680803 - Lecture SB 01.02.06 - Montreal

Lectures by Date, 1968

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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680803SB-MONTREAL - August 03, 1968 - 93:24 Minutes

Prabhupāda: (kīrtana) (prema-dvani prayers) Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances)

om ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

dhyeyaṁ sadā paribhava-ghnam abhīṣṭa-dohaṁ

tīrthāspadaṁ śiva-viriṇci-nutaṁ śaraṇyam

bhṛtyārti-haṁ praṇata-pāla bhavābdhi-potaṁ

vande mahā-puruṣa te caraṇāravindam

(SB 11.5.33)

tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīṁ

dharmiṣṭha ārya-vacasā yad agād araṇyam

māyā-mṛgaṁ dayitayepsitam anvadhāvad

vande mahā-puruṣa te caraṇāravindam

(SB 11.5.34)

he kṛṣṇa karuṇā-sindho dīna-bandho jagat-pate

gopeśa gopikā-kānta rādhā-kānta namo 'stu te

tapta-kāñcana-gaurāṅgi rādhe vṛndāvaneśvari

vṛṣabhānu-sute devi praṇamāmi hari-priye

I am very glad that these girls, with great difficulty, you come to this class. It is very nice. Thank you.

This is ahaituky apratihatā. The devotional service cannot be checked by any material impediment. It is not conditional that, "Because I am in this condition, I cannot execute devotional service." No. Anyone, in any position, in any circumstances, he can become the greatest devotee of the Lord—if he desires.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā suprasīdati

(SB 1.2.6)

The real aim of life is how to get satisfaction, full, complete satisfaction. And that satisfaction, complete satisfaction, can be achieved only by prosecution of devotional service. There is no other method. If you want to be happy, free from all cares and anxieties, then you have to engage yourself in devotional service of the Lord. That will make you free from all material anxieties and all material miseries.

We are all seeking after that position, how to become completely happy. Our whole struggle for existence . . . anyone, in any place, any country, they are all struggling for existence, either human being or animal or birds or beasts, how to become happy. This happiness of the mind, ātmā, is only possible when we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only remedy. There is no other alternative. So Lord Kṛṣṇa said that:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

(BG 4.7)

"My dear Arjuna, whenever there is discrepancies in the matter of execution of real purpose of life . . ." That is called dharma. Dharma, this word, either you take it "religion" or "duty" or "nature," as you like, but, as explained before, dharma means your actual, constitutional position. It is nothing artificial. The example again I am repeating: just like fire is hot, warm; fire has light. You cannot separate light from fire or heat from fire. Therefore heat and light is dharma. That is its real religion.

So our dharma, living entity, that is defined very nicely by Lord Caitanya. Our dharma, or religion, is to obey the orders of the Supreme Lord, to become . . . to engage ourself in the loving, transcendental service of the Lord. Whenever this principle is crippled or checked by our material activities . . . just like at the present age they have no idea what is God. They are asking, "What is God?" and they are proud of their education. Just see. This is the godless . . . result of godless civilization. This is discrepancy of dharma.

So at this age, at this stage, when people have forgotten God, when they are speaking that, "God is dead," now this Bhagavad-gītā or this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has descended, just like Kṛṣṇa says:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

(BG 4.7)

"At that time, I appear." So this is . . . Kṛṣṇa has appeared in His holy name, Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between this holy name Kṛṣṇa and the person Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa is absolute. There is no difference between His name, between His form, between His quality, between His pastimes, between His abode, between His entourage. There is no such difference. Materially there is difference. I am Indian, I am person, and my place, India, is different. You are American. You . . . this is all designation of this body.

So Kṛṣṇa says that yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Now, this sṛjāmi, this word, is used in Sanskrit, "something manufactured." Something manufactured. Just like I make this spectacle case. Or you make. This is called sṛjāmi. But actually we understand like that, but here sṛjāmi, this word, as explained by Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, a learned scholar, who said that sṛjāmi means prakaṭā, "I appear."

Now, if you say this word means "manufactured" . . . the Māyāvādī philosopher, they take advantage of this word, and they say that, "Kṛṣṇa or anyone," I mean to say: "incarnation of God, that is created." That means they understand that as so many material things are created . . . anything which we find here in this room, that is created. This Dictaphone, this microphone or anything, that is created. But here, if you say this word in that sense that, "Kṛṣṇa is created. Anything created, that is material. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is also material," then you will be in misunderstanding.

Here . . . just like if you say that "I create," that means you exist before creation. Is it not? If I say: "I have created this glass case, spectacle case," that means before creation of this case, I was existing. You cannot deny it. So how this is possible, that if this case says that "I have created this case"? No, that is not . . . one cannot say, "I have created myself." It is impossible.

Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa says that, "I . . ." tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham . . . this ātmānam means body, ātmānam means the mind, or ātmānam means the soul. But He is the Supreme Soul, so how He creates His soul? And He is non-different, absolute. Therefore the interpretation given by Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, that "I create" means "I appear," "I create My appearance." Just like sun creates its appearance. The sun is there already, but when sun appears, it means that you can say like that, that "Sun creates its appearance." And why does He create or appear? That is explained in the next verse:

paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ

vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām

dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya

sambhavāmi yuge yuge

(BG 4.8)

"In every millennium, every yuga . . ." There are different periods, just like in the whole year there are different periods in your country called summer, winter, fall, spring. They are coming by rotation. Similarly, there is rotation of time, which is divided into four millenniums called Satya-yuga, Tretā-yuga, Dvāpara-yuga and Kali-yuga.

So Kṛṣṇa says that dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya sambhavāmi yuge yuge. Now, one may inquire that, "Kṛṣṇa appeared in the Tretā-yuga. And when He is going to appear in the Kali-yuga?" That is also mentioned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that in the Kali-yuga there are three different incarnations mentioned in the Bhāgavatam or any other authentic Vedic literature. One incarnation is Lord Buddha, and another incarnation is Lord Caitanya, and another incarnation, in the last stage of this age, is Kalki, so far we get from the authority of Bhāgavatam.

So we have to accept according to the authentic scripture who is incarnation. We cannot accept anyone who claims that, "I am also incarnation." No. In the śāstras there are symptoms foretold of the incarnation. Just like about Lord Buddha there is mention, "In such and such place, in such and such form, in such and such activity, Lord Buddha will appear." Similarly, about Lord Caitanya is there. Similarly, there is a description about Kalki.

So far Lord Buddha is concerned, in the Bhāgavatam the name of the mother of Lord Buddha is mentioned there. And the activities is also mentioned, what are his activities. The activities are not very pleasant. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24):

"The Lord will appear as Buddha in order to sammohāya, bewilder, the atheist class of men." Atheist class of . . . his activities were to cover the atheist class of men, those who do not believe in God. Yes. Lord Buddha said, "Yes, there is no God. There is no God. There is void only. But you believe me, what I say." Just see. He is incarnation of God, and the people amongst whom he is preaching, to them he is saying, "There is no God," but he is God. Is it not a process of cheating? Yes.

So this process of cheating is not exactly cheating; it is for the welfare of the so-called atheistic persons. Just like sometimes father cheats the son. The son is insisting to get one thousand-dollar note, and the father asking, "My dear son, please deliver it." "No, I shall not." So father gives him one lozenges: "My dear son, will you like to take this lozenges?" "Yes, give me." "But you must have to give me that paper." "All right, take it."

So this kind . . .

(break) . . . is not actually cheating, but father knows that, "This boy will destroy this one thousand dollar, so it is necessary to give him that two-cent-worth lozenges and take out that one hundred or thousand-dollar-worth paper." Similarly, when people become too much atheistic, so, in order to bring them back to the understanding of God, there is sometimes necessity like this.

Now, those who follow the Buddha philosophy, they say that "There is no soul. There is no God." But there are thousands and thousands of temples of Lord Buddha, and they worship. Especially in the countries like Japan and China and Burma there are thousands of temples, and they exactly worship in the same way as we are worshiping Jagannātha. The lamp is given, the candle is burned, they offer very respectfully, and there are brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs. The whole principle is there. But officially, there is no question of God. So this is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Similarly, Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya is also mentioned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ

sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam

yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair

yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ

(SB 11.5.32)

Now, Kṛṣṇa will appear in the Kali-yuga. His symptoms are this. Just like Lord Buddha's symptoms were described, similarly, Lord Caitanya's symptoms are also described. What is that? That kṛṣṇa-varṇam: "He belongs to the category of Kṛṣṇa Himself," or, in other way, "He is always chanting 'Kṛṣṇa.' " Kṛṣṇaṁ varṇayati, kṛṣṇa-varṇam. Kṛṣṇa . . . His business is simply to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-varṇam. And tviṣā akṛṣṇam: "By His . . . but His complexion is not kṛṣṇa, black."

Lord Caitanya appeared very fair complexion, very nice, golden color. You have got pictures of Lord Caitanya, very beautiful. He was very beautiful figure. Kṛṣṇa-varṇam tviṣā . . . tviṣā means "by complexion." Akṛṣṇa. Therefore His another name is Gaurasundara. Gaurasundara means very fair complexion. Sundara means beautiful, and gaura means fair. The another name is Gaurasundara, or Gaurāṅga, "whose body is very fair."

So kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam (SB 11.5.32): "He is always accompanied by some associates," especially Lord Nityānanda, Lord Advaita, Śrīvāsa, Haridāsa, like that. You have seen the pictures. He is chanting and dancing with the associates and others. When Lord Caitanya was present, whenever He would go, wherever He would go and . . . His attitude was dancing: "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa . . ." And He was so beautiful and attractive that people would follow. Thousands and thousands people will follow, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even Lord . . . Nawab Hussain Shah.

And when He started this movement in Bengal He was a boy of twenty years old. So, so many people were following. So Nawab Hussain Shah inquired his minister, "Who is this person, that He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and so many people are following Him?" So the minister was Hindu. He thought that "He is Muhammadan king, so he may not like this movement."

Therefore he wanted to hide it, "My Lord, you have misinformed. He is not very important man. Some, I mean to say, people are crazy fellow. They are following. Not . . . a few only, not many." The Nawab replied: "No, I know it certainly, but you don't try to hide the fact. He must be a great personality. Otherwise why so many people are following Him?" That was his remark.

Similarly, Lord Caitanya, wherever He went, that was . . . sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam: "always followed by many associates." These are the symptoms. And how to worship that Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, in this age? Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32): "This form of the Personality of Godhead is worshiped by the intelligent class of men," su-medhasaḥ. Su means very good, and medhasaḥ means brain, brain substance. One who has got very good brain substance, they will understand this saṅkīrtana movement nicely. Just like in our India, especially in Bengal, sometimes they say a dull-brained man, "Oh, you have got cow dung within your brain. You have no brain substance." Actually a man becomes intelligent by the greater amount of brain substance. It is a psychological fact. It is called celebrum . . . doctor knows. What is called?

Doctor: Cerebrum. Cerebrum cortex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So psychology . . . I was student of psychology in my college life. Dr. Urquhart said, I remember still, that the brain substance of man has been found up to 64 ounce, while brain substance of woman has been found, highest, 34 ounce. Therefore woman class (laughs) is not so intelligent as man. There is no question of competition. It is actual, scientific fact.

Anyway, the word su-medhasaḥ . . . su-medhasaḥ means one who has got good brain substance. But one thing I must explain here. So far spiritual life is concerned, it does not depend on the material brain substance. It is different thing. It is spiritual platform. It has nothing to do with this bodily construction. You must remember.

We don't make any distinction that a man can be better Kṛṣṇa consciousness than woman. No. A woman can be better Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they are very simple. They can accept any religious system. Generally the women, they accept it, because they are very simple. They have no crooked mind. Sometimes they are exploited, therefore.

So in the spiritual platform there is no such distinction, although in the material . . . just like the bodily construction of man is different from woman, similarly, the brain substance may be also different, but that does not disqualify any woman for spiritual advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is clearly defined in the Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo śūdrā tathā vaiśyās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

(BG 9.32)

"It doesn't matter whether one is woman or a mercantile class of man or a śūdra. It doesn't matter." Because these classes are understood less intelligent. But Kṛṣṇa is opening the path for everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. If one accepts Kṛṣṇa very seriously, vyapāśritya . . . vi-pūrvaka . . . vi means . . . vi means "specifically," vi, viśeṣaṇam, viśeṣaṇam, "particularly."

Āśritya, if he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa specifically, then either he may be woman or he may be śūdra, or laborer class, or may be mercantile class—it doesn't matter—he or she can go to the highest perfection. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ bhaktyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (BG 9.33). Puṇya. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyāḥ. And what to speak of the intelligent class? Even this class also elevated to the highest position.

So there is no such question. But here the word used, su-medhasaḥ, in the particular sense that for worship of God there are different methods, different religious system, different methods, different churches, different mosque, different temple. Even accepting that this is Hindu philosophy, so Hindus, they have got many different processes. I think the Hindus have got so many different processes that it can outnumber all the different processes of the world. They have got so many processes.

So su-medhasaḥ means for executing religious life, for achieving the highest perfection of life, one must be very intelligent. A fool cannot achieve the highest perfection of life. Just like a fool cannot be very prosperous even in this material world, similarly, a fool also cannot make any progress in the spiritual world. So su-medhasaḥ means one should be little intelligent. What is that intelligence? If I have got the easiest path to achieve the highest perfection of life, why shall I take a path which is not very sure? This intelligence required.

Now, Lord Caitanya, as He is described, if you accept . . . we are explaining that paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, sambhavāmi yuge yuge (BG 4.8). So Lord appears in this age also. And according to śāstra, authentic scripture, He has appeared as Lord Caitanya. So if we accept this principle on the method of authentic scripture, that is our intelligence. That is our intelligence. Not that you have to become a great psychologist or a great scientist or mathematician. No. You have to take the orders of the authority.

Just like you are driving car. It is written there, "Keep to the right." It does not require a very nice intelligence. You keep your car to the right, you are all right. But if you go to the left, you are fool number one. Why? It is di . . . written there, "Keep to the right." Why you go to the left? That means you are fool number one. So this much intelligence we must have that, "Here is police direction, 'Keep to the right.' Why shall I go to the left?" This much intelligence can be had by any common man.

So similarly, if the śāstra says that yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32), that "Those who are intelligent, they will perform worship of the Lord by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa," this yajña . . . yajña means anything sacrificed for the satisfaction of Viṣṇu. That is called yajña. Yajña means to satisfy the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. That is yajña. Now, in this age the Supreme Lord is satisfied simply by saṅkīrtana, or congregational chanting: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. This is mentioned in the śāstra.

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā

(CC Adi 17.21)

In this age of disagreement there is no possibility of executing different process of self-realization. No. They say that there are as many paths as one can manufacture. It may be true. But in this age, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā, "There is no other alternative, no other alternative, no other alternative in this age."

Therefore an intelligent man will take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is the test of one's intelligence. And it is very easy. And by simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa you gradually develop your Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the highest platform. So one who has accepted the simple method recommended for this age, he is called the intelligent. That is required. That much intelligence we must have.

So it is quarter past eight. I will stop here. Next meeting we shall explain further.

Thank you very much. If there is any question, you can put.

(break) . . . you say like that, "Only persons who are joining this movement, they are intelligent, and others are not intelligent?" that is our challenge. Now you can defend on behalf of those who do not accept this proposal. This is my challenge. This is a fact.

And as I . . . now you can talk. It is very intelligent question also. And Janārdana will reply.

Doctor: Nothing like this taken thrice (indistinct), it might happen . . . (indistinct) . . . that experience . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, if . . . our proposal is the saṅkīrtanaiḥ, er, chanting, chanting of the holy name.

So if somebody takes this principle, that "Well, we have got our holy name of God. We shall chant that holy name of God," so we have no objection. So that is not our objection. Our objection . . . our submission is that "You chant the holy name." Just like Lord Caitanya said, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21).

The śāstra says. So it does not mean harer nāma is only Kṛṣṇa. If you have got any other name of Hari, the Supreme Personality of . . . but that name must be actually the name of the Supreme Personality of God, as it is recognized by scriptures.

You may have your own scripture, but if you have got a name sanctioned by the scripture that, "This is the name of God," just like in Jewish scripture they say Jehovah . . . similarly, in Christian scripture, if you have got name . . . just like Buddhists, they have got God, or the Supreme—they accept Lord Buddha.

Similarly, if you have got any other name of the Supreme Lord, you can chant. We are not insisting that you chant Kṛṣṇa. But if you have no specific name of God found in your authentic scripture, then what is the harm if you chant "Kṛṣṇa"? This is not very bad proposal. Any intelligent man . . . if you have, you chant.

Our Lord Caitanya says that nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktiḥ, bahudhā nija-sarva . . . tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ . . . (CC Antya 20.16). There are many names. bahudhā As there are many potencies, there are many names also. Just like take for Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is not understood simply by uttering this word "Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa is understood if you call "Govinda." That is also Kṛṣṇa. If you call "Mādhava," He is also Kṛṣṇa. If you call "Vaṁśī-vadana," He's also Kṛṣṇa. So the aim should be that it is God's name, or the Supreme Lord's name. If the name is different in vibration or form, it does not matter.

(aside) Yes, you can come in. Why you are standing there?

Yes?

Guest: Is it simply the nature of the name Kṛṣṇa that this particular name is the most powerful?

Prabhupāda: Yes. God . . . God's name is according to His action, God's name. Just like Kṛṣṇa. This Kṛṣṇa name is given . . . that is explained also:

kṛṣir bhū-vācakaḥ śabdo

ṇaś ca nirvṛti-vācakaḥ

tayor aikyaṁ iti kṛṣṇa

paraṁ brahma ity abhidhīyate

(Mahābhārata, Udyoga-parva 71.4)

Kṛṣṇa means . . . Kṛṣ means to become, to appear. Bhū-vācakaḥ. Or attraction. We have got attraction for material enjoying, and ṇaś ca nirvṛti-vācakaḥ. Ṇa means ānanda. And another meaning is negation. So "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who, by His attractive features, by attraction of His bodily beauty, by attraction of His opulence, by attraction of His pastimes, so many things . . ." Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive. And one who is all-attractive, He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the meaning of "Kṛṣṇa."

Similarly, "Govinda." That also has meaning. Go means cow, go means senses and go means land. So in these three features Kṛṣṇa can be applied. He gives pleasure to the senses; therefore He's Govinda. He's very kind to the cows, therefore He's Govinda. He is the proprietor of all land; therefore He's Govinda. So in this way "Govinda" means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, "Kṛṣṇa" means the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Similarly, if you have got any word which means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, you can chant.

Devotee (1): Just like you mentioned (indistinct) that we chant the name of Rāma three times.

Prabhupāda: The Rāma, that is also God's name.

ramante yogino 'nante

satyānande cid-ātmani

iti rāma-padenāsau

paraṁ brahmābhidhīyate

(CC Madhya 9.29)

Rāma means enjoy. We want enjoyment, but we do not know how we can have permanent enjoyment. When you have got permanent enjoyment by reciprocation of transaction with the Supreme, then that particular acceptor of our reciprocation is called Rāma. That means by . . . we enjoy the loving exchange between God and ourself.

That position is called rāma. But if you have no idea what is God, how we can exchange our feelings, then there is no question of rāma. Rāma means when we are in position of exchanging our loving attachment to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then He's known as Rāma. The capacity in which He accepts our service, loving service, is called Rāma, ramante.

Devotee (2): You say that if we chant Rāma three times, it's equal to once chanting Kṛṣṇa. Now I don't understand . . .

Prabhupāda: Why do you not understand? If I say that, "If you give me three dollars, I shall give you this," then what is the difficulty to understand? Eh?

Devotee (2): Yes. Is it just . . . is it just in the potency of the name? Is that . . . (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: No. As there are different things of different value, similarly, in each name there are potencies of the Lord. But there is degrees of potencies. Just like rāma-līlā and kṛṣṇa-līlā, pastime. Both of them are the same thing, God. But in the rāma-līlā you find less potential exhibition of the Lord, but in kṛṣṇa-līlā you find full potential manifestation of Lord. So degrees of potencies. Although it does not mean the Rāma is less potent. No. Rāma is also the same potency. But under circumstances He exhibits a partial potencies, not full potencies. But kṛṣṇa-līlā, you will find full potency.

Just like Rāma, Lord Rāmacandra. He married only one wife, Sītā. But Kṛṣṇa married 16,108. Now, if you question why Rāma is so moralist, or whatever you like—He is sticking to one wife—and Kṛṣṇa is marrying sixteen thousand, that means we . . . we say that God is omnipotent. That is a . . . (indistinct) . . . qualification of God. So He is showing His omnipotency. That means why sixteen thousand? If He marries sixteen millions, sixteen billions, still, He is potent, full-fledged potency.

So we cannot imagine even that how a person can marry sixteen thousand wives. This is inconceivable potency, to give an example of His inconceivable potency. And Rāma presented Himself as an ideal king. He did not manifest Himself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but from symptoms of authentic literature we understand that He is God. But Kṛṣṇa personally said that, "I am the Supreme Personality of God." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat asti kiñcid dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no superior truth beyond Me." Rāmacandra never said that, that . . . He never said that, "I am God." But those who are intelligent, they understood that He is God.

Pradyumna: I'd like to ask you about something, er, about the eternally conditioned souls and eternally liberated souls. I'd like to know what's the meaning of "eternal" in both those statements.

Prabhupāda: Eternal means those who have not come in contact with this material nature. There are living entities, I mean to say, many, many more times than the living entities who are within this material world. They are in the spiritual world. Just like the number of population outside the prison house is very great, and the number of population within the prison house is very small, this material world is supposed to be the prison house. Those who are condemned, those who want to try to lord it over, they are imprisoned within the walls of material universes. So their number is very small.

That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42): "It is only a portion of My creation, little portion." This unlimited number of universes and their unlimited number of planets, and in each planet, unlimited number of living entities, all taken together is only a fractional demonstration, manifestation of the potency of the Lord. The major manifestation is in the spiritual world. So they are all liberated, nitya-mukta.

All right. Have kīrtana. Chant.

(kīrtana) (prema-dhvani) Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances)

Why we do not see Mr. Mukherjee? Akhila Kṛṣṇa. (break) (end)