760814 - Conversation A - Bombay
Prabhupāda: So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is . . . it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that. No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . "So I am also dead." He died later on.
Dr. Patel: Next day.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said: "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died.
Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: These things are not very wonderful. From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Āsakti. One has to give up āsakti. That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily.
Dr. Patel: Anāsakta-manaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association.
Dr. Patel: Even there is worship . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are āsaktis. This husband and wife dying together, it is . . . (indistinct) . . . because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again.
Dr. Patel: Soul has got no sex.
Dr. Patel: Karma-bandha and jīva.
Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter.
Harikeśa: Karmātmakaṁ yena?
Prabhupāda: Ah, śarīra-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma . . .?
- parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto
- yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam
- yāvat kriyās tāvad idaṁ mano vai
- karmātmakaṁ yena śarīra-bandhaḥ
- (SB 5.5.5)
Harikeśa: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma, his mind is called karmātmaka: colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body."
Prabhupāda: That's all. Lābha wahi hogā. That is the only result. The woman will become man and the man will become woman.
Dr. Patel: So long you are taking birth . . .
Prabhupāda: What action you have got? Before that the verse is,
- nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
- yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
- na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
- asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
- (SB 5.5.4)
So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand.
Dr. Patel: Kuṇape tri-dhātuke.
Prabhupāda: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brahmin's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries.
Dr. Patel: But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God . . .
Prabhupāda: No, you have got . . . you can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . . .
Dr. Patel: Bhakti-avyabhicāriṇī. I have got that tendency, bhakti, avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti.
Prabhupāda: No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena ya . . . so you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So without bhakti-yoga there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body.
Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66).
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the only business, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is there. If you want to stop dehāntara-prāptiḥ, then you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die and again enter, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19) . . . if you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore śāstra says na sādhu manye. It is not good. Nūnam. Read that verse.
- nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
- yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
- na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
- asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
- (SB 5.5.4)
Prabhupāda: Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada, as soon as you get a body, kleśada. May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. (Dr. Patel laughs) We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye. It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ. And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation—nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Black money, white money, this money, that . . . never mind, bring money.
Dr. Patel: (laughter) By any way.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man, means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you have got . . . you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bās. This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-prītaya: only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor . . . I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no faith . . . our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life.
Dr. Patel: There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality(?) of India, they have proved that there is rebirth.
Prabhupāda: That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to through psychological process. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bās, finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and . . .?
Dr. Patel: But those . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool.
Dr. Patel: They are fools to not to think that they'll become . . .
Prabhupāda: They are rascal fools because they do not take Kṛṣṇa's word. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Kṛṣṇa's instructions. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga, so-called meditation, so-called this and . . . we don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās. You simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our . . . we haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Take it. No interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled.
Dr. Patel: Each man understands according to his own level of understanding.
Prabhupāda: No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12), the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big svāmīs, big, big yogīs, big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bās. This is going on. Very serious condition.
Dr. Patel: You are not going to go down now?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go on the terrace, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: If I like, I can . . . (conversation in Hindi with Dr. Patel) Why I have taken so much trouble?
Dr. Patel: They are already traced out. So we come here.
Prabhupāda: No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission.
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
Para-upakāra. Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission. Our teachers, our ācāryas, do not teach us, "Go and exploit others and bring money"—British Empire. This is not India.
Dr. Patel: Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers.
Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally the people, they want to exploit others.
Dr. Patel: It is the greed of the human being.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para-upakāra. That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra. India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage, "Oh, they are very liberal. Enter there." And still we are liberal, "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway. I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. "Come here, stay." Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others.
Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious." "How?" Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do. A child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that. No. Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68): "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). There is no difficulty in preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme.
Dr. Patel: These are the people who have no faith.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī:
- kṛtvā ca kāku-śatam etad ahaṁ bravīmi
- he sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrād
- caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam
- (Caitanya-candrāmṛta 90)
This is preaching. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, what is that? Kāku-śataṁ padayor nipatya, kāku-śatam kṛtvā, śatam, "I fall down on your feet, and I am flattering you with folded hands." "Why? Why? What do you want to say?" "Yes, I have to say something." "What is that? Say it! Why you are becoming so humble?" "Yes, I have to say." "What? Say it!" He sādhavaḥ, "You are a very nice sādhu. But you forget all nonsense."
Dr. Patel: That's kāku-śatam.
Prabhupāda: He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya, "Whatever nonsense you have learned, forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam. "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"—this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . .? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and . . . to be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I recognize. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam. What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam. And they are simply manufacturing nonsense.
So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Bās, all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." (laughter) Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog; just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science: you have infected the disease, you must suffer it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. Guṇa-saṅgaḥ. There's infection.
Dr. Patel: Only in nirguṇa, a man can become nirguṇa by . . .
Prabhupāda: Eh, don't talk of nirguṇa. First of all (laughter) become a dog.
Dr. Patel: Because the only thing that can bring nirguṇa, then you may stop from getting a dog, if you do the bhakti. That is what I mean.
Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa means bhakti. Nirguṇa means bhakti. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). That is nirguṇa. When you are untouched by the three guṇas, then you are nirguṇa. That is not very easy job.
Dr. Patel: Very difficult.
Prabhupāda: That is not easy.
- māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa
- bhakti-yogena yah sevate
- sa guṇān samatītyaitān
- brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
- (BG 14.26)
Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54). Nirguṇa is not so easy thing. This is nirguṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This is nirguṇa. Otherwise, everything sa guṇān, everything sa guṇān. Only fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, nirguṇa. This is . . . So . . . Humara desh me Bhagavad-gītā hai ispar sab hai, ise cchor chaar karte hai. There is Bhagavad-gītā in our country. The instructions are all there but they are giving up everything. They are talking, "Yes, you take Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa." They say it. And they are doing that.
Dr. Patel: Who?
Prabhupāda: Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad-gītā. Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like that. Very worse condition of the world, godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya, that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . (BG 13.22). Find out.
Guest: Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān.
Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. He has to. He has to. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. So we are now put into the material prakṛti, and prakṛti-jān guṇān, we have to accept another body.
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
This is the rascaldom. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Prasādam, you have got? (devotees offer obeisances) What is the report?
Yaśomatīnandana: We are publishing monthly magazine every month now. One is coming out in a few days for Janmāṣṭamī. And we have changed new house, very good house . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What is the rent?
Yaśomatīnandana: Land also . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, rent.
Yaśomatīnandana: Rent is thousand rupees. One thousand rupees, plus tax for government.
Prabhupāda: Plus twelve hundred?
Yaśomatīnandana: No, plus two hundred tax. They are Life Members from Ahmedabad. They came to see Your Divine Grace.
Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. So give them place to stay. So . . . (indistinct) . . . (end)