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760627 - Conversation - New Vrindaban, USA

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His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760627GC-NEW VRINDAVAN - June 27, 1976 - 129.32 Minutes

(Garden Conversation)

Prabhupāda: So, any question from the newcomers?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman, he owns this house, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know him.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He mentions that he met you way back in 1966, in Tompkins Square Park.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

(pause) (break)

Prabhupāda: If you go somewhere, you must know first of all why you have gone there. That is the first question. If you go to a store, the first business is that you have gone to purchase some particular thing from the store. That is understood. Similarly, why one should go to a spiritual master? What is the purpose? Answer, any one of you.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One is . . . when one is confused and frustrated by this material existence, he wants to find an answer to his problems. So there are different authorities in the world offering solutions, but one has to find the actual authority.

Prabhupāda: That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu. Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru, or spiritual master. It is not a fashion, that "Everyone keeps a guru; let me also have a guru." Not like that. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam. After artha . . . just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church, four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks . . . actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Kṛṣṇa? Then he has to go to a person, guru. In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru. Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru.

But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog. If one does not seek after spiritual master, he's a dog. He's in the standard of dog. Because that inquiry is the particular business of human being, to inquire about the Supreme. If he does not inquire, that still he's on the platform of dog. First of all, you have understood it or not? So any human being with developed intelligence must go to a spiritual master. If he does not go, then he's still in the animal platform. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must. If he does not, then he is in the animal platform.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So if one is looking for a guru, but there are many people they are proclaiming themselves guru, and they are speaking "Supreme," "God," how may one tell the actual guru?

Prabhupāda: That is, if you want to purchase something, you must know where to purchase. Otherwise, you may be cheated. You, generally, you ask your friend that "I want to purchase some diamond, so can you give me some reliable address where I can go and purchase?" Generally, people do that. So you have to do that. If you want to purchase, you must know the preliminary understanding where diamond can be purchased. And if you are not aware of it, you may be cheated. That preliminary knowledge you must have. That means best thing is, those who are dealing with diamonds, you go there. Just like if anyone is inquisitive to understand God, so best thing is those who are dealing with God only, they have no other business. Then you go there. That is the intelligent. Why should you go to a cheater? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially distributing knowledge about God. So why do they not come here and inquire? First thing is, unless one is inquisitive to understand God, or Absolute Truth, he has no necessity of guru. But if he is actually serious, then he must go to a person where the dealing is only God. That's all. Just like ordinarily, if anyone wants to purchase some share of company, he goes to the share market and he sees the price of different shares, and he selects. So everything requires little intelligence, then it is all right. Otherwise, you may be cheated. Whatever business you do, you must do it intelligently. But if you are foolishly doing something, you may be cheated. Why we are opening so many centers all over the world? We are giving opportunity, people, to come and understand about God. Why do they not come here? Then he can make his judgment that "Here is the genuine party." And if one accepts some cheap God, that means he has no understanding about God. He's a rascal. If I say I'm God and somebody accepts me as God, then he's a foolish man. They do not know what is meaning of God. If one wants God, he must know at least what is meant by God. Every scripture, just like in Bible it is said, "God has created this universe." So if you come to me and accept me as God, why don't you test whether I have created another universe like this? Why you accept a cheap God who hasn't done anything? Simply he's bluff, and he says that "I am God." So why do you accept as God? Hmm?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I was going to get you a fan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the flies. That would be nice.

Hari-śauri: There's no fan here.

Prabhupāda: Why should we accept a cheap God? Everything requires intelligence. If you are not intelligent, then every transaction you may be cheated. Everyone has heard "God is great." So great means there should be nobody equal to Him and nobody greater than Him. That is greatness. So test that man whether he has no competitor, another God. Nowadays there are so many Gods. So God is great, why there is another competitor? This is intelligence.

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda? Can one make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, whatever we are talking you should understand, then bring another question. Don't puzzle. One question decide. Don't make it whimsical dictionary. Then it is not good. First of all decide one question clearly.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So the bona fide guru does not claim to be God, but he gives knowledge of God, and he only deals with God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bona fide guru.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru. In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back—he's very popular in the United States today—he says that everyone is guru and everyone is God.

Prabhupāda: And people accept that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. People are accepting.

Prabhupāda: Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru.

Devotee (2): Only if one hears from the right authority can one be guru. Has to be . . . spiritual knowledge is descending.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The premise of the Vedas is that there's a creator of everything.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a creator of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Origin of everything. The premise of these so-called spiritual masters . . .

Prabhupāda: No, this is a common sense. If everyone is God, then what is the necessity of finding out a guru? Guru means who explains about God. Everyone is God, then what is the use of explanation? There is no need of guru.

Devotee (2): How can God be controlled by His own energy, illusory energy?

Prabhupāda: So many things. Foolish men can accept that "Everyone is God, everyone is guru." That is foolish man's proposition and accepted by fools.

Devotee (2): It is explained in Back to Godhead magazine that a person who teaches how to serve Kṛṣṇa, how to serve God, is guru. Someone tells you that he is guru . . . (indistinct) . . . a dog. Back to Godhead magazine explains.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So to accept a spiritual master must mean that one is in ignorance and one is enlightened.

Prabhupāda: For ignorance there is no need of guru. An ignorance cannot inquire about God. Intelligent man can inquire about God.

Guest: We have to pick up our children . . . (indistinct) . . . thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Pick up children from a school?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From somewhere.

Prabhupāda: Do you know him?

Devotee (2): They're from Wheeling.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Once you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "If you are God, what will you do when I kick on your face?" Because if God is creating the sun, such a great planet in the sky, thousands of tons of energy, so if they are the source of the sun, but "What can they do if I kick in their face? Nothing. So how is that God?" Kṛṣṇa, when . . . someone was . . . Paundraka, he was saying he was God. He said, "All right, hold My cakra." And He took off his head. So to these false Gods we can say, "What will you do if we kick you in the face? You cannot save yourself."

Prabhupāda: That is the proper treatment. (laughter)

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. That if I desire to approach God, and if He's all-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing.

Prabhupāda: So?

Devotee (2): Yet they continue to claim like that, so . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, when God teaches Arjuna . . . his realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was saying that these people say, "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies.

Prabhupāda: But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him?

Devotee (2): Well, I don't accept it.

Prabhupāda: But you are advocating. Why do you accept this?

Devotee (2): He would say that he has turned his . . .

Prabhupāda: He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34).

Prabhupāda: No. God talks with whom? That is said. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānaṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām, one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him, a rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he might say, "But I love God."

Prabhupāda: He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say—he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense things. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10): "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith," God talks with him. So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says, "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense, you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some storekeeper says that "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And a person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service; and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks; therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think?

Devotee (2): I understand what you are saying.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you raise this question?

Devotee (2): It's a matter of argument also.

Prabhupāda: Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says, "Just now I went to Mr. Ford and talked with him. I'm coming back from him," so any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency, that we believe such thing. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense; why I shall accept nonsense? The same example: If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President," shall I have to believe? If he's a common man, how he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that?

Hari-śauri: We don't have a fan in here . . . I have go somewhere else. I have to bring a fan from somewhere else.

Prabhupāda: No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is? You bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad-gītā, how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Kṛṣṇa without spiritual master"? It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you, "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ (BG 10.10). Teṣām evānukampārtham (BG 10.11). Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not?

Devotee (2): I'm familiar with those verses.

Prabhupāda: Then why did you not say that "God talks with such-and-such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions?

Prabhupāda: But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why there are so many books? You do not read it; you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time?

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu prays that one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige. How do we lose that desire for false prestige?

Prabhupāda: Answer him.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Desire for false prestige? First of all, ceto-darpana-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The heart is full of so many dirty things, and basically all of these revolve around the bodily concept of life—I think I'm this body. Therefore we're desiring honor, we don't like to be dishonored; and looking for so many gains, we don't like to lose something. So there are so many dualities that exist: respect and disrespect, honor and dishonor. So when you become purified, freed from the bodily concept of life by chanting, then naturally honor and dishonor, they are not very important; they are only in relationship to the body.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Come nearer. Yes. Now argue, whether you are satisfied with his answer. If not, say it. In this way, discuss. Are you satisfied with his answer?

Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says that the Caitanya-caritāmṛta is the postgraduate study for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, hear him. What does he say?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the postgraduate study . . .

Devotees: Caitanya-caritāmṛta, postgraduate study.

Kulaśekhara: So if we're very attracted to reading Caitanya-caritāmṛta now, but we haven't finished Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, is that good? Or should we wait until we have studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam thoroughly?

Prabhupāda: It does not mean that one who is not postgraduate, he cannot read other books. Spiritual life is not a stereotype like that. But one who is not postgraduate, it is little difficult for him to understand the statement of . . . just like in the beginning of Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāj jagati para-tattvaṁ param iha (CC Adi 1.3), that there is no superior truth than Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you have not studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you'll not understand this statement. If you understand, "Yes, Caitanya is the Supreme Truth," then it is to be understood that you have graduated. And if you are not, then it will be difficult for you to understand.

Kulaśekhara: Then the more we understand Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the more we'll understand the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and if you understood Bhāgavatam thoroughly, then you can understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta. But if you have not understood Bhāgavatam, then you cannot understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta. The simple statement, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāt para-tattvaṁ param iha. Where is Caitanya-caritāmṛta? Bring.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Which volume, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: First volume. That means you are not reading, you simply are referring. This is the difficulty. Without thoroughly reading something, we bring so many questions. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore forbidden, bahu śāstra nā pore. Don't bother yourself reading so many books at a time. You'll be puzzled. Find out this verse, yad advaitaṁ brahmopaniṣadi tad apy asya tanu-bhā.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't believe there's an index in this first volume.

Prabhupāda: In the first chapter you'll find.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: In the first seventeen verses, "What is described in the Upaniṣads . . ."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yad advaita . . .

Prabhupāda: Yad advaitaṁ brahma-upaniṣadi. Go, find out.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

yad advaitaṁ brahmopaniṣadi tad apy asya tanu-bhā
ya ātmāntaryāmi puruṣa iti so 'syāṁśa-vibhavaḥ
ṣaḍ-aiśvaryaiḥ pūrṇo ya iha bhagavān sa svayam ayaṁ
na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāj jagati para-tattvaṁ param iha
(CC Adi 1.3)

"What the Upaniṣads describe as the impersonal Brahman is but the effulgence of His body, and the Lord known as the Supersoul is but His localized plenary portion. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself, full with six opulences. He is the Absolute Truth, and no other truth is greater than or equal to Him."

Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So will anyone be able to understand this verse? Hmm? Everything is stated there, what is Caitanya. Will everyone be able to understand it? That is the proof that he's not graduate. If he is graduate, then he should understand. Therefore it is postgraduate.

Kulādri: One must understand Bhagavad-gītā before Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is stated there, yad advaitaṁ brahma upaniṣadi. That means he must understand the Upaniṣads. He must understand what is Brahman. So without understanding this, how he can understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta? It will be explained there, but the fact is this. What is that? Is there any explanation?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no purport to this verse.

Prabhupāda: So further on there is explanation. Find out that.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How does one know when he has the understanding of the Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: What does he say? Answer him.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did you say?

Devotee (2): How does one know when he has the understanding of Bhagavad-gītā?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One has understood Bhagavad-gītā who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that "The essence of all knowledge is to surrender unto Me, to give up all other duties." So one who takes that instruction as life and soul, he has understood Bhagavad-gītā. Is that all right?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same verse again in the Second Chapter. (break) "The Upaniṣads, which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the Upaniṣads . . ."

Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? You are hearing?

Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the Upaniṣads can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life.

"The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman. Such realization is effected by gradual negation of material variegatedness. Impersonal Brahman realization is the partial, distant experience of the Absolute Truth that one achieves through the rational approach. It is compared to one's seeing a hill from a distance and taking it to be a smoky cloud. A hill is not a smoky cloud, but it appears to be one from a distance because of our imperfect vision. In imperfect or smoky realization of the Absolute Truth, spiritual variegatedness is conspicuous by its absence. This experience is therefore called advaita-vāda, or realization of the oneness of the Absolute.

"The impersonal glowing effulgence of Brahman consists only of the personal bodily rays of the Supreme Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Since Śrī Gaurasundara, or Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is identical with Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, the Brahman effulgence consists of the rays of His transcendental body. Similarly, the Supersoul, which is called the Paramātmā, is a plenary representation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The antaryāmi, the Supersoul in everyone's heart, is the controller of all living entities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, wherein Lord Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ: "I am situated in everyone's heart." (BG 15.15) Bhagavad-gītā also states, Fifth Chapter, twenty-ninth verse, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), indicating that the Supreme Lord, acting in His expansion as the Supersoul, is the proprietor of everything. Similarly, the Brahma-saṁhitā states, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35): the Lord is present everywhere, within the heart of every living entity and within each and every atom as well. Thus by this Supersoul feature the Lord is all-pervading.

"Furthermore, Lord Caitanya is also the master of all wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation because He is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is described as pūrṇa, or complete. In the feature of Lord Caitanya, the Lord is an ideal renouncer, just as Śrī Rāma was an ideal king. He accepted the order of sannyāsa and exemplified exceedingly wonderful principles in His own life. No one can compare to Him in the order of sannyāsa."

Prabhupāda: (aside) Not like that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Although in Kali-yuga acceptance of the sannyāsa order is generally forbidden, Lord Caitanya accepted it . . ."

Prabhupāda: (aside) On the head.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . because He is complete in renunciation. Others cannot imitate Him but can only follow in His footsteps as far as possible. Those who are unfit for this order of life are strictly forbidden by the injunctions of the śāstras to accept it. Lord Caitanya, however, is complete in renunciation as well as all other opulences. He is therefore the highest principle of the Absolute Truth. By an analytical study of the truth of Lord Caitanya, one will find that He is not different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. No one is greater than or even equal to Him. In Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): 'O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me.' Thus it is here confirmed that there is no truth higher than Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya.

"The impersonal Brahman is the goal of those who cultivate the study of books of transcendental knowledge, and the Supersoul is the goal of those who perform the yoga practices. One who knows the Supreme Personality of Godhead surpasses realization of both Brahman and Paramātmā, because Bhagavān is the ultimate platform of absolute knowledge. The Personality of Godhead is the complete form of sac-cidananda (full life, knowledge and bliss). By realization of the sat portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited existence), one realizes the impersonal Brahman of the Lord. By realization of the cit portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited knowledge), one can realize the localized aspect of the Lord, Paramātmā. But neither of these partial realizations of the Complete Whole can help one realize ānanda, or complete bliss. Without such realization of ānanda, knowledge of the Absolute Truth is incomplete.

"This verse of Caitanya-caritāmṛta by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī is confirmed by a parallel statement in the Tattva-sandarbha by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. In the Eighth Part of Tattva-sandarbha it is said that the Absolute Truth is sometimes approached as impersonal Brahman, which, although spiritual, is only a partial representation of the Absolute Truth. Nārāyaṇa, the predominating Deity in Vaikuṇṭha, is to be known as an expansion of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the object of the transcendental love of all living entities."

Prabhupāda: So is it clear? (laughs) It is not so easy. (laughter) Therefore it is postgraduate.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can these things be understood theoretically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or is realization required?

Prabhupāda: Realization required. What is the use of theoretical knowledge?

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, can realization be had through service without theoretical understanding?

Prabhupāda: This whole science is understood through service only. Everything becomes revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Revelation. Everything is revelation. Unless one is very sincere servant, there is no revelation.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it described a gradual process of realizing Kṛṣṇa, but does the devotee go through these levels of understanding Brahman then Paramātmā then Bhagavān?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? (microphone moving)

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It was described how the levels of understanding the Absolute—Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Does the devotee gradually go through these levels, or does he immediately realize Brahman when his service is perfect?

Prabhupāda: That depends on his capacity. (aside) Just on the head do it.

Devotee (2): Mahārāja Kīrtanānanda said that our actual realization comes through our actions. So we are, in building this New Vrindavan, we are actually . . . this is taken to be our preaching, or our life and soul.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: What is your question?

Devotee (2): My question is how do we . . .

Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, his question is will one become realized by continually engaging in devotional service under the direction of a bona fide representative of the spiritual master?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The question is that his service is here in New Vrindavan under Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Will serving the representative of the spiritual master . . . is that as good as serving the spiritual master? Will it get the same result?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that was the question. No? At least, I understand the question to be: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: That is the Absolute Truth.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Absolute means there is no difference. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's service, the same. So discuss it further.

Devotee: Is that to say that if one—brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11)—that if one simply goes on serving, engaging in all sorts of different activities for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, but he never, in this lifetime at least, has realization of Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān . . .?

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Hmm? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there; otherwise how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam: "Unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramātmā is the sun globe, and Bhagavān is the sun-god. This is . . . the sun is one example. From this example we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). As heat and light, all of them are the same . . . in the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramātmā. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramātmā, he can understand Bhagavān. But if you understand Bhagavān, then you understand Paramātmā, Brahman, everything.

Kulaśekhara: So we should simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Try to understand everything, but understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). And because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not understand Brahman, you do not understand Paramātmā. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then it is automatically understood. We have not understood Brahman, Paramātmā, because we have not understood Kṛṣṇa properly. Kṛṣṇa says, aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the source of everything." So Brahman is also from Kṛṣṇa, Paramātmā is also from Kṛṣṇa. And so other Bhagavāns—there are so many Bhagavāns also—they are from Kṛṣṇa.

So if you understand Kṛṣṇa you can understand everything. And as soon as you say that you have not understood it, therefore you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. Just like Māyāvādīs, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore they do not understand Brahman also. And therefore they fall down, because they have not understood either Brahman or Kṛṣṇa. Patanty adhaḥ. This is stated in the śāstra. Anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), because they have not understood Kṛṣṇa, even they have gone up to the Brahman, they cannot stand there; they fall down. Again they come to the material world. The Māyāvādīs, they say, brahma satyma jagan mithyā: "Brahman is truth, and this material world is false." They take sannyāsa, but after some time they fall down, again take to other businesses than Brahman in the material world. Just like our Vivekananda. He came to the Western countries to preach Vedānta, and he has advertised that "Whole America has become Vedāntist." The proof of Vedānta is when he returned to India he became very enthusiastic to open hospitals, like the Christian missionaries. So if the material world is false, so why he's trying to open hospital? Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Jagat is mithyā. So why in the mithyā platform he's taking credit by opening hospital?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God.

Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithyā. If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithyā, it is false? If it is mithyā, then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithyā? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithyā? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithyā. We say suffering is not mithyā; it is fact. But if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithyā or this world is mithyā. We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Kṛṣṇa, not as mithyā; it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithyā? By offering . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26): by offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithyā? Māyāvādīs' philosophy, it is mithyā. With mithyā we can approach the satya? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Kṛṣṇa says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithyā? It is not mithyā. It is satya. When it is satya? When it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithyā. That is mithyā. You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Kṛṣṇa, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithyā? You cannot approach Kṛṣṇa with something mithyā. Then Kṛṣṇa becomes mithyā. There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Kṛṣṇa with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). So under Kṛṣṇa's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Kṛṣṇa in this flower. So Kṛṣṇa has made this; this is Kṛṣṇa's property; it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithyā to Kṛṣṇa. It is fact.

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā
mumukṣubhiḥ parityago
phalgu vairāgyaṁ kathyate
(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256)

It is made by Kṛṣṇa. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch it," you may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. So you have to study deeply. Everything is . . . ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. And without Kṛṣṇa, if you understand brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, then you fall down.

Kulādri: But it seems, then, you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding.

Kulādri: Then what does it mean, gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization?

Prabhupāda: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky . . . go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say "so'ham," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky, will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (1): Even Brahman has to be understood . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham (BG 14.27).

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now wherefrom this fragrance have come?

Devotees: From the earth.

Prabhupāda: Get out this fragrance from earth, you scientist. By Kṛṣṇa's manipulation here is fragrance. Everyone knows it has come from earth. If there is, in the earth, there is no such fragrance, wherefrom it came? So therefore it is there, it is understood, but you get it out.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, we can take the chemicals and mix them, produce fragrance.

Prabhupāda: Take the chemicals?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. We can analyze the chemical structure and make . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact, the flavor is there within the earth. You take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva-kāma dugha-mahī (SB 1.10.4). Mahī means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Kṛṣṇa's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Kṛṣṇa's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa's manipulation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, ḍāl, āṭṭā, ghee. But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Kṛṣṇa. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the āṭṭā with water then put ghee and then put rice. (laughter) This is the . . . we have to become expert. If you become expert, then you'll do very nice purī, ḍāl, rice . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many varieties. You enjoy. And if you are not expert, you'll spoil. So Kṛṣṇa is expert and Kṛṣṇa bhakta is expert, because he takes lesson from Kṛṣṇa. So for them this is not mithyā. Rascals who spoil it, they think it is mithyā. He could not do anything. He mix with a conglomeration, and because he could not get any result, he said mithyā. Disappointment. And one who knows, he knows how to utilize it. Just like we are utilizing the cows in so many nice preparations, and these rascal killing them. Finished.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And then they want to say that this is mithyā, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mithyā.

Prabhupāda: Whatever they say, practically see.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. They do not know how to use the cow, only kill.

Devotee (4): You said that is the sour grape philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Grape philosophy? What is that?

Hari-śauri: Sour grapes.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The fox . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: . . . wanted to taste the grapes, but he couldn't, so he said they are no good.

Prabhupāda: You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, then we also become expert to some extent. And Kṛṣṇa's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66)? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Kṛṣṇa's expertly manipulation. So if we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10): "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, ḍāl, and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Kṛṣṇa's instructions and make everything nice. Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. This is Kṛṣṇa. And He is personally taking care. So why the Kṛṣṇa's devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the item of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs; we are keeping cows, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa did not keep so many dogs, as nowadays so many big, big men, they are keeping dogs. Kṛṣṇa did not do so. If we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has instructed us, then we become perfect.

Devotee (5): How can we perfectly follow only what Kṛṣṇa has said? The other evening you said that the patient, he is always a fool and a rascal.

Prabhupāda: Answer him.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But one should not remain a fool and a rascal. If the doctor has given the formula, you have to follow it. He says "Don't eat this but stay in bed, sleep so much," you have to do it, otherwise you will stay sick.

Prabhupāda: You'll remain a rascal if you don't follow the instruction. So what do you want? You remain a rascal or make advance? What you want? Huh?

Devotee (5): To become advanced.

Prabhupāda: Then follow. If you willfully remain a rascal, that is the difference. Otherwise, if you follow you'll become advanced. Everywhere you'll find Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. He says mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). They explain, "Nature." But they cannot explain what is nature. We can explain. Nature is a system which is being handled by Kṛṣṇa. That is real understanding. Nature, we can see that from nature this flower is coming, this flower is coming. But why not . . .? They say accidentally. If it is accident, why in the plant of this flower sometimes rose is not coming accidentally? And why from the rose plant not accidentally this flower is coming? So where is the question of accident? You have never experienced such accident. The same plant, the same flower is coming. Where is a proof by accident another flower has come? Where is the proof? So why do they say like that, "accident"?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Because they don't want to accept God.

Prabhupāda: No, no, accept God or not, where the accident theory comes?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well if they don't give some explanation, then they'll be considered fools.

Prabhupāda: Some explanation, they have to give you something foolish explanation? So foolish man will accept that, not a sane man. If you say "by accident," then I'll say why not accident in the history of the world there is a rose plant some other flower has come out? If man has come from monkey, why not coming now? So they give so many foolish propositions, only fools will accept. Anyone who has a little reasoning power they will not . . . they'll understand that these are all crazy fellows, talking all nonsense. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). We have got little formula to understand that if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious he has no good qualifications. He cannot say anything as a qualified person. That is the test. Mūḍha. Immediately take: a mūḍha. Let the mūḍhas speak all nonsense. Why should we waste our time? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as we find somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we take, reject. He's a rascal, that's all. And he is rascal. Not only blindly we are rejecting, but with reason. (break)

So one learned brāhmaṇa, he said, "All right sir, namaskār your Kṛṣṇa. I cannot believe all these things." And the cobbler, he began to cry: "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is so great, He can do anything." So he, Nārada Muni asked, he saw the learned brāhmaṇa refused to accept, and this cobbler is so absorbed that he's crying, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa can do anything." So he asked him, "Do you believe this?" "Yes, why not?" "So how do you believe it?" "Now I'm sitting under this banyan tree, and so many banyan fruits are falling down, and I can see there are hundreds and thousands of seeds within the fig, and each seed contains a banyan tree. So why can I not believe? If within this seed a big banyan tree can be kept, what is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa to pull the elephant through the hole of a needle?" He has got reason. He is not blindly believing. How the scientist, who does not believe in God, he can explain that within the small seed there is a big banyan tree? Let them do that. By chemical composition make little seed. As I told, make little egg. They cannot do anything. Still they are so proud.

Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Kṛṣṇa said in Bhagavad-gītā.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa, and yet in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija-bandhu," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse He says, "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas, the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater?

Prabhupāda: You do not understand it?

Devotee (1): I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders.

Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the . . . any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that?

Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go. Does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, śūdra. So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, so Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam. That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank.


Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam, personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā. Maryādā means "honor." That must . . . that varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs—everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda. Just see even in this flower. This is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says, "I am accepting even the leaf in this garland," then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Kṛṣṇa says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland: I am accepting everything. Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Kulādri: In a democracy they say everyone is . . .

Prabhupāda: Nonsense democracy. What is . . .? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter) Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president.

Kulādri: That's what they've done, now the śūdras . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done? Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say, "I think like this," you'll say, "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this. Where?

Devotees: Melbourne.

Prabhupāda: Melbourne. The United Nation is an assembly of barking dogs, I've said that, (laughs) and they published it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "His Divine Grace has come to hound us."

Devotee (2): There is a so-called spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is giving meditation courses to them.

Prabhupāda: That is another cheating. In meditation,whatever nonsense they are doing, you don't know, nobody knows. That's all. Bhava satrugna. "If you become dumb, you have no enemy." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. "A rascal is beautiful so long he does not speak." So better meditation; don't speak. Nobody will detect you. This is going on. If you speak, then you'll be detected what you are. And if you sleep by posing meditation, then nobody will ask, "What you are doing, nonsense?" This is meditation. Meditation is another cheating. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja has detected. Hmm? Find out this verse, Seventh Canto.

Hari-śauri: This Śrī Chinmoy is supposed to be this resident guru at the United Nations . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be, but we have got our own formula to understand.

Hari-śauri: He did a practical demonstration of what he said a person who is in touch with God can be capable of doing if he allows himself to become an instrument of God. So for eight months he painted continually, and he produced 27,000 paintings, and he said that this was proof that he was God-realized.

Prabhupāda: Mauna. The word begins with mauna.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maunam, like in "silence." Mauna-vrata-śruta-tapo-adhyayana?

vyākhya-raho-japa-samādhaya āpavargyaḥ
prāyaḥ paraṁ puruṣa te tv ajitendriyānāṁ
vārtā bhavanty uta na vātra tu dāmbhikānām
(SB 7.9.46)

"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are ten prescribed methods on the path to liberation—to remain silent, not to speak to anyone, to observe vows, to amass all kinds of Vedic knowledge, to undergo austerities, to study the Vedas and other Vedic literatures, to execute the duties of varṇāśrama-dharma, to explain the śāstras, to stay in a solitary place, to chant mantras silently and to be absorbed in trance. These different methods for liberation are generally only a professional practice and means of livelihood . . ."

Prabhupāda: Means of livelihood.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . means of livelihood for those who have not conquered their senses. Because such persons are falsely proud, these procedures may not be successful."

Prabhupāda: You can get some prestigious position from another rascal, but that will not solve the problem. What is the purport there?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "As stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 6.1.15):

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā
aghaṁ dhunvanti kartsnyena
niharam iva bhāskaraḥ

"Only a rare person who has adopted complete, unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa can uproot the weeds of sinful actions with no possibility that they will revive. He can do this simply by discharging devotional service, just as the sun can immediately dissipate fog by its rays." The real purpose of human life is to attain liberation from material entanglement. Such liberation may be achieved by many methods - tapasa brahmacāryeṇa śamena ca damena ca (SB 6.1.13) - but all of them more or less depend on tapasya, austerity, which begins with celibacy. Śukadeva Gosvāmī says that those who are vāsudeva-parāyaṇa, who have fully surrendered to the lotus feet of Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, automatically achieve the results of mauna (silence), vrata (vows), and other such methods, simply by discharging devotional service."

Prabhupāda: Take, for example, mauna. Mauna means don't talk rubbish. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. So mauna is meant for them who cannot talk about Kṛṣṇa. Better stop talking. Mauna-vrata. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he'll talk all nonsense. So sometimes the spiritual master says that "You remain silent for twelve years." So (laughter) instead of talking nonsense, you remain silent for twelve years. That is mauna. Because as soon as you'll talk, you'll be captured where you are. Better not to talk. This is mauna-vrata. But one who is devotee, why he'll not . . .? He'll talk about Kṛṣṇa. Vācāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). Always talking about Kṛṣṇa. Why he should be silent? If he remains silent, then people will not get the benefit. Let him speak always of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): whomever you meet, you simply talk about Kṛṣṇa, what He has taught in the Bhagavad-gītā, you become guru. So why guru will stop? Guru will speak. But what kind of speaking? What Kṛṣṇa has spoken. Not nonsense. Not like that: "I have painted so many pictures, therefore I have become God-realized." Where Bhagavān says "By painting pictures one may . . ." He does not say. Kṛṣṇa does not say. He has invented this. So therefore our test is, whether he's a bona fide guru, whether he's talking what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then he's guru. Otherwise a rascal. That's all, finished. Why should we bother? This is the test. If he's speaking, repeating the same thing, what Kṛṣṇa said, then he's guru. If he's talking something else, then he's rascal. Immediately take it. If you know this art, how to detect the rascal and guru, the test is already there. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So guru will say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say that "I have become Kṛṣṇa. You simply surrender to me." To surrender to Kṛṣṇa means surrender to guru also. You'll learn it. So "Kṛṣṇa is now dead; now I have become Kṛṣṇa," this is rascal, immediately.

So to test a guru and a rascal, there is no difficulty if you are well conversant with the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. There is no question. Kṛṣṇa says, ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). This confidential knowledge, what is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), one who is teaching this confidential knowledge—"Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa"—Kṛṣṇa says, "Ah, he is My dearmost friend." So you become dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa says. Why do you speak all other nonsense things? You immediately become the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. And if you manufacture, then you are a rascal. Why shall I accept a rascal? We shall accept the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa as guru. That is wanted. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, when He was asked by a gṛhastha devotee what should be the behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He immediately said, asat-saṅga tyāga, ei vaiṣṇava ācāra (CC Madhya 22.87): "Give up the company of all rascals, asat." Asat means those who are rascals. That is Vaiṣṇava. Do not mix with all rascals, asat. Now how shall I know who is rascal and who is not a . . .? Asat eka 'strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa-bhakta āra. One who is too much attached with woman, he is rascal. Another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

So we have got everything test tube. Put the test tube and you understand. If one is strī-saṅgī . . . strī-saṅgī means not only the man. The man or woman, one who are very much sexually attached, he is a rascal. One should give up his company. And another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, asat-saṅga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava: don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī.

So the preacher is madhyama-adhikārī. A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. Who is in the lowest stage of devotional service, he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat. And madhyama-adhikārī, he knows how to deal with asat. At least he does not mix with them. That's all. If he cannot defeat them, he should avoid them, because that valuable time can be utilized for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to a person who is inquisitive to hear. Bāliśya. Bāliśya means innocent. He wants to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Better deal with him than with the rascals and waste time. Better avoid the rascals. Just like in hospital, emergency cases, the doctors, when they see that this patient hopeless, he does not take care anymore. But when there is hope, they give medicine and try to . . . the hopeless condition, better not. Don't talk with them. That's all. That is vaiṣṇava-ācāra. Then he'll remain safe. Hopeless person, don't waste your time talking with them. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca. Four observations. Bhagavān—īśvara; prema—love; and prema-maitrī, friendship with devotees; and kṛpa, mercy to the innocent person; and upekṣā, no more talking. Don't waste time talking with all these nonsense. Better utilize, properly utilize the time by instructing a person who is innocent and eager to hear. Like that. So this mauna-vrata-tapas-śruti . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

vyākhya-raho-japa-samādhaya āpavargyaḥ
prāyaḥ paraṁ puruṣa te tv ajitendriyānām
(SB 7.9.46)

Prabhupāda: These things are meant for ajitendriyānām, who could not control the senses. Ajitendriyānām. And who has engaged his senses in the service of the Lord, they are not ajitendriya. If you have engaged your mind in Kṛṣṇa—the mind is the king of senses—then your senses cannot be misled. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha (SB 9.4.18). Then if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, man-mana bhava mad bhakto, then what you'll speak except Kṛṣṇa? If you speak nonsense, that means your mind is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The mind is the center of all sensual activities. So if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, how we can talk nonsense? Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. He'll be always engaged in talking about Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So if we keep our mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no question of mauna, because we'll have to talk about Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I remain mauna? If we talk about Kṛṣṇa, or what Kṛṣṇa has said, then I am benefited, and the audience, he is also benefited. Take Bhagavad-gītā and talk. So those who are Kṛṣṇa devotees, they will gladly hear. Those who are inquisitive, innocent, they'll also hear. And the dviṣāt, those who are envious, they'll go away. That's good, clear. Talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. Don't talk anything else.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can we give up our enviousness and reluctance to serve the spiritual master and the other devotees?

Prabhupāda: Answer him.

Dhrstadyumna: One can free himself from envy by serving. You serve the devotees and follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way the mind becomes your best friend.

Prabhupāda: A devotee is never envious of another devotee. He is not a devotee. Tad-adhīneṣu maitrī (SB 11.2.46). One who is devotee, we have to make friendship with them. How we can hate them?


Devotees: Jaya, all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya, haribol. (offer obeisances) (kirtan) (end)