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731206 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

731206MW-LOS ANGELES - December 06, 1973 - 56:42 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . from your audience?

Hṛdayānanda: Well, one of the main things is that they say: "Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness may be very nice, but many other things are also very nice, and everyone says that, 'I am right.' "

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Nice . . . suppose if there is a nice staircase.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that one, two, three, four, five, six, seven stairs. Still, one who has gone to the topmost nice stair, he has to be considered the topmost.

Hṛdayānanda: But then . . .

Prabhupāda: Everything may be nice. Because Kṛṣṇa says, mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ (BG 4.11): "Everyone is trying to approach Me," but one who has approached two steps, he cannot say that he's equal to the person who has approached hundred steps.

Hṛdayānanda: Well, then they will say that everyone . . . the Christians would say that they're on the top step, and the Buddhists say they're on the top step.

Prabhupāda: No, they may say, but if Kṛṣṇa is God, what He says, that we'll have to accept. What Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior than Me." That you have to accept. Everyone will say: "I am very good." But is that the fact, that everyone is very good? There is comparative, superlative degrees. Just like shopkeepers, they say: "All my goods are good." They are competition. One has to judge. That comparative study . . . what the highest Buddha philosophy? Ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā, nonviolence. That is our preliminary study. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). There are many other things after ahiṁsā. They do not know this.

Hṛdayānanda: There's another argument.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: Another argument.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: Many times, the professors, they say that, "If God . . . if God were actually all . . . all-good and all-perfect, then when He created us, we would also be all-good . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are contaminated. You are all-good. That's a fact. Because you are part and parcel of God, you cannot be bad. But you are contaminated.

Hṛdayānanda: Well, they say that, "Even . . . even if I have the potential . . . even to say that I ha . . ."

Prabhupāda: You have got the potential. That's it.

Hṛdayānanda: But if I say that . . . if I, I'm originally in the spiritual world, but even the potential to fall down is an imperfection in the creation.

Prabhupāda: No, potential does not fall down. Just like a child has got the potency to pass the M.A. examination. So he has to be educated. If you don't educate him, he'll remain a foolish child. So we are educating to develop that potentiality.

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya
(CC Madhya 22.107)

They, that potentiality is eternal. God is eternal. We are eternal. Our relationship eternal. Everything is eternal. But because we are small, minute fragments, sometimes we fall down.

Hṛdayānanda: They say: "God should have . . . God should have created us so that we . . ."

Prabhupāda: Why you should dictate God? God has created perfectly. He has given you independence. You fall down. It is your fault. God has made you perfect, given you independence. But if you misuse your independence, you fall down. Just like government gives everyone opportunity. Why do you become criminal and go to the jail? That is your fault.

Hṛdayānanda: They say that God should have created us so that we . . .

Prabhupāda: Why "should have created"? He has created already perfect. Because you are perfect, therefore you have got the independence to misuse. You are not a dead stone. That is perfection. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). You can go anywhere, sarva-ga. You can go to the Vaikuṇṭha. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can go to the higher planets. You can go to the hell. When you go to the hell, it is your choice. God has given you all perfection.

Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Everything is complete, perfect, and because you are perfect, you have got the independence. But misusing that independence, you are imperfect. Again, reviving your independence, you can become perfect, although you are imperfect now. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means raising the imperfect to the perfect platform. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other fools, they say: "We are perfect now." In a fallen condition also, they're thinking perfect. That is māyā. Āsurīṁ rākṣasīṁ caiva mohinīṁ prakṛtiṁ śritāḥ (BG 9.12). Kṛṣṇa has made you perfect. There is no doubt about it. Just like some of our student, all of a sudden, they deviate, go away. So what is that? Our movement is imperfect, or he's imperfect?

Hṛdayānanda: He's imperfect.

Prabhupāda: He's imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that, "This is nice," and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness.

Hṛdayānanda: So in other words, these, uh, the people that argue like that, they, they actually are lazy, don't want to surrender to God and they blame God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they have become imperfect, therefore they are blaming God. "God is good"—they forget this. That is their imperfectness. One side, they say: "God is good." Still, they're blaming God. What is this nonsense? If He's God, God is good, how can you blame Him? God is good; in all circumstances, He's good. That is the meaning of good. Good does not mean that one time you are good and next time you are bad.

Karandhara: Just like the criminals blame the government for being in the prison house.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is natural. (laughs) Yes. Surāśū-sākṣimata. Surāśū-sākṣimata. In the liquor shop, so there was some trouble. So he went to court. He went to court. So the court asked him, "Where is your witness?" So he brought one witness, drunkard. You see? Surāśū-sākṣimata. So that is māyā, ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8), misusing power and blaming God, "Why God . . .?" God has made everything. Just like here, it is made not to move. Stay. But we are better than this. Is it not? It cannot move.

So God has made this also. But because we can move, we are better than this. And if, if, if they say that, "God, why He has made me to commit mistake?" this rascal does not understand that that is freedom. You, why don't you take the right one? God says, "This is right." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Why don't you take it? And still, how you can say God is bad? What is the argument?

Umāpati: Well, the argument is that if God is so all-powerful, why does He even let me fall?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Umāpati: If God is so powerful, why does He let me fall? Why doesn't He save me, save me from my own foolishness? Why doesn't He . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes, He's saving you, but you don't carry His order.

Umāpati: Yes, but it's not recognized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I say: "Chant sixteen rounds." If you do not do it, what can I do? That is your fault.

Satsvarūpa: If God were to force us, there'd be no love.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. No. Force is not good. Force is there. Force is there. The māyā is another force.

Prajāpati: There's a large segment of the population today who say: "We only speak about God in terms of our own relationships with each other." So one group, they say: "This is all male chauvinism, to say God is a male. Actually, we are saying now the women should be elevated, so God is woman for us." They say like that.

Prabhupāda: God . . . but, uh . . . well, that's all right. God is male and female both. God, our God, sometimes He takes the form of female, Mohinī-mūrti. Mohinī-mūrti. But comparatively studying, God is puruṣa, male.

Umāpati: He's always a potency.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. He is potent.

Umāpati: He's always the supreme potency.

Prabhupāda: He is potential. That means you manufacture God. Sometimes you manufacture God as male, sometimes you manufacture God is female. Is it not? Is it not your theory? As you say: "Now we accept female as God," that means you manufacture God. Is it not?

Prajāpati: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And what you manufacture, is that God?

Prajāpati: They see . . .

Prabhupāda: What do you manufacture? You are imperfect. So whatever you manufacture, that is imperfect. How it can be God?

Prajāpati: Well, God is simply the way we view each other, relationship with each other, as the . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, that is your manufacture. Why do you say like that, each other's relationship? The relationship already there. What is to make new there? The already . . . God is great, and we are small. The relationship is already there. So how you can make another relationship? God is great. Is it not? God is great. Is it not?

Prajāpati: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And then what you are? You are small.

Prajāpati: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So the relationship already there. So what relationship you are creating again? It is already there. God is great; you are small. The relationship is already there. He's creator; you are the created. He's the predominator, you are predominated. He's the master; you are the servant. This is already there. And what new thing you can create? This is already there. He's the master, and He's . . . why you are covering? Because God has given this season.

So you are dependent. You have to cover. You cannot make it immediately sun shining summer season. That is not within your power. Therefore He's great, you are small. This relationship is already there. Therefore He's master; you are servant. That is the real eternal relationship. What new relationship you can create? It is not possi . . . it is not possible. He's creator. Are you creator? Can you create anything? Then how you can be master? You are always servant. So relationship is already there. How you can change it? That is speculation.

Karandhara: Actually, that philosophy is just atheism.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: That philosophy is atheism.

Prabhupāda: Atheism, yes. Atheism.

Karandhara: They're not talking about God at all. They're just talking about something they're searching after—sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Yes. "Now we shall create female as God." What power you have got? God is already God. You cannot create God a female or dog. You can create anything, as you . . . by mental speculation, but that is not a fact.

Umāpati: They say, "Man was made in the image of God," and now women are saying . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Umāpati: They say: "Man was made in the image of God," and now women are saying, "Women are made in the image of God. Therefore God is female," and that is their logic.

Prabhupāda: No, no, man or woman, you cannot create God. That is the first . . . (indistinct) . . . God is not your creation; you are creation of God. You cannot say: "God should be like this. God should be like that." That is nonsense. God is not under your dictation; you are under the dictation of God. That is God. If you manufacture, if you dictate, then how He is God? He's your dog. Just like a dog. He dictates. He abides by your order. He's not God; he's dog. What is the scientist says? Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientist says that God didn't . . . one of the astronomers said that "If I were present at the time of creation . . ."

Prabhupāda: Ah, (laughs) you were present. Therefore you are a rascal. You were not allowed to (be) present. Therefore God is great. You are a rascal; God did not allow you to be present there. Now you are lamenting. Therefore God is great.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Because God doesn't lament; he laments.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God did not allow you. Therefore you are under control of God. So you are foolish rascal. God did not allow you. Therefore God is great.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.

Prajāpati: One very prominent philosopher, theologian, today, named Martin Buber, he says we cannot talk about God as "He," describing so many attributes to Him as something other. He is the eternal . . .

Prabhupāda: That, that we accept, that ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Brs. 1.2.234): we cannot speculate about God with our imperfect senses. But that does not mean we should not know God. We cannot speculate, but there is process of knowing God. That is from God. When He says: "I am like this," that's all. You have to accept that. You cannot speculate. You cannot create. Just like a big man, a big master, nobody knows how many millions of dollars he has got. They are speculating. His servants are speculating, "Master may have so many millions, must have so many . . ." But that is all imperfect. When the master says: "I have got so much, so many million," that is perfect. All other speculation, they're all imperfect.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are not speculating. We are accepting God the authority, and He's speaking about Himself. We are accepting. That is our position. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ āsti (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior authority than Me." We accept it. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34): "You always think of Me. Become my devotee," we become. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are imperfect, but we accept the perfect; therefore we are perfect. We are imperfect. We don't say that we are God, or perfect. We are imperfect. But we accept the perfect version of the perfect; therefore we are perfect.

Hṛdayānanda: Well, then again they would say that many people say that they have perfect knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: Many, many different people say that they have the perfect information about God.

Prabhupāda: If they have, that's all right. But it should be tested whether they have got.

Hṛdayānanda: Tasted?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whether you have got perfect information or I have got perfect information, that is to be tested. I have no objection if somebody says that, "I have got perfection, perfect information," but I'll have to see whether you have got. But I have no objection if you say. That is alright. Because if I have got perfect information, you may also have. There is no objection. But I have to test whether. Anybody can say: "I have passed M.A. examination." But I have to test whether he's actually M.A.

Hṛdayānanda: So who shall decide what the criteria is, to test?

Prabhupāda: God will decide. The God's book is there, Bhagavad-gītā. Just like two lawyers fighting. Who will decide? The law book will decide.

Umāpati: How will the judgment be rendered?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Umāpati: How will the judgement be rendered . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Umāpati: . . . they would ask.

Prabhupāda: Judgment will be rendered by law book.

Hṛdayānanda: They say they have their own law book.

Prabhupāda: No, that is kick on their face. (laughter) "You are rascals." As soon as he says, "I have got my law books," he's a rascal. He's a rascal. Kick on his face with boot.

Karandhara: In the West, they don't accept the Bhagavad-gītā as anything but a piece of mythology or . . .

Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept something else. He has to accept something. He may accept Bible. They may not accept Bhagavad-gītā; they must accept Bible. But you have to . . . then you have to lead your life according to the version of the Bible. The version of the Bible is that, "Thou shall not kill." You are killing, therefore you are not . . . not followers of Bible. You are rascal.

Karandhara: Well, their process is to discredit all scriptures so that they don't have to follow anything.

Prabhupāda: Then you are discredited. Who follows your version? If you discredit others' version, who follows your version? Who are you? If you don't accept other authority, and who is going to accept your authority? Why shall I? You cannot become authority that, "I don't accept any authority." I have to follow that? Then you become authority.

Sudāmā: They also argue, though, that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, to understand. If he says that "I don't accept any authority," that means he becomes authority. I have to follow him.

Hṛdayānanda: Then they say it's a, it's just like a stand-off, then.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: That . . . then they say: "Well, it's a stand-off, that I say I'm right and that you say you are right. So it cannot be . . ."

Prabhupāda: But that, therefore there is confusion. The world position is like that. Now it is confusion. Everything is . . .

Bali-mardana: Conflict.

Prabhupāda: . . . in confusion. That is chaotic condition. Every citizen says: "I don't accept government law. I have got my own law." It is confusion.

Bali-mardana: We can say: "Where is the result of your . . ."

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bali-mardana: We can say: "Where is the result of your belief?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: Confusion.

Prabhupāda: Confusion is not . . . chaotic condition, confusion, is not proper stage. That is a state of suffering. That is the position at the present moment. Otherwise, why they are fighting, nation to nation, man to man, group to group, community to community, diplomat to dip . . .? They're simply fighting like cats and dogs. This is not perfect society. Simply ca . . . they say dogs. They can simply make barking, "Rowf! Rowf! Rowf! Rowf!" That is not perfect society. Human society should be sober. That is Vedic civilization.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But one should follow the standard morality. When that standard set is lacking or it fails to understand, then people try to speculate their own thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Nobody's following any standard. Just like these Western people, mostly Christians. It is clearly stated in the Bible, "Thou shall not kill," and they're simply killing. Their only business is killing.

Bali-mardana: And divorce.

Prabhupāda: And divorce.

Bali-mardana: It says: "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

Prabhupāda: So these rascals, how do they claim Christian? Eh? What do you think? They're not even category . . . in the category of dogs, cats, and they're claiming that "We are follower of Lord Jesus Christ."

Sudāmā: But they also argue, Prabhupāda, that that law, "Thou shalt not kill," "I am not killing. The others are killing. But I am not."

Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that very good argument? "I am not killing."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he's eating.

Prabhupāda: "I am not killing the snake. My stick is killing." Is that very good argument? (laughter) These rascals, all these rascals, they avoid. "I am not killing. I am not responsible. My, my, this stick has killed." Just see. If you go to the court, "Sir, I have not killed, my stick has killed . . ." Just see how rascal they are.

Dr. Wolfe: It is a question whether this "Thou shalt not kill" does not also include all our animal brothers and sisters.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Wolfe: I think it should also include that. Because "Thou shalt not kill" is just not kill creatures, not only men. But apart from that, they do not even follow it where men come in. They kill. They do.

Prabhupāda: I do not follow what . . .

Sudāmā: He's saying . . .

Hṛdayānanda: He's agreeing.

Sudāmā: He's agreeing that, "Thou shalt not kill" should also include all animals.

Dr. Wolfe: It should.

Prabhupāda: Yes, "Thou shall not kill" means everything.

Karandhara: They say that it does not include animals.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: They say: "That does not include animals."

Prabhupāda: Why? Why they say?

Karandhara: The animals have no soul.

Prabhupāda: Why they say? That is rascaldom. Therefore they are rascals. They do not know.

Sudāmā: But they say: "We are more superior than the animals. So therefore the animal's business is just to give us food."

Prabhupāda: That, then, then, the superior nation can kill inferior nation. Why you have made the United Nation?

Karandhara: It just encourages animalism, animal dominance.

Prabhupāda: Animalism. That is . . . then it becomes "Might is right," not "Right is might."

Umāpati: In the Bible, Prabhupāda, there is a statement that many people follow, saying that, where Jehovah says: "Man shall have dominion over the animals, over the fishes and . . ."

Prabhupāda: That is already there. But that does not mean man should kill them.

Dr. Wolfe: And Jesus did not reverse it.

Hṛdayānanda: Just like a man has dominion over his children.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A father, mother, has dominion over the children. Does it mean that he shall kill him?

Umāpati: And eat them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all rascals.

Hṛdayānanda: Then they will argue that we are, we are killing plants and grains, things like that.

Prabhupāda: We are not killing anything. We are not killing anything. We devotees, we don't kill anything. Do you know that, or not? We don't kill anything.

Hṛdayānanda: They say we eat vegetables, they will say.

Prabhupāda: No vegetables, we don't kill. We don't kill.

Umāpati: Well, vegetables are living entities also?

Prabhupāda: Yes, but we don't kill them. We take their fruits and flowers. That does not mean it is killed. And that also, we take it for Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). So if there is any responsibility, that is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. I am . . . I am not responsible.

Hṛdayānanda: Ah, I see.

Karandhara: Fruits, vegetables and grains can be harvested without killing the plant.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Yes, it is not killing. Grains, after grains are ripe, the tree automatically dies.

Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it so that we do not kill voluntarily? Because involuntarily, of course, we kill with every moment. We kill all the bacteria and we kill all the microbes and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Wolfe: And we cannot help doing that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to become servant of Kṛṣṇa; you are not responsible. Just like government servant, police, and military kills, but he's not responsible. He's not responsible. Their business is killing, soldiers, but they are rewarded, "Oh, thank you very much. Take this title." Just Arjuna, just like Arjuna killed on the order of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa gave him cert . . . bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3): "You are My very dear friend. You are My devotee." So we have to act by the order of the Supreme. Then we are not responsible. (japa) (break)

Umāpati: . . . I have, I have been reading some of the writings of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and I have come to an understanding from what I have read that there are . . . there is, there is a thing called tendency and, and . . . well, in other words, the Vedas will teach a man if he is incapable of not killing, of, incapable of not killing, if he's addicted to meat-eating, that there are rules whereby he can eat meat and thereby, under prescribed rules found in the Vedas, and thereby, his pious activity, he can raise to a higher level of understanding. And then there are rules that says: "Thou shalt not eat meat," and therefore one is eligible and must follow those restrictions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the beginning . . .

Umāpati: In the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Just like loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya-sevā nityā hi jantoḥ (SB 11.5.11). There is tendency for eating meat. Therefore Vedas says that, "You can eat meat, but . . ." Not only Vedas; in other scriptures also. The Jews also say. The Muhammadans also say that you can kill in the synagogue or in the, what is called, mosque, one animal. But not slaughterhouse. No religion prescribes that you open slaughterhouse. No.

Prajāpati: It's always done under . . .

Prabhupāda: That is restricted. Why it is advised to kill in the synagogue? Why not publicly? That means it is not wanted, but if you go on killing in the mosque, some day you may come to your sense that you are a rascal, you are becoming responsible. But if you open slaughterhouse, that sense will never come.

Hṛdayānanda: And not to kill the cow?

Prabhupāda: Especially not to kill cow. That animal is very, very important to the human society. According to the Vedic system, those who are meat-eaters, they are recommended to kill some goat or some other animal. Not cow.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now there's sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when these animals are sacrificed according to śāstric injunctions . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . I think they are benefited.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are benefited.

Karandhara: Also, the animal also has the chance to come back in its next life and kill the person that killed the animal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: So it's a great risk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Māṁ-saḥ. Mām, mām means "me"; saḥ means "he". "He eats me." That is meat.

Bali-mardana: In Nepal, they kill thousands of black goats and buffaloes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But never they kill cows.

Bali-mardana: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall go this way? (break)

Prajāpati: They had a great difficulty. Because of poor fund of knowledge in the śāstras, they formed doctrines, so many doctrines, where groups of men got together and said: "This is what we believe." And they have so many doctrines. Many people killed, fighting over these doctrines, and even the intelligent people will simply, instead of trying to find out about God, simply try to clarify these doctrines more and more.

Prabhupāda: As soon as you say there are so many doctrines, that means that all of them are rascals. All of them are rascals. Otherwise, why there should be so many doctrines?

Umāpati: There's only one doctrine.

Bali-mardana: "God is one."

Prabhupāda: Yes, God is one. God is good. That is only one doctrine. And why there should be different doctrines? That means those who have created different doctrines means they're all rascals.

Karandhara: Because they deviated from the central point and became preoccupied with their own speculation.

Prabhupāda: That's all. That, that is not the process. First of all you have to know that God is unlimited, you are limited. How can you approach Him with your doctrine? Because you are limited, your ideas, your thinking, is limited. So how you can approach the unlimited? That is foolishness.

Karandhara: These doctrines are simply veiled atheism.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: Rationalized atheism.

Prabhupāda: They are called kutarkī. Kutarkī, "bad logicians." Bad logicians. Kutarkī.

Prajāpati: So much of it is based on politics, also, Prabhupāda. They . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. They, they, they're everything, motivated. So therefore they're imperfect. I have got . . . just like this United Nations. They have gone there for becoming united, but they remain disunited forever. Just see. All the best men go there for becoming united, but forever they will remain disunited. Just see the practical. Because they're all imperfect, rascals, motivated. How they can be united? They cannot be united. Simply spoiling their time and public money. That's all. Simply spoiling.

But public have no eyes to see them. They're also rascal. Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that the whole society's now combination of cheaters and cheated. That's all. The cheated want cheaters, and cheaters take the opportunity of the cheated. And that is the combination of the present-day society. Somebody, they want to be cheated. And there are some cheaters. So the whole society is combination of cheater and cheated.

Dr. Wolfe: That is why nobody wants to change anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Wolfe: No real reform.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Wolfe: Because they all want to go on cheating.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You see? That is the qualification of conditioned soul: to become a cheater, and to become cheated. This is the condition. To become a cheater is one of the condition of material life. The four defects—he must commit mistake, he must be illusioned, and he must cheat, and his senses are imperfect. These are the four qualification of the materialistic person.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also one of the qualities of bondage?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bondage?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are . . . because they are, they have been bound up by the laws of nature, so these qualities they have developed.

Prajāpati: Why are they so very puffed up and proud even with these defects, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: That is the, that is the . . . therefore we say they are rascals.

Karandhara: Arrogant.

Prabhupāda: Arrogant. They have no qualification—still, they are puffed up. That is rascaldom.

Bali-mardana: Prabhupāda, when the universes are emanated from the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, they begin to expand.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bali-mardana: Is the universe still expanding?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the scientific theory.

Bali-mardana: Yeah. I think Einstein agreed with that also. Many scientists, they also have come to that conclusion.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Einstein followed the theory that the universe is expanding. So people accept it.

Karandhara: While the exhaling is going on, the universe is expanding. In the inhaling . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: . . . the universe is contracting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not contracting; they'll be finished, destroyed. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). This is the nature, material nature. It will grow. Just like this tree has grown. One day there will be no more. Finished. Your body has grown, and one day it will now finish. That is material nature. Similarly, this universe. It has grown, and one day it will be finished.

Umāpati: Is darkness eternal, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Umāpati: Is darkness eternal?

Prabhupāda: No. Darkness is within this universe, not outside. Not outside.

Karandhara: Darkness has no separate existence.

Prabhupāda: Darkness means absence of light. That is darkness. It is the negation of light. Similarly, material life means forgetfulness of God. That's all. What is our spiritual life? We are simply trying to revive our understanding of God. That is spiritual life. And when you perfectly revive, that is spiritual. (japa)

(break) . . . whatever you do, that is your defeat. Because you cannot see things in the proper perspective, therefore in darkness, or in ignorance, whatever you do, that is your defeat. Therefore we see that so much advancement of education, civilization, but everything is defeat. Nobody's satisfied. Because it is defeat. It is not progress, it is defeat.

Bali-mardana: We have to be led by someone who can see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, if you led by another blind man, what is your benefit? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And our thankless task is . . . just like a blind man going, falling into the ditch, we say: "No, no. Don't go there. You'll fall down." But he becomes angry, "Why you are instructing me?" That is our thankless task. We have to do it. How we can see that this blind man is going . . .? He'll immediately fall and die. How we can remain silent? We must have to say. That is our business, that "For want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are going to die. Take it. Be saved." But they do not like it.

Umāpati: The followers of Guru Maharaj-ji, the so-called . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, don't talk of Guru Maharaj-ji. He's a rascal. What is the use of talking about him?

Umāpati: They say that . . .

Prabhupāda: They say! They are fools, rascals. We are not concerned.

Umāpati: . . . (indistinct)

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, this way, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: What do they say?

Bali-mardana: They have no philosophy. It is useless to discuss.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is nonsense. A set of nonsense.

Umāpati: If we ask them what is the basis of their philosophy that they understand Maharaj-ji to be a seer . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Umāpati: . . . they have no answer. They have no . . .

Prabhupāda: That is good question. Yes. "On what standard you accept him?"

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to be cheated.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: People want to be cheated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the society of cheater and cheated.

Prajāpati: Sometimes great souls, they will cheat people also for their own benefit?

Prabhupāda: Uh? But a great soul will never cheat. One who cheats, he's not great soul; he's the menial soul. Soul is not menial or great, but he's covered by māyā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Lord Buddha cheated the . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lord Buddha.

Prabhupāda: Cheat. His cheating was perfect, because he cheated for the good. They did not believe in God, and God came, "Yes there is no God. Just follow me." But he's God. That's all. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So God can only do.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: What about Śaṅkara's cheating?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śaṅkara's cheating is also like that, because he was taking . . . he was accepting from the Buddhists. If he immediately says that, "Lord Buddha was . . . cheated you," they'll not accept. Therefore he made some compromise. The Buddhist theory is "void," and he said: "No form." So it is almost the same. But he said: "There is Brahman." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. That much improvement.

The same process: Just like one wants to eat meat, he is given some regulation, "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you do like this: Go to a mosque. On Eid day you can kill one animal," or "You go to the synagogue under the protection of . . ." And our Hindu śāstra says, "Go to the goddess Kālī's temple, and get a goat, black goat." That means under condition. If it is good thing, it would have been sanctioned, "Yes, you can do whatever you like." But it is not good. But if you say: "It is not good," he'll not accept. Therefore under some condition. (break)

Prajāpati: There's a group called Christian Scientists. They say God is not a person—He's simply a principle, a principle of truth, beauty, all these—just qualities.

Prabhupāda: But show the example, what is that principle.

Karandhara: What is the meaning of principle without person?

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of principle? Show me. You are talking nonsense.

Prajāpati: They say He's a principle is . . .

Prabhupāda: As soon as you call "principle," there must be a person. There must be a person. Otherwise, there is no principle.

Bali-mardana: Just like when you say "law," you have . . . there has to be a government.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to accept one law-maker.

Bali-mardana: They say, "the law of nature," but they refuse to acc . . .

Prabhupāda: Any law, as soon as you say "law," you must have to accept a law-maker. Any law. Otherwise, there is no . . . just like the law is, "When there is red light, you must stop." You don't see any person, but if you don't stop, then you go to a person who will prosecute you. You don't see the person here, but if you violate, you'll have to go to a person who will fine you: "You rascal, you have done this." So ultimately a puruṣa, person. (break)

Karandhara: . . . just for atheists who want to be a little pious, but they're not . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, little . . . little moralist.

Karandhara: Yes. Moral atheists.

Prajāpati: In the West, there's what's known as the Protestant ethic, which means you work hard like a dog and a cat.

Karandhara: And enjoy, enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is done by the pigs. Whole day, finding out, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he eats some stool, he gets some fat, "Where is sex? Never mind mother, sister or daughter. Come on, sex." This is pig life, pig civilization. It is not human civilization. This kind of behavior is found amongst the pigs, amongst the dogs. Do you think we have to create a human society like the pigs' society? At the present moment, they're eating anything and everything like pigs, and they're having sex with anyone, never mind. So it is a pig society. There is no discrimination. (break) . . . the most popular thing is this drinking—eating meat and drinking wine. Is that to be accepted because it is very popular?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they use Transcendental Meditation . . .

Prabhupāda: What is this Transcendental Meditation? They do not know. The another cheater, and he's big amongst the cheated. That's all.

Bali-mardana: There's nothing transcendental about it.

Yaśomatīnandana: But they call it "transcendental."

Prabhupāda: They can call anything. Just like . . . just like . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's now taught almost over all of the universities now here.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have . . .

Hṛdayānanda: But the, but the sincere people don't believe it. When we go to the colleges, many students come to us and say: "These people are cheating us." They know it.

Karandhara: They don't even talk about God, Transcendental Meditation.

Satsvarūpa: Creative Intelligence.

Bali-mardana: Psychological.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students know they're cheaters.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it has been accepted all over the country.

Hṛdayānanda: Not by the intelligent.

Bali-mardana: They're tricking the government.

Prabhupāda: Not . . . I don't accept. We don't accept. Why do you say: "All over the country"?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I mean in schools, in colleges.

Prabhupāda: No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have departments.

Prabhupāda: They why they are complaining?

Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students all criticize it. Many, many people criticize it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw a big pamphlet.

Bali-mardana: They've made . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that meditation?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they meditate for fifteen, twenty minutes. And they have a . . . (indistinct) . . . I think. You have to pay some money for that.

Hṛdayānanda: They say, they say it will increase your sense gratification, make more money.

Bali-mardana: But they don't . . . they do not claim any spiritual benefit. It is only material benefit that they claim.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: They why "Transcendental"?

Bali-mardana: Well, it's just a catchy name.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have so many scientific tests like blood tests, the blood, circulation of the blood is improved and the mental condition is improved.

Prabhupāda: That is all material. That has nothing to do with spiritual. Blood is not spiritual, it is material.

Bali-mardana: It may have some material advantage.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Blood is there in the cats and dogs also. That is also circulating.

Karandhara: A combination of psychotherapy and . . . (indistinct)

Bali Mardana: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: No . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they are saying . . .

Prabhupāda: Even an animal, the blood circulation is better. Therefore he's better than Transcendental Meditation. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they're saying that, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: If the Transcendental Meditation is concerned with the blood circulation, you'll find in the animals, the blood circulation is first class. Therefore above transcendental.

Umāpati: In the same regard, they admire animals for that reason.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Umāpati: In the same regard, they admire animals for . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, actually, transcendental meditation is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but these people are saying that if I compare with a man who is practicing Transcendental Meditation with a normal man, then . . . they compare different, these tests, they're called physiological tests.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That physiological test, you can do between man and animal. The animal will be found better. Their circulation of blood is most natural.

Karandhara: Also the state of mind which they claim is beneficial, the same state of mind can be reached more quickly by smoking opium.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: Well . . .

Bali-mardana: We know from experience.

Karandhara: Yes. Calm state of mind, emitting alpha rays, alpha brain waves. Smoke opium, you get the same thing.

Hṛdayānanda: Really? No, the intelligent students all know it's cheating.

Umāpati: They say that's an easy way.

Karandhara: Why not take the easy way?

Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand what is meant by transcendental.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That word they use wrongly. That is transcendental. They use the word "Transcendental Meditation," but it is not actually transcendental.

Karandhara: They had this one machine. They put a tester on the head . . .

Prabhupāda: Bring any student of Transcendental Meditation and talk with our student—he'll be kicked out immediately. That is the test.

Hṛdayānanda: You're right, Prabhupāda. They're cheaters. I talked to one of their leaders at a college, and I, I defeated all their points. Then they simply became embarrassed and said: "Well, I don't want to talk any more." And they went away.

Prabhupāda: That's good. (laughter)

Karandhara: They made this one machine to test how advanced they were.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Karandhara: It had a light bulb on it. So they put a thing on the person's head, and when he's in Transcendental Meditation, if the light bulb goes on, then he's in samādhi. So one man came and smoked opium and put the machine on his head, and the light stayed on. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: They are speaking of "transcendental," but testing by mundane.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Transcendental perfection is tested by mundane instrument.

Hṛdayānanda: Boy, that's contradiction.

Bali-mardana: They don't ever use the word "trans . . ." They just call it "TM." (break)

Prajāpati: . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda, is what's called "linguistic analysis."

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Prajāpati: So they don't want to find out really what God is, but simply what do you mean when you use the word "God."

Prabhupāda: We mean God is great. That's all. There is no need of linguistic analysis. One word is sufficient: "God is great."

Karandhara: They would say the psychology of that is that you're suffering from an inferiority complex.

Prabhupāda: Eh? You are inferior. You are being kicked every moment by the laws of nature. How do you claim that you are superior? Why you are covering? Because you are kicked by the laws of material nature.

Umāpati: There's no complex.

Prabhupāda: There is no question . . . you have to cover yourself.

Bali-mardana: They say that . . .

Prabhupāda: How do you say you are superior? You are inferior. As soon as you cover your body, you are inferior.

Karandhara: They say: "Well, we . . . I made this hat. So whatever inferiorities I have, I can conquer them by my intelligence."

Prabhupāda: But that intelligence, superior intelligence, will never come to you. You'll always remain inferior.

Hṛdayānanda: What about death?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are always inferior.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will prolong death.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will prolong death. They're trying to prolong.

Prabhupāda: "They're trying."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Live longer.

Prabhupāda: Death.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ultimately, find there is no death.

Prabhupāda: No, what . . .? Death is . . . what do you mean by death?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Losing the material body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that you are losing every day, every moment. You are not today what you were yesterday, that you are losing. So how can you defeat? You are, every moment you are being defeated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are some theories now. By turning the temperature, by cooling down little more than the body temperature, you can live longer.

Prabhupāda: Well, you can live little longer, but you cannot live forever. That is not possible.

Umāpati: They're freezing the body now, Prabhupāda, in the hopes that sometime in the future science will be able to make them come back to life.

Prabhupāda: That is all future. That is all future.

Hṛdayānanda: They take so much money for it.

Prabhupāda: It is not practical.

Karandhara: The trouble is, when they lower the body temperature, the sensitivity is lowered. Therefore enjoyment is also lowered. So it's a question of living for a few more years and enjoying less or enjoying more and living less.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the government is very kind to them. They supply money to do research on that—thousands of dollars.

Prabhupāda: And what is the government? Combination of some rascals. That's all. You are a rascal, you vote another rascal, and they combine together and become government. None of them are intelligent. I am rascal, so I must vote another rascal. And all those combination of rascals become government. And they cheat another, the rascals who voted them. That's all. Therefore it is a society of cheater and cheated.

Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for letting us walk with you this morning.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda!

(Prabhupāda gets in car)

Prajāpati: There is no defeat here, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) (end)