730730 - Conversation - London

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730730R1-LONDON - July 30, 1973 - 85:47 Minutes

(Conversation with reporter Satish Kumar from Resurgence Magazine)

Prabhupāda: . . . things are there, how you can reject one and accept another? It must be properly utilized.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like if one has got money, he cannot . . . he can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly hiṁsā, when it is used for . . . just like in Manu-saṁhitā it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also hiṁsā, to get a man hanged. But Manu-saṁhitā says that this kind of hiṁsā is necessary. Because the man who has committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished.

Otherwise, from next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to śāstra, hiṁsā . . . ahiṁsā is good, but when there is necessity, hiṁsā is also good.

Satish Kumar: Yes. When there is right hiṁsā, then it becomes a right action.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: And therefore it is no more hiṁsā. But when the devilish . . .

Prabhupāda: And actually it is not hiṁsā.

Satish Kumar: Actually it is not hiṁsā, exactly, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like father gives a slap.

Satish Kumar: Yeah, it is not hiṁsā.

Prabhupāda: It is not hiṁsā.

Satish Kumar: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, the hiṁsā, so-called hiṁsā, when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, that is not hiṁsā. That is love.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Then it is hiṁsā.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. Then it is hiṁsā. And I am against that hiṁsā which is not directed by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right.

Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are living in, nuclear age, where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Kṛṣṇa is . . .

Prabhupāda: That is hiṁsā.

Satish Kumar: That is hiṁsā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: That you have understood. That is my point.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That so-called hiṁsā, when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, is not hiṁsā.

Satish Kumar: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's . . .

Prabhupāda: The same example as I gave, gave you, that when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not hiṁsā. It is doing good to him.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No . . . king is . . . king means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Kṛṣṇa's representative, nara-devatā. The king is supposed to act on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa's business is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8).

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful.

Satish Kumar: But today's kings . . .

Prabhupāda: Today's no . . . I'm speaking the principle. Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not.

Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah.

Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the king, exactly like God. Why? Because king is supposed to be representative of God.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Supposed to be.

Prabhupāda: Our Vedic conception is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, this catur-varṇa. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa, whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa. Nowadays, that . . . such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as a śūdra, but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa.

Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: You see?

Satish Kumar: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king . . . it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "doctor" or "medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. If one is claiming to be kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Now, what are the qualification of brāhmaṇa, what are the qualification of kṣatriya, they are there already in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So it is government's duty, that you are claiming. So everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya. Sva-dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. By quality. Guṇa-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra, a vaiśya is employed and engaged as . . . just like vaiśya. Vaiśya, it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Now the vaiśyas, they are in the share market, speculating.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. There are no more vaiśyas. (laughs) Exactly.

Prabhupāda: Industrialist. Industrialist means śūdras. So if they're śūdras, why they should claim as . . .

Satish Kumar: Vaiśyas.

Prabhupāda: This is government's duty, to see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? Your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, to give protection to the cows." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big Birlas, big, big Dalmias. You see.

Satish Kumar: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas. Nehru, he was a brāhmaṇa. What did he do as a brāhmaṇa? But he was at the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. When such . . . when such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the vaiśyas are no more following their duty . . .

Prabhupāda: This is, this is . . . this world is material world. And . . .

(aside) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad, sit comfortably.

Woman guest: It's too hot over there. Because of the fire.

Satish Kumar: She's very hot.

Prabhupāda: (aside) So, you can open this. I keep little water, rheumatic.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: You can sit down near me.

Devotee: Would you like a chair?

Woman guest: No.

Satish Kumar: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva-dharma, their true self . . .

Prabhupāda: That anyone can do at any moment.

Satish Kumar: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: Any moment.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But then what is the action for the . . . practical action, practical . . . to bring it back. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Practical action . . . if you give up . . . if a brāhmaṇa gives up his sva-dharma, then it becomes a varṇa-saṅkara.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Kula-dharma.

(aside) What is that in the Bhagavad-gītā, we were reading yesterday? Jāti-dharma, kula-dharma.

So they produce varṇa-saṅkara. If one does not follow the jāti-dharma, the kula-dharma, then he comes to the category of the varṇa-saṅkara. Saṅkaro narakāyaiva (BG 1.41). So when a person born in brāhmaṇa family is not acting as a brāhmaṇa, he's varṇa-saṅkara. So when there are number of people varṇa-saṅkara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakāyaiva. Śaṅkaro narakāyaiva.

(aside) What is that? Read that.

Pradyumna:

kula-kṣaye praṇaśyanti

kula-dharmāḥ sanātanāḥ

dharme naṣṭe kulaṁ kṛtsnam

adharmo 'bhibhavaty uta

(BG 1.39)

"With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice."

adharmābhibhavāt kṛṣṇa

praduṣyanti kula-striyaḥ

strīṣu duṣṭāsu vārṣṇeya

jāyate varṇa-saṅkaraḥ

(BG 1.40)

Prabhupāda: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jāti-dharma, and creating varṇa-saṅkara . . . varṇa-saṅkara . . . just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process, daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra. So the first saṁskāra is garbhādhāna. So in this Bhāgavata it is said by Nārada that as soon as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes śūdra. So who is observing the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra? Nobody.

Satish Kumar: (laughs) Nobody.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Ka . . . in this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra. No brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdras, or less than śūdra.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Pañcama. This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform them, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible; it is Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are very slow, they'll not accept the right path . . . just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders, they are saying, "Well, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted as God?" Even big, big leaders, they did not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle . . . you know better than me.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, if big, big scholars say, when Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . . . (BG 18.65), the scholars say: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment.

The leaders . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jāti-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varṇa-saṅkara.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Everybody is varṇa-saṅkara.

Prabhupāda: This is it. Therefore the only remedy is,

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā

(CC Adi 17.21)

This is the only . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings which has come. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the . . .

Satish Kumar: Hmm. But what . . .?

Prabhupāda: It is most scientific.

Satish Kumar: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma-yoga, the action, to transform the society, bring back into the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti-yoga in its preliminary stage is karma-yoga. yoga, yoga means connecting.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So karma, when you . . .

Satish Kumar: yoga karma sukhośanām.

Prabhupāda: Akarma sukhośanām.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you are addicted to karma.

Satish Kumar: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: So if you bring bhakti, karma-miśra-bhakti, that is called karma-yoga. Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jñāna. When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jñāna-miśra-bhakti or jñāna-yoga. So these things are there. Just like karma-yoga: yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). This is karma-yoga. You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Kṛṣṇa says, yat karoṣi.

Yat karoṣi: never mind, even if you are a thief, your business is stealing—you steal. Yat karoṣi means that includes everything. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu (BG 2.47).

Satish Kumar: Mā phaleṣu.

Prabhupāda: This is karma-yoga—when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Kṛṣṇa, that is karma-yoga.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah, but karmaṇy evādhikāras te . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: This is the, the point where . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to work.

Satish Kumar: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: You see?

Satish Kumar: But . . . so . . . if our responsibility is to act without attachment with the result, I accept, I agree with it.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says that kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). The result must be there.

Satish Kumar: Yes. But that should be . . .

Prabhupāda: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot . . .

Satish Kumar: Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it must be given to someone. So who is the perfect person who can take it? That is Kṛṣṇa.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So yat karoṣi, that is the . . . Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is bhakti-yoga or karma-yoga, whatever you . . .

Satish Kumar: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: But Kṛṣṇa is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, and that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight?

Prabhupāda: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kurukṣetra.

Satish Kumar: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our . . .

Haṁsadūta: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do?

Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa's representative will tell you. Kṛṣṇa is not there, but Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. So you have to ask the Kṛṣṇa's representative.

Satish Kumar: So that's why I have come to you . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: . . . to ask you.

Prabhupāda: If you think me a representative of Kṛṣṇa, I can help you. (everyone laughs)

Satish Kumar: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They're thinking, "And to become Kṛṣṇa's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult.

Satish Kumar: It is not difficult.

Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa . . . who is Kṛṣṇa's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that:

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa

yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

(CC Madhya 7.128)

You understand Bengali?

Satish Kumar: No.

Prabhupāda: He says that, "By My order, you become a guru." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ājñāya, order?" That yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken." That's all. So what is the difficulty? If we speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, exactly . . . therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without my interpretation, not nonsense. No.

Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): there is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that "Here is Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. There is no more superior person or authority than Kṛṣṇa." So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). We are saying the same thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa."

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: "Don't bother with any other things." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching them that always think of Kṛṣṇa, always become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, always offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. So where is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Kṛṣṇa's representative. Who is representative?

What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's book Bhagavad-gītā and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. He'll speak his own words on the authority of Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct)

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad-gītā? How much, ah, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy—speak. Why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā? But that is going on. They take the advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and speaks their own nonsense things. They're not representative of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's representative is he who exactly speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Kṛṣṇa's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Kṛṣṇa.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. No, but . . . can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), Kṛṣṇa is speaking in a context of a clear, defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us.

Prabhupāda: Why not available?

Satish Kumar: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66).

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now, dharma means occupation. dharma is not translated as "religion."

Satish Kumar: No, no.

Prabhupāda: This is wrong translation. dharma means occupation.

Satish Kumar: Activity?

Prabhupāda: Activity, occupation.

Satish Kumar: All activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Kṛṣṇa says: "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it is . . ."

Satish Kumar: But He's saying sarva-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: . . . not sarva-karmān parityajya.

Prabhupāda: dharma means karma. dharma means activity. Just like a brāhmaṇa . . .

Satish Kumar: But activity . . .

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . how he can understand the Brahman? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So this dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, they are divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. dharma means karma, activity. Brāhmaṇa, he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya-karma svabhāva-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brāhmaṇa's executing the karma of brāhmaṇa, his dharma.

Satish Kumar: Yes, but then karmaṇy evādhikāras te . . .

Prabhupāda: karmaṇi means that you are as you are . . .

Satish Kumar: No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . evādhikāras te. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Anyway . . .

Satish Kumar: 'Cause activity . . .

Prabhupāda: dharma means karma. dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42).

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is karma. So brāhmaṇa's activity means brāhmaṇa. So that activity is karma. Ah? Yajana yājana paṭhana pāṭhana dāna pratigraha (SB 5.17.11 purport), these are brāhmaṇa's.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizen, to become in charitably disposed. Everything is described there: these are these kṣatriya's karma; these the brāhmaṇa's karma; these are the, eh, vaiśya's karma; these are the śūdra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. dharma karma. dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa, you have to act as a brāhmaṇa.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: You are kṣatriya, you have to act as a kṣatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock, offering maṅgala-ārati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then taking their class and taking prasādam, then going to outside for performing saṅkīrtana, for distributing book.

Whole day, twenty-four hours, karma. So therefore outsiders, they cannot understand that, "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing. What kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti. They think bhakti means "Just close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that.

Satish Kumar: Bhakti is the quality . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, quality of karma. Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was given the certificate—bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So everything is karma, whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity, what is the quality of activity. Yes. How you can live without being active? You are living being. That is not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of activity. That makes one karma-yogī, jñāna-yogī, dhyāna-yogī, bhakti-yogī. Everywhere there is karma. Without karma there is nothing.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Can I ask you another . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is called karma-miśra-bhakti. It is not unalloyed bhakti.

Satish Kumar: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Unalloyed bhakti, there is no karma.

Satish Kumar: There's no karma. Yes.

Prabhupāda: There's no karma. That is very high state. But originally . . .

Satish Kumar: Akarma, then it comes akarma.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is very high state. But originally . . .

Satish Kumar: Akarma, then it comes akarma.

Prabhupāda: Ah, akarma.

Satish Kumar: Sannyāsa.

Prabhupāda: No, more than akarma.

Satish Kumar: Sannyāsa?

Prabhupāda: More than a . . . sannyāsī is akarma, yes. Sannyāsī is also not akarma. Sannyāsa means . . . that is also described in Bhagavad-gītā: anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ (BG 6.1). That is also karma. Kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ sa sannyāsī. "It is my duty"—on this principle when one works, he is sannyāsī. He does not work for himself; he works for Kṛṣṇa. And that is sannyāsa. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalam. Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result.

Anāśritaḥ karma-phalam. Kāryam: it is my duty. Kāryam. karma karot . . . karma karoti yaḥ. That is karma. Sa sannyāsī. So how you can say in sannyāsa there is no karma? karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done. The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma? So when the end is Kṛṣṇa, to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167).

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma?

Prabhupāda: Akarma means that does not produce another karma. Or sometimes akarma means laziness.

Satish Kumar: No, not (laughs) in the sense of Gītā.

Prabhupāda: karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam (BG 4.17). So akarma means, that is bhakti also. Akarma means, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ: when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma, that is karma. And when you act yajñārthe, for Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma, that is akarma. So you can see. It does not produce, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said: "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma."

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. But then why there are three words, karma, vikarma, akarma? There are three.

Prabhupāda: That . . . vikarma means . . . karma means you act according to the injunction of the śāstra. That is karma. And vikarma means when you violate, violate the injunction of the śāstra.

Devotee: Violate.

Prabhupāda: Violate.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the śāstra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. That's the vikarma.

Prabhupāda: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the śāstra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. So generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities . . . no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ duta yatra papas catur-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38).

Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the śāstras. Illicit sex life. You cannot indulge in sex life without marriage; that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the śāstra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma; you are becoming bound up, being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma. Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Otherwise, beginning from ant up to the Brahmā, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Vi . . . but is it not like vasiṣṭhaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam?

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Satish Kumar: Vasiṣṭhān karmān vikarmān? Not like that? "Vi-" is generally used as to . . . a sort of . . . (indistinct) . . . to give the quality of the karma, quality of the action. Like vijñānam—jñānaṁ vijñānam; karmam vikarmam. So this a little . . . what is this root of the language? I don't . . .

Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is. Jñānam means theoretical knowledge, and vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life . . . just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña.

Yajñād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). These things are there. So everyone should act for yajña, Yajñeśavara. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, never mind, whatever you are . . . everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate.

Satish Kumar: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam (CC Madhya 8.58). So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varṇāśrama-dharma. This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varṇas, that is animal society; everything is chaos.

Satish Kumar: You want to ask anything?

Woman guest: No.

(aside) (whispering)

My understanding is that you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa first, and then you know what to do.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we are teaching this sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), just to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But what happens, that some people have a social dimension, social-political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But then it seems to me—I'm just asking—that we, when we are emphasizing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social-political dimension. So how to bring this . . .

Prabhupāda: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Kṛṣṇa did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking?

Satish Kumar: No, no, I'm not saying Kṛṣṇa did not take. I'm just saying that it seems, at least sometimes, it seems that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough . . . it is not clear enough—and I'm not saying it is not there, but it's not clear enough—the social-political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear.

Prabhupāda: No, it is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it will be clear. It is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa, this is the business of kṣatriya. So politics is the business of the kṣatriya. So if you act according to Kṛṣṇa's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mālā and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a kṣatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaiśya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction.

Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa. But if you act whimsically, then where is your surrender? And why do you become a brāhmaṇa? Then it is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they do not abide by the direction of Kṛṣṇa, still, they have become leaders. Therefore whole thing is chaos.

Satish Kumar: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now we are, Ann and myself and June . . . we are publishing a magazine called Resurgence.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Satish Kumar: And . . . John Papworth came yesterday?

Mahādeva: John Papworth was here a few days ago, yes.

Prabhupāda: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him.

Satish Kumar: Yes, he was editor before.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Satish Kumar: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking—Mahādeva was also in it—but how we can bring this total understanding together? So we . . . because when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first go, they are not . . .

Prabhupāda: We are presenting . . .

Satish Kumar: . . . they understand the way of communication.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are asking all these students . . . when I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Kṛṣṇa." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs)

Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes.

Prabhupāda: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly, when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly.

Satish Kumar: In order to clear your heart you have to chant.

Prabhupāda: That is it.

Satish Kumar: Right.

Woman guest: What about meditating?

Prabhupāda: This is the best medicine, meditation.

Woman guest: It's better than the other kind?

Prabhupāda: When meditation . . . meditation, dhyāna, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That is another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) When there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear, they also hear.

Woman guest (2): What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them.

Devotee: But Kṛṣṇa is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Kṛṣṇa taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Woman guest (2): Oh, I see.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Kṛṣṇa is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (laughter)

Satish Kumar: No conflict.

Woman guest (2): I am not sure. I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. Just like Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They will support: "This killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that." They want to kill. That's all. There is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But you do not follow, at the same time you say you are Christian, there is conflict.

It is clearly stated—I've asked so many Christian that "Why you kill?" Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that, "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretation. There is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shall not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses?

Woman guest (2): But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it? he thought . . .

Prabhupāda: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now.

(pause)

If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shall not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it?

Satish Kumar: True.

Prabhupāda: Just see Arjuna—you are talking of Arjuna—before fighting, before killing, so many things he's getting clarified. Ah? Kathaṁ sva-janaṁ hantuṁ . . . (indistinct) . . . (BG 1.36). Just see. "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill.

(aside) Hmm. What is that?

Pradyumna:

yady apy ete na paśyanti

lobhopahata-cetasaḥ

kula-kṣaya-kṛtaṁ doṣaṁ

mitra-drohe ca pātakam

kathaṁ na jñeyam asmābhiḥ

pāpād asmān nivartitum

kula-kṣaya-kṛtaṁ doṣaṁ

prapaśyadbhir janārdana

(BG 1.37-38)

"O Janārdana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?"

Prabhupāda: He's thoroughly understanding—before killing. Not that . . . (indistinct) . . . he began to kill. No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see this is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church, although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things? Why?

Satish Kumar: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious . . .

Prabhupāda: Life.

Satish Kumar: . . . experience in life.

Prabhupāda: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply by rubber-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets?

Satish Kumar: Same as you were saying: Nehru was not a brāhmaṇa, but only because he was called brāhmaṇa. So . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why Nehru? Everyone.

Satish Kumar: Everyone.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. That's all.

Satish Kumar: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment. Kṛṣṇa says:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

(BG 9.32)

So even one is śūdra, we can give him deliverance by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a śūdra. But Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ, even lower than the śūdra, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim, if he accepts Kṛṣṇa, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become śūdra. There is remedy also.

Satish Kumar: Even the śūdras can . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lower than śūdra. Why śūdra? Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥye ye 'nye ca pāpā (SB 2.4.18), or even the pāpi, śudhyanti, they become purified if they accept the real representative of Kṛṣṇa, prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ. Everything is there in the śāstras. If you take advantage of the benefit of the śāstras, everything can be remodeled; everything can be good. There is no cause of disappointment. But unfortunately, they'll not agree. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti (BG 16.23).

One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative śāstra, he'll never get success, na siddhim avāpnoti. Na sukham: neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? That is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the śāstra. Now, Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme authority by all the ācāryas. The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, Lord Caitanya . . .

Satish Kumar: Śaṅkarācārya.

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya. They all accept Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). They accept, all. So how can you defy all these ācāryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense.

Satish Kumar: But all these ācāryas interpret in different, different ways.

Prabhupāda: No. No.

Satish Kumar: No?

Prabhupāda: On the principle, they never. Just like Śaṅkarācārya and Rāmānujācārya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments in Bhagavad-gītā. Śaṅkarācārya, although he is impersonalist, he says, nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt: "Nārāyaṇa is beyond this cosmic manifestation. He's transcendental." That means he says He's person. Nārāyaṇa, as soon as Nārāyaṇa, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in a spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy . . . he started the philosophy brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā.

Satish Kumar: Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā.

Prabhupāda: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithyā. Śaṅkarācārya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college or hospital . . . never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithyā, then why should we bother all these things?

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So who is following Śaṅkarācārya? And they say that, "We are followers of Śaṅkarācārya," and they are engaged . . . Śaṅkarācārya follower means he must become first of all sannyāsī, then talk anything else. So who is taking . . . going to do that?

Satish Kumar: And all those Śaṅkara Maṭha and Śaṅkarācārya's various places in India don't live as jagat was mithyā. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No, jagan mithyā . . . we don't say jagan mithyā.

Satish Kumar: No.

Prabhupāda: We Vaiṣṇavas, why should I say jagan mithyā? If God is truth, what is created by Him, that is also truth. That is also truth. Because Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). Me, "My." So why shall I take Kṛṣṇa's things as false? If Kṛṣṇa is truth, His things are also truth. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say.

Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Kṛṣṇa, it can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That is karma-yoga, bhakti-yoga. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Just like here is a microphone, here is a tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say, "No, no, no, we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot touch this material thing . . ." We don't say like that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything has connection with Kṛṣṇa, so why shall I call it as material? Parityāga. This is condemned by Rūpa Gosvāmī:

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā

hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ

mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo

phalgu vairāgyaṁ vartate

(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256)

The mumukṣu, the Śaṅkarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world.

Satish Kumar: He who wants liberation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Mumukṣu.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mumukṣu. So this mumukṣu, they're giving up these material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari-sambandha.

Satish Kumar: Yes, hari-sambandha.

Prabhupāda: They do not know this art.

Satish Kumar: Kṛṣṇa connection, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Now people know only "French Connection." They've forgetten Kṛṣṇa connection. (laughs) Yes, very true.

Prabhupāda: But we see everything has got Kṛṣṇa connection. Therefore we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like you're talking about Kṛṣṇa, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Kṛṣṇa's service. Why shall I give it up? Because the aeroplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. In every year I am wandering all over the world twice, thrice. Because if you use aeroplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why shall I give it up, "It is mithyā"? Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car?

So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairāgya. We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk these things underneath a tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree, nobody will come to me. (laughter) Just see. So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy.

anāsaktasya viṣayān

yathārham upayuñjataḥ

nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe

yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate

(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255)

Yukta-vairāgya. After all, you have to practice vairāgya. Not under attachment. But in connection with Kṛṣṇa nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithyā, how do they consider mithyā. Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithyā, but they are accepting it, under a different name—"Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital . . ." They're coming to the mithyā platform under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithyā, why you are starting a school?

Satish Kumar: Yes. Only way is to sannyāsa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not sannyāsī business. For starting a school the government is there, public is there. Why you . . . that means brahma satya you could not understand; you are coming to the school-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satya. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this. Give me some chanda (charity)" That's all. "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma . . . jagat is mithyā, why you are coming again to this mithyā platform?

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. So detachment is there.

Prabhupāda: Detachment, that is required.

Satish Kumar: Anāsakta.

Prabhupāda: Yes, detachment and jñāna. Jñāna-vairāgya.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. The jñāna-vairāgya.

Prabhupāda: This is the real achievement of human life, that jñāna-vairāgya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). Ah? Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti yo . . . janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Just like these boys.

Satish Kumar: Quick detachment.

Prabhupāda: Ah? Immediate . . .

Satish Kumar: Instant, instant, āśu vairāgya.

Prabhupāda: Āśu vairāgya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke," or "I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. They have kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (laughter) This is vairāgya. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they have got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, in the Western countries. How they have given up? Jñāna-vairāgya. Janayaty āśu.

Satish Kumar: Vairāgya, yes.

Prabhupāda: Āśu, "very immediate."

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Instant.

Prabhupāda: Instant.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So bhakti-yoga is so powerful. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam . . . (SB 1.2.7).

Satish Kumar: Is this in the Gītā, in Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: No, in Bhāgavatam.

Satish Kumar: Bhāgavatam, yes.

Prabhupāda: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up.

Satish Kumar: But he was not in power or position.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi that, "You have so much respect now. Now you have got sva-rāja, you give up this business. Let us preach Bhagavad-gītā. People will hear you." Before starting this Movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter.

Satish Kumar: But he was praying . . . he was going to pray Hare Kṛṣṇa. He was devotee.

Prabhupāda: He was for political emancipation.

Satish Kumar: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that . . .

Satish Kumar: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: . . . these politicians, they do not grow vairāgya, even up to the point of death.

Satish Kumar: Yes, true.

Prabhupāda: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Panth . . . they stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither they did know that there is necessity of vairāgya. But Vedic philosophy says . . . all the ācāryas, they're all vairāgīs, either Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, they're all sannyāsīs. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All vairāgīs. Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairāgī. Even Lord Buddha, vairāgī. This is required. But where is the vairāgya? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairāgya. This is the first step, vairāgya, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syat (SB 11.2.42).

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

(Brs. 1.1.11)

That is sarva-dharmān parityajya. This is vairāgya.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya means vairāgya (BG 18.66).

Satish Kumar: Yes, means vairāgya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, we are embarrassed with so many dharmas—social dharma, political dharma, national dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, śūdra-dharma, so many. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharma.

Satish Kumar: All of them.

Prabhupāda: All give up. This is vairāgya. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā (SB 1.2.12). Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. The bhakti-yoga means, jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya there must be.

(aside) Can you find that verse?

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

(SB 1.2.11)

(break)

Pradyumna:

tac chraddadhānā munayo

jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā

paśyanty ātmani cātmānam . . .

(SB 1.2.12)

Prabhupāda: Paś . . . tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya. Without jñāna-vairāgya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then?

Pradyumna: Paśyanty ātmani cātmānam . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Pradyumna: . . . bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā.

Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. Śruta-gṛhītayā: by hearing from authority. Śruta. Gṛhītayā. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. This is the process. Tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā, paśyanty ātmānam ātmani, śruta-gṛhītayā . . . bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā (SB 1.2.12). This is the process.

Satish Kumar: By devotion, by listening, you receive and see the self . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: . . . in himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, within the self.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Ātmani ātmānam. (break)

Prabhupāda: What is the purport?

Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vāsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead . . ."

Prabhupāda: This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Never says by jñāna mām abhijānāti or by karma mām abhijānāti.

Satish Kumar: Only bhakti, yes.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: ". . . who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings: the karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogīs and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute Person. And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person."

Satish Kumar: Who are those three, jñānīs . . .?

Prabhupāda: Jñānīs, yogīs . . .

Satish Kumar: And karm . . .

Prabhupāda: Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs . . .

Satish Kumar: And bhaktīs.

Prabhupāda: So karmīs are not transcendentalist. They're materialists. But jñānīs, yogīs and bhaktas, they're transcendentalist.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. So jñānīs are third class.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānīs are . . .

Satish Kumar: Why?

Prabhupāda: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.

Satish Kumar: I see. They're intellectual.

Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.

Satish Kumar: Ah.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from the material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogīs. They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. And the first class are the bhaktas. They talk personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. You feel the presence.

Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhaktīnī?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee . . . she was a devotee.

Satish Kumar: Yes. She had this quality of presence.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Direct dialogue.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī"?

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper?

Satish Kumar: Resurgence.

Prabhupāda: Resurgence.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And that gentleman I talked with, he was also very intelligent, John. So this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because we are . . . in the jñānīs, they are also in the third grade, so how much the position of the bhaktas? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety.

They have nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). After being brahma-bhūta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas—the real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages—kaniṣṭha, madhyama and uttama. Just, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī, not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. It's a very high stage, too, reach.

Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London?

Satish Kumar: I have been on and off for two, three years.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Satish Kumar: And I will stay two or three more years.

Prabhupāda: So, you are family man?

Satish Kumar: Yes, this is my wife.

Prabhupāda: You're married here.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Children?

Satish Kumar: One child.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Satish Kumar: And we have called our child Mukti.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing . . . (laughter) Rūpa Gosvāmī says, bhukti-mukti-piśācī yāvat hṛdi vartate katham bhakti-sukham ātra (CC Madhya 19.176). Manifested, like that. That so long the piśācī . . . piśācī, you know?

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: The piśācī of bhukti and mukti. Bhukti means karmī's business, "I shall enjoy."

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as piśācī.

Satish Kumar: Really?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Ah, piśācī is witch.

Prabhupāda: Bhukti-mukti-piśācī yāvad hṛdi vartate.

Satish Kumar: "As long as . . .?"

Prabhupāda: "So long these two piśācīs are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti?"

Satish Kumar: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti, and then you can . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to go to mukti, and then bhakti. Just as I explained:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

(BG 18.54)

Satish Kumar: Ah.

Prabhupāda: So after being mukta. The bhakta is already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

So a bhakta is already brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). So he hasn't got to ask for mukti. He's already mukta. Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura says,

bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā yadi bhagavan syād

daivena phalati divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ

muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān . . .

(Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta 107)

And dharmārtha-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. Dharmārtha-kāma, this is karmī's position. And mokṣa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, my Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this dharmārtha-kāma, they're at my command." Simply by bhakti. The people are after dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90), so these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān dharmārtha-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ.

Devotee: Prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65).

Satish Kumar: (aside) Please . . .

But calling kṛṣṇārpaṇam, and calling mukti with bhukti piśācī is a rather strong expression. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, they can.

Prabhupāda: (laughs)

Satish Kumar: The attachment is bhukti, materialistic attachment, and mukti . . .

(break) I was very impressed with the account, how . . .

Prabhupāda: This will be New Gokula.

Satish Kumar: New Gokula. Hmm, hmm, it's very good.

Prabhupāda: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvīpa, New Jagannātha Purī, New Dvārakā . . .

Pradyumna: New Gayā . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . New Gayā, and this is the New Gokula.

(pause)

You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politician of India, they wanted the . . . from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some . . . always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan.

So, so far this Movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a Movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they're mūḍhas.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So India cannot be happy being guided by the duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ. It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi that, "You are . . ." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this Movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But then what Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request?

Prabhupāda: No.

Satish Kumar: No. Hmm.

Prabhupāda: But it did not go to his hand; of the hands of the secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister." That's all. (laughs)

Satish Kumar: Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Satish Kumar: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved?

Prabhupāda: That, that . . . Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to . . . village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal—to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal that, "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food and be satisfied there."

That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and be engaged in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. I agree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principle—from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that.

Devotee: (to guests) Some kṣīra?

Satish Kumar: Oh!

Prabhupāda: That's all. Don't give more.

(pause)

They actually, by destroying the Manchester mill owners, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmedabad mill owners. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one eight per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth—one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. Now same thing for thirty rupees.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmedabad capitalists. That's all.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes.

Prabhupāda: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire.

Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. Very true.

Prabhupāda: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness.

Satish Kumar: Quite true. And therefore nothing is working.

Prabhupāda: No.

(pause)

Satish Kumar: And not going by car, as you said. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: And you are not plucking your hairs?

Satish Kumar: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair.

Devotee: The whole head, you pull your hair?

Satish Kumar: Whole head, yes. It's extreme form of a . . .

Devotee: Austerity.

Satish Kumar: Ah?

Devotee: It's an austerity.

Satish Kumar: Yes. And then I came to . . . I left it, and came to Benares, and . . .

Prabhupāda: So when you joined this Sarvodaya movement? At Benares?

Satish Kumar: Yes. I was meet . . . I met Vinoba Bhave, and . . .

Prabhupāda: He's still living?

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy?

Satish Kumar: His philosophy is . . . he is a bhak . . . a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes in the village, and not going to a city. This is his principle, on the economic scale. And on the spiritual and religious, he's a brahma-vidyā. He's seeking brahma-vidyā. And he has, in Paunar, Brahma-vidya Mandir.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Satish Kumar: So he is . . . he is a follower of Śaṅkarācārya.

Prabhupāda: Mukti, bhukti.

Satish Kumar: Ah?

Prabhupāda: Mukti.

Satish Kumar: Mukti, yes.

Prabhupāda: Piśācī.

Satish Kumar: Hmm? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Bhukti-mukti-piśācī.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . of men. Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms," bhukti-ism and mukti-ism. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "Give up all these 'ism.' Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love.

Satish Kumar: Yes. To abhi . . . (So now . . .)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.)

Satish Kumar: Agya . . . (I shall leave . . .)

Prabhupāda: Phir aiye. (Please come again.)

Satish Kumar: Ha. Chaliye. (Surely. (aside) Let us go.) (end)