Go to Vaniquotes | Go to Vanipedia | Go to Vanimedia

Vanisource - the complete essence of Vedic knowledge

770108 - Conversation B - Bombay

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770108R2-BOMBAY - January 08, 1977 - 153:43 Minutes

Prabhupāda: There is chance of being accepted all over the world. They are . . . there is now opposition, and some of the politicians, they're of opinion that "This culture, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, is spreading like epidemic, and if we do not check, in ten years' time they'll take the government."

Indian man (1): Of America.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) That there is possibility, because these young men, they are taking. So everywhere revolution takes place by young men. So if it is actually spreading like epidemic, and young men, they are taking part, so within ten years it is not impossible.

Indian man (1): It's a very good idea, then, to follow it. I'm quite serious.

Prabhupāda: And they are democratic. It can pull down even a president like Nixon. So if they like, if the majority becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, they can make Kṛṣṇa conscious government. There is no, I mean to say, wonder in it. So anyway, because these youngsters in the Western countries, both in Europe and America, are taking . . . and the recent telegram we have received . . . just see how many books we have sold. (aside) Make it little less.

Indian man (2): (reading telegram) "Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, please accept our humble obeisance. Here are the saṅkīrtana marathon results for all of ISKCON worldwide for the week of December 17th to 24th."

Prabhupāda: One week's report.

Indian man (2): Yes. And that, too, before Christmas. "One lakh 17,644 big books, 90,737 medium books, 63,332 small books, 4 lakh 37,420 BTG . . ."

Indian man (1): Back to Godhead magazine.

Girirāja: That's our magazine.

Indian man (2): Right. "And 7 lakh 9,686 t-o-t-a . . ." Total.

Girirāja: Total.

Indian man (2): Total. This has come from . . .

Indian man (1): Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Our headquarters.

Trivikrama: One week.

Indian man (2): New York. This is from New York.

Indian man (1): It's coming from New York, but it's the same for all over America.

Indian man (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: All over the world. So . . .

Indian man (2): "We offer our sincere congratulations. It is, of course, the hand of Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Seventeen lakhs copies of our literature sold in one week.

Indian man (1): What is the daily income here? They would be interested to know the daily income for their own selves, daily income for the book sales.

Prabhupāda: Oh, book sale? Five to six lakhs.

Indian man (1): Okay.

Prabhupāda: Now, you can just imagine from the sales.

Indian man (1): And how many people it must be going. This magazine is hardly one dollar. In America is one rupee. Aur yehi market me chala jayega to . . . (Give a magazine for them. And if this goes out in the market then . . .)

Prabhupāda: So this is documentary. And the Europeans and . . . they are not fools and rascals that they are interested in purchasing other religious book, not their Bible. You see? So it has got very great potency. So under the circumstances, we should now make combined effort that it can be pushed on more organizedly. I am doing now alone, with the help of these . . . but no Indians are coming. This is the difficulty.

Indian man (2): I think, with all due respect, many Indians are trying to do things in their own villages or in their own districts.

Prabhupāda: Nobody is doing.

Indian man (2): Well, I mean, if you had been to Bharatpur recently, about 5,200 beds were there for netra-yajña, for the eyes operation.

Prabhupāda: I know. That I know. But I am speaking of this culture.

Indian man (2): Culture, yes.

Indian man (1): That is a difficulty. Everyone is giving. Because in observing karma-phela, somebody's taking care of.

Indian man (2): In bhakti and in . . .

Prabhupāda: But one thing is that we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In Bhagavad-gītā there is no such statement that you take care of the eyes of the people. There is no such statement. That is your manufactured. But we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is the difference. Our preaching is that instead of giving relief to the eyes, give him relief in such a way he hasn't got to accept any more this body with eyes. You cannot make a solution of the problem. Somebody is taking care of the eyes, somebody's taking of the finger, somebody of the hair, somebody of another, genital, and so on, so on. This will not solve the problem. The problem is, as it is said in the Bhagavad . . . janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is intelligence. As soon as you take birth, then you will have eyes, you will have eye trouble, vyādhi. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. If you accept janma-mṛtyu, then between janma-mṛtyu there is vyādhi and jarā. You have to accept. You may give some relief, but you have to accept. So that is not solution. The solution is how to stop this janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. That is solution. That is bigger solution. So we are giving that thing—there will be no more eyes' trouble. The main disease . . . suppose one man is diseased, so sometimes he is feeling headache, sometimes eye-ache, sometimes finger-ache, and you are applying some medicine for headache. That is not the solution. The solution is that this man is suffering from this disease. How to cure it? So Bhagavad-gītā is meant for that purpose. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). And as soon as you accept body—kleśada. Na sādhu manye yato ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Asann api. This body is not permanent. So because the body is not permanent, the disease also not permanent. So Kṛṣṇa's advice is tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). You make the solution—that is the greatest solution, that how to stop janma-mṛtyu. But that they do not know, that this can be stopped. They are simply busy with their temporary problems. And they are taking it as very great. What is great? Suppose if you have got a boil here. Simply by pinprick (makes blowing sound) will it cure? There must be surgical operation, get out the pus.

So this movement is for that purpose. It is not for this janma-mṛtyu, I mean, temporary jarā-vyādhi. That is all right, but Kṛṣṇa says—if we take Kṛṣṇa's advice, Bhagavad-gītā—that is not problem. If there is little trouble, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Real problem is that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), try to stop it. That is intelligence. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). That is culture; that is education—not to be very much bothered with the temporary. That is not very intelligence. Give them this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have got this body. So long you have got this body, you may give relief to the eyes, but another trouble will come. It is not guarantee that by giving them relief to the eyes he gets relief from all kinds of disease. That is go . . . that will go, going on, janma-mṛtyu . . . er, mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya (BG 2.14). So give relief, and the real relief, how to stop . . . that is our Vedic civilization, that you should not become father, you should not become mother, if you cannot give protection to your children from the cycle of birth and death. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). This is real problem. Real culture is that, "This child has come to me, so we shall train him in such a way that no more accepting body." Because as soon as we accept body . . . it is very difficult subject matter, of course, to understand, but Bhagavad-gītā teaches, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). When people forget this problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, Kṛṣṇa personally comes to teach them that, "This is your problem."

Indian man (3): Gurujī, just now the problem is of starvation also . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, starvation . . . suppose you are diseased, and if your father does not give you to eat, well, you have . . . that is your blessing.

Indian man (1): And what about . . . he will die or . . .? Or this will go away?

Prabhupāda: Why you are complaining? Suppose your father, he gives you everything. But when you are diseased, if he said: "My dear son, you cannot eat everything," is that starvation?

Indian man (3): But anyway . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all give me answer this. Is that starvation?

Indian man (3): No . . .

Prabhupāda: This is cure. This is cure. In the Vedas it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is giving food to the cats and dogs. Nobody is starving. If you are starving, that is your blessing.

Indian man (3): But then, Gurujī, suppose we see somebody . . .

Prabhupāda: We do not suppose. We get the reference to the śāstra. That is our disease. We don't manufacture. We don't manufacture anything. Our point of view is if there is starvation, then we take it mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Tat te nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam (SB 10.14.8). When we are put into starvation, we take it blessings of God. We don't complain that, "I did something wrong," or "There is something wrong, so God has put me into this position." It is His blessing. This is our view.

Indian man (2): Gurujī, my father mentioned about this very beautiful picture just above your head. He was saying it is one of best pictures he has seen of Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. And you indicated that there may be a card or something.

Girirāja: Yes, I have that.

Indian man (2): Oh. Very good.

Indian man (1): You want big picture? I can give you one.

Prabhupāda: No, you have got cards printed?

Indian man (1): I have got lot of the big ones, I think. Big ones you don't have.

Girirāja: He's asking for a card.

Indian man (2): I have been asked that he wants to keep it on his table.

Prabhupāda: I have given that picture in my Bhagavad-gītā in so many languages.

Indian man (2): Yes, that large Bhagavad-gītā.

Girirāja: Here we have it in all the different languages. This is Chinese.

Indian man (2): That I wouldn't be able to read. (laughter)

Girirāja: We're just showing that we are placing the Bhagavad-gītā in all languages.

Indian man (2): You can give me German one.

Girirāja: This is German. Oh, yes, yes. You're German.

Indian man (2): (laughs) I know a little bit of German.

Prabhupāda: So this starvation point, we take it as blessing. (Indians talking in background) People generally question that, "How God is unfavorable to somebody and favorable to . . .?" That is foolishness. God is good, but that we do not know. Because we are less intelligent, we think that, "One man is in starvation; therefore God is not good." That is our fault. We are not good. We do not understand God. But a Vaiṣṇava says: "Oh, it is blessing." And if he takes like that, then the result is mukti-pade sa dayā-bhāk (SB 10.14.8). His mukti is guaranteed. In any circumstances, if somebody takes God as good, then his mukti is guaranteed. And if he blames God—"Oh, He has put me into starvation"—then he has to suffer. This is the common argument sometimes we meet: "Oh, why God has made somebody so rich and somebody some poor? He is unjust." That is foolishness. God cannot be un . . . he's just, always just. That is God. So unless we have got that firm conviction, then we cannot become devotee.

Indian man (1): That is why Indians are not joining then. Because they are not joining this movement because of that, they cannot understand what is the reality. Because we try to comment upon the God's actions, you know: "Somebody's poor, somebody's rich, somebody's this."

Prabhupāda: But actually you don't believe in God.

Indian man (1): Acchā.

Prabhupāda: That is the disease, godlessness. If we believe in God . . .

Indian man (2): If we fully believe. But there are a large portion of . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They don't believe in Him. They think that "God, God is my servant, or order-supplier."

Indian man (2): (laughs) Order-supplier.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "God, why You have not done this? If You don't do this, I don't want You." This is our position.

Indian man (2): Isko English me likho. (Write this in English.)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means "God is my servant, order-supplier." Actually this is European mentality. One, my Godbrother, German Godbrother, that Sadānanda, he told me, in the last war, when the war was going on, generally women were left. All men were in the battlefield—somebody's husband, somebody's father, somebody's son. So they went to the church. They were going church. Even Churchill also recommended, "Go to the church. Pray." Duḥkha se saba hari bhaje sukha se bhaje kaya. So . . . but nobody returned. So all of them became atheist: "Oh, it is useless to go to church. I prayed so much for my husband's coming back, but he did not come. Useless." So this is the position. "I ordered God that, 'My husband has gone to the war. Let him come back unharmed,' and God did not bring him back, He did not carry my order. I don't want this God." This is going on. When the war was declared, there was no consultation with God. (laughter) Rascal. That time there was no consultation. And when the husband is going to die, he goes to God. This is our position.

Indian man (2): When war was to be declared . . .

Prabhupāda: Ha. There was no consul . . .

Indian man (2): They had found a final solution to the Jewish problem.

Prabhupāda: These politicians, they're everything. And when the war is very acute and the husband is going to die, then God is required. When he does sinful activities, God is never consulted, but when he suffers, then God's consulted. "And if You don't supply my order, then I don't want You." Means he remains "Don't want You." That's all.

Indian man (2): Swāmījī, may I ask one question which I had much discussion with your śiṣya here. Brahman, the sort of, what we in Hindu philosophy consider as the ultimate Godhead . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (2): Brahman you consider Kṛṣṇa. But He is, of course . . . He was incarnate. He was one of the avatāras.

Prabhupāda: That is your opinion. (laughter) That is not . . .

Indian man (2): That is our point which I want to clarify.

Prabhupāda: You have to take the śāstra, authority.

Indian man (2): Does not Gītā say . . .

Prabhupāda: Brahmaṇo aham pratiṣṭhā. Read Bhagavad-gītā. You have read Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man (2): Yes, I . . .

Prabhupāda: Did you not read this?

Indian man (2): Well, that's what I want to clarify.

Prabhupāda: (to devotee) Find out this.

Trivikrama: 14.26.

Prabhupāda: Read that.

Indian man (2): I am . . . this, even on the Eighth Chapter you will find.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmaṇo 'haṁ pratiṣṭhā. Read. Just here.


brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham
amṛtasyāvyayasya ca
śāśvatasya ca dharmasya
sukhasyaikāntikasya ca
(BG 14.27)

Prabhupāda: So He is the pratiṣṭhā. Just like in this room there is illumination. The illumination is spread all over the room. Kripya suniye. (Please hear.) So the illumination is important or the light is important? What is important?

Indian man (2): The original light, source of the light. So isn't Brahman the source of the light?

Prabhupāda: No, first of all try to understand. If the . . . just like the sunshine. The sunshine is important or the sun is important?

Indian man (2): The original sun.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, this impersonal Brahman illumination, or effulgence, that is the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (BS 5.40). So ultimately Kṛṣṇa is important, not this impersonal Brahman illumination. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti sabdyate (SB 1.2.11). You see practical example and learn here in the śāstra, you'll understand Kṛṣṇa is the origin. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8), personally says. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. So Brahman also pravartate. But if you don't believe Kṛṣṇa and śāstra, that is a different thing. Then you cannot be convinced. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. Your eyes should be through the śāstra, not by manufacturing ideas. So śāstras says this:

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-
koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam
tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(BS 5.40)

This is śāstra, Brahma-saṁhitā, that "This brahma-jyotir is the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, Govinda." So the rays of Govinda is not so important as Govinda is important. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. And Govinda personally says, ahaṁ sarvasya . . . sarvasya means everything, including Brahman.

Indian man (2): (mishears what Prabhupāda is saying as Brahmā) Brahman. With all due respect, I was talking of Brahman.

Prabhupāda: I am speaking of Brahman. Brahman means . . . Brahman means this brahma-jyotir. You mean that. Yes, I am speaking that. This brahma-jyotir . . .

Indian man (2): Īśvara is different from Brahman?

Prabhupāda: Īśvara everyone. But īśvara-parama is Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Parameśvara.

Prabhupāda: Parameśvara. There is two words: one is īśvara; one is parameśvara. You may be īśvara. You may be īśvara in your business—so many workers are working under you, and you are ordering, you are regulating—but you are not parameśvara. Similarly, you take each and every one, up to Brahmā. They may be īśvara, but he's not a parameśvara. Parameśvara is one. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). That is Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (2): Then the last question: Rāma, how do you relate?

Prabhupāda: Rāma means Kṛṣṇa, the same. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan (BS 5.39). Kṛṣṇa is always existing with His different incarnation, expansions, rāmādi-mūrti—Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha . . . there are hundreds and thousands of expansions. Advaita acyuta anādi ananta-rūpam. So Rāma is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. He's God. There is no difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṇa. Just like one candle, and if you light another candle, another candle, so one may be the first, second, third, like that, but in candle power they are all the same; similarly, Rāma is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. That does not mean Rāma is less than Kṛṣṇa. Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha . . . there are many.

Indian man (1): That is what Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra includes, Kṛṣṇa and Rāma both.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): But the translation of the word Hare in . . .

Prabhupāda: Harā.

Indian man (2): Harā, in English . . .

Prabhupāda: Original harā.

Indian man (2): What is the true translation?

Prabhupāda: Just like latā. The latā, when you address latā, it is late. Similarly, when you address harā, the sambodhana is hare. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (2): That is to remove the evil, remove the bad part, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is bad? There is no bad.

Indian man (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa means what? "Brahman, please remove from me the sin," isn't it?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Why? It is addressing.

Indian man (2): Only addressing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Addressing means with some purpose. When I address Mr. such and such, then if you say: "Yes, what do you want to say?"

Indian man (2): It has no relation with the . . .

Prabhupāda: Relation is there. Relation is there. Otherwise, how can I address him? Relation is there. So this form Hare, means Harā, is the potency of Hari. (break) Just like you are a gṛhastha. You have got your wife, you have got your maidservant. The maidservant is doing something, wife is doing something, but you have many potencies. The managing director is there, but he has got many assistants. Similarly, the Supreme Person has got multi-assistants, potencies. So they are all accepted as Harā, Hari's potencies. So we have to approach Hari through the potency: "O Hare. O the potency of the Lord. O Lord, be merciful." We cannot jump over the Lord without going through the potency. So those who are impersonalists, they cannot understand. But those who are intelligent, they can understand that God is person, He has got multi-potencies, and through the potencies He's working so nicely. This is Vedic injunction. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca.

na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate
na tat samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate
parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate
svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca
(Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8)

God has nothing to do personally. As we see a very big, rich man, he hasn't got to do anything personally, but he has got so many assistants, they're doing everything. Similarly, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. But when the things are done, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā. The knowledge is so perfect and things are done so nicely that it is automatically being done. And the rascals who cannot see behind there is God, they simply see this nature, "The nature is working automatically." It is not the fact. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛti suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). There is adhyakṣana. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro (BS 5.52). Even the sun planet, such big illuminative, powerful, it is also rotating by the order of God. So similarly, we are addressing the potencies of the Lord. We cannot jump over God, because potencies are so important; they are actually helping hand to God. So if they are pleased, then God will be pleased automatically. Why we address "Harā"? "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? The Kṛṣṇa's potency, Rādhārāṇī; Rāma's potency, Sītā . . . therefore, first of all, Sītā-Rāma; Hare Kṛṣṇa; Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa; Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. We address the first, potency. So if I request your wife, "Mother, give me this help," and if she gives that, "This man is very nice," you cannot refuse. You cannot refuse. So this is the process, the appealing to the potency of Kṛṣṇa, "So now I am so much harassed. Kindly lift me and engage me in Your service. Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is Hare Kṛṣṇa. "I have served so many life the dictation of my senses, kāmādi." Katidhā na katidhā palita durni deṣaḥ: "My lusty desires, my senses, they have dictated me in so many ways which I should not have carried. Still, I have done it." Kāmādināṁ katidhā na katidhā palita durnideṣaḥ. Nideṣaḥ. You are my master. You are asking, "Bring me a glass of water." That's very nice. But sometimes you may say that "You go to that person and speak this lie." I don't want to speak lie, but because I am your servant, I have to do that; otherwise, my service will be cancelled.

So similarly, kāmādināṁ katidhā na katidhā palita durnideṣaḥ. Nideṣaḥ is all right, but durni deṣaḥ. So we are doing this life after life, dictated by the senses, which we should not have done. But we have done it. Kāmādināṁ katidhā na katidhā palita durni deṣaḥ. So "All right, you have satisfied your master." No, no. That is also not the fact. Teṣāṁ karuṇā na jatā na trapa: "They are neither satisfied, neither they are kind upon me that, 'This man has done so much. Now don't order him.' " Teṣāṁ na karuṇā jatā na trapa. "Then what you do . . .?" "Now I have rejected him. I have come to Hare Kṛṣṇa—'Please engage me in Your service. That is my life. I have done all this nonsense life after life. They are not satisfied. So therefore my business is to serve. I have come to You. Please accept me.' " That is Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because "I have to serve. I have no other business. So I have served these rascals, but they are not satisfied." Na trapa nopasanti. "So why shall I do this business anymore? Yes. You are asking sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66). I do that. That's all."

Indian man (3): With guru-kṛpa it can be revealed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot have kṛṣṇa-kṛpa directly. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). That is Caitanya's. You have to go through guru.

Indian man (4): And how do we get guru?

Indian man (2): Guru finds you.

Giriraja: (indistinct) . . . sākṣād.

Prabhupāda: Not guru finds you. You have to find out guru. Guru is there. Guru is there. But if you want to be cheated, then you find out.

Indian man (2): Exactly.

Prabhupāda: And if you want to be cheated, the cheaters will . . . guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya. If you are actually serious to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa will give you: "Here is guru."

Indian man (2): That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Guru is there. Guru is there, but unless you are actually serious, you cannot get real guru. If you want to be cheated or if you are a cheater, then you'll get a cheater guru. (aside as someone leaves) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give prasāda. Bring prasāda. Now we go to guru for some medical help. We go to guru for some economic development. (laughter) So you'll get cheater. That's all.

Indian man (1): But how to engage these people who are desirous of serving Kṛṣṇa in Bombay? If you are talking about a farm and other things . . .

Prabhupāda: Then why we have constructed this?

Indian man (1): No, here people will not come because the people are not going business or anything, but people him, people like him, people like this, how they can engage . . .

Prabhupāda: They can come at least weekend and learn. There are so many books.

Indian man (2): We have our own . . . we have to find out.

Indian man (4): We have to find our own ways to come here.

Prabhupāda: Guru is there—Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you find? Why you are blind? Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya (BG 4.8). He has come. Why don't you take Him? Why do you go to a cheater? Because you want to be cheated. Guru is there. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7), Arjuna said. Why don't you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That means I don't want guru; I want somebody, my order-supplier. So how you can be? Because you want to be cheated, you'll get cheater. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmi (BG 4.11). Why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa as guru? What is the difficulty? Is there anybody greater than Kṛṣṇa? Do you think like that? What is your idea?

Indian man (2): He is the ultimate. There's nothing more.

Prabhupāda: He is the supreme guru. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). He's the supreme person. So why don't you accept Him as guru? That means you do not want. Then you must be cheated. If gold is available in a gold shop, purchase there. Why do you go to a pān-wala to purchase gold? Will you not be cheated? You do not know where to purchase gold, and still you are . . . "Where is guru?" Go there, where gold is sold. And if you do not know even there, then you must be cheated. You do not know where is gold is available; unfortunately you go to a pān-wala: "Have you got gold?" He'll give you some gold leaf, that's all: "Here is gold." The real thing is that guru is there, Kṛṣṇa is there. And we are presenting. We are not manufacturing. I do not say that, "I am guru." Our business is to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. Therefore I'm guru. Guru is he who speaks Kṛṣṇa's words. That is guru. And if he manufactures, then he is a cheater.

Indian man (1): This is the test of guru.

Prabhupāda: This is the test. Guru . . . the supreme guru is Kṛṣṇa, and anyone canvasses for Kṛṣṇa, he is guru, guru's represent . . . guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya. That guru will never say that, "Kṛṣṇa is dead and gone. I am now guru. I am Kṛṣṇa. I am avatāra." That is rascaldom. So if you want such rascal, then you'll be cheated. (aside) Who is bringing prasāda? Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Everything is there. Read Bhagavad-gītā very carefully. Don't misinterpret. That has killed our culture. They do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, and they stand, "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā." This is going on. Even recently I have been in Gandhi's aśrama. (laughs) It is a desert. He was student of Bhagavad-gītā.

Guests: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vinobajī also never teaches Kṛṣṇa, but he's a gītā-pravacana. What gītā-pravacana without Kṛṣṇa? Everyone is doing that—Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. What is that Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man (2): A glass without water.

Prabhupāda: If big, big men do like that, then what the followers will do? Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). This is the position of our country, that everyone has misguided in the name of leadership, and people are in bewilderment—"What to do?"

Indian man (2): But different . . . I mean . . . it was predicted that this may happen.

Prabhupāda: What?

Indian man (2): It was predicted that this may happen, there would be Kali-yuga. Then there will be Satya-yuga after. Is it not so, predicted?

Prabhupāda: I don't think. That is stated, what you are saying, that in Kali-yuga people will be so fallen. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā (SB 1.1.10). They are mandāḥ, bad, or very slow. Mandāḥ. And they have got their own manufactured ideas, sumanda-matayo. Not only mandāḥ, but they have got their own manufactured idea. And manda-bhāgyā: unfortunate. And upadrutāḥ. The first thing, three things, upadrava, disturbances . . . one disturbance is there will be no rainfall, and therefore there will be scarcity of food, and government will tax like anything. People will be so harassed that they will leave their hearth and home and go to the forest. This is awaiting in the Kali-yuga. But if you take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, you'll be saved.

kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann
asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ
kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet
(SB 12.3.51)

He'll have nothing to do with this. If you take this vaccine—there may be epidemic, it will not touch you. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we are preaching that, "Please take it." One who is fortunate will take it. And one who is manda-bhāgyā, he'll not take it. What can be done? But our business is to canvass, "Please take it. Please take it." So we will go on like that. People may take it or don't take it. Our business, because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . ya imaṁ mad-bhakteṣu. (aside) Find out. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. It is paramaṁ guhyam. When Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66), it is not very easily accepted. That is the most confidential part of His instruction. But still, we have to canvass. What is that?


ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ
mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati
bhaktiṁ mayi parāṁ kṛtvā
mām evaiṣyaty asaṁśayaḥ
(BG 18.68)

Prabhupāda: Asaṁśayaḥ.

Girirāja: Asaṁśayaḥ. "For one who guarantees . . . who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

Prabhupāda: That's all. So we are trying to do that. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). It will be accepted by the devotees, not the karmī, jñānī, yogīs, no. Only bhaktas. Therefore mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. So we have got two functions: first of all we are trying to make them bhakta, and then convincing him about this philosophy. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Without being bhakta, nobody will understand what is yoga. The beginning is bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyam ekam uttamam (BG 4.3): "Because, Arjuna, you are My bhakta, I'll explain to you. Otherwise it is lost." So without being a bhakta, nobody can understand Bhagavad-gītā. However he may say that "I am very staunch devotee. I am reader of . . ." he will misunderstand. So here Kṛṣṇa clearly says that "This is the most confidential knowledge. And without being bhakta, nobody will be able to understand." So the preacher has got two different businesses. One side, he has to make bhakta. The persons will . . . because without being bhakta, he cannot understand. Then he teaches. So these two businesses going on in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. To become bhakta there is Deity—"Come here. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: Just think of Me—just man-manā—and become a devotee." And naturally, if he comes to the temple, he'll offer some obeisances, he'll offer some flower, some fruit, mad-yājī. Even a child will offer namaskara. In this way he becomes devotee. And then he understands.

So we have got two functions. All over the world, why we are opening these centers? Bhakto 'si—to make them bhakta. And they have become bhakta. And then you speak something about Kṛṣṇa, he'll learn it. So that is explained here, ya idaṁ paramam . . . who will surrender? "Huh! I shall go to surrender to Kṛṣṇa? I shall surrender to my senses." Surrender he has to. He's not independent. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Because he's rascal by ahaṅkāra, false ego, he does not accept Kṛṣṇa—"Huh! Why shall I accept Kṛṣṇa?" He will accept māyā. And the māyā, by pulling by the ear—"Come here. Sit down"—that I shall accept. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām . . . and that . . . but stop that force. That he does not do. "Better let māyā pull me by the ear, and whatever she likes, I shall do." But he'll not like to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is very confidential knowledge, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who tries for this business . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's desire that, "Try to make these rascals devotee and convince him about the importance of Bhagavad-gītā." If you do this thing, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Then? What is next line?

Girirāja: The next verse? Bhaktiṁ mayi paraṁ kṛtvā . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah. Mām evaiṣyasi. "He becomes pure devotee, and he comes back to Me." Mam evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). That is the solution, go back home, back to Godhead. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramam (BG 15.6). That is the mission of human life. For that purpose we have to do everything—how to go back to home, back to Godhead. And that point we are missing. We are engaged in so-called philanthropic work. Real purpose of life we are missing. And this can be done only in this human form of life. The Prahlāda Mahārāja says:

kaumāra ācaret prājño
dharmān bhāgavatān iha
durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma
tad apy adhruvam arthadam
(SB 7.6.1)

Arthardam. Although it is temporary, arthadam. The dog will die, and I will also die. Both of our body is temporary. But I can die understanding the importance of life. The dog cannot. That is the difference. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja advises, kaumāra ācaret: "From the beginning of life teach dharmān bhāgavatān." So these are the indications in the śāstra. We have to do that if we actually want to do something tangible. And if you manufacture ideas, that we can do, but that will not be very much effective.

Trivikrama: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Phir aiiye. hai to sabka combined effort hona chahiye ye movement mai, (Please come again. As such it should be the combined effort of everyone in this movement.) Hare Krishna.

Indian man (5): I am going tomorrow to Kumbha. Tomorrow night.

Prabhupāda: Oh, by plane. Oh.

Indian man (5): Train. Howrah Mail, Howrah Express, getting down at Prayāga. And I'll be there to 14th and 15th.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So you can go to our camp.

Indian man (5): Camp. I am going with Mr. Munshi only. One Mr Munshi had come, I'm accompanying him only. He's already there, and we are going to put up with them only.

Prabhupāda: That is far away.

Indian man (5): And where is our.

Prabhupāda: It takes, I understand, one and a half hours to come.

Indian man (5): It is three miles away, in water, in the river.

Prabhupāda: Three miles means one and a half hour? So go one and a half hour and come one and a half hour—three hours.

Indian man (5): No, where is our camp then?

Prabhupāda: We have got our camp underneath the bridge.

Indian man (5): Jumna bridge.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (5): I'll talk to Girirāja. I have four, five, or six people with me. Dr. Misa, Durlab Mehta, he's also coming. He was life member, is there for last two, three years. He's also coming. His wife is coming. Some friends are coming. You'll be coming back when, sir?

Prabhupāda: I'm going on the 11th.

Indian man (5): Eleventh. And coming back about 17th?

Prabhupāda: Yes, but . . . yes.

Indian man (5): How is your health?

Prabhupāda: Not good.

Indian man (5): No, but you are taking that medicine or . . .?

Prabhupāda: I stopped that medicine.

Indian man (5): Too much bitter, I think.

Prabhupāda: Not only bitter. I got some trouble in the teeth . . . (indistinct) . . . suspended.

Indian man (5): Pills are taken or not taken?

Prabhupāda: Pills? No. If required I shall take again.

Indian man (5): If possible, I'll come tomorrow. Otherwise I'll see you when we come back or I'll see you there.

Prabhupāda: All right. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Trivikrama: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (everyone leaves the room) (pause) (knock on the door)

Haṁsadūta: Jaya, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa! Come on. Just now coming?

Haṁsadūta: Yes. Just now. We came by truck.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So everything is all right?

Haṁsadūta: Well, everything is all right. I came because I have to pick up one truck which was . . . it was in an accident, and it was repaired, so we have to pick that up. So I thought I would come to Bombay and also see Your Divine Grace. I heard you're not feeling well.

Prabhupāda: No. So? When you started from there?

Haṁsadūta: We started eleven o'clock yesterday, eleven o'clock in the afternoon, and we spent one night in Shalampur, a nice town. We did some kīrtana in a Dvārakādhīśa temple, very nice temple. And we stayed with the owner of a trucking company, a very nice place. You look so handsome, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So, how business is going there?

Haṁsadūta: Well, there's no money, so not much can be done. The last two days there was no prasādam distribution in the evening, and so the last two days I was there, nobody came. The problem is that since Your Divine Grace left there, the same people would be cooking, these sweeper people. And now they don't want to cook anymore because they work all day, and they say: "We can't work all around the clock, twenty-four hours." So they stopped cooking. And together with no money . . . so the whole thing has just come to a stalemate. So now another problem is that the saṅkīrtana party which we sent out is also not . . . it came back yesterday, also not going on properly. I know this causes Your Divine Grace anxiety, but I just think I should speak frankly about how I feel about the situation. I think Mahāṁsa is a very nice devotee, but I, am . . . he does everything himself. He just runs . . . he's always jumping over everything, and before it can be discussed, he's already done it. Just like he flew here. He flew here, and it costs a lot of money to fly from Hyderabad and back. It costs, I think, about five hundred rupees. And there's no need for doing things in that way. So I don't know exactly how to work with Mahāṁsa. It's not that I fight with him, I just don't know how to work out things so that it comes out in a practical way.

Prabhupāda: What is the use of investing money there? I have already given fifty thousand.

Haṁsadūta: I mean I talked with Mahāṁsa also. I talked with him when he came back yesterday, day before yesterday. And I talked with him very frankly and openly. Of course, he always says: "Yes, yes, yes," and then he just does whatever he feels should be done. And Tejas also . . . now, Tejas, for example, he started a vegetable garden, and it was going on very nicely, but then everything dried up because all the workers, they work under Mahāṁsa. They're all accustomed to taking instructions from him. And so the plants were not watered. Mahāṁsa you know continually put the water someplace else. So now everything that Tejas has done is frustrated. So he feels, "Why should I be here?" Tejas, I think, has something really to offer. I think he's experienced, but if he's not given a field and some space to exercise his talent, he's going to go away, and I feel, without Tejas . . . I mean there's no one else I can refer to about these matters. I don't know anything about farming. I don't know planting. But Tejas seems to know. And he speaks Telegu also, and he also is one of our devotees. And I have more faith in Tejas than I would any other person who we might consult. But ultimately Tejas is, I think, more important than anyone else because he is your devotee, and he's very faithful and responsible. And one other thing which Tejas . . . when he was there, he worked out financial . . . what he saw was the actual financial picture of how Mahāṁsa had been investing money in the past and what kind of result he had been getting on the basis of labor and . . .

Prabhupāda: Now the money which we have transferred, so that is . . . you are three signatures.

Haṁsadūta: We are three signatures, yes.

Prabhupāda: So . . .

Haṁsadūta: From that money, nothing has been spent yet except five thousand rupees, which went for the first well which was dug, which is not particularly good. They went to 105 feet, and the well is suitable for about three acres of land. Now, since just this small trip that I made across the . . . from Hyderabad to Bombay, I can understand the reason that there is nothing growing in that part. It's because there's no water. Even if you dig, you don't get much water. That big square well, which is already there right behind the gośālā, there is no water in it. It does not fill up. It doesn't fill up. It's not the kind of well you pump out and then it fills up.

Indian man (6): I could not go, because without discussing this farm in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: All right, you take rest.

Haṁsadūta: I'm not tired. I can . . .

Indian man (6): Girirāja Prabhu was telling about the Bombay farm now. They are having small difficulties . . . (break)

Haṁsadūta: The signatures were just . . . the signatures were just . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: First of all we must attract people, then give them prasāda. If you have no power to attract them, then how . . . what is the position? Program means men will do. If there is no men, who will do this program?

Girirāja: In that area, in Thane, they drink at night.

Prabhupāda: Let them do whatever nonsense they are doing. Let them chant and take prasāda. We don't mind what they are doing. That is later on. When I was chanting in Tompkinson Park I never asked them that "Don't come here. You are drinking." Everyone was drinking. (laughs) I know that. Everyone had illicit sex. They were coming with their boyfriend, girlfriend. I didn't know that? Was I going to restrict them first? Let them come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (pause) Caitanya Mahāprabhu stressed on this, mass kīrtana every night. He was not speaking philosophy. Philosophy with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with the mass of people. Mass of people—"Come on! Chant!" Give prasāda. This was Caitan . . . what they will understand, philosophy?

Girirāja: They won't understand.

Prabhupāda: Mass of people, let them chant and dance and take prasāda. So these centers are being opened for mass movement as well as class movement. In the village there is . . . hardly you'll get good, educated men, so there is no question of philosophy. Given them chance of chanting and take prasāda. It is useless to talk before them our philosophy. They'll never understand. But they will understand prasādam. Prasādam is so nice, if there are few grains of prasāda, even the crows will come. The condemned bird, (laughs) he will also come. You do like this. So if this has been settled, do that.

Haṁsadūta: I think Mahāṁsa would rather manage the farm himself.

Prabhupāda: Then . . . you think . . . I do not know, but manage it somehow or other. I want that prasāda distribution must go on. People should come in numbers, increase. Whatever you can produce, spend for that purpose. We are not going to produce foodstuff for our starving . . . it is for them. When they'll understand, they'll work voluntarily, "Yes, it's for us." We are not capitalists. (pause)

Trivikrama: Now there's ārati, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) (break)

Girirāja: It is a big philosophy, that everything is simply based on following the order of Kṛṣṇa without any expectation of any gain.

Prabhupāda: Then you are success. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). This is success. Kṛṣṇa says: "Do this."

annād bhavanti bhūtāni
parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ
yajñād bhavati parjanyo
yajñaḥ karma-sambudbhavaḥ
(BG 3.14)

Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We have the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So we have to do this. It is not fashion; it is the factual. And those who want to become immediately paramahaṁsa . . . paramahaṁsa does not mean some bogus men. Just like that paramahaṁsa advised our Bhagatji, "Anyone going out of Vṛndāvana . . ." He did not marry for this purpose. You know that letter? Then he stopped. Paramahaṁsa has gone away. And paramahaṁsa is looking after woman, a very beautiful woman.

Hari-śauri: Is that why Bhagatji didn't leave Vṛndāvana? Is that why he didn't want to leave?

Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't speak for anyone. But these kinds of paramahaṁsas are there. They cannot go out of Vṛndāvana, they are so advanced. But in Vṛndāvana, if there is a beautiful woman, try to exploit her. Go on. (pause) So I wanted to talk with you about that Saurabha, but he's coming on Monday. No? (pause) Because Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked the Gosvāmīs that "You develop Vṛndāvana," so Gosvāmīs, they did that. But these smoker, biḍi smoker paramahaṁsas, they imitate Rūpa Gosvāmī: "You cannot go." Simply by imitating Gosvāmīs by a loincloth they have become . . . (break) Pṛthivīte āche yata naga . . . (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). All over the world, as many villages and towns are there, preach. But this paramahaṁsa says, "No, no. I cannot go beyond Vṛndāvana." Kali's . . . Kali-yuga's paramahaṁsa. Practically, if I remained at Rādhā-Dāmodara temple becoming a paramahaṁsa, then how this institution would have come into existence? That is a fact. But we are not doing. If I would have been a great paramahaṁsa, not to leave Vṛndāvana, I would have been very happy in that room; no botheration. Then how this movement would have been started all over the world?

Hari-śauri: That kind of paramahaṁsa would have probably been pleased if the movement hadn't started.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: I said that kind of paramahaṁsa . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are against us. They criticize us, all the gosvāmīs, the bābājīs. I have become eyesore.

Hari-śauri: (laughs) Sore for their eyes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Nitāi left. He was instigated that, "Your guru is useless. Find out a better guru and remain in bhajana." This rascal left. He talked with . . . (indistinct) . . . now where he has gone?

Hari-śauri: Haven't heard anything for a while.

Prabhupāda: Nobody knows where is the paramahaṁsa. (laughs)

Girirāja: The others are envious.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they're ordinary men. Man's business is to become envious. An ordinary third-class men . . .

Hari-śauri: They're always envious.

Prabhupāda: . . . there is always envy. Not only first class, but third class. And what to speak of Vaiṣṇava and paramahaṁsa. Third-class men. And the government is capturing them and giving sterilization, because there is record—so many abortions in the American Hospital. The bābājīs are making pregnant these widows, and they are going for abortion. There are many cases, similar, and there is American Hospital.

Girirāja: In Vṛndāvana?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Not all. But wherefrom they are becoming pregnant?

Hari-śauri: What is the need for any bābājī to get sterilized, anyway?

Prabhupāda: Not to get . . . sterilization, they are being forced. The government understands that who is making them pregnant, these ugly widows. They are not coming from Delhi, government servant. (laughter) Bring them, paramahaṁsas. When I was coming, so many paramahaṁsa, they advised me, "Sir, why you are going to foreign country in this old age? You are in Vṛndāvana. Just go on with your bhajana." The bābājīs gave me advice. And actually, I was seventy years old.

Girirāja: They don't know Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: No, they don't care for. They say, "Bhagavad-gītā is not for us."

Girirāja: They say that?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the bābājīs say. They are for Bhāgavata rasa-līlā. "Bhagavad-gītā is for third class or lower class, who does not . . ." They are paramahaṁsas. They are not . . . immediately jump over rasa-līlā.

Girirāja: So they discriminate this Kṛṣṇa from that Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Vallabha-sampradāya, they say that, "Before Kṛṣṇa was contaminated, in His childhood, we worship that Kṛṣṇa."

Girirāja: Who said that?

Hari-śauri: Vallabha-sampradāya.

Girirāja: Boy!

Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa, when He was young, grown-up, He became contaminated by the gopīs." Therefore they do not touch that Kṛṣṇa. When He was below that age, Bāla Kṛṣṇa, He is innocent; He has no desire. They think this is contaminated Kṛṣṇa, and Bāla Kṛṣṇa is uncontaminated.

Hari-śauri: Then they don't accept Kṛṣṇa as being the supreme enjoyer?

Girirāja: I met someone who said that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their theory: "Kṛṣṇa is contaminated. In His young age He's contaminated."

Girirāja: Then what is the specialty . . .

Prabhupāda: Now then why . . . so-called advanced gentlemen say that "We don't want Kṛṣṇa of Vṛndāvana. We want Kṛṣṇa of Kurukṣetra." They say that. They don't want Kṛṣṇa of Vṛndāvana, dancing with the gopīs. Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, the great novelist, he had written on Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa-charitra. He has made distinction, that "Kṛṣṇa of Vṛndāvana is different from Kṛṣṇa of Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa of Dvārakā is different." Like that.

Girirāja: Well, if the Vallabhas say that they only like Kṛṣṇa before He was contaminated, so what is the specialty of Kṛṣṇa? Everyone is uncontaminated in a young age.

Prabhupāda: But do they take Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme? That is the . . . this man was saying. So I said: "God is . . ." You were not present when I was speaking with that . . .?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That "In your estimation, whether God is good or God is bad, He is God. You can think that 'God is not giving the poor man any food; therefore God is bad.' But when you think that 'Yes, God is good,' then you are devotee." This is going on: "God is good," "God is bad," "God is contaminated," "God is uncontaminated."

Girirāja: So actually they're atheists, or Māyāvādīs.

Prabhupāda: They're ordinary men, third-class men. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati . . . (BG 7.3). What they'll understand about Kṛṣṇa, third-class men? Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati. When one is siddha, out of them, one may understand. And how these third-class men will understand Kṛṣṇa? If they want to remain on the third-class position, they'll never understand Kṛṣṇa.

Girirāja: Then why do they imitate?

Prabhupāda: Some motive behind. Or they may be in the lower position. By serving, gradually they'll come to the real position. But if they do not hear what Kṛṣṇa said, then just imitates again—same. So if we decide that, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, we have to do it at any risk," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Kṛṣṇa has said. My Guru Mahārāja said. We have to do it."

Hari-śauri: I was just reading how Bali Mahārāja decided that he would please Lord Viṣṇu at any cost, and he gave everything.

Prabhupāda: Therefore mahājana. Bali Mahārāja is one of the authorities. In spite of all difficulties, all opposition . . . his guru is opposition. "No, no. I shall give Him whatever He wants." Sarvātma-samarpane bali. Bali is also mahā . . . Bali became perfect by surrendering everything to Kṛṣṇa. (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Sit down. Where is Gopāla?

Mr. Asnani: He's in office.

Prabhupāda: Did you talk with him?

Mr. Asnani: I told him that should I see Prabhupāda . . . I told him I'll come today, see you.

Prabhupāda: So call him.

Mr. Asnani: Should I bring him?

Prabhupāda: No, he's going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Asnani: Yes, I met him.

Prabhupāda: The point is that some income tax affair.

Mr. Asnani: No problem. No problem. Is it at . . . (indistinct) . . . have you seen notice?

Girirāja: Which is? About the constitution? Exemption? Ah, no . . . (indistinct) . . . no, it's not a notice as such, but they're questioning whether we deserve the tax exemption as a charitable trust. They're saying that we are not charitable, we are religious. And religious is not exempt from income tax. So the question is whether we have to change our constitution to fit their idea or whether to establish a separate trust or whether to defend that our present . . .

Prabhupāda: First thing is that we have not received any official notice.

Girirāja: No.

Prabhupāda: So why you are bothering about that?

Girirāja: Well that's what I say. We have stood up . . .

Prabhupāda: Gopāla is bothering too much about . . .

Mr. Asnani: No, Prabhupāda, with your blessings, I know the Assistant Commissioner, and he is number three or four in entire city of Bombay and a very much influential accenter. He's a courageous man also. He's a sardarji. And if I will place this problem before him as and when it is necessary, he is there to guide us.

Prabhupāda: So first of all where is the necessity? I have been talking . . .

Mr. Asnani: Why create a problem? Today the problem is not before us.

Girirāja: The thing is that the same constitution we've had since the beginning, and we've always got the exemption . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. And why you are bothering? He's going Delhi?

Girirāja: Even last time the Assistant Commissioner . . .

Mr. Asnani: Who is there in Delhi, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: This Gopāla Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Asnani: Ah, let him go.

Prabhupāda: But let him go, but I think that why unnecessarily bother?

Mr. Asnani: Today there is no problem for us.

Girirāja: Yes. She's only the Assistant Commissioner. Last time also the Assistant Commissioner was . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the position . . .

Mr. Asnani: To which one you made? Kapoor?

Girirāja: No, that was Dhave. There's so many Assistant Commissioners.

Mr. Asnani: Yes, there are so many Assistant Inspecting Commissioners.

Girirāja: Yeah. Yes, I see.

Mr. Asnani: Since we are living in Juhu—our temple is in Juhu—our registered office is at Juhu. So we will come in the jurisdiction of Piramal Chambers, which is near Nairam, which is near . . .

Girirāja: Yes, I know that.

Mr. Asnani: So he's the head of the department and entire building, that sardarji about whom I'm talking to you. Earlier he was at Aykerbol, and that is the floor upon Fort side, near Churchgate. Marine Lines, should call it. (pause) And, Prabhupāda, I may give him . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: It is a superstition that one should not lie down keeping the head on the northern side. So one says that, "I have no head at all. (laughs) So why shall I bother about keeping my head this way or that way?" Similarly, keep no head, so there will be no question of keeping northern side or southern side. That I want. We have no such program. We spend all money. I want that whatever collection is there, you spend. There is no account, and there will be no question of income tax. We are beggars. Whatever money you get, you spend. That's all.

Mr. Asnani: So your books also will show with you, ultimately at end of year, expenditure, income, equalized, neutralized.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting whatever money we have got in the bank, spend it for printing. Keep the books. That's all. I am insisting this point everywhere. You kept that money, seven thousand, seven lakhs or what?

Haṁsadūta: I was going to spend it. I spend every month, but they came at the end of the month.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the botheration came, in Germany. He was waiting for sending the money for food distribution. In the meantime, they created trouble. Anyway, we should be free like that. Spend all money immediately. (break) I say that, that don't keep any more money in the bank. Spend it.

Mr. Asnani: And keep the receipts and vouchers.

Girirāja: Yes, that we do.

Prabhupāda: Follow this policy. Just like govindāya namaḥ. When you see that the puffed rice is flying in the air, "All right, govindāya namaḥ. Govindāya namaḥ."

Girirāja: (laughs) Offer it to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise I'll not give to Govinda. Income tax officer will take, "Govindāya namaḥ." So if you distribute prasādam of Govinda among the poor men . . . we have got already in Māyāpur. Increase that. There is . . . they are drum-beating that, "Anyone who is hungry, please come and take prasāda."

Girirāja: That they accept as charitable.

Mr. Asnani: Yes.

Girirāja: They want charitable.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: So what could be more charitable than feeding?

Prabhupāda: No, you keep always kitchen, and by drum-beating that, "Any who are hungry within this area, or anywhere, come here. Take cāpāṭis, roṭī," and distribute prasādam. That is in our program.

Mr. Asnani: I shall go what Prabhupāda says, nearest to our village, which is here within ten miles, five miles, two miles.

Prabhupāda: That I ask you. Do that. Why it is stopped, I cannot understand.

Mr. Asnani: And even in the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. I'll give money . . .

Mr. Asnani: There are so many . . . (indistinct) . . . I'll distribute your papers to the . . . (indistinct) . . . in their language, Marathi.

Prabhupāda: Let them chant, dance and take prasāda, go away. That's all. No philosophy. Everyone will come. Chant, dance and take prasādam. And we shall work hard for this maintaining the establishment. We are recognized beggars. We can beg. Where is anxiety? If we go to a rich man that, "I want some money for this purpose," they will pay. Where is the question of scarcity of money? You cannot say there is no money. A sannyāsī can go anywhere: "Give me some money. I want to do this." They are meant for begging. And in India still . . . why India? Everywhere. I am speaking of India. Still now, although India is so poverty-stricken and materialized, if a sannyāsī goes to beg something, nobody will refuse. Nobody will refuse, especially in the village. They'll never refuse. "Bābā, ek mutthi chawal de do." ("Baba give a handful of rice.") He'll give. Actually, our āśramas are maintained by begging mutthi and .their houses hundred mutthis, then you can . . .

Mr. Asnani: Ten kilos, in a day , mutthi means they're so much handful of . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Mr. Asnani: And in countryside they consider, "Grace of the God is our culture." In villages . . .

Prabhupāda: In villages no sannyāsī starves. As soon as there is a sannyāsī in the village, so many villagers, "Baba, aiye, prasāda paiye . . . (Baba come here and partake of prasad.) Daily. Still in Punjab, any sannyāsī goes, he gets invitation. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was in tīrtha . . . that is the system.

Girirāja: He couldn't fulfill all the invitations.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: There were too many invitations.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Dasyu-dharma. Their business will be how to plunder. Because at the present moment the so-called democracy means, to tell the truth, all cunning, third-class, fourth-class men, they are doing. They have no sympathy for the general public. Their only aim is, so long he's in the office, gather as much money as possible. Am I right or not?

Mr. Asnani: Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: That means plunder. So if you remain with no money, who will plunder?

Mr. Asnani: Yes. No one will come.

Prabhupāda: Because they are becoming plunderer, you remain without any bhūtīs.

Mr. Asnani: So what to plunder, eh?

Girirāja: Sanātana Gosvāmī, when he suspected that they were going to steal, he told, "Get rid of it."

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Yes. He immediately offered, "I have got this seven dollars. You take it." He was astrologer. He said: "No, you have got eight dollars. But I'll not take your money." "No, no, you take, sir. You'll not take—somebody will take. I'll give you. Kindly help me." And he chastised his servant, "Why you have taken these dangerous things? So you have got still one dollar. You go back. You don't come with me. And eight dollars I have given him. I'll be free." He thought that, "Master is by sentiment leaving home, and he is so opulent. Let me go with him and keep some money in case of emergency." Of course, that is . . . from his part it was right, but he thought that, "Without this money, to remain, is more safe than to feel safety by keeping money." Because if the government is plunderer, then there is no other help. This time is coming. The government will plunder in the name of taxation, and there will be no rainfall; scarcity of food. So everyone will feel very difficult to maintain the family. They'll leave voluntarily and go away. This is foretold.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This milk is not good, eh? Even for you they cheat. I told him specially, "It's for our Gurujī. Please don't cheat."

Prabhupāda: Who cares for Gurujī? (laughs) Who cares for Gurujī? They think that, "Gurujī is cheating you—I am cheating your Gurujī. What is the wrong?" They think Gurujī means cheater. Nowadays, Gurujī means cheater. "So you are cheated by your Gurujī, so let me cheat your Gurujī." That's all. Sate satāṁ samācaret. If one is sat, cunning, you should be also cunning, more cunning. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's advice, politics. Sate satāṁ samācaret. Very miserable condition in this age. Therefore the sane man should utilize the little opportunity of human life in the cent percent Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the proper utilization of life. Try to serve Kṛṣṇa cent percent. Bās. That is proper utilization of life. The so-called philanthropy, altruism, humanitarianism, this ism, that . . . bogus . . . not bogus—useless. It will not help. They are pious activities. So Caitanya-caritāmṛta says, pious or impious, both of them are impediments to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we are not interested with pious activities or impious even. We are interested how to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our philosophy is very difficult to understand. Suppose you are giving some medical relief, and if I say that, "Why you should waste your time by giving medical relief? Why not give him relief from birth and death?" they will laugh. Is it not? They'll laugh that, "What nonsense he's speaking? This man is suffering. He immediately requires." We don't say that, "You don't give medical relief," but why do you forget the real business? That is our . . . Vivekananda said: "What is the use of pouring water in tulasī? Better pour water in a eggplant śāka. You'll get some eggplant." This is . . . Vivekananda said. Eggplant is also a small tree, and tulasī . . . so if somebody is pouring water on a tulasī leaf for bhakti, he condemns him, "Why you are wasting time? Pour water on this eggplant. Tomorrow you'll get two." (laughs) This is karmī. "God is fictitious. God's service is another sentiment. Do something practical."

Mr. Asnani: He was a politician. Pseudo-politician.

Prabhupāda: He went to preach Vedānta, but instead of preaching Vedānta, he learned so many things which is objectionable from Vedic civilization.

Mr. Asnani: He also said that you cannot teach the religion on empty stomachs.

Prabhupāda: That is his philosophy.

Girirāja: So many people say that.

Mr. Asnani: No, but this has come old, you know . . .

Prabhupāda: But why the kings left their kingdom and became empty stomach? There were . . .

Mr. Asnani: They lived in the jungle for tapasya.

Prabhupāda: Why this Bhārata-varṣa, Bharata Mahārāja, at the twenty-four years of age and his wife was young, children were young, and he was emperor of the whole world, so why went voluntarily to become empty stomach? He was not poverty-stricken. But why he accepted?

Devotee: Tapasya.

Mr. Asnani: No, he realized that the material world is not the solution.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of empty stomach. God is supplying food to the ant, and why shall I remain empty stomach? Śukadeva Gosvāmī has said, cīrāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ. Find out this verse. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān (SB 2.2.5). Cīrāṇi kiṁ na santi, pathi.

Girirāja: Is it the First Canto?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The first word is cīrāṇi. C-i-r-a-n-i.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Cīrāṇi.

Girirāja: Is it cira-vasa-nira . . .? (indistinct discussion)

Prabhupāda: No, no, cīrāṇi there is. I think it is Second Canto. Maybe Second Canto.

Girirāja: Yes. I have it.

cīrāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ
naivāṅghripāḥ para-bhṛtaḥ sarito 'py aśuṣyan
ruddhā guhāḥ kim ajito 'vati nopasannān
kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān
(SB 2.2.5)

Oh, yes. This is very good.

Prabhupāda: Dhana-durmadāndhān. What is the translation?

Girirāja: "Are there no torn clothes lying on the common road? Do the trees, which exist for maintaining others, no longer give alms in charity? Do the rivers, being dried up, no longer supply water to the thirsty? Are the caves of the mountains now closed, or above all, does the Almighty Lord not protect the fully surrendered souls?"

Prabhupāda: Where is the question of empty stomach? Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān. Last line.

Girirāja: "Why, then, do the learned sages go to flatter those who are intoxicated by hard-earned wealth?"

Prabhupāda: They think that, "Why should we go to God? The devotees come here to beg from us. We are bigger than God."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Puffed-up.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they say "empty stomach." (break)Kim ajito na avati upasannan. Read the meaning.

Girirāja: "kim—whether; ajitaḥ—the Almighty Lord; avati—give protection; na—not; upasannān—the surrendered soul."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto . . ." And one who has surrendered, does it mean Kṛṣṇa has no responsibility? So why you are bothering to go into this dhana-durmadāndhān?

Mr. Asnani: Unconditional surrender.

Prabhupāda: Huh? You have done already upasannān. So is Kṛṣṇa unable to maintain you? Why should you go to this blind man? So we go not for our maintenance. We want to engage his hard-earned money to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our mission. Not for this belly. For belly we refuse to go anywhere. You'll find in Kumbha-melā, still there are sādhus, they are not going anywhere. And they are starving? We go—gṛhināṁ dina-cetasām—"This rascal is absorbed in the thought of comfortable life, and he has taken only these wife and children, everything. Give him some other . . ." This is our mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa.' (CC Madhya 7.128) Let him go there and sit down and talk with him and give some instruction of Kṛṣṇa. This is our misiion. we are not going for this belly. Ye khali pet kay karega. (What will he do on an empty stomach?) They are criticizing that, "This man is empty stomach, and he has come to me." What does he care for empty stomach? No. Even they insult that, "They are empty stomach," it doesn't matter. It is my duty to give him some enlightenment about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Never mind. Let him insult. Nityānanda Prabhu, He was injured. Still, He said, "All right. You have injured. I don't mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa . . . "I don't mind you have injured, but I request you that you chant." This should be missionary . . . but they are thinking, "These people, empty stomach, they have come to us. We are . . . we don't require any God. We have got industries." This is going on. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gītā.

Hari-śauri: What was that?

Prabhupāda: Yā niśā. . Y.

Hari-śauri: Y. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānām?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Baccho jaise inko seekhana hai. (I have to teach them like children.) But they are kept in darkness. This whole civilization is like that.


yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ
tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī
yasyāṁ jāgrati bhūtāni
sā niśā paśyato muneḥ
(BG 2.69)

"What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled, and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage." Purport? "There are two classes of intelligent men. The one is intelligent in material activities for sense gratification, and the other is introspective and awake for the cultivation of self-realization. Activities of the introspective sage, or thoughtful man, are night for persons materially absorbed. Materialistic persons remain asleep in such a night due to their ignorance of self-realization. The introspective sage remains alert in the 'night' of the materialistic men. The sage feels transcendental pleasure in the gradual advancement of spiritual culture, whereas the man in materialistic activities, being asleep to self-realization, dreams of varieties of sense pleasure, feeling sometimes happy and sometimes distressed in his sleeping condition. The introspective man is always indifferent to materialistic happiness and distress. He goes on with his self-realization activities undisturbed by material reaction."

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, in this stanza, I have not followed a little. That stanza which he just read it. Now, a spiritual bent of mind person, he sleeps in the daytime. I mean the . . .

Prabhupāda: Materialist person . . .

Mr. Asnani: He sleeps in the nighttime, and there's trouble in his thoughts. Whereas a spiritual man, he's awoken in the nighttime and sleep in the daytime.

Prabhupāda: First of all let us understand what is sleeping and awakening. This is the real understanding. The materialistic man, he's sleeping about self-realization. He has no information.

Mr. Asnani: He has no?

Prabhupāda: Information.

Mr. Asnani: Yes, sure.

Prabhupāda: But the spiritualistic man, he's awakened in that, that this life is meant for self-realization. So the materialistic man, he does not know. He's kept in darkness of night. And the spiritualistic man is awakened. That is the difference.

Mr. Asnani: Why the day and the night . . .?

Prabhupāda: Night means ignorance, when one sleeps.

Mr. Asnani: Oh, night like ignorance; day is awakened.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And day is awakening. So what is day for the materialistic person, so that is night for the spiritualistic person. And what is day for the spiritualistic person, that is night for the . . . just like a spiritualist person, he has sacrificed everything and he is after God, and they are thinking, "These rascals, unnecessarily, empty stomach, wasting, 'Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa,' chant." They are deriding. And he is thinking that, "This rascal got this human form of body. Instead of spiritual culture, he's spoiling his life, cats and dogs." That means in the subject matter where the spiritualists were not interested, he is interested. And in the subject matter, the spiritual person, interested, he is not interested. This is day and night.

Mr. Asnani: Oh, I was taking sometime in literary senses. So it was sometimes confusing me.

Prabhupāda: No, it is literally, that yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. He, spiritualist person, he knows that "What is the use of the sense gratification? The sense gratification is there in the cats and dogs. Why I am wasting in this way?" That is awakened. What is the difference? A man is having sex life in a very nice apartment, very decorated and nice cot. He is enjoying sex life that, "I am advanced civili . . ." And the dog is enjoying sex life on the street in presence of everyone. But the enjoyment of sex life is the same. There is no difference, either for the dog or for the man. So the spiritualistic man, he says that, "Why shall I waste my time in sex enjoyment? This is enjoyed by the dogs and cats. I have got this human form of life for spiritual advancement." So saṁyamī: "Stop this nonsense. Let me cultivate spiritual life." Saṁyamī. Saṁyamī means sense gratification stopped. That is saṁyamī. And he is not saṁyamī. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). Because he's not saṁyamī, his sense are uncontrolled, so he's opening the path of hellish condition of life. The business is the same—āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam—based on this maithuna, sex life. So you'll find the fly is doing the same thing, and the dog is doing the same thing, and the human being is also doing the same thing, and the king of heaven, he is doing the same thing. The business is the same: punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Only the body is different. But they are thinking that, "If in the body of Indra I can have sex with Śacīdevi, that is advancement." (laughter) He does not think that the sex life with Śacīdevī or the street dog, it is the same. There is no difference. And that is jāgarti. That is awakened. There is one word—where it is, I don't remember—maithunam agaram ajñāḥ. This is . . . this material life is a term of imprisonment, of imprisonment in sex. Just like imprisonment means you are detained in a place allotted by the government; you cannot go out. So here, this material world, the imprisonment is the sex. You cannot go out.

Mr. Asnani: Only sex, Prabhupāda? Or . . .

Prabhupāda: All sex. First of all sex.

Mr. Asnani: But among them, the sex is very powerful.

Prabhupāda: Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etat. This is the basic principle of. A man and woman is married; the purpose is sex. Now, when he's married, ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair: "Then where shall I enjoy sex? I must have very nice apartment," gṛha. Then "I must maintain myself," kṣetra. Formerly agriculture was the source of maintenance. Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra. "Then I get some children," suta, "then some friends." Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-suta apta vitta. "Then money." In this way, janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). He increases this paraphernalia, and he becomes entangled: Ahaṁ mam . . . "I am the proprietor; I am the father; I am this; I am that." And one day, nature's law comes, gives him a slap, "Get out!" Finished.

Mr. Asnani: All relationship goes away.

Prabhupāda: Mṛtyuḥ ahaṁ sarva-haraś ca (BG 10.34). "I take away."

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, why people are not able to understand this?

Prabhupāda: Fools! Mūḍho nābhijā . . .

Mr. Asnani: Even we are encircling ourselves in the desires, cage.

Prabhupāda: Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param . . . (BG 7.25). They do not know the aim of life. Therefore apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2). Cannot see what is the aim of life. Therefore it is the duty of the parents. That is advised by Prahlāda Mahārāja. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān (SB 7.6.1). From the very beginning of life they should be taught about this bhāgavata-dharma. That is brahmacārī. Brahmacārī, to train him to be self-controlled . . . if I ask you, "Give me your sons. We shall teach him how to become self-controlled," you'll laugh. Because you know, "What will be the benefit by becoming self-controlled? There is struggle for existence. He has to earn money, maintain himself." I have got this experience.

Mr. Asnani: Yes. You told my wife also.

Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested. That is the difficulty in this age. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know how one can become happy. They are simply hoping against hope. Durāśayā. Aśayā means hope, and dura means which will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ.

Pradyumna: You wrote that essay one time, "Hope Against Hope."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: "Hope Against Hope."

Prabhupāda: Hope against hope is which is never fulfilled.

Mr. Asnani: Living in the fool's paradise.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "This plan has failed. Now let me this, make this plan." And then again fail? "All right, let me this." This is hope against hope. He's thinking that "This plan has failed. Let me do this plan." Again failed? "Again another, again another."

Mr. Asnani: Foundation, as you said, is on the household.

Hari-śauri: Moghāṣā.

Prabhupāda: Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ . . . (BG 9.12).

Hari-śauri: Baffled hope.

Prabhupāda: It will never be fulfilled, but still, they will make plan. The Napoleon made a plan. Hitler made a plan. Churchill made a plan. Gandhi made a plan. Mussolini made a plan. But the plan and plan-maker—all washed away. Things are going on as it is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Don't make plan. Take to My plan. You'll be happy. I'll give you." This plan-making . . . our government has got planning commission. The planning commission has brought people in such a condition that they are dying of starvation. And they are taking salary, big, big, fat salary. This is going on.

Mr. Asnani: And taking share from the black market also.

Prabhupāda: How you can expect good wishes from such persons? Very precarious condition. Your son, you take care. Now, as soon as you make a committee to take care of your son, then everything is finished. Is it not? The committee members will finish the son and the son's maintenance and everything. But that is going on. Formerly there was one monarch. He was acting according to the Vedic instruction. So he was responsible. And if there are many votes, by vote a government, a combination of plunderers, what they will take care of the people? It is impossible. Otherwise why there was need of dragging down Nixon? He was elected, wrong elected. Wrong must be. The people are wrong. They do not know who is the right man. Any rascal makes some intrigue, and he gets vote. And then they detect, "Oh, he's the wrong man." Again another is taken. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). And what is the guarantee that another man is right? Because the process is wrong.

Hari-śauri: They're continually re-electing a new man. The got rid of Nixon, put Ford in. Now they've got rid of Ford; they've put Carter in. And then they'll get rid of Carter, and they'll put someone else in.

Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30): "Again and again chewing the chewed." But if they make it point that "If one is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I'll not give a vote," then everything will be perfect, nice.

Hari-śauri: Some countries fine you if you don't vote. If you don't vote, they fine you just to make people vote, because they know otherwise everybody's so disgusted . . .

Prabhupāda: Just see. I have never given vote. Since we have got this svarāj, as soon as the vote question, I go away. Because I think, "Why shall I give this nonsense vote? None of them are liked by me." I avoid it. In my gṛhastha life, the municipal board and the . . . I avoid. I don't believe in. So give Mr. Asnani some fruits.

Hari-śauri: Some fruit?

Prabhupāda: Cut into pieces.

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, Allahabad, where are you staying?

Prabhupāda: We have got our own camp. You are coming?

Mr. Asnani: I am not fortunate.

Prabhupāda: I am going because I have to go to Bhuvaneśvara via Calcutta. So it is on the way. And besides that, it is a big function. And because my health is not good, if Allahabad atmosphere or Bhuvaneśvara atmosphere helps me little, it is . . . of all foodstuff, I see the khichrī is good for me, little khichrī.

Mr. Asnani: Easily digested also.

Prabhupāda: So I shall begin again khichrī. khao sab, aur khana hai. (All of you eat, there is some more.) (break) . . . take agriculture, you must keep cows. Both of them are related.

Girirāja: Together.

Prabhupāda: The cow will be subsisting on the grass, and refused things he'll take. And the substance you take. And even if does not give milk, the stool is useful. And you get food grown by the cows and bulls and milk. You subsist. So by mutual cooperation you subsist. You save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why you are bothered?

Girirāja: No bother.

Prabhupāda: This I want to introduce. And it has become successful in the Western countries. They are doing very nicely, New Vrindaban. Very nice. And Philadelphia, New Orleans. Men, they're happy. So why not in India? India is mainly agricultural country. On this principle you can take. There is no objection. I left Haṁsadūta in charge, but he left everything.

Girirāja: Actually, it seems that in your system of management, the basic principle is to depend on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? He says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo (BG 18.66). Distress will be if I am disobedient. This is nature's law. And if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, where is the question of distress? Sukha se saba hari bhaje duḥkha se haje. This is one Hindi poetry, that "When one is in distressed condition, he goes to God: 'Please save me. Give me this mercy.' " So duḥka se means: "In distressed condition he becomes a devotee." But if he becomes a devotee when he's happy, then where is the question of duḥkha, or distress? Sukha se saba hari bhaje. When you are happy, at that time if you worship Hari, then there is no question of duḥkha. That Vivekananda's policy, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. Why not sevā-nārāyaṇa? Why He should become daridra? Why not engage in? That he does not know. "He becomes a daridra-nārāyaṇa, and I become his servant." Foolish rascal. A discovered philosophy. (end)