woman as mother, except his own wife. And para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: and others' property, possessions, just like garbage.

Dr. Patel: Stone.

Prabhupāda: And atmavat-sarva bhūteṣu: and feeling for everyone as he is feeling the pains and pleasures. If one has attained this stage, then he is paṇḍita. He never says these degrees. No.

Dr. Patel: These degrees are artifacts.

Prabhupāda: That is upādhi. Education is to become upādhi-less. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). But they are increasing upādhis. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: People think so far this country is concerned that education means giving the knowledge of how to read and write. I think it is the knowledge and not the education. Education is something different, that trains up your mind how to think, how to, I mean, separate grain from the chaff.

Prabhupāda: Education means (indistinct). Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is education.

Dr. Patel: No, but I mean to say, you must know how to separate the grain from the chaff. That is the real idea. We are not training our boys. We are not...

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā begins education, instruction. Immediately He puts forward that you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. Where is such education? Everyone is..., "You are this body." "You are Indian," "You are American," "You are Hindu," "You are Muslim." Where is education? Bhagavad-gītā says you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. And now education means be nationalist. Drive away and bark somebody...

Dr. Patel: (Hindi about passport)

Prabhupāda: No, why passport? Even in our country, Mahatma Gandhi was also infected: "Quit India. Quit India."

Dr. Patel: No, he did not mean quit India. He meant "You quit your matter of ruling." I mean, actually...

Prabhupāda: It was the exact word, "Quit India."

Dr. Patel: You know it more than me, sir, that in 1929 he told Britishers that "You rule India on the basis of they are ruling Canada." So he offered to give them ultimatum. Britishers did not know real stuff of India, otherwise they would have acted better.

Prabhupāda: That's not... As soon as you think, "He is my enemy and he is my friend," then there is no education.

Dr. Patel: That's it.

Prabhupāda: This is standard of education. Ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. That is education. Sama darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva (BG 5.18). That is education. That is paṇḍita. Again Kṛṣṇa says, nanu śocantipaṇḍitāḥ. Nanu śocantipaṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). "Ah, you are rascal." It is not the business of the paṇḍita to think like that. He never thought that the Kauravas were the enemy. No. That is not the fact. It is duty to fight the just cause. That was His instruction.

Dr. Patel: Mr. Nehru said Kṛṣṇa was the greatest warmonger.

Prabhupāda: And he is a rascal.

Dr. Patel: (laughing) He was saying so. He thought himself to be very big man. He thought himself...

Prabhupāda: Everyone thinks. Everyone thinks. That is asuric position—"Who is like me?"

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) viṣṇu-māyā.

Prabhupāda: That is asuric. And bhakta... Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā (CC Adi 17.31). That is bhakta. There is no education; therefore Kṛṣṇa has spoken of these people as mūḍha. "No, they are educated. They have passed so many examination"—māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This kind of education has no value, because they are forgetting the real point of education. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ (BG 7.15).

Dr. Patel: Āsurī bhāvam āśritaḥ. So what is āsurī, would be...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) means godlessness. "There is no God; I am God."

Dr. Patel: Believing in the...

Prabhupāda: No, no. "There is no God. I am God." What is that beginning? Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsura ajana (BG 16.7), and? There is no creator. What is the exact word?

Harikeśa: Apratiṣṭham.

Prabhupāda: Apratiṣṭham.

Dr. Patel: Apratiṣṭham te.

Prabhupāda: There is no cause of this creation. Kāma-haitukam: it has taken place just like a man becomes lusty by seeing a woman and he begets a child. This is the cause, this rascal desire, that's all.

Dr. Patel: Kiṁ kāma-haitukam.

Prabhupāda: Not kāma-haitukam. Kiṁ anyat kāma-haitukam (BG 16.8). That is the Sāṅkhya philosophers. That is their theory. Prakṛti and puruṣa come in contact by chance, and there is creation. Not God created. Their theory is, the prakṛti and puruṣa, they come in contact by chance, and there is creation.

Dr. Patel: But sir, this Sāṅkhya philosophy also believes in Vedas. And Vedas says sa aikṣata.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Sāṅkhya philosophy by the original Kapila, that is on the basis of Vedas. And this later Sāṅkhya philosophy...

Dr. Patel: Must be some another rascal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Now you have learned. (everyone laughs very loudly)

Dr. Patel: I am learning it. (laughs raucously)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are two Sāṅkhyas. Kapila. One Kapila is..., therefore he is described everywhere as devahūti-putra.

Dr. Patel: Kapila, the basis of the yoga.

Prabhupāda: No, yoga is Patañjali. Aṣṭāṅga-yoga. And yoga is also there in Bhagavad-gītā.

Dr. Patel: Sāṅkhya is the goal by knowledge, and yoga is by...

Prabhupāda: Yoga... Actually yoga means to keep the mind fixed up, yoga indriya samyama, to control the mind and the senses. That is yoga. Then other activities. If your mind is not controlled, you are in disturbed condition, then you cannot perform it. So it is a process to control the mind. And if one is able to control the mind, then he becomes real yogī, and at that time, dhyānavasthita, meditation. Dhyānavasthita tad gatena manasa paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Then he sees the Paramātmā always. That is perfection of yoga. (aside to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. Jaya. Thik hai.

Dr. Patel: All the śāstras have been spoken out by Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā totally.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is substance. Summary of all Vedas. He says therefore, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15).

Dr. Patel: (some muttering in background) Hah. He said yogo apra..., yoga can be caught and be lost also. But bhakti cannot be lost.

Indian man: What is the any question of lost? How do you get disjoined with the God?

Dr. Patel: Listen, if you are artificially joined, then you are dejoined.

Indian man: No, no. Then it is not yoga at all. Then you stop, automatically (indistinct).

Dr. Patel: That is why that yoga.

Indian man: Once then you say yoga then you are entering. You are not outside it.

Dr. Patel: My (indistinct). There are so many types of yoga, sir, as you know.

Prabhupāda: No. Bhagavad-gītā summarizes, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47). That is real yogī.

Dr. Patel: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmana me yuktatamo mataḥ. That is the highest yoga.

Indian man: Yoga means karmendriya-dhāraṇām. Where is the question of yoga...

Dr. Patel: No, no. When the indriya-dhāraṇām is not (indistinct) it becomes (Hindi). Then it is faith, then yoga is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yoga indriya-śamanam. The result of yoga is control—mind and senses, śama, dama.

Dr. Patel: So many types of yoga. Even bhakti is called a yoga. Bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yoga. Everything is yoga which links up.

Dr. Patel: (talking about passerby) He used to join, he really used to join with yoga as (Hindi).

Prabhupāda: So, we shall return?

Dr. Patel: Seven o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...and viyoga. Viyoga. Viyoga means disconnected.

Dr. Patel: He was my nephew, so I had to talk to him.

Prabhupāda: Yoga and viyoga, and the opposite is viyoga. So viyoga is material.

Dr. Patel: Separation.

Prabhupāda: Bhinnā me prakṛti aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). Those who are connected with this material energy, they are apparently viyoga. So we have to attain for yoga. That means turn back again, back to Godhead. That is yoga.

Dr. Patel: He quoted that thing from Kathopaniṣad.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, what is that?

Dr. Patel: Yogo bhavateo(?). Yoga can be caught and can be lost. Yoga can be caught and can be lost. So that type of yoga. Not this bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupāda: No, this is lost. When you are in materially, that is lost. And when you are spiritually joined, that is gained. Yoga and viyoga. Tasmād yogī bhavārjuna. Kṛṣṇa is recommending to become yogī, bhakta-yogī.

Dr. Patel: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ yogatena āntarātmanā (BG 6.47), and then, er,...

Prabhupāda: In another place...

Dr. Patel: Yo māṁ bhajate ananya bhāk..., sa me yuktatamo mataḥ. Yogo māṁ bhajate ananya bhāk.

Prabhupāda: Sa sannyāsī sa yogī ca.

anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ
kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ
sa sannyāsī ca yogī
na niragnir na cākriyaḥ
(BG 6.1)

(Hindi) No, akriya means no material activities, only spiritual activities. That is akriya. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Namaste. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: Sir, this Ramanujacarya said, akarma means knowledge, and karma means that karma which binds you with this.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: That karma which you do, which binds with the...

Prabhupāda: Karma means you are implicated with the result. That is karma. And vikarma...

Dr. Patel:

kiṁ karma kim akarmeti
kavayo'py atra mohitāḥ
tat te karma pravakṣyāmi
yaj-jñātvā mokṣyase 'subhāt
(BG 4.16)

That karma which you do without any links on it, for the sake of God, tat tat karma tu kaunteya sa sannyāsī ca...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yajñārtha-karma, that is real. Yajñā...

Dr. Patel: That is what he has explained.

Prabhupāda: Yajñārtha means for the satisfaction...

Dr. Patel: Yajña means for Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yajña means Viṣṇu. For the satisfaction of Viṣṇu, one has to work. And Prahlāda Mahārāja therefore says that these rascals, they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ (SB 7.5.31). These rascals, they do not know what is real self-interest. Svārtha-gatim.

Dr. Patel: But they are..., they are body conscious. So the svārtha body is this one.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are not soul conscious, because they...

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are na te vidhuḥ. They are working hard that "This is my interest." But actually that is not his interest. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: The interest of the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not in his interest, because it is changing. Suppose a person comes to a foreign place, and he becomes only interested where he is staying, and after a week he is driven away. Then what is interest? You are eternal; you must have eternal interest.

Dr. Patel: And that education comes from the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that there is no education. They do not know what is interest. They are making a small limitation, "This is my country. My interest is to become a national. I will sacrifice my life for this, that." This is going on. Whole world is going on, na te vidhuḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum.

Dr. Patel: And, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). That should be taught right from the early childhood.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is brahmacārī. Where is that education?

Dr. Patel: These educations are given to the Vaiṣṇavas in their homes. They are Vaiṣṇavas. But then so-called Vaiṣṇavas, these bāṇiyās, they are ruthless. Ruthless, absolutely ruthless...

Prabhupāda: Bāṇiyās, kṣatriyas... There is no bāṇiyā, kṣatriya...

Dr. Patel: No, what I mean to say...

Prabhupāda: ...everyone is śūdra.

Dr. Patel: No, no, really sir, but they are in business. They don't consider that they are this soul; they consider the body comforts and body.

Prabhupāda: That is śūdra. One has to become a brāhmaṇa, jñānam. But they have no knowledge; therefore they are śūdra. Brahmana means jñānam, vijñānam and āstikyam: "Yes, there is God, and He is the original cause of everything." That is brahma-jña. Brahma jñānārthī brāhmaṇa. So where is brāhmaṇa? All śūdras. Kalau śūdra sambhava. Especially in this age of Kali, everyone is śūdra, or less than śūdra. But still Kṛṣṇa gives the opportunity, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. How? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32), he may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the śūdras, they are also.

Dr. Patel: Just like essence of the Vedic knowledge has been given in the story form in Bhāgavata. That is how these people could understand them. These...

Prabhupāda: It is not story. It is history...

Dr. Patel: No, no, some are stories and divya stories.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is history and philosophy. They are not stories. When it is a story, it is mentioned it is like a story. Just like bhāvārthābdhi. Bhāvārthābdhi. That is mentioned there. There are many such statement which is not history, but... What is called? Instruction. But they take everything, "It is fabulous."

Dr. Patel: From the lives of the so many saints, and...

Prabhupāda: Vidvāṁś cakre satvata saṁhitām (SB 1.7.6). If you want to be learned, then you have to read Bhāgavatam. Vidvāṁś cakre satvata. Vidvāṁ means Vyāsadeva. He compiled Bhāgavatam for the education of these rascals. Na te vidhuḥ svārtha-gatim. The same thing. They do not know what is their self-interest. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi visnu. And another place, anartha. This is anartha. Without knowing the real self-interest, they are engaged in so many so-called duties. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān: "Give up all these duties," but they will not do. Therefore Vyāsadeva says, anārthopasamaṁ. These unnecessary engagements, they cannot be given up, anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6) To teach them bhakti yoga... And, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhoksaje lokasyājānato. These rascals, they do not know it. Lokasya ajānata. Ajānato lokasya. They do not know how to get free from this unwanted situation. But to get them free, vidyā... Vyāsadeva is vidvān, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasyājānato. Ajanato lokasya, they do not know, huh? The same thing, a dog, what does he know what is the interest of life? Dvipada-paśu. Therefore Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu has advised that because all these rascals are filled up all over the world, "Each one of you become a guru." Yes. So many gurus required. Āmāra ajñāya guru haya tāra ei deśa, wherever you are living, you just try to deliver your family, your neighborhood, your friends. Deliver them. Tāra. Tāra means deliver. "How can I do it? I am not a guru; I am a common..." "No. You have to become a guru." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa' (CC Madhya 7.128): simply repeat the instruction given by Kṛṣṇa. Then you will become guru.

Dr. Patel: But for the saṁsārīs, sir...

Prabhupāda: Saṁsārīs..., Gītā is for the saṁsārīs. When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), this is for saṁsārī. Saintly person doesn't require anna. It is meant for the saṁsārī. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Catur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). This division of society is meant for the saṁsārī, to control division of labor. Everything is for saṁsārī. It is not meant for the paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā is Bhāgavata. This is A-B-C-D. These people, they do not understand even the A-B-C-D. This is the difficulty. They cannot learn even the A-B-C-D of spiritual knowledge.

Dr. Patel:

śreyo hi jñānam abhyāsāj
jñānād dhyānam viśiṣyate
dhyānāt karma-phala-tyagās
tyāgāc chāntir anantaram
(BG 12.12)

Whether tyāga is meant for the saṁsārīs?

Prabhupāda: Tyāgāt means one must be disgusted with this material way of life. That is tyāga. But they are being educated to be more attached to this material world.

Dr. Patel: This modern education.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: How to make a successful life, like Mr...

Prabhupāda: Vairāgya-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). That is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga also. Vidvān, Vyāsadeva, also says, anārthopasanaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam. To get rid of this entanglement, unnecessary things, the only means is bhakti-yoga.

Dr. Patel: Modern advancement of science is actually here, entangle the man more and more (indistinct). But by raising, creating more bonds for comfort, comfortable life...

Prabhupāda: What comfort?

Dr. Patel: Comfortable life means...

Prabhupāda: That is another illusion.

Dr. Patel: Comfortable life means comfort of the body.

Prabhupāda: To get a comfortable life, one has to work so hard. Where is comfort?

Dr. Patel: (laughs) Yes. That is his foolishness. In Europe they actually run in the morning to go to their work. They run like mad dogs.

Prabhupāda: But we are also...

Dr. Patel: They may start running now. They are following them.

Prabhupāda: No...

Dr. Patel: And I remember that I used to laugh, the way they were running to the work, sir.

Prabhupāda: No. That is here also. Everywhere. Therefore Bhāgavata says, "No, no, no. This is not life." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājām nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān (SB 5.5.1). So much labor for getting your bread. That is immediately stopped.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is the misfortune. And how it started, this ball? Who made the ball rolling?

Prabhupāda: He, he makes the ball.

Dr. Patel: This is modern education.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone is the architect of his own fortune.

Dr. Patel: No, no. I talk of the samāṣṭi sir. In the society...

Prabhupāda: Samāṣṭi, sama and aṣṭi together makes samaṣṭi. If you become devotee, I become devotee, everyone becomes..., then samaṣṭi is devotee. And if you are nondevotee, I'm a nondevotee, then combination of nondevotees. That's all. We have to therefore change this group, where we shall live. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavānti hṛt-karṇa... (SB 3.25.25). If you live with the devotees, then these topics of transcendental subject matter becomes palatable. Otherwise it is nonpalatable. Therefore they do not like to come to the temple to hear our lecture. Nonpalatable.

Dr. Patel: You fire them. (raucous laugh)

Prabhupāda: No. How can I say anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is... Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamā māyayāpahṛta-jñānā (BG 7.15). So we have got this test: if anyone has no interest in Kṛṣṇa, he must be with these groups, that's all—duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yare dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa' (CC Madhya 7.128). So how can I violate?

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: Both ways. I cannot violate. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that you simply speak what Kṛṣṇa has said, and Kṛṣṇa says anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal, he is the most sinful, he is the lowest of mankind. So why shall I not say? It is not firing; it is telling the truth. (laughs with Dr. Patel) But I am not loser. I am..., I don't make any compromise. All these my students ask, I never made any compromise. But still they understand, and they are with me.

Dr. Patel: But we are also with you.

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, those who are (indistinct). In Los Angeles, so many scientists used to come, so after talking with them, I used to say, "You are demon, you are rascal," and they tolerated. (laughter) And they remained for two hours talking and then taking prasādam. They were happy that I called them demons and rascals.

Dr. Patel: Well, you have to call them fools also. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Well, when I say "rascal" it includes everything. (laughs) In Bengal it is said, "When I curse somebody, 'You die!' then all everything is included, finished. You die." (Hindi with Indians) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi)

bhārata bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra
janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra
(CC Adi 9.41)

This is Indian birth: to understand the whole Vedic philosophy and to give this knowledge everyone. That is para-upakāra.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) Then you become mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: All the work should be done for God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our duty. Just like a servant and master. What is the duty of a servant? Simply you wait for the order of the master, and execute it. That's all. Then he's perfect servant. He doesn't require any qualification. Simply if he's ready, the master will order—"I will do." That's all. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityaja mām ekam, "Be ready always, what I say, direct." And Rūpa Goswami says, ānukūlyena-kṛṣṇānu-śilanam (CC Madhya 19.167). Ānukūlyena, favorably. Always wait, as Kṛṣṇa becomes satisfied, for the order. Then you are perfect. Ānukūlyena-kṛṣṇānuśilanam bhaktir uttamam. That is first-class bhakti. It doesn't require any education. Just like Hanumānjī. He was not born in a human society even, but he was always ready to execute the order of Rāmacandra. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: Human society (indistinct) support the devotees.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Support the right man who is after Bhagavān, not to the rascals. That is the problem. Dātavyam iti yad dānam tad sāttvikam (BG 17.20). Here is the person. Here, one has dedicated his whole life for Bhagavān, give everything to him. That is dānam. Dānam sāttvikaṁ rājasi tamasi. One is a rascal, then what is the use of giving him dāna?

Dr. Patel: Even you do not give dāna, he will take away by thievery.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that is a misuse. Misuse.

Dr. Patel: Dānam, dānam... (quotes Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: If you make tāmasika dāna, then you become implicated with his sinful activities. Suppose you want to kill somebody, and you're asking, "Can you give me a nice knife?" "What you will do?" "I shall kill that man." "All right, take it, dānam. I am giving you in charity." So he will be implicated. In the court, if it is known that that man supplied the knife, "Arrest him. Bring him immediately."

Dr. Patel: So what do you think about this America has supplied a lot of grain free of charge to this country, and that grain is fed to the whole of this poor population, and they are not God believers?

Prabhupāda: No, no. The Americans, they give to the government, and they are free. They have given to the government.

Dr. Patel: Sāttvika dāna.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The government, Indian government, is in necessity. In necessity, "All right, give it to the government." Their duty is finished. But if the government is rascal, that is their responsibility.

Dr. Patel: But suppose, I mean, you had given me a knife to mend the pencil, and I stab somebody with it. So, like that.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Dr. Patel: You have done a dāna to me, giving a knife to mend my pencil, or some useful work, and I stab somebody with the pen..., that penknife, so...

Prabhupāda: That is your responsibility.

Dr. Patel: No, but then the dāna that you did was not tāmasika. Still, it has ended into tāmasika action.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Just like the money. Money is not material. You can spend it for constructing temple of Kṛṣṇa. Then it is not material; it is spiritual. Everything originally... Nothing is material. But when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Otherwise, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ tena tyaktena bhuñjithā (ISO 1). If everything is belonging to Kṛṣṇa, how it can be material? He is spirit, so everything belongs to Him, so how it can be material? Material means when Kṛṣṇa's things are not used for Kṛṣṇa, for oneself, that is material.

Dr. Patel: And that is sin also. Anything which is not used for God is sin.

Prabhupāda: Material anything you do, yajñārthāt karmano'nyatra loko yam karma (BG 3.9)... Anything you do, if it is not meant for Kṛṣṇa, then you are criminal, immediately.

Dr. Patel: Sinful activity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. To spiritualize everything, Kṛṣṇa says therefore, yat karoṣi yaj juhosi yat tapasyasi dadāsi tat kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). Then it is spiritual, immediately. Karmāny evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana (BG 2.47).

Dr. Patel: Tad-arthaṁ kārma kaunteya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is spiritual. Yajñārthāt, everything is there. Unless you do it for Kṛṣṇa, everything is material and sinful.

Dr. Patel: That's a fact. If you are doing work tad-arthaṁ karma, then you become mukta, because there is no, I mean, taking with you anything. Mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like government servant, soldiers, they are killing so many; they are not responsible, because he's doing for the government. Police beats you, but he cannot bring any charge against the police. But another man, if he little slaps, you can bring charge, immediately. That is tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya. The police and military department, they are doing for the government. (break)

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) ...eḥ? Very good discussion we had this morning. And we thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) is sufficient. If you get one man who follows you, he is more than thousands fools follow you.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you attend daily, I can speak daily.

Dr. Patel: I do come daily, don't I? (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Then I'll speak. Just like Śukadeva Goswāmi, he spoke Bhāgavatam, and there was only candidate Parīkṣit Mahārāja. But he said continuously for seven days.

Dr. Patel: Those ṛṣis came to hear.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because he knew that "Here is a gentleman, he'll understand."

Dr. Patel: But I am not that Parīkṣit... I am a fool.

Prabhupāda: No, the standard is like that.

Dr. Patel: I am a fool, sir. As you have been calling me very often. It is the sat-saṅga which really caused the man.

Prabhupāda:

’sādhu-saṅga’, "sādhu-saṅga"—sarva-śāstre kaya
lava-mātra sādhu-saṅga sarva-siddhi haya
(CC Madhya 22.54)

This is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Dr. Patel: And when you read Bhāgavata you also get with the sat-saṅga, because the, all the histories of so many saints...

Prabhupāda: Yes, Cānakya Paṇḍita also advised: kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama(?). This is..., he was a politician, and still he said, kalau durajana saṁsargaṁ bhaja sādhu-samārgama, and smara nityam anityatām kuru puṇyam aho rātraṁ. This is his advice, that give up this bad association of atheist-class man. Sadhu means devotee. Durajana means nondevotee. So kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that. When He was asked by one gṛhastha bhakta, "What is the duty of a Vaiṣṇava?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately said, asat-saṅga-tyāgī ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra (CC Madhya 22.87). A Vaiṣṇava means he must give up the association of nondevotees. Then the question will be, "Who is nondevotee?" Asat-strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa bhakta... One who is too much attached to material enjoyment. Strī-saṅgī is the basic point, and one who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is asat. Asat-saṅga-tyāgī..., in two lines. And the moralist, Cānakya Paṇḍita, he also said, kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama. You give up something, you must take something. Otherwise you will not be able to stay.

Dr. Patel: Nothing can act independently.

Prabhupāda: Yes, simply negative is useless. These jñānīs, they simply teach negative—brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But they do not take to Brahman; they simply take the one side, jagan mithyā. They take the... Brahma satyam, they take to Brahman...

Dr. Patel: Then the second half they are not taking.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know how to remain in Brahman. No, they do not know; therefore we say rascals. You realize that you are Brahman; now your next business to stay in Brahman. That they do not know.

Dr. Patel: Behave as Brahman. They don't behave.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Either behave or stay, I think the same thing. Unless you become fire, you cannot stay in fire.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: So these people, they realize arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). By severe austerity and penances they rise to the Brahman platform, but from there they fall down. Why? Anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ. Because Brahman platform means to be engaged in devotional service. Brahma bhūyāya kalpate. Mām ca vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena (BG 14.26). If you want to stay on the Brahman platform, then you must render service to Kṛṣṇa. And if you simply realize that "I am Brahman," then you'll be misguided by māyā: "Oh, you are the Supreme Lord. You are Bhagavān."

Dr. Patel: That nirgranthā apy...

Prabhupāda: "Why... What is the use of worshiping another Bhagavān? You are Bhagavān." Māyā says in a different way. Māyā says that you are a rascal, but think that you are Bhagavān.

Dr. Patel: This ātmarāma śloka should be taught.

Prabhupāda: So the rascals, under the dictation of māyā, they are thinking, "I am God," that's all. They have no intelligence even, that "How I can be God?"

Dr. Patel: Sir, even Śaṅkarācārya has taught the guru-bhakti(?). But these rascals who are following Śaṅkarācārya, they are not following correctly. He was doing bhakti, bhaja govindaṁ he has...

Prabhupāda: Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govinda... He has asked, mūḍha-mate. One who is rascal, he does not worship Govinda. Indirectly he says, "You rascal," nahi nahi rakṣati duḥkṛn karaṇe, sannihite koro marame, "you have learned so much grammar, grammatical jugglery to interpret the śāstra in this way, this way, that way. These things will not help you at the time of your death. You rascal, bhaja govindaṁ." Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate. "You rascal!" He says mūḍha. (everyone laughing)

Dr. Patel: I think the modern philosophers are misinterpreting the Śaṅkarācārya...

Prabhupāda: Because they are mūḍhas. They want to remain mūḍhas. That is their fault.

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). They are not sama.

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, because he had to deliver people from this nāstika philosophy, bauddha, so for the time being, he made some compromise. The Buddha says there is no God, and he said, "Yes, there is no God. You are God." So if he realizes himself brahma-bhūtaḥ, then he'll be engaged in devotional service. That was his purpose.

Dr. Patel: Very wrong interpretation, Śaṅkarācārya.

Prabhupāda: Unless he says that, that "Yes, it is not the fact that there is no God. There is God, but that God you are."

Dr. Patel: That is the final argument is that if there is no God, who said there is no God? And that is God. That is what he said.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) So you know better than me.

Dr. Patel: No, no. I did not know this. I read it...

Prabhupāda: But I know what is his policy. His policy was to make this godless men to think of God, that "I am God." That is... Let him be accustomed with the word "God," then gradually he will understand God. This is called ahaṅgrahopāsana. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi, therefore I shall worship myself. Ahaṅgrahopāsana Nika-tena, jagat-tena, ekatvena. It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata, ekatvena, that "I am Brahma. So I shall worship myself."

Dr. Patel: No, but he had also mentioned about bhuma puruṣa, that there is really a...

Prabhupāda: No, there is, but this is one of the beginning stage, ekatvena: "I am one," monism. Ekatvena pṛthaktvena bauddha viśvato-mukham (BG 9.15).

Dr. Patel: That passage comprises all three types of philosophy. Ekatvena pṛthaktvena bauddha viśvato-mukham, that comprises all the three main philosophies of India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pantheism, monism and dualism.

Dr. Patel: And dualism. And qualifies, I mean, viśvato. Somebody has very well commented on that particular śloka, giving all the views of Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Jīvācārya, and modern interpreters. Somewhere I read, I don't know where, on that particular śloka. After all these things, ācārya..., ācārya para (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Ācāryopāsanam.

Dr. Patel: I mean first you can really go... Without ācārya, if a man...

Prabhupāda: Ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 6.14.2). One who has accepted ācārya, he knows. He knows. Now our these European and American boys are preaching in South India. Big, big ācāryas, they have received them, because they know that these boys know—latest letter. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)