750128 - Lecture BG 16.08 - Tokyo

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



750128BG-TOKYO - January 28, 1975 - 73:30 Minutes



Nitāi: (leads chanting of verse, etc.) (devotees repeat)

asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te
jagad āhur anīśvaram
aparaspara-sambhūtaṁ
kim anyat kāma-haitukam
(BG 16.8)

(aside:) Page 732. (continues leading chanting with devotees responding)

(break) (01:48)

"They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust."

Prabhupāda:

asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te
jagad āhur anīśvaram
aparaspara-sambhūtaṁ
kim anyat kāma-haitukam
(BG 16.8)

This is the atheistic theory, asatyam. They say that this material world is false. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Jagat, jagat means this cosmic manifestation which is gacchati, going. In the material world, everything is going. Just like in your city, you see the cars, motorcars; they are going here and there, gacchati, very busy. Every man is going here and there. Similarly, the whole planetary system also, beginning from its birth up to the annihilation, it is going, moving, orbit. It is going. Everything is going, moving. Even the sun, it has got its orbit. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta..., aśeṣa-tejāḥ, yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ (Bs. 5.52). The... Just like the earth has its orbit—it is rotating—similarly, every planet is rotating. The sun is also rotating. And so far I calculate, it is sixteen thousand miles per minute, or second. I calculated once. The sun is rotating sixteen thousand miles either per minute or per second. I forget now.

So this is called jagat. Everything is going on. But it is going in such a way... Just like these cars are moving with high speed, but they are very careful to pass within the lane. Otherwise there will be collision. Similarly, all these planets, they have got their own speed for rotating, and there are hundreds and thousands and millions, they are rotating, but there is no collision. Now, how it is made? Who has made this lane? A car is moving in sixty miles, seventy miles speed, but they are ordered just to remain within the lane, the marking line. Who has made it? The police department, the government. So how can you say there is no control? We have to... This is called upamā, analogy, the points of similarity. Analogy means the points of similarity. Then you can conclude some idea.

Now, as we see in the street that the cars are moving in high speed, but they are within the orbit, within the line, demarcation of line, white line or yellow line. So there is some brain, there is some management; everything is there. Similarly, all these planets, they are rotating with high speed. Just like this planet. It is rotating 25,000 miles in twelve hours. Is it not? The circumference of this earth is 25,000 miles and... Yes, day and night, twenty-four hours. Almost one thousand miles per hour it is... Now, the car is moving seventy miles per hour. It appears very, with good speed running. But the earth is running at one thousand miles per hour, but we cannot understand. The arrangement is so nice. The perfection that it is... We cannot understand it. It is practical. We see the morning, day, coming. That means earth is moving. When the aeroplane moves also, there are so many jerking, those sound. They're all imperfect. But here you see that such perfect arrangement - it is moving one thousand miles per hour, and there is no jerking. There is nothing of the sort. We are thinking, "We are sitting in the same place." And there is no brain? Here it requires so much brain to move the car orderly on the street. So many police has made, so many government, scientist, this, that, so many—and this not only one planet, but many millions: yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (Bs. 5.40).

First of all there are many millions of universes, jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. Koṭi means unlimited. Or 100,000 times 100,000. So yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣu (Bs. 5.40). And each universe... Koṭiṣu aśeṣa-vasudhādi. Vasudhā means planet. Just like this is one planet. Aśeṣa. Aśeṣa means you cannot count. So many. That's a fact. You are seeing every day. Aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti. And each planet has got different climate, different varieties, not that every planet is of the same. Now they are studying that the moon planet is also planet, but it is differently situated. Differently situated, as they are studying, that is different from the śāstras, but there is difference from this planet to that planet. These modern scientists, they say that there is no life, and there cannot be any living entity, considering the atmosphere. But from the śāstra we know in the moon planet, that is one of the heavenly planets, and there are living entities. They are living for ten thousand years. And it is very cold there, therefore they drink soma-rasa. And some of the scientists, they say that the temperature in the moon planet is 200 degrees below zero. So similarly, you will find every planet is different from the atmospheric condition of the other planet. Just like sun planet. It is so fiery. It is full of fire, agni. The temperature is so high that..., ninety thousand or twenty millions miles?

Trivikrama: 93,000,000.

Prabhupāda: 93,000,000 miles away from the sunshine, still, we are feeling too much hot, scorching heat. So this planet is..., the temperature is very, very great. But still, there are life. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I went there and I spoke to the sun-god"? The sun-god... As there is president here, there is also president. He is called sun-god. His name is Vivasvān. Everything is there, and Kṛṣṇa went there and talked with him. But this is a fiery planet. Similarly, the moon is very cold. So every planet has different atmospheric, and they are moving in their orbit, their duration of their life—everything, there is good arrangement.

So all these arrangements, there is no good brain behind it? How is that? But the rākṣasas, the demons, they will say, asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8): "There is no controller, and it is all false." False? So minute rules and regulation are being followed. The sun is rotating on the orbit in a such a perfect way that if the sun is inclined to this side or that side, there will be..., whole world will be frozen or in blazing fire. This is the scientific opinion. It must rotate according to the diagram given by some controller. That is stated in Bhāgavatam: "By the order of the Supreme." Yasyājñayā. Here also, in the Brahma-saṁhitā, yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. The sun is rotating, yasya ājñayā. Ājñayā means "by order."

So when the question of order is there, then there must be one order-giver, and there must be one order-carrier. Otherwise, what is the meaning, "order"? Yasya ājñayā, "by whose order." "Whose" means this whose—somebody bigger who is giving order, and the sun planet is carrying out the order. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. So there is order-giver; there is controller, the Supreme Lord; and there is order-carrier, the sun-god. Otherwise, who is carrying the order? If it is only a lump of matter, then who will carry out the order? Now, this Tokyo city, if it is a lump of matter only, then how the systematic order of traffic rules and regulation is... It is not only lump of order..., er, of matter, but there is somebody, the government or the king or the president, who is maintaining the order. This is conclusion. This is analogy. Then how you say that there is no controller? Where is your logic? Can anybody give any logic that there is no...

These rākṣasas, they say there is no God, there is no controller, but where is the logic? How you can say so? What is your analogy? What is your logic, that you say there is no God? Let us discuss. Can anybody say here? Hmm? What is the idea? If things are going on systematically, the planets are moving in the orbit systematically, everything is going on... Just like same example: always remember, I may be foreigner, but because I see that on the street the cars are moving in order, the police is standing, there must be government. That is... I may know or not, but this is commonsense affair. There must be government, and there is government. Similarly, when I see that the cosmic order is working so nicely, systematically and reasonably, then how I can say there is no controller? Where is my logic? Tell me, anyone. Hmm? Can you say, anyone, why they say there is no controller? Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). What is their logic? You tell. (to Nitāi:) You are sometimes on their side. (laughter) What is their logic?

Nitāi: Well, that no controller is ever seen.

Prabhupāda: But you have not seen who is Japanese government, president. How do you conclude there is government? You have not seen the president or the supreme head. So how do you say there is government? We have not seen who is the president, who is the prime minister. Then how do we conclude that "There must be government. Otherwise how it is going on so nicely?" You may see, you may not see so many things, but does it mean... That is not a good logic, that "I have not seen." I have not seen, but the sound is coming. The car is there. There must be somebody there. Even if we do not see, you have to conclude like that. Just like there is sound. The sound is of car, and the car, there must be one driver. You have not seen. So how do you conclude there is a driver?

Trivikrama: Very good.

Prabhupāda: How do you conclude? And why do you give stress on your seeing power? What is the power of your seeing? You cannot see. Now you cannot see the car. It is beyond your seeing range or beyond the wall. Then how you conclude that there is a car? And if there is a car, there is a driver. If there is driver, there are passengers. So how do you conclude all this? Why do you give this... This is childish reason, "I cannot see." You cannot see; therefore there is no existence. That is not good logic.

Trivikrama: They say that it all happened by chance, that it...

Prabhupāda: Then that is another foolishness, "chance."

Trivikrama: If given enough time, then everything would work out like this. The thing that they say...

Prabhupāda: No, they are working already. There is no question of giving time. They are already working.

Trivikrama: No, but you say that because the earth isn't too hot or too cold. But they say that just by chance it came into this order.

Prabhupāda: No, no, "by chance..." This is childish reason, "by chance." It is not very good reason. A child will say, "Chance it has come." That is childish. You must give solid reason. Chance, you can say anything as chance. Everybody can say like that. That is not reason. When you bring in chance, that is not logic. That is not knowledge. If somebody says, "By chance I have come in this world," that is not logic. I must have my father. I must have my mother. And on account of father-mother being united, I am... This is scientific. "By chance I have dropped from the sky here," (laughter) this is not logic. This kind of logic is vague only. That is no... It has no value. Do you give any value to this logic, nonsensical logic? No sane man will accept "by chance." When you are caught and you are convicted, then if you say, "By chance I became convicted..." By chance? No. You committed theft, you were arrested, there were due judgment, and the judge has given you punishment. You must suffer. It is not a chance. And if you say, "By chance I am now convicted," that is not chance. There is no question of chance. This is a false logic, "chance." Nothing takes place by chance. That is sound reasoning. Chance means ignorant. One who does not know, he says "chance." That is ignorance. That is not knowledge. Knowledge is different. So they are rascals, you can say. This kind of logic, "I have not seen," "It has come by chance," "There was a chunk," these are all nonsensical proposition. There is īśvara. This is sound knowledge. As you conclude by seeing the arrangement in the Tokyo city there is government, similarly, if you are intelligent enough, then you can understand there must be a controller. That is theism. That is knowledge.

Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Therefore this foolish class of men who are simply studying, they want time to find out, but actually if he is wise, if he is searching out regularly by wise conclusion, then, at some time, he will come to the conclusion, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: after many births of research work, he will come to this conclusion that there is God, Vāsudeva. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Then he is the first-class mahātmā. But that is very rare. Everyone is durātmā, anīśvaram: "There is no īśvara. This is a false manifestation." That is not false. You study everything. You study even one plant. You can see so many arrangement, so many fibers. Fine fibers are coming out, and from one fiber to another. Even a small herb and vegetable, you will find there is craftsmanship. You cannot say it is chance. You cannot do it.

So there is brain. That is right conclusion, "There is brain behind it," and that is theism. And that brain, what is the brain behind this, who has this brain behind this, behind this, behind this, behind this, if you come... Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, after searching out for many, many births, then one comes to the conclusion that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). You come to the conclusion, "Kṛṣṇa is the cause of everything." That is already concluded. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1): "Īśvaraḥ, the supreme controller, is Kṛṣṇa." Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ... There are so many controllers. Just like this city is being controlled by the police commissioner or somebody else. So above him, above him, above him, there is controller. And the... Above all, the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. That is the conclusion.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
(Bs. 5.1)

He is the cause of... He is... Alone, He is working. He has expanded alone. He is not alone. Kṛṣṇa means He has got so many energies.

Just like a teeny person like me, Bhaktisiddhānta..., Bhaktivedanta Swami. So this movement—I am not alone. I have got so many assistants, so many, all over the world. So as soon as you take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and its originator, founder, so he is not alone. Similarly, as I have expanded with my disciples in so many ways and so many places, so if I can expand—I am a common man—then how Kṛṣṇa can expand, just imagine. He is the Supreme Lord. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Ananta-rūpam. He can expand Himself, ananta-rūpam. But He is the only person. He is doing everything. Just like I am replying dozens of letters from all over the world and trying to manage. Similarly, He is also managing alone, ananta-rūpam, by unlimited assistants. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). We have to understand like that. Although He is alone, He has... Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam, ananta-rūpam. He has got ananta-rūpam. Just like He is giving direction everyone. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). There are millions and millions and trillions of living entities, and each heart, He is sitting there. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). He is managing like that.

So if we think that He is a controller like us, that is our misconception. He is controller. There is controller. With unlimited knowledge, with unlimited assistants, with unlimited potencies He is managing. These impersonalists, they cannot think of that a person can be so unlimitedly powerful. Therefore they become impersonalist. They cannot think of. The impersonalists, they cannot imagine... They imagine, "When one is person, he is a person like me. I cannot do this. Therefore He cannot do." Therefore they are mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). They are comparing Kṛṣṇa with themself. As he is a person, similarly, Kṛṣṇa is a person. He does not know. The Vedas inform that "Although He is person, He is maintaining all unlimited persons." That they do not know. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). That one singular person, He is maintaining many millions, many millions, trillions of persons. We are each, every one, we are person. I am person. You are person. The ant is person. The cat is person. Dog is person, and the insect is person. The trees are person. Everyone is person. Everyone is person. And there is another person: that is God, Kṛṣṇa. That one person is maintaining all these varieties of millions and trillions of persons. This is the Vedic in... Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). This is the information.

So Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ...
(BG 10.8)

Therefore a devotee, when he understands thoroughly that "Here is one Supreme Person, who is the leader, who is the controller, who is the maintainer of everything," then he surrenders unto Him and becomes His devotee. You see? We, Kṛṣṇa's devotee, we are not fools and rascals. We have got our reason. We have got our philosophy. When we know that Kṛṣṇa is actually the supreme controller, the Supreme Person, the supreme maintainer, then we surrender. Then we become Kṛṣṇa's devotee. It is not blind. It is not blind. We are strongly convinced that that one person is the Supreme Person. Therefore we surrender. We are not blind followers.

Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravar..., iti matvā budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). Budhā. Budhā means one who has understood thoroughly. So therefore he can become... One who has understood thoroughly Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller, he is guru. He is guru. Otherwise one cannot be guru. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). Who can (be) guru? Guru is not artificial thing, "Guru Mahārāja," "this Mahārāja...," no. One who has firmly understood that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything, He is the Supreme Person—nobody can, I mean to say, remove him from that firm convictional position—then he is guru. Otherwise he is not guru. Guru is not so easy thing. Budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). One who has understood Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the supreme controller, the supreme maintainer, the Supreme Person, everything, only one, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)—that is guru. But otherwise, he is not guru, one who has not understood Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirms, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). One who has understood Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller, the Supreme Person, the supreme maintainer, and everything the supreme, ultimate, then he can become guru. Otherwise, don't try to become guru. Impersonalists, half-understood, partial-understood, he cannot become guru. This is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's formula. Therefore, first of all try to understand Kṛṣṇa. You will understand in such a way that you can refute all others' argument, all others' opposition. There are so many opposing elements. Then you are guru. Otherwise you cannot become a guru. Guru is not so teeny thing or trifle thing that everyone becomes Guru Mahārāja. No. That is not guru. Sa mahātmā... Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).

So their theory, this atheistic theory, is aparaspara-sambhūtam. It has taken by mechanical arrangement. Mechanical... Kim anyat kāma-haitukam (BG 16.8). Kāma. Just like kāma—a man, a woman becomes lusty, and there is sex, and there is production. So they say like that. The production is like that. There is no other plan. But there is a big plan. That they do not know. The plan is: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7). That is plan. But these rascal, this atheist class, they say, kim anyat kāma-haitukam: "Only lusty desires, that is the only reason. That is the only cause." The atheist class think like that, that "This birth is taking place due to our lusty desires, but we do not want to take responsibility. Then kill him." What is that? Therefore, they are making this abortion, killing of the child, as legal. The kāma... "We had some lusty desires, and we got it, but we don't want it. Kill it." That's all. This is going on. This is atheism. But it is not that. That child has come. It is a living entity. It desired a certain thing, and therefore he has given chance to take birth as human being or as cat, as dog. Kāma-haitukam.

Then why one is born as a cat, one is born as a dog, one is born as a rich man's son, one who is born as..., so many varieties? Why? If kāma-haitukam, then why not one variety? Where is the question of varieties? What is the answer? Why there are so many varieties? Everyone wants to take birth in rich family, in high family. Why one is born as a street dog and there is no food, and crying, barking, and somebody is capturing and eating and no protection? Why? Why kāma-haitukam? The dog is also born by the lusty desires of the male dog and the female dog, but why he is dog, and why he is such a rich man's son? Why? What is the answer? If kāma-haitukam, lusty desire, is the only cause for birth, production, then why there is one production street dog, cat or pig or a worm in the stool, and why one is born as demigod, as Indra or Candra, Varuṇa? Why? A Brahmā? Who makes this arrangement? Why one is put into such exalted position, and why one is put into that abominable position? What is the answer? Kāma-haitukam.

Trivikrama: Past activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot say it's by chance. And who is making this chance arrangement, that one is born so exalted, one is born so low? Then again, we have to accept somebody. So these are all foolish theories, "By chance, by kāma-haitukam." No. There is great arrangement. As the same... Just like the traffic control. There is a very big, great arrangement behind this. It is not by chance. By chance there has been not line, and they pass the car in certain line. No, it is not chance. How you can say "chance"? (devotees offer obeisances as altar curtains open) So these theories are made by the demons. Read the purport.

Nitāi: "The demoniac conclude that the world is a phantasmagoria. There is no cause, no effect, no controller, no purpose: everything is unreal. They say that this cosmic manifestation arises due to chance material actions and reactions. They do not think that the world was created by God for a certain purpose. They have their own theory: that the world has come about in its own way and that there is no reason to believe that there is a God behind it. For them there is no difference between spirit and matter, and they do not accept the Supreme Spirit. Everything is matter only, and the whole cosmos is supposed to be a mass of ignorance."

Prabhupāda: Therefore they say chemical evolution. They cannot think of spirit. Go on.

Nitāi: "According to them, everything is void, and whatever manifestation exists is due to our ignorance in perception. They take it for granted that all manifestation of diversity is a display of ignorance. Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream. And so, instead of acquiring knowledge, they become more and more implicated in their dreamland. They conclude that as a child is simply the result of sexual intercourse between man and woman, this world is born without any soul. For them it is only a combination of matter that has produced the living entities, and there is no question of the existence of the soul. As many living creatures come out from the perspiration and from a dead body without any cause, similarly, the whole living world has come out from the material combinations of the cosmic manifestation. Therefore, material nature is the cause of this manifestation, and there is no other cause. They do not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10): 'Under My direction the whole material world is moving.' In other words, amongst the demons, there is no perfect knowledge of the creation of this world; every one of them has a particular theory of his own. According to them, one interpretation of the scriptures is as good as another, for they do not believe in a standard understanding of the scriptural injunctions."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is demonic. Now any question? (pause) This demonic conclusion will not help us. Then we shall remain in ignorance; there is no knowledge. Any question? Can you put any question on behalf of the demons? (laughter)

Trivikrama: Well, I am very expert at the demon mentality, but I'm afraid you've destroyed all arguments that I might put forth.

Prabhupāda: Any of our friends, Japanese friends here?

Japanese man: Yes, I have one question. You mentioned that we can hear a car from outside, but we cannot see car. But...

Prabhupāda: No, we can see car. But just like here we are sitting. We do not see the car, but the sound is there, but you conclude that there is a car. So therefore seeing is not always the sound reasoning. Even without seeing, we can conclude there is car. That is my point.

Japanese man: And what is the example of sound of God in this world?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Japanese man: Just like your example of God and God's sound in this world.

Prabhupāda: Sound is the original ingredient of creation.

Trivikrama: He's asking how can we see God in this world. Although we can't see Him, how can we...?

Japanese man: Can hear His sound.

Prabhupāda: You can see. You can hear the sound, "Kṛṣṇa." Are you not hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa? So that is a question of realization. You go on hearing, hearing. The child cannot understand what is the sound. The sound is the same. The car is going on. But his father can understand that with this sound this car is going on. But child cannot understand. So you begin hearing, then gradually your ignorance will be cleansed, and then you understand that the sound is for car. Therefore you have to begin to hear the sound. Everyone is hearing, but those who are not experienced, they cannot understand that this sound is of the car. But the... One understands or not understands, that doesn't matter. But the sound is of the car, that's a fact. So those who are experienced, they are understanding; those who are not experienced, they do not understand. That is the difference. It is the difference of experience. But the sound is of the car—that is a fact. Similarly, the Hare Kṛṣṇa sound is God. Those who are advanced, they can understand. And those who are not yet advanced, by hearing, hearing, they will understand. You want to see God. That is your idea?

Japanese man: No. I don't know if I ever see God or not.

Prabhupāda: No, you have not seen, but what is your desire? You want to see?

Japanese man: I want to at least hear God in this world, and I was wondering what is...

Prabhupāda: So God is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. Just like reading, Kṛṣṇa is speaking. So hear it, God speaking, the sound. The devotees are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa; that is God, that sound is God, śabda-brahma. This is the way. And if you want to see God, you can see also. That is prescribed here. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ (BG 7.8): "I am the sunlight and moonlight." So you see the sunlight, moonlight, and you see God. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the sunlight. I am this moonlight." Then if you want to see Kṛṣṇa, you see the... Sunlight you can see very easily. Is it very difficult for you? Then Kṛṣṇa says, He personally says, that "I am the sunlight." You see the sunlight. You go on sunlight, seeing the sunlight, and you just take the words of Bhagavad-gītā, "Now here is Kṛṣṇa." Then you will understand, "Here is God." And factually you will see.

If you think of only the sunlight, moonlight as instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā—Kṛṣṇa says, "I am sun..."—then one day very soon you will understand. You will see Kṛṣṇa in sunlight. It is not bogus thing, that Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the sunlight." He is. And He asks you to see. You see minutely, and you'll see Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difficulty? You want to see Kṛṣṇa. You see Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa advises. Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): "I am the taste of the water," or any liquid substance, "The taste I am." Now, whenever you drink water or drink any liquid thing or milk, the taste... There is... Everything has got a different taste. And if you think, as Kṛṣṇa advises you, that "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," then on that taste you will find Kṛṣṇa. You begin as Kṛṣṇa says. Then you will see Kṛṣṇa. There is no difficulty. There are so many examples given by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā. (aside:) Find out that chapter.

raso 'ham apsu kaunteya
prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ
praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu
paurusaṁ...
(BG 7.8)

Trivikrama: He says that "Of purifiers, I am the wind."

Prabhupāda: So many. Any one of them you take and meditate upon this, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa," you will find Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, as it is available. Read it.

Nitāi:

raso 'ham apsu kaunteya
prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ
praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu
śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu
(BG 7.8)

Prabhupāda: Śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu... (break) You try to see Kṛṣṇa as advised by Him. Don't try to see Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Then you will never find. You try to see Kṛṣṇa... Why they say that "We have not seen God"? The God is represented in so many ways. You take God's advice and try to see Him as He advises. Then you will see God. That's a fact. I do not... Why do they say that "We have not seen God"? You are seeing always God. You are seeing the sunlight. You are seeing the moonlight. You are smelling the good flavor of flower. You are reading, if you are scholar, you are reading Vedas. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ... He says, "This oṁ," praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu, "in the Vedic mantra, the oṁkāra is I am." Then, pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu. Any wonderful work, if somebody has done, that is Kṛṣṇa.

So you have to see Kṛṣṇa in this way, as Kṛṣṇa advises. Then very soon you will see Kṛṣṇa. There is no question of not seeing Him. You will see in every moment. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva (Bs. 5.38), twenty-four hours. Those who are actually Kṛṣṇa devotees, they are seeing Kṛṣṇa. They are seeing nothing but Kṛṣṇa. There is no question of not seeing Him, but you have to adopt the method how to see Him. And that is given there. You adopt it, and you will see Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? Any other question? This Bhagavad-gītā, if you study minutely—this is the science of God—you will see God, you will see Kṛṣṇa, and you will understand everything. Therefore we are present... But if you misinterpret, if you pollute it by your own interpretation, then you will not see.

These rascals, they are simply polluting. Because they are not coming in paramparā system, everyone is trying to become a very learned scholar, very learned leader—but they are rascals. Actually they are rascals, because they cannot see. Recently, what was the Gandhi's statement? That "I do not believe that there was Kṛṣṇa ever lived." That's it, "ever lived." "Kṛṣṇa is of my imagination." He said like that. This is going on. All the ācāryas, they accepted. Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Person. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Your personality nobody can understand." There is person before him, and he is such a big man, he says that "It is imagination." This is going on. If... Science should be as other such study. Two plus two, mathematic calculation, that is four. You cannot say it is five or three by interpretation or by imagination. Two plus two is equal to four. You accept or not accept; that is a different thing. So it is a science. You have to accept according to the direction given. Then you will find the real thing. So any other question? Study by questioning. Paripraśnena, tad viddhi paripraśnena, paripraśnena sevayā, praṇipātena (BG 4.34).

Japanese man: I always want to ask whether if you met demigods or Indra or Brahmā or...

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: He wants to know if you met any of the demigods—Brahmā, Indra...

Prabhupāda: Then what benefit will be for you? Suppose if I met, now what benefit you will derive out of it?

Paramahaṁsa: (explaining to guest) How will that help you to know?

Prabhupāda: If I say, "Yes, I have met," that what benefit you will get? Why you are asking this question? That you do not know.

Japanese man: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are asking?

Japanese man: Maybe sense gratification. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What is that? Maybe...?

Trivikrama: Maybe sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is sense gratification.

Japanese man: But actually, other devotees sometimes tell me that you met Indra or...

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have met Indra or I have not met Indra. So if I met Indra, what benefit you get? And if I did not meet Indra, what is your loss? That is my question. (laughter) Then why do you ask this question? You have no profit, no loss. Any other question? Put some intelligent questions, then we can understand that you are studying really. (break)

Trivikrama: Surely there would be some benefit for him.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Trivikrama: If Indra met you, then there would be some benefit for him. (break)

Prabhupāda: Our proposition is that suppose if you know the president of Japan... Who is the president? A king or president here?

Japanese man: King, emperor.

Prabhupāda: If you know the emperor, you can... Then what is the use of knowing the constable?

Trivikrama: (explaining) You understand? If you know the prime minister or the head man, then the less important man is not necessary to know. So because Śrīla Prabhupāda knows Kṛṣṇa, it is not important...

Prabhupāda: So what is the use of meeting others? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). They go to other demigods, to (indistinct), for some benefit, their knowledge being lost, hṛta-jñānāḥ. Just like if I want some benefit in your Japanese state and if I know the emperor, I can ask him, "I want it." Why shall I go to some departmental manager? What is the use? Let them become very big man in their department, but if I want to take some benefit, then I can... If I am known to the emperor, I can ask him that "I want this." He will immediately give me. Why shall I go to the departmental manager? They are subordinate.

Therefore it is said, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). We do not disrespect anyone in the government service, but if I know the supreme person in the government, why shall I go and beg from the lower-grade officers? If I want something, I can ask the supreme. Is it all right or not? Huh? What is the use? They may come to see me, "Oh, he is known to the emperor." They may come to see me. I cannot go to see them. And we have no want. Why shall I see the demigods? We have no want. Kṛṣṇa knows. What is our business? Our business is to spread glories of Kṛṣṇa. We are directly in service of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is wanted, He will supply. Why shall I go to somebody? It is His business. So for a devotee, there is no need of meeting. We have all respect for them, but there is no need of meeting any demigod. They are all servants of Kṛṣṇa. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya (CC Adi 5.142). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ... He is the supreme controller. So why should we go to the subordinate controller? Why should we go? Is there any necessity? You do not follow me, what I say?

Trivikrama: (explaining) Is there any necessity to go? Do we need to go to Indra?

Japanese man: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? There is no need. Why should I bother my head for meeting the demigods? We have no business. We know the Supreme, and the Supreme knows what I want. So I haven't got to ask even the Supreme that "This thing I want." No, there is no need. He knows. He will supply because I am engaged in His business. What is our business? Why we are bothering so much in this old age? The only business is that people may know Kṛṣṇa, the supreme controller. That is our business. We have no other business. We don't want anything, either from Kṛṣṇa or from demigod or anyone. Our only business is, as advised by Caitanya Mahā... Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). This is our business. We are carrying this Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and we are trying to educate people that "Here is real knowledge. Take it." This is our business. That means Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Īśvaraḥ param... That is our only business. That is our only ambition, that people may know that Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord, that's all. We have no other business.

So for that purpose Kṛṣṇa wants. Therefore He comes. He teaches Bhagavad-gītā, that He is the Supreme. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhan... (BG 7.7). He wants to... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). He wants to spread this knowledge. We are spreading the same knowledge. We are helping Kṛṣṇa. Not helping—we are serving Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu comes for this mission. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). He preaches. What is Kṛṣṇa and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission? He simply preached Kṛṣṇa, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Understand Kṛṣṇa." So our only business is to spread that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So Kṛṣṇa is very, very pleased, that "What I want to do—I go there, incarnate and spread—that he is doing." Therefore we are already in the direct service of the Lord, so we have nothing to ask from anybody else. If we ask anything from anybody, that is for his benefit, not for our benefit.

Therefore they are accusing us of frauding, cheating, but they do not understand. Even if we take some money from others by so-called fraud or cheat, but it goes to Kṛṣṇa... Just like Gurukṛpā Mahārāja. If you say, if he's taking by this way or that way, but what he is doing? He is not smoking with that money. He is not drinking. He is sending to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is giving the best service. So people may say, "Nonsense people. They're doing this, doing that." But he is giving the best service to Kṛṣṇa because he is not accepting a farthing out of this. And these so-called worldly, honest men, they may be very honest, moral, but they are taking everything for their sense gratification. They are dishonest. They are the greatest fraud. Kṛṣṇa's money they are taking for their own satisfaction. The greatest fraud. Stena eva sa ucyate. What is that? Ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. Bhuñjate te aghaṁ pāpāḥ (BG 3.13). Stena eva sa ucyate (BG 3.12). What is that? Everyone is thief. Everyone is taking Kṛṣṇa's money for his sense gratification, and they are advertising they are very moral. What is that?

Nitāi:

iṣṭān bhogān hi vo devā
dāsyante yajña-bhāvitāḥ
tair dattān apradāyaibhyo
yo bhuṅkte stena eva saḥ
(BG 3.12)

Prabhupāda: Sa ucyate. No? No. Saḥ. Stena eva saḥ.

Nitāi: Stena eva saḥ.

Prabhupāda: What is the...?

Nitāi: "In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña, sacrifice, supply all necessities to man. But one who enjoys these gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief."

Prabhupāda: So anyone who is simply exploiting the resources of nature, the so-called industrialist, others, they are taking all goods from Kṛṣṇa. Now, suppose you are making some machine. In making machine, you want the iron. But have you produced the iron? Wherefrom you have got the iron?

Trivikrama: From the nature.

Prabhupāda: From the mine. So who has created mine? Your father has created this mine, that you are taking this iron? That means you are thief. You are thief. The iron is not your property. The iron is there already. If it is already there, you must conclude it is somebody's property. So you are taking it away without asking the proprietor. Then are you not thief? What is the meaning of stealing? If you take something without asking the proprietor, that is stealing. So the iron is there; you are taking from the mine, iron. You may convert into various things. That is another thing. But the original iron, to whom it belongs? Kṛṣṇa declares in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor." So He is the proprietor. Sarva-loka, all planets. So in this planet, when you find this iron, then whose property it is? When you find it, you must know it belongs to somebody. And who is that person? Without asking that person, without taking permission of that person, if you take away, are you not thief?

The so-called civilization, they are all set of thieves, rogues. And they are formulating rules and regulation for others' fraud, those who are devotees. They are themselves fraud. Everything belongs... Suppose you have got this iron - stealing from the mine, Kṛṣṇa's property. Then if by some way or other I take your iron and give it back to Kṛṣṇa, so I am fraud or you are fraud? You do not possess anything. But you are claiming that you are proprietor of this thing, that thing, which you have taken by stealing. And if your stolen property, I take it from you and return it to Kṛṣṇa, then who is fraud? You are fraud or I am fraud? Who is fraud? But they have made their own laws. They will steal, they will plunder, and still, they are honest gentlemen.

Just like the income tax department. They will take away all your hard-earned money, and they will enjoy themselves, and they are government officer, that's all. And if you keep money, "Oh, you have kept property without knowledge of government. Take it away." This is going on. So in this Kali-yuga it will happen so. The some rogues and frauds, they will combine together and make a government and take others' property, and they will remain honest, and he is fraud. That's all. This is Kali-yuga. The combined company of frauds, they will remain honest, and those who are servant of Kṛṣṇa, they are frauds. Bultaka jivi rama (?). Just the opposite. What can be done? This is the Kali-yuga.

Anardhena nyāya-rahitam (?). In this Kali-yuga, if you have no money, then you will never get justice, because you have to bribe up to the high-court judge. That is going on. At least in India it is going on. You bribe, and you take favorable judgment. Is it not? Yes. And that is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anardhena nyāya-rahitam. Everywhere you have to bribe. That means you require money. So unless you pay money, you will never get justice. This is Kali-yuga. Therefore a poor man cannot get justice. He cannot bribe. The other party will... If he has got money, he will bribe. He will get justice, and he will suffer.

Just like Gandhi, he refused to take justice from the British court. That was one of the items. He said that "There is no justice. So we shall deny to take any judgment from the British Court." That was his, one of the items. He never... When he was prosecuted, he never defended. He said, "Why shall I defend? There is no justice here. Why shall I spend my money for defending? No, you can do whatever you like. You are in power." Gandhi did always like that. "Here is no justice, so why shall I plead for justice?" That was Gandhi's philosophy, noncooperation. Whenever he was arrested, he will simply stand. That's all. Of course, he was given a seat. Such a big man, the court would offer him a seat. But he will never plead yes or no. "No, whatever you like, you can do. I don't expect justice from you." That was Gandhi's... He'll never plead. And all his followers did that. Therefore they were all sent to jail. And by going to jail they got svarāja. And he declared, jail svarāja ke mandira hai: "If you want to get svarāja, independence, you must be prepared to go to jail."

Therefore at the present moment, all the government men, their first qualification is whether he went to jail during this movement. Yes. The more one suffered imprisonment, he is given more exalted post. Not only jail; in the jail they were beaten very severely. Some of them were given poison. So many big, big leaders, they died just coming out of jail. They were given slow poison. C. R. Dasa, Jyotindra Mohan, Sen Gupta. And the Gandhi, therefore, he would not take any food from the jail. He would carry his one goat, and take the milk of the goat and some cāpāṭis made, two cāpāṭis and a little peanuts. That's all. He would not accept anything from the jail. Because he knew that "These men can give me poison." Actually, they gave so many people slow poison, and they died. Just after coming back from the jail they died.

(yawns)

This is the world. It is going on. It is simply full of suffering. Simply we are after this phantasmagoria, that our running after something which is actually not fact; it is illusion. So this is the life in the material world. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to save the person from this illusory life of material existence. Let them come to Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement—the greatest beneficial movement. We don't want to keep these people in ignorance. They are in illusion, ignorance. So our business is to enlighten him. Kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra: "You are sleeping. Get up, take this opportunity and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Go back to home. Give up this nonsense place, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), full of miseries, cheating." This is our movement. The people do not understand. But our predecessors' order is that if you can save even one man, that is fulfillment of your mission. That we are trying. That's all. (break) (end)