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691130 - Lecture on Sankirtan - London

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

691130LE-LONDON - November 30, 1969 - 83:37 Minutes


oṁ ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayācakṣur
unmīlitaṁ yena tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ
śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale
svayaṁ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṁ dadāti sva-padāntikam

(aside) You can bind it, some . . . something.

he kṛṣṇa karuṇā-sindho dīna-bandho jagat-pate
gopeśa gopikā-kānta rādhā-kānta namo 'stu te
tapta-kāñcana-gaurāṅgi rādhe vṛndāvaneśvari
vṛṣabhānu-sute devi praṇamāmi hari-priye
vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca
patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ
śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
hare kṛṣṇa hare kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa hare hare
hare rāma hare rāma rāma rāma hare hare

Ladies and gentlemen I thank you very much for your participating in this . . .

(aside) Finish it, that's all right.

. . . the saṅkīrtana movement. Today’s subject matter is kīrtana?

Devotee: Yes, saṅkīrtana process.

Prabhupāda: Saṅkīrtana. This word saṅkīrtana is a Sanskrit word. Sam means samyak, "complete," and kīrtana means "glorifying" or "describing." Kīrtaye. So this complete description means complete glorification of the Supreme, of the Supreme complete whole.

Kīrtana does not mean that you can describe anything or glorify anything, that will become kīrtana. From grammatical point of view, that may be kīrtana, but according to Vedic scriptures, when you speak of kīrtana, that kīrtana means describing the supreme authority, the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is called kīrtana.

Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam (SB 7.5.23). This devotional service begins from the method of śravaṇaṁ. Śravaṇaṁ means "hearing," and kīrtana, and "describe." One should describe and one should hear, or the same man himself can describe and hear himself. He doesn’t require any other’s help. Just like if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you chant and you hear. This is complete. This is complete method. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. But what is that chanting and hearing? Viṣṇu. Not of anything else.

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥsmaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam
arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁsakhyam ātma-nivedanam
(SB 7.5.23)

You can understand about Viṣṇu, or the all-pervading Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by these methods. What are these? Śravaṇaṁ, hearing. You have to hear. If you hear simply, that is the beginning. You don’t require any education; don’t require any development of knowledge. In any position. Just like this child, you have seen many times. As soon as she hears, immediately she response and dances.

So by nature God has given us this nice instrument, ear. You can simply hear, that’s all. But you must hear from the right source. That is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-samvido
bhavanty hṛtkārṇa-rasāyana-kathāḥ
(SB 3.25.25)

Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Satāṁ means "devotees," those who are devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are called satāṁ.

satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-samvido
bhavanty hṛtkārṇa-rasāyana-kathāḥ
(SB 3.25.25)

Tat-joṣaṇāt. If you hear from the right sources . . . right source means one must be realized soul; then it will act. Bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. This kaṭha means these wordings of God, or Kṛṣṇa, they become very relishable, palatable. Bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ. Rasāyanāḥ means "relief."Kathāḥ taj-joṣaṇād.

Now if you are intelligent enough, if you give your thought also, what is spoken by the realized soul, taj-joṣaṇād āśu. Āśu means "very soon," "immediately." Apavarga-vartmani. Apavarga means "release from material entanglement"; pavarga means "entanglement." In Sanskrit there are pa, pha, ba, bha, ma. Each word conveys some meaning. So they are called pavarga.

So apavarga-vartmani. The human life is meant for advancing on the path of liberation, apavarga. That is called apavarga, "not entangled." We are always entangled. To accept this material body means we are already entangled. Don’t progress in the process of entanglement. That process is karma. So long the mind will be absorbed in karma, you will have to accept this material body. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke (BG 8.6). At the time of death if your mind is absorbed—"Oh, I could not finish this work. Oh, I am dying. I had to do this. I had to do that"– that means Kṛṣṇa will give you another chance for doing that. You have to accept. You have to accept. He will give you time, "All right, you could not do it. Now you do it. You get this body."

Therefore Bhāgavata says:

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
(SB 5.5.4)

These rascals, they have become mad, pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means "mad," "intoxicated." Kurute vikarma, by intoxication they are acting something which they should not have done, but they are doing it. Why? Indriya-prītaya. Yad indriya-prītaya. Just like there is very good example, Mahārāja Dhṛtarāṣṭra.

Mahārāja Dhṛtarāṣṭra was planning some intrigue how to cheat the Pāṇḍavas in favor of his own son. So Kṛṣṇa sent His uncle to advise him not to do that. He understood, but he said, replied: "My dear Akrūra, whatever you are saying is quite all right, but it does not stand in my heart. So I have to. I cannot change my policy. I’ll have to follow this policy and let whatever it may, come."

So people become, when they want to satisfy their senses, they become mad, pramattaḥ. So in this madness they do everything. Just like we have got many instances in this material life that sometimes, when one is too much after something, he commits some criminal action, commits even murder. He cannot check himself. Similarly, we are being accustomed to sense gratification. We are mad, and therefore our mind is full absorbed in karma.

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
(SB 5.5.4)

So Ṛṣabhadeva says, na sādhu manye: "This is not good." Why this is not good? Because yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). This body, although temporary, it is the result of all, I mean to say, misfortune, miseries, kleśada. Kleśada means always giving trouble.

These things are to be studied. We should not be mad. Human life is not meant for that. That is the defect of the present civilization. They are mad after sense gratification, that’s all. They do not know what is the value of life—neglecting the most valuable life, human form of life.

And as soon as this body is finished, there is no guarantee what kind of body he is going to take next. Suppose in my next life, by chance, I get the life of a tree. For thousands of years I’ll have to stand up in one place. So they are not very serious. They even say, "What is there? Even if I stand up, I shall forget." Actually, forgetfulness, unless one forgets, he cannot stand up.

The tree, if it is not in forgetfulness, it is impossible. Suppose if you are asked, "You stand up for three days here," you will become mad, because you are not forgetful. So by nature’s law, all these lower grade of life, they are forgetful. Their consciousness is not developed. Even you cut, just like when you cut the tree, it does not like, but its consciousness is not developed, does not respond. Animal.

So this life, human form of life, we should be very careful. This movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for giving perfection to your life. It is a not a thing to bluff, or exploitation. But unfortunately people are accustomed to be bluffed. There is a verse by Indian poet, satya bole tomāre lata jhuta jagat bolaye: "If you speak nice thing, ’Today will be with lolahead,’ what nonsense you are speaking?"

And if you give them bluff, and cheat them, oh, they will be very glad. Yes. Jhuta jagat bolaye. So if you bluff that, "You make this, and you become within six month God, and you give me my fees," oh, they will be agreeable, "Yes, you take this fees, and I shall become within six months God." No. These things will not solve your problems. If you want actually to solve the problems of life in this age, then you have to take to this process of kīrtana. That is the recommendation, kīrtana. In this age, Kali-yuga: kalau nāsty eva, nāsty eva, nāsty eva gathir anyathā (CC Adi 17.21). You cannot execute any other process of self-realization or perfection of life except this: harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). The same thing: śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Viṣṇu and Hari, the same thing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ, and harer nāma eva kevalam. You will find in Vedic literature all the symmetries. There is no difference of opinion.

So this kīrtana, our subject matter, is essential in this age. In all śāstras, all Vedic literature, it is confirmed, kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt, kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ (SB 12.3.52). Meditation of the Supreme Absolute Truth, Viṣṇu. The same Viṣṇu, not anything else. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ. Dhyāna avasthita (SB 12.13.1). Dhyāna, dhyāna means "meditation."

yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra-marutaḥ stunvantidivyaiḥ stavair
vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ
(SB 12.13.1)

Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena . . . yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). So dhyāna, this dhyāna, this meditation process, was possible in kṛte, in the Satya-yuga—now it is not possible—when people used to live for many, many years. But nowadays will not believe, but sometimes there was, when people used to live for one hundred thousands of years.

At that time it is called Satya-yuga, and then meditation was possible at that time, because it takes them very, very long time. Just like Vālmīki Muni. Vālmīki Muni, he meditated for sixty thousands of years. So that is a long-term process, and it is not possible to execute in this age. If you make one farce, that is another thing. But actually if you want to meditate, it takes a very, very long time to make perfection.

So, kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁtretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ (SB 12.3.52). And in the next age by performing various kinds of sacrifices, ritualistic sacrifices, as recommended in the Vedas, that was possible. And dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ, the Dvāpara-yuga, next age, by temple worship, paricaryā. Kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt (SB 12.3.52). The same result you can achieve by this process, hari-kīrtana. Not other kīrtana. Because this hari-kīrtana was inaugurated, started . . . of course, hari-kīrtana is there always, but officially it was started five hundred years ago, from Bengal, by Lord Caitanya.

So in Bengal there is a competition between the Vaiṣṇavas and the śāktas. The śāktas also introduced a certain type of kīrtana, which is called kālī-kīrtana. But according to śāstra, there is no recommendation of kālī-kīrtana. Kīrtana means hari-kīrtana. Kīrtana means viṣṇu-kīrtana, no other kīrtana. You cannot say, "You are Vaiṣṇava; you can perform hari-kīrtana.

I shall perform śiva-kīrtana or devī-kīrtana or gaṇeśa-kīrtana."No. Śāstra does not say any other kīrtana. Śāstra says hari-kīrtana. Kīrtana means hari-kīrtana, hari-kīrtanāt. Similarly, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is said that kṛṣṇa-kīrtana. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the Twelfth Canto, you will find Śukadeva Goswāmī says:

kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann
asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥkīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
(SB 12.3.51)

Specifically mentions:

kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet
(SB 12.3.51)

If one simply takes to this kīrtana process, kṛṣṇa-kīrtana, kīrtanād eva, "only." This eva, this word is used to stress "only."Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Just like harer nāma eva, eva means "only."

So you will find everywhere. So this simple process, kṛṣṇa-kīrtana: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Sixteen words. Actually there are three words, Hare, Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, but they are very nicely arranged for chanting. So everyone can take and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, and that is practically proved. Since we have started this movement in the Western countries, all foreigners—Europeans, Americans, the Africans, the Egyptians, the Japanese—everyone is chanting.

There is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. They are chanting very gladly, and they are getting the result. So what is the difficulty? We are distributing it without any charges, and it is very simple, and simply by chanting you realize yourself, self-realization, God realization. And when there is self-realization, God realization, then there is this nature’s realization also, tasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti.

Just like if you try to learn one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten—nine and zero; one is already there—then your all whole arithmetic is studied. This ten figures. Because arithmetic means simply changing this place of one, two, three, four, five, six, eight, nine, that’s all. Similarly, if you simply study Kṛṣṇa, then your all knowledge is perfect. You don’t require any other endeavor to exert, to understand. Tasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. And that Kṛṣṇa can be understood simply by chanting this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

So why don’t you take this opportunity—the great opportunity offered to the human society. It is very scientific, authoritative, old, purāṇa. It is not that it is something concocted, introduced, say, for three or four years. No, don’t think. Just like I have several time repeated this Kṛṣṇa philosophy. Kṛṣṇa Himself says:

imaṁ vivasvate yoga
proktavān aham avyayam
(BG 4.1)

This is avyayam yoga. Avyayam means inexhaustive, indestructive, never lost, never destroyed. It may be covered for the time being, but it is never destroyed; therefore it is called avyaya. Avyaya means "inexhaustible," just like vyayaḥ means "expenditure." Just like you have got hundred pounds. Hundred, if it is spent one after another, then one day it comes to zero. That is bought, expended. But this is not that. If you cultivate this knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it will increase.

That is the recommendation by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu: ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Ānandā means "pleasure," "transcendental bliss" and āmbudhi, āmbudhi means "ocean." In the material world you have seen the ocean, but it does not increase; but here, if you culture this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your transcendental bliss will simply increase, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. And the process is . . . I shall always remind you that the process is very simple. Anyone can chant, anywhere, without any tax, without any loss; but the gain is very great.

So, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu explains about this kīrtana movement . . .

(break) . . . called ṣikṣāṣṭaka. Śikṣā means "instruction," and aṣṭaka means "eight." He has given us eight verses to understand this Krsna consciousness movement, and I shall try to explain. Please hear attentively. The first instruction is, the Lord says, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12, Śikṣāṣṭaka 1). I think I explained this several times, again, repeatedly. Just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa repeatedly, there is no, I mean to say, tiresomeness. These boys, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours, they will never get tired.

They will dance and they will chant. And you also, you try it. You will never get tired, because it is not material. In the material world, if you chant anything, any favorite name, for three, four or ten times, you will get tired. Yes, that’s a fact. But because it is not material, if you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, you will never get tired.

The more you chant, your heart will be cleansed from all material dirty things. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ (CC Antya 20.12, Śikṣāṣṭaka 1). And the problems of your life within this material world . . . these are simple words, but it requires lots of explanation.

What is the problem of our life? That you do not know. The modern education never gives enlightenment what is the problem of life. That is indicated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that those who are educated, advancing in knowledge, they should know what is the problem of life. The problem of life is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

(BG 13.9)

One should always feel the inconvenience of taking birth, janma; mṛtyu, inconvenience of death; jarā, inconvenience of old age; and inconvenience of disease. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So nobody is taking care. When one day they are diseased, they think, "All right. I am diseased. Let me go to the doctor, and he will give me some medicine. It will be cured."

But he does not take seriously, "But I did not want this disease. Why this disease is there? It is not possible to make me free from the disease?" He never thinks. That means the intelligence is very low grade, just like animal. Animal, it is suffering, but it has no sense. It is brought before the slaughterhouse.

If the animal is seeing that another animal is being slaughtered before him, but still he is satisfied with a morsel of grass. He’ll stand there eating the grass. This is animal life. He does not know that, "Next moment my turn. I shall be slaughtered." I have seen it. In a Kālī temple I have seen the goats are sacrificed. So one goat is already there for being sacrificed; another goat is very happy eating grass. That’s all.

So similarly, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, er, Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was asked by Yamarāja, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world? Can you explain?" So he explained, "Yes. What is that?"Ahany ahani lokāni gacchanti yama-mandiraṁ: "Every moment we see that our friends, our relatives, our fathers, our family members, our he or she died," śeṣāḥ sthitam icchanti, "but the others, they are thinking, ’I shall live for ever.’ He never thinks that 'I shall die'’ He is satisfied."

The same animal, he never thinks that, "At the next moment I will be slaughtered." He is satisfied with the grass, that’s all. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ (Hitopadeśa). He is satisfied with the sense gratification. He does not know that, "I am also going to die. My father has died, my mother has died, my grandfather has died, he has died, she has died—so I have to die. Then what is after death? Oh, no." So this is the problem, but they do not take it seriously. But Bhagavad-gītā indicates:

(BG 13.9)

That is real education. That is real education, to see that "I do not want to die. Why death comes?" That is real inquiry. "I do not want to become old man. Why old age comes upon me?" But they do not take it seriously. But Bhagavad-gītā says that this is the process.

So we have got problems, many problems, but this is the sum and substance of all problems:

(BG 13.9)

In order to solve the problems of your life, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ (CC Antya 20.12, Śikṣāṣṭaka 1).

Immediately, the blazing fire of problematic life is extinguished. As soon as your heart is cleansed by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, the blazing fire of material existence immediately . . . how it is immediately extinguished? Because cleansing of heart means you understand that "I do not belong to this material world."Brahma-bhūta (BG 18.54). That is ceto-darpaṇa. Now I am identifying with this material world: "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," because I am identifying with this material world. But if you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, you will realize that you are not . . . you are not this body. You do not belong to this material body or this material world, but you are spirit soul. You are part and parcel of the Supreme.

You are eternally related with Him. You have nothing to do with this material world. This is called liberation, knowledge. If I haven’t got to do anything with this material world, then that is liber . . . this knowledge, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Then I have no duty. Actually I have no duty. Because now I am identifying my existence, this body, with this material world, I have got so many duties.

So Bhāgavata therefore says that so long there is no self-realization, we have so many duties and debts also, devarṣi-bhūtāptaṁ nṛṇāṁ pitṝṇām (SB 11.5.41). We are debted to the demigods. Demigods means . . . don’t think it is fictitious; it is fact. Demigods we accept just like the sun, moon, the air. They are all demigods. Just like you have got director of a department. Similarly, for heating department the sun god is there; for air department the Varuṇa is there.

Similarly, there are departmental demigods. In the Vedas they are stated, they are controlling deities, so you cannot neglect them. Devas, ṛṣis. Ṛṣi means the great sages, philosophers, who have given us the knowledge. You are debted to them. And bhūta, ordinary living entities. So there . . . we are debtor. As soon as we take birth anywhere, we are debtor to so many things. But it is impossible to liquidate all these debts.

Therefore śāstra recommends:

sarvātmanā yaḥśaraṇaṁśaraṇyaṁ
gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kartam
nāyam ṛṇī ca na kiṅkaro rājan
(SB 11.5.41)

"My dear King, anyone who has taken shelter to the lotus feet of Mukunda," śaraṇyaṁ, "who is worthy." We take shelter. We take shelter of an officer. We take shelter of a physician. We take shelter of a lawyer when you are in trouble. We take shelter. Without shelter we are not existing, because the three-fold miseries are there: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. We have to take shelter. But the real shelter is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that:

sarva-dharmān parityaja
mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja
(BG 18.66)

"If you take shelter unto Me, you haven’t got to take shelter of so many things." So one does, sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). So this stage they taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa, the beginning is this chanting and hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). So our fervent request, humble request, to everyone who is present here and who is not present here, that is our very, very humble submission: padayor nipatya kṛtvā ca ahaṁ kāku-śataṁ bravīmi (Caitanya-candrāmṛta). "I am flattering you. I am just falling down unto your feet. Please accept this," he sādhavaḥ.

This is a verse by Prabhodānanda Sarasvatī, a great devotee of Lord Caitanya. He submitted this verse, that dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya: "My dear sir, I have taken a grass in my mouth, and I am falling down on your feet, and I am flattering you hundreds of ways,"ahaṁ bravīmi, "I am submitting something to you."

So those who are going to preach this philosophy, they have to adopt this means. Humbly, most humbly, submissive, padayor nipatya kṛtvā ca kāku-śataṁ ahaṁ bravīmi. He sādhavaḥ: "You are very nice man. You are very honest man, sādhu." Sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt! "You give up all these nonsense things! Any nonsense, give up. Simply,"sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam, "simply you submit unto the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Thank you very much.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (devotee offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Any questions?

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: (addressing audience) If you would like to ask, you may ask any questions of Prabhupāda that you may have to ask. Just please stand up and ask him; that is very nice.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: Why is it that you have not approached the politicians of your own country, Mrs. Gandhi, and . . . (indistinct) . . . and told them of the mantra, and asked them to implement saṅkīrtana throughout India and throughout the Eastern world before coming to the Western world?

Prabhupāda: Because you are a great politician; therefore I have approached you. (laughter) Is that all right? Do you think (laughing) that politicians will be able to help us? Yes. So we . . . I also approached Gandhi. I approached Mahatma Gandhi, that "Mahātmājī, you have got some influence over the world. Now we have got svarāja, independence. Now you give up politics. You preach Bhagavad-gītā.

Wherever you go, you take this Bhagavad-gītā, and your picture is there. Now you take seriously Bhagavad-gītā and you preach." You see? But the disease is so strong that even Mahatma Gandhi, in his later days, he was not liked by his disciples like Patel and Jawaharlal Nehru. He was interfering, and—it is a great story—and perhaps he was killed for that purpose. So the material attachment is so strong that even Mahatma Gandhi could not give up politics, and he died for it. That’s all.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for everyone, but it is for the fortunate person. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that one who has been freed, anta-gataṁ, "ended,"yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ, "sinful life":

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
(BG 7.28)

And one who is simply engaging in pious activities. So, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā: he can become freed from all kinds of dualities and engage himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He can. So it is very difficult also to accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because this is the condition. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. Pāpaṁ means . . . what do you mean by pāpaṁ? Sin. Just like what is criminality?

Criminality means disobedience of the state law. Just like even if you do not know what is the regulation. Just like in America, the cars are driven on the right side; here on the left side. So even without knowing that cars are to be driven on the left side, you drive on the right, you become a criminal—knowingly or unknowingly.

Actually, we commit sins by ignorance. So it does not mean a sinful man is always sinful knowingly. No—unknowingly. Similarly, people are engaged in so many humanitarian works, so-called humanitarian work, but they do not know that they are engaged in sinful activities. They do not know. They do not know that they are engaged in sinful activities. Anything in the karma jagat is sinful. That is . . . it is not that I am manufacturing.

You see in the Bhagavad-gītā: yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Simply you can act for yajña, or Viṣṇu. Otherwise you are criminal. That’s all. Either you become mahatma, this atma, that atma, if you do not act for Viṣṇu, or yajña, you are criminal. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28).

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not easy also. It’s very difficult. But it has been made easy by the grace of Lord Caitanya. He has simply given us this chanting process, "You chant." So any fortunate man who takes this seriously, he becomes freed from all sinful reaction and takes Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously.

Devotee: Haribol.

Lady guest: You said in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness just chant the mantra, and also that you can be . . . (indistinct) . . . fallen in this material world. Well, don’t you think that you’re mixing emotional . . . people being emotionally aroused and being spiritually aroused?

Prabhupāda: For a Kṛṣṇa conscious person there is no material world. Do you follow? For a Kṛṣṇa conscious person there is no material world.

Lady guest: Why is there this material world then?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that you have to understand.

Lady guest: But why?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I will say you. I will say you. For a Kṛṣṇa conscious person—try to understand me—actually there is no material world. Just like the sky. The sky is one. There is no second sky. But when the sky is covered, that is called clouded sky. Try to understand me. The sky is one, but somehow or other, when the sky is clouded, it is called clouded sky, and you cannot see the sun. Similarly, there is no material things. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (Īśopaniṣad mantra 1).

But when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material world. When you forget. Just like when you forget your state laws you are criminal. Otherwise there is no criminality. So this forgetfulness without Kṛṣṇa consciousness means material life and sinful life, and with Kṛṣṇa consciousness means there is no material life, there is no sinful life.

Lady guest: Well if everybody, when they come to the material world, and they all join your religion . . .

Prabhupāda: Material world means forgetful of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that’s all.

Lady guest: What happens to all the suffering . . . (indistinct) . . . suffering because it’s part of the material world.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: She says what about all the suffering. If everybody sings and dances, what about all people who are suffering?

Prabhupāda: Those who are singing and dancing, they are not suffering. You may be suffering. That’s all. They are not suffering.

Lady guest: Well what do you do about the suffering?

Prabhupāda: No. Nobody is suffering in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Lady guest: What about us then?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Lady guest: Well you are not suffering, but what about the other people?

Prabhupāda: Other people, let them take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that’s all.

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Why they are suffering? Let them take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are canvassing for that. Why don’t you take it?

Devotee: Is there anything you want, materially?

Prabhupāda: The only thing is forgetful of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that’s all.

Lady guest: Is the material world beautiful?

Prabhupāda: No, I told you. Just try to understand. Material world means forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all.

Lady guest: No, Kṛṣṇa consciousness can come in . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Where is material world? You do not understand what I explained. Actually there is no material world. When you are in forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa that is material world.

Guest: Kṛṣṇa consciousness makes the material world more wonderful. Why God created the material world in the first place?

Prabhupāda: You answer.

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Try to understand what Prabhupada is trying to explain is simply that everything to a personalized being everything is spiritual but it is due to forgetfulness that things become material. Just like the rays of sunshine but to those people clouds are up there it seem that the sun is not shinning but factually the sun is always shinning.

Similarly God or Kṛṣṇa, He is always there . . . (guest interrupting) . . . please wait just let me . . . and to a person who chants the mantra and takes to spiritual understanding he erases the dust or the clouds away so that he can always see Kṛṣṇa and his life becomes perfect and happy. The reason that it appears to you that there is a material world is simply because the clouds are in front of you. The material consciousness is still there. It is something that takes chanting, if you start chanting you will begin to see that the dust will disappear. The misery, the material consciousness will go the more you chant.

Guest: But . . . (indistinct)

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: No. Try and understand, try and understand that the point is not that there is not physical. There is physical, there is form but there is spiritual form and material form. You should understand that we do not say that there is no form. We say there is form but we say that form is spiritual, you see and it only becomes material when you forget Kṛṣṇa and you use the form to satisfy yourself.

Just like this microphone that Prabhupada is using it is spiritual because it is being used to glorify Kṛṣṇa but it can become material if it is used simply for someone's own sense gratification. Everything is spiritual when it is used in the service of God, or Kṛṣṇa but it becomes material when it is simply used to satisfy your body or your mind.

Guest: Yes, I see that. So you are saying that material things are spiritual really.

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Yes but it is misused. Everything has become misused in this world so now it has become material. When it is properly used again it will regain its original spiritual position.

Guest: It is just the use of what? . . . (indistinct)

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: If the use of each thing must be used spiritually for Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: So it still exist in a spiritual form to us because that's how we see it?

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The way to help people who are miserable is to teach them who they are so that they will understand who they are and who God is and what their relationship with the Supreme is then he will be happy, not simply by beating their body.

Guest: Yes sure but . . . (indistinct)

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Yes that is what Prabhupada is explaining. We are spirit soul. We are servants of God, parts and parcel of God. We are spiritual by nature but we have forgotten our original position and we think now that we are material or this body. Therefore we are unhappy because we only try and satisfy our bodies. So if we will remember that we are spiritual then we will learn to satisfy our soul. That is understanding who Kṛṣṇa is.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . spiritual?

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Yes then it becomes spiritual once again.

Question: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: She says what will happen if she leaves here now and sings and dances on her way home, some policeman will her see her and think that she is mad and will take her and lock her up.

Prabhupāda: So you better dance with us. (Laughter) The Policeman will not touch you. You dance with us.

Guest: I feel, I mean . . . (indistinct) . . . with the area in which I . . . (indistinct) . . . and several of the people . . . (indistinct) . . . they will not consider . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritual . . . (indistinct) . . . you have taken on Hindu religion . . . (indistinct) . . . ignoring they are material parts of the world . . . (indistinct)

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Excuse me Maam, then what you should do the best thing if you are interested in chanting this mantra is that you don’t need to dance. Like for instance when we come here sometimes we are chanting quietly to ourselves so that it does not appear, perhaps it will appear strange if we dance.

And then when we come into our temple or into a hall such as this then we dance where it would not be considered too much strange. But it is very strange on your way home when you are in your neighborhood. Then you simply chant softly to yourself and no one will take offence.

Guest: . . . take into account the material world.

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: No, ma'am. I am simply saying that if you feel that you need to take into account then you can do so but just as we chant in the middle of a street day in and day out and people are very much happy to see us and the police they go, "Oh Hare Kṛṣṇa." So they do not think that we are mad at all. In fact. Many people say: "What are you doing?"

And when we explain we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to all mankind they say: "That is very nice. Where is your temple so that we may come and find out more?" So, on the contrary neither do they think we are mad but they are interested to find out more. And I think if you would take to this you will find out that yes people will ask you what you are doing but if you have the answers, if you study carefully our philosophy they will be very much convinced and impressed by your condition.

Guest: Anyway, why are you afraid of the chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in this way even if you are taken to prison. What does it matter? Jesus Christ prayed to his Lord prayed to his God and he was crucified. He was killed for it. What is there to . . . (indistinct) . . . how many followers has he got? . . . (indistinct)

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Yes but you needn’t be killed for it simply dancing and singing.

Guest: . . . you will have all the followers. You will get a reward for it. If you are really convinced about Hare Kṛṣṇa, really convinced go and do what you like.

Prabhupāda: So you can chant peacefully now.

Guest: . . . (indistinct) (break)

(kirtan by Yamuna dasi) (break)

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: So you are all very kind for coming here today. And it is very nice that you have come. Because just see. There are so many millions of people living in this big city but only twenty-five of all have come. But, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness just one sincere person will come forward and take fully the learning about Kṛṣṇa then we can understand . . . (indistinct)

(aside conversation between Prabhupāda and Yamuna)

He will benefit so many millions of people thoughout the world. So in two weeks from today on the fourteenth. On the fourteenth of this month we will be officially opening our Radha Kṛṣṇa Temple on 7 Bury Place. And at that time the Deities with be installed in our Temple and there will be big feasting all day long. And we are inviting all of you to come at that time to join with us. For the most fortunate celebration.

14th, of December. And, I must say we have still much to do in our temple and it is very much at the mercy of Kṛṣṇa that we will get everything done. And similarly we have many temples throughout the world and we wish to open many others. And because all of you are so sincere that you have come here today I am going to put this big request upon you all. If there was more of you then it would be easier but now, very direct upon twenty five of you. You must come forward if you can to help us in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: People like this . . . (side conversation with Yamuna) there is no more, there is no more?

Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Just today I was told that if a person is very poor and takes to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is a chance that he might fall away. And if a person is very wealthy and take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is a chance that he may fall away. But, if a person is both happy, has the money and takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is a good chance he will last and never fall. So all of you seem very happy people and you also seem so very, very wealthy people. Therefore I would like to put the following request upon you. That you will all take part in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness at this time.

I will come around and I'm asking each of you to give large sum, a donation of . . . (indistinct) . . . one pound. And you may say that, that is very great and many time they come in here and this. But, I'll state to you that we have so many temples and we are teaching fifty of people to become God consciousness in this age. Once you people we are all the people teaching so simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and we need your help.

We need the financial support, so please I'll come around and see if you cannot give ten shillings to one pound at this time which will help us so much in constructing a very beautiful temple that will be open to the public 24 hours every day. So please take this chance to take an active part in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement it is for all people after all so we wish you to take part in it.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

(aside conversation in English and Hindi)

Guest: Can I come some time?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: In the evening.

Prabhupāda: Come after five. (aside conversation with Indian man) (break) (end)