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740331 - Morning Walk - Bombay

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His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740331MW-BOMBAY - March 31, 1974 - 75:57 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . your attachment. And that is also stated in the Fourth . . . vīta-rāga-bhaya . . . (BG 2.56) Man-mayā mad-āśrayaḥ . . .

Mr. Sar: Samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1).

Prabhupāda: So this is the process. If you want to know God—Kṛṣṇa means God—then this is the process. What is that? Mayy āsakta.

Dr. Patel: Mayy āsakta-manāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Mayy āsakta.

Dr. Patel: Mayy āsakta-manāḥ partha . . .

Mr. Sar: Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: This is yoga practice also. Yoga. Yoga means to concentrate the mind on a subject matter. So we should meditate upon Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta. Then gradually you'll increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. And that is the perfection of life. The perfection of life, the symbol is in Vṛndāvana. Because all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, they were very, very much attached to Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: Attached to Kṛṣṇa were.

Prabhupāda: The cowherd boys, the girls, the elderly persons, the trees, the flowers, the land, the birds, the beasts, the cows—their center was Kṛṣṇa. So we have to follow their footprints, how to . . . we have got already attachment.

Mr. Sar: Yes. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: No, attachment we have got for material things. That we have to transfer. This is yoga practice.

Mr. Sar: That is yoga practice. Correct.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yoga indriya-saṁyamaḥ. Yoga, the . . . I think it is Patañjali sūtra.

Indian man (1): Yoga citta bhūti yoga.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Citta bhūti . . .

Indian man (1): Yoga citta bhūti nirodha.

Prabhupāda: Nirodha. So our activities are now materially centered—how to satisfy the senses. All these so-called improvement, material improvement, means how to satisfy the senses. So this aśaktiḥ, attachment, for material sense gratification . . .

Indian man (2): Has to be transferred.

Prabhupāda: To Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Mayy āsakta-manaḥ partha. This is yoga. This is bhakti-yoga.

Mr. Sar: It is said, jñānaṁ te sa-vijñānam.

Prabhupāda: But it can be done mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśrayaḥ, to take shelter. "Taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa," you can make this meaning, or mad-āśrayaḥ means "one who has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa."

Mr. Sar: Kṛṣṇa. Correct. Correct. That is correct.

Indian man (1): Mad-āśrayaḥ means āśrayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Either you . . . directly it is not possible to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore mad-āśrayaḥ means "One who has taken shelter of Me." That is paramparā system. You take shelter of Him. Then the result will be asaṁśayaḥ.

Passerby: Hello.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Asaṁśayaḥ means at the present moment . . .

Indian man (1): Without any doubts.

Prabhupāda: No . . . people are in doubt whether there is God, or "If there is God, He might have died by this time." So there are so many . . . (laughs) Yes. When I first went to USA, the theory was, "God is dead." But when I began to speak, they realized, "No, God is not dead. God is with Swāmījī." They wrote. They wrote articles. So asaṁśayaṁ . . .

Mr. Sar: Samagraṁ māṁ. From all aspects.

Prabhupāda: From all aspect. Yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu. So Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Himself. We can speculate about God. That way we'll never be successful, because we have got limited senses. Therefore you hear from Kṛṣṇa about Kṛṣṇa. This is called bhakti-yoga.

Mr. Sar: And He wants to tell the jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānam (BG 7.2). "What I have realized, I tell you."

Prabhupāda: No, not realized.

Indian man (1): Experienced.

Prabhupāda: Sa-vijñānam, how it can be practically applied.

Mr. Sar: Yes, how it can be practically applied.

Prabhupāda: Not that he has realized. He's God. He's already realized.

Indian man (1): Sa-vijñānam means . . .?

Dr. Patel: Matter of knowing, application.

Mr. Sar: Application.

Prabhupāda: Practical.

Mr. Sar: Practical application.

Prabhupāda: Just like practical science. If you want to pass B.A. examination, you have to appear for theoretical and practical, both.

Dr. Patel: Theory and practice both.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this bhakti-yoga means to know God, at the same time, practically employ yourself in the service of God, or in the transaction between God and yourself. That is vijñānam. Sa-vijñānam.

Indian man (1): What is the distinction between jñāna and vijñāna?

Prabhupāda: Jñāna means theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practical knowledge. Simply to know "God is great," that is not sufficient.

Indian man (1): No, that is theoretical.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is theoretical. You must know how great He is. That we have to learn from the śāstras, from the guru, how great He is. Just like in the Brahma-saṁhitā, Vedic, yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante (Taittirīya Upaniṣad 3.1). He's the source of all material elements. In Him everything stays, and after annihilation, everything goes into Him. This is one understanding. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).

Mr. Sar: Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān.

Prabhupāda: In this way, from Vedas, from guru, from saintly persons, we have to understand. Sādhu guru śāstra vākya. Sādhu means who speaks strictly on the śāstra. Guru also speaks strictly on śāstra. Śāstra is the media. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim avāpno . . . (BG 16.23). Therefore we protest. Unless there is something mentioned in the authorized śāstras, we don't accept it.

Indian man (1): Is it nityaḥ anityānām or nityaḥ nityānām?

Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām. Plural number.

Dr. Patel: Plural, yes.

Indian man (1): No, no, that's right.

Prabhupāda: Plural number.

Indian man (1): Permanent. Permanent, impermanent.

Prabhupāda: Both of them permanent. No, no, no. Permanent . . . the jīvas and the Supreme Lord, both of them are permanent, nityā. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Just like nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. Eternal, always existing. And this material world has been described: asasvataḥ. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvataḥ.

Dr. Patel: Aśāśvatam.

Prabhupāda: Aśāś . . . it is not permanent. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). It appears and disappears. So because nityo nityānām, there is transaction between the nitya, the supreme nitya, Kṛṣṇa, and the . . .

Dr. Patel: Cetanaś cetanānām.

Prabhupāda: . . . and the subordinate nityas, the living entities. So there must be one place also where this transaction takes place. Because this is anitya. This material world is anitya. So how the transaction between the nitya and nityānām can take place? Because the place is anitya. Therefore there must be a place which is nitya. There must be place. That is Vaikuṇṭha dhāma, spiritual world. So by practicing bhakti-yoga scientifically, by practical understanding, practical application, yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ, either at the shelter . . .

Mr. Sar: Anyaj jñātam neha bhūyo . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mr. Sar: Anyaj jñātam avaśiṣyate.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Then anyaj jñātavyam. No. Then you become perfect. No more knowledge.

Mr. Sar: No more knowledge is required.

Prabhupāda: Yes, knowledge is perfect.

Mr. Sar: Final

Prabhupāda: Final, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yasmin vijñāte sarvam etaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). This is also Upaniṣad. Yasmin vijñāte. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti, then you have got full knowledge. And that is also stated in the Fourth Chapter: janma karma me divyam yo janāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . . . (BG 4.9). He becomes immediately liberated. Simply if you understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, tattvataḥ, in truth, then you are . . . your business is finished.

Mr. Sar: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ (BG 7.3).

Prabhupāda: Yes. To understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. First of all, so many millions and millions of living entities are there. They are not interested. They are just like animals: "Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy." Nobody's interested what is the success of life, siddhi. They do not know. They think, "If I . . ." Now, especially in this age, if you can eat sumptuously then it is siddhi, all siddhi (laughing). Yes. Udāraṁ bharita, svārtham udāraṁ bharita. That just we see people are so lazy. If they can eat their daily food some way or other, begging, borrowing and stealing, just like animals . . .

Dr. Patel: They have got ūdara-śiṣṇu-parāyanaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Parāyanaḥ. So they think, "Now my day's business is finished. Now I have eaten." And dakṣyaṁ kuṭumba-bharaṇam. And if one man can maintain a family of four, five men, "Oh, he's Mahārāja Dakṣa." Mahārāja Dakṣa, you know? He was a great personality. He was performing yajñas. So this is Kali-yuga. Even they will not be able to maintain a wife, a few children. There is no shelter. I have seen in . . . all these things in Western countries. They have no fixed up. Just like animal. The animal also loitering in the street or in the jungle; they are loitering in a great jungle, a great city, that's all.

Mr. Sar: Yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the Māyāvādīs cannot understand. Although they have come to the point of siddha, still they cannot understand. Yatatām api siddhānām. They are siddhas because they have understood that, "I am not this body. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This much they have understood. But still they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Yatatām api siddhānām. Although they are trying . . .

Dr. Patel: Kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah, tattvataḥ. They do not know. They say: "Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra." "Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra." "God is nirākāra." "I am as good as God." These theories, encumbrous theories . . . because they do not know yatatām api siddhānām.

Dr. Patel: Kaścin māṁ vetti . . .

Mr. Sar: Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ . . . (BG 7.4).

Prabhupāda: So when one has come to this knowledge perfectly that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi," that is brahma-bhūta stage. So, so after brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) stage, there are so many other things. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54).

Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu.

Prabhupāda: These bhūteṣu.

Mr. Sar: Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām.

Prabhupāda: Then he comes to the bhakti-yoga. Not that only daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā, not dhani-nārāyaṇa-sevā.

Dr. Patel: (laughs) You came out with that.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is, that is the deficiency. If daridra is Nārāyaṇa, why not the dhani?

Dr. Patel: Again, we are not . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to accept. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. A devotee is equal, either he's daridra-nārāyaṇa or dhani-nārāyaṇa.

Mr. Sar: Dhani-nārāyaṇa, yes.

Prabhupāda: It is not that . . .

Mr. Sar: Both are equal.

Prabhupāda: Both are equal.

Mr. Sar: Either poor or rich.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Devotee's equal, whether poor or rich.

Prabhupāda: That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Why there should be distinction?

Mr. Sar:

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(BG 7.4)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Astadhā, that's the lower prakṛti of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so now the study, first study, begins from material point of view: Wherefrom the sky came? How the sky came into existence? First of all sky. Then, from sky there is sound. Then from sound there is air. From air there is . . . along with these creation . . . the sky creation means the air creation also, the reception of the sound. So in this way it is all described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam very nicely, how creation took place. Then, ultimately, we come to the land, where all the qualities of other elements are there. There is sound. There is touch. There is vision. There is smell. Everything is there. So . . . and the subtle matters: mind, citta, intelligence, then buddh . . . intelligence. Then false ego. This is . . . at the present moment, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept of life, "I am American." "I am Indian." "I am brāhmin." "I am kṣatriya." This is false ego. He's not neither of them, because he's spirit soul, a different identity. So these, how the subtle mind, intelligence are working, one should know. How transmigration of the soul takes place? By the action of mind, intelligence and ego. They do not know. There is no such science. There are so many universities all over the world, but who is studying all these things? The psychologists, they have studied a little more about thinking, feeling and willing. That's all. But they do not know how he is working, how he is carrying the subtle soul to other body. That they do not know.

Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tu . . .

Indian man (2): Why do you not explain that?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): Why do you not explain that about subtle being carried forward?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is going to come now.

Prabhupāda: Subtle body . . . just like your body at night is on the bed, but you are carried by the thinking, feeling, intelligence to somewhere else. Is it not? So how are you are carried? You are actually lying on the bed. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is carried by the subtle body. Similarly, death means that this body stops working. But the subtle mind . . . exactly in the same way. Just as while you are sleeping this gross body has stopped to work, but the subtle body is working.

Dr. Patel: That is in, I mean, svapna.

Prabhupāda: Svapna, yes.

Dr. Patel: But that does not work in deep sleep.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: In deep sleep it does not work, no?

Prabhupāda: This sleep means temporary. Again the subtle mind, intelligence, come back. So death means no more coming back. It goes elsewhere. That is death. Is it clear? Eh?

Līlāvatī: Simply forget?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Līlāvatī: The subtle body . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, you forget. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayo. You forget. When you dream, you forget that you have got this gross body and you are the father of such and such or mother of such and such.

Dr. Patel: Because this is all due to mind only.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The mind, mind forgets. The subtle body works. Similarly, we are dying daily. That is also death.

Dr. Patel: Nitya pralaya.

Prabhupāda: Nitya pralaya. But . . . when . . . now, because the body is fit, therefore we come again to enjoy with the body, kṣetra. We come to the kṣetra. Just like you are tilling some land, but when it becomes useless, you cannot till; you have to go elsewhere. Suppose it is overflooded. You cannot work there. Similarly, death means when the mind, intelligence, along with the soul, cannot work in this body, he has to go to some other body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ.

Dr. Patel: That is when the prarabdhaḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be decided by the prarabdhaḥ and everything. So in this way, death means this gross body, no more working. That's all.

Dr. Patel: Subtle body lives always.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: Till, till it is, I mean, liquidated from the māyā's clutches and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Till . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . comes into the Goloka with Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The vīta-rāga. When you . . . when you are completely freed from all attachment of this material world, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9).

Dr. Patel: Mām eti.

Prabhupāda: Mām eti.

Mr. Sar: Yadā sarve prabhur jante kāmāni manaḥ śaśvataḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you do not come again. Mām eti. You go back to home, back to Godhead.

Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho . . . (BG 7.5).

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: . . . yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Dr. Patel: That is consciousness, the consciousness . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: The aparā prakṛti. This is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: Para-prakṛti.

Prabhupāda: Not consciousness. Consciousness is also matter. Consciousness . . .

Dr. Patel: There are two prakṛtis.

Prabhupāda: Prakṛti . . . that prakṛti's soul. That prakṛti is soul, para-prakṛti.

Dr. Patel: Para-prakṛti, yes.

Prabhupāda: Soul is also prakṛti. Soul is not puruṣa. The Māyāvādī, they consider soul as puruṣa. But it is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā as prakṛti. Prakṛti . . . jīva-bhūtā mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). Jīva-bhūtā, the soul, which is now covered with this material body, is called jīva-bhūtā.

Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tv anyāt.

Prabhupāda: So therefore it is decided that both these material elements and the soul, both of them are prakṛtis. One is superior, another is inferior.

Dr. Patel: Aparā prakṛti is soul.

Mr. Sar: No, no . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Aparā is matter.

Prabhupāda: Matter, yes.

Dr. Patel: The para . . .

Mr. Sar: The para is the soul.

Prabhupāda: Para is the soul.

Mr. Sar: Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho. That is also prakṛti word.

Dr. Patel: Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5).

Prabhupāda: And . . . no, no. What is the . . .? What is the proof of the soul? Now, yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. One who is working with this inferior energy. Just like I am working with this body.

Dr. Patel: It animates the inferior energy.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: It animates the inferior prakṛti, I mean to say.

Prabhupāda: Yes, working, working. One is the worker, and another is the working ingredient, prakṛti.

Dr. Patel: Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat.

Prabhupāda: Jagat. Because . . .

Dr. Patel: That means the jagat is being held by that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because . . . this Bombay city is important because there are so many para-prakṛtis. If there was no living entity, who cares for the Bombay city?

Dr. Patel: So living entity is the para-prakṛti.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Oh, living entity is the para-prakṛti.

Prabhupāda: Para. But prakṛti. But it is prakṛti. It is not puruṣa. Therefore this prakṛti is trying to become puruṣa here. That is illusion.

Dr. Patel: Or, all people calling prakṛti as puruṣa is Māyāvāda.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no. Prakṛti, jīva, yayedaṁ dhāryate ja . . . they are working . . . they are trying to enjoy. But . . . they are trying to be enjoyer. But that is not possible. Prakṛti is enjoyed. Just like strī-puruṣa. Puruṣa is enjoyer, and strī is enjoyed. Similarly, prakṛti is used for the satisfaction of the puruṣa. So if the jīva is prakṛti, then the puruṣa, puruṣa is the Supreme Person. Therefore his business is to satisfy the Supreme purusa. This is bhakti-yoga.

Indian man (2): Then, then isn't it Sāṅkhya?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is Sāṅkhya.

Dr. Patel: Prakṛti trying to satisfy puruṣa is a Sāṅkhya philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is Sāṅkhya. This is Sāṅkhya philosophy.

Mr. Sar: Jīva is the prakṛti.

Prabhupāda: Prakṛti.

Mr. Sar: Oh, jīva is prakṛti. Ah.

Prabhupāda: And the Māyāvādī philosophy, they say it is puruṣa. Therefore . . . therefore aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. The Māyāvādīs, Māyāvādīs are described as aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ.

Dr. Patel: Buddha was also an avatāra of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Oh . . . and in Bhagavad-gītā it is also said, abuddhayaḥ. What is that śloka?

Mr. Sar: Abuddhayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Manyante mām abuddhayaḥ.

Mr. Sar: Abuddhayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ ma . . . (BG 7.24)

Mr. Sar: Manyante mām abuddhayaḥ, param . . .

Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ. So these Māyāvādīs are abuddhayaḥ. They are not intelligent.

Dr. Patel: No intelligence.

Prabhupāda: And in Bhāgavata it is said, aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. The plural number is there, aviśuddha that, "Intelligence is not yet clear." Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Ye 'nye 'ravindakṣa vimukta-māninaḥ (SB 10.2.32). But they are thinking that they have become liberated. Now you call . . . they address amongst themselves, "Nārāyaṇa." "Nārāyaṇa."

Mr. Sar:

etad yonīni bhūtāni
sarvāṇīty upadhāraya
ahaṁ kṛtsnasya jagataḥ
prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā
(BG 7.6)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are two yoni.

Prabhupāda: Now, etad yonīni, all kinds of species or forms of life, or whatever you see, they are simply combination of this para-prakṛti and aparā-prakṛti. But both the prakṛtis coming from Kṛṣṇa, janmādyasya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). He is the actual, actual cause of everything.

Mr. Sar: Ahaṁ kṛtsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah. Prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā. But prabhavaḥ, prabhavaḥ, as Brahmā, creation, as Viṣṇu, maintenance, as Śiva, dissolution.

Mr. Sar: Destroyer.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is the origin cause of Brahmā, Viṣṇu . . . aham ādir hi devānāṁ (BG 10.2). Aham ādir hi devānāṁ.

Dr. Patel: So He is, in a way, all the three.

Mr. Sar: He's all the three. Yes, He's all the three.

Prabhupāda: Yes, He's not only three, He's many.

Mr. Sar: And above them, and above them, and above them.

Prabhupāda: He's many. Eko bahu śyāma. Not three. But in the material world that three may be the beginning. But there are many.

Mr. Sar: Eko bahu śyāma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Eko bahu syām. Ahaṁ kṛtsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7).

Prabhupāda: Ah. Now . . . because He's the ultimate cause, therefore no more superior than Him.

Dr. Patel: "Nothing beyond Me."

Prabhupāda: "Nothing beyond Me." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7).

Mr. Sar: Mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva (BG 7.7).

Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Because He's the original cause, therefore everything is depending on Him. That is explained in the Ninth Chapter, I think. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta . . . the avyakta-mūrti also He is. That is another feature, another feature. But mayā, the central feature is the person, Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ, praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu . . . (BG 7.8)

Prabhupāda: Now, those who cannot realize the supreme cause, they are instructed how to realize. How to realize . . . if, while drinking water, you think, "Now this taste is Kṛṣṇa," raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. He says that, "I am the taste of the water." So everyone is drinking water. There is no man who does not drink water, at least. So if he remembers, "Now the taste, this taste, is Kṛṣṇa," then he remembers Kṛṣṇa. And that is bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ (SB 7.5.23). Even by remembering, he becomes a devotee, gradually.

Mr. Sar: Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And even if you cannot understand this, that how the taste of the water becomes Kṛṣṇa, all right, you see the sunlight. You inquire, "Where from the light is coming?" Then you come to Kṛṣṇa. And if you are not foolish, ordinary person, if you are Vedāntist, then try, "The oṁkāra, Myself." Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam . . . He's learned. He's thinking, "Nirākāra." "No, I am. Praṇavaḥ, the oṁkāra, the beginning of all Vedic mantras, the oṁkāra, that I am."

Dr. Patel: Praṇavaḥ sarva-bhūt . . .

Mr. Sar: Sarva-vedeṣu.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu (BG 7.8).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Śabdaḥ khe.

Prabhupāda: And . . . yes. Śabdaḥ khe. In the sky. So in the sky there is śabdaḥ. As the aeroplane goes, there is śabdaḥ (makes sound) gura-gura-gura-gura . . . he can remember Kṛṣṇa. Is it very difficult? You see? Bhakti-yoga, how nice it is. When the aeroplane is passing, there is gura-gura śabdaḥ, you find Kṛṣṇa. When you are tasting water, you find Kṛṣṇa. When there is sunlight, you find Kṛṣṇa. When there is moonlight, you find . . . when you're chanting Vedas, you find Kṛṣṇa. So how you can be without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It is simply foolishness that it is cannot be done. No. The how it can be done, that Kṛṣṇa personally is teaching. Learn it. And do it.

Mr. Sar: Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca . . . (BG 7.9)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Tejaś cāsmi vibhāvasau.

Prabhupāda: There are two kinds of smell: bad smell and good smell. So when you smell a nice flower, puṇya-gandhaḥ, you remember Kṛṣṇa, "Here is Kṛṣṇa. Here is Kṛṣṇa." Puṇyo-gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca.

Mr. Sar: Tejaś cāsmi vibhāvasau.

Prabhupāda: When we . . . when you find vibhūtimat sattvaṁ, a very powerful man, a powerful elephant, you should . . . you know that, "There is Kṛṣṇa. This power is Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: This is standard nyāya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar:

yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ
śrīmad ūrjitam eva vā
tat tad evāvagaccha tvaṁ
mama tejo-'ṁśa-sambhavam
(BG 10.41)

Prabhupāda: So where is the difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa? (laughs) Every moment you can remember Kṛṣṇa. Every moment you can see Kṛṣṇa, provided you have got eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). Santaḥ. So you have to become a santa, perfect santa. Then you'll see Kṛṣṇa always.

Mr. Sar: Jīvanaṁ sarva-bhūteṣu tapaś cāsmi tapasviṣu (BG 7.9).

Dr. Patel: The very life of every individual is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Jīvanaṁ sarva-bhūteṣu.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So without Kṛṣṇa, as soon as . . . so long the Paramātmā is there . . . or the jīva is there. Jīva is also Kṛṣṇa, because part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, acintya-bhedābheda. So, so long Kṛṣṇa is there, either as ātmā or Paramātmā, then the body's moving. But the so-called scientists, they do not know. Therefore they do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Scientists have started understanding Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They are standing?

Dr. Patel: They have started understanding Kṛṣṇa now. Scientists.

Prabhupāda: Now, here is the . . . this is very simple. A child can understand. Here is a dead body, and here is a living body. What is the difference? That Kṛṣṇa is not there, and here is Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. But these rascal scientists will not understand this.

Dr. Patel: Einstein?

Prabhupāda: No, yes. They have no . . . they are, they are . . . I know one scientist, a rascal scientist. He has written one Chemical Evolution.

Indian man (2): Yes.

Dr. Patel: Litleus.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Article came. I read it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chemical Evolution. "From chemical life has come." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize.

Dr. Patel: That is the Russians.

Mr. Sar: Is it?

Dr. Patel: No, that man has not got the Nobel Prize.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I know. In California University he was there. So one of, one of my students, he's also professor in the . . . Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He challenged that, "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" That time he said: "That I cannot say." From that day, his meeting was not attended by the students. Yes. He theoretically said that, "From chemicals life has come into existence."

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: . . . life keeps the chemicals together. As soon as the life goes away, the chemicals dissolve.

Prabhupāda: Dissolve, yes. As a medical practitioner, you know. Where is chemical? Where is chemical? That is a fact.

Dr. Patel: Always fact.

Mr. Sar: So still we are researching it.

Prabhupāda: No . . .

Dr. Patel: There is no research . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . . but when the fact is there, what is the use of your researching? When the fact is already there, what is the use of your so-called researching?

Indian man (3): How we can see Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: That is being explained.

Mr. Sar:

bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
viddhi pārtha sanātanam
buddhir buddhimatām asmi
tejas tejasvinām aham
(BG 7.10)

Prabhupāda: Now, that is explained, that prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ (BG 7.8). Śaśi means moon, and sūrya means sun. Prabhā. So as soon as in the morning you see the sunshine, there you see Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: "I am the very light of sun and moon."

Prabhupāda: Why do you say: "I don't see Kṛṣṇa"? Kṛṣṇa says: "I am here, that, as prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ," But why don't you see?

Indian man (3): God is there. But we want to see original form of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That will take three millions of years to understand. (laughter) That is already explained. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). That is not so easy.

Dr. Patel: Māṁ vetthi tattvataḥ.

Indian man (3): What is the method of seeing God?

Prabhupāda: Here, bhakti-yoga. That is . . . that is . . . that is the beginning.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
(BG 7.1)

That is being explained.

Mr. Sar: No, my doubt is that some people must have become siddha in this age also, must have seen Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): Oh, yes. Why not?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even siddhas cannot see.

Mr. Sar: Yatatām api. But then there must be somebody of the siddhas . . .

Prabhupāda: Means . . . those siddhas were satisfied, "Now I have become Brahman."

Mr. Sar: No, not those siddhas, satisfied.

Prabhupāda: And still, after that:

brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu . . .
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

One is engaged in bhakti. They also, after many, many years, will understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: But in this age there must be some people who must have understand . . .

Prabhupāda: There is always. Not in this age or that age.

Mr. Sar: Every, every, every . . .

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every age.

Mr. Sar: Then you must have seen Kṛṣṇa in the human form.

Prabhupāda: I, uh . . .

Mr. Sar: That is the divine form.

Prabhupāda: So . . .

Mr. Sar: Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ is the real vigrahaḥ of Kṛṣṇa form (Bs. 5.1).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa, when viewed on the earth, He had that form.

Prabhupāda: No, just like . . .

Dr. Patel: That sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ form (Bs. 5.1).

Prabhupāda: . . . a devotee sees the Deity of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: (to other Indian man) Come here. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ is the real form of Kṛṣṇa (Bs. 5.1).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: If you can understand it beyond the five senses of yours.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: You cannot see with the . . . (indistinct) . . . eyes or hear him with this ears. You have to go beyond.

Prabhupāda: No, you can see. Just like with cataract eyes you cannot see. But is the cataract is removed, you can see. So similarly, to see Kṛṣṇa you have to develop attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ, yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. So you have to be free from the cataract. Then you'll see.

Dr. Patel: Cataract is the cataract of māyā. False illusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means . . .

Dr. Patel: Am I right?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to purify your eyes by bhakti-yoga operation. And then you'll see. With stick. With stick.

Dr. Patel: You see, you have to actually condition yourself to, I mean, receive . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38). Bhakti-vilocanena. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Those who have become santa and those whose eyes are smeared with love of Godhead, they see every moment Kṛṣṇa. They do not see anything but Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: Balaṁ balavatām asmi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Kāma-rāga-vivarjitaḥ (BG 7.11).

Prabhupāda: Now this is another seeing, another seeing, that one is very strong. That strong, strength, is Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: Where does he get the strength from? Strength is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Kāma-rāga-vivarjitaḥ.

Mr. Sar: Dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu kāmo 'smi bharatarṣabha. That is a very important . . . dharma aviruddhaḥ.

Dr. Patel: This . . . please explain that. Dharma aviruddho.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharma aviruddho. Dharma aviruddho means putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. Putrārthe bhāryā. Wife is accepted only for getting son, not for sexual intercourse. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. So when you have sex life simply for generating good son, that is Kṛṣṇa. And if you want to enjoy your senses, that is pāpa.

Mr. Sar: That's correct.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: If you take that way, then the . . .

Prabhupāda: If you take contraceptive and enjoy sex life . . .

Mr. Sar: That is not allowed.

Prabhupāda: That is mahā-pāpa. That is killing. This is going on. This is going on, all over the world.

Dr. Patel: Ye caiva sāttvikā-bhāvā rājasās tāmasāś ca ye (BG 7.12).

Mr. Sar: Matta eveti tān viddhi na tv ahaṁ teṣu te mayi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And all the three modes of nature also is.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They are also . . . as the material elements coming from Kṛṣṇa, these guṇas also coming from Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa is not there.

Mr. Sar: Kṛṣṇa, He's above that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: None of the guṇas are there.

Prabhupāda: Just like an electrician. He is, by his knowledge, he is, the same box he's turning to be a refrigerator and again heater. He knows how, the art. So the heat and the coolness is coming from the engineer. But he's not there. He's not there.

Dr. Patel: God is with that.

Mr. Sar: Tribhir guṇa-mayir bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat (BG 7.13).

Prabhupāda: Then again comes to that, here. Kṛṣṇa is within the dog, but He is not dog.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And if you say: "dog-nārāyaṇa," that is mistake. (laughter)

Mr. Sar: Tribhir guṇamayir bhāvair . . .

Prabhupāda: (laughing) "Dog-nārāyaṇa." Mean . . . if daridra can become Nārāyaṇa, why not dog? What he has done?

Dr. Patel: Mayā sarvaṁ tatam idaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā (BG 9.4).

Prabhupāda: No, so that I am explaining. So if you take in that sense, because He has expanded Himself everywhere, so why do you say: "daridra-nārāyaṇa"? You say dog-nārāyaṇa, dhani-nārāyaṇa, cat-nārāyaṇa—everyone is Nārāyaṇa. Why you particularize this section?

Mr. Sar: Because they are human beings. That's why I take in that way.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no human. If you have got so broad vision, because the Nārāyaṇa has entered everywhere, so you cannot say simply "daridra-nārāyaṇa." You can say: "The sun-nārāyaṇa." "Sun-nārāyaṇa." There is also.

Mr. Sar: But the human beings, they are more, you see, first . . .

Dr. Patel: That's right, but I think . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no . . . that's . . . it is argument. It is argument.

Mr. Sar: Let him explain it.

Prabhupāda: Here see . . . if you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere present, why you particularize daridra-nārāyaṇa?

Mr. Sar: Well, human beings, we are the first of everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Everyone. Dog-nārāyaṇa, cat-nārāyaṇa.

Indian man (3): If you say that you are . . . (break) That's nonsense.

Prabhupāda: These, these rascals, what are they? Now, they are worshiping daridra-nārāyaṇa and they are killing goat-nārāyaṇa.

Indian man (3): That's right.

Dr. Patel: Goat-nārāyaṇa. Yes. And eating it away.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: That's the answer of it.

Indian man (4): That is God killing God. Part of God killing . . .

Prabhupāda: No, God does not kill.

Dr. Patel: God never kills anything, and nothing is killed.

Indian man (4): He says that human beings and cats and dogs are God Himself. That means . . .

Mr. Sar: No, no, no, no. That's . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that's . . . (break) . . . the version of the cats and dogs, not of Kṛṣṇa. That is the . . . this is the version of the cats and dogs. Kṛṣṇa says, nahaṁ tesu.

Dr. Patel: Nahaṁ teṣu te mayi, "They are in Me. Not I am in them."

Mr. Sar: Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam . . . mohitaṁ nābhijānāti . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah. Mohitaṁ, bewildered by the three modes of nature, they cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar:

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama-māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te
(BG 7.14)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the bhaktas who have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they can understand everything.

Mr. Sar: That is the most important.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mām eva ye prapadyante.

Mr. Sar: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante . . . (BG 7.15).

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Now, here the question . . . here the question is that mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. So it is very easy thing. Why not surrender to Kṛṣṇa and become free from māyā? But their . . . the answer is there: na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ.

Dr. Patel: Four types of people.

Prabhupāda: Rascals and mūḍhās and sinful men, they do not do that.

Mr. Sar: And then again, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ . . .

Prabhupāda: But those who are pious, sukṛtina, they do.

Dr. Patel: Catur-vidhā bhajante . . . my name is Caturbhai. (Prabhupāda chuckles)

Mr. Sar: One of them, catur-vidhā. But they . . . their mode of worship is fourfold, ārto jijñāsur arthārthī . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Ārto, ārto jijñāsi means gṛhasthas.

Dr. Patel: Teṣāṁ jñānī . . .

Prabhupāda: And jñānī and jijñāsu, sannyāsa.

Mr. Sar: Jñānī and . . . I see. Ārto and . . .

Prabhupāda: Ārto and . . . because they, the grhasthas, they feel distress of this material world.

Dr. Patel: That is, they are ārtas.

Prabhupāda: Ārtas. They are in need of money. But a sannyāsī is not in need of money, neither he cares for these worldly miseries.

Mr. Sar: He's jijñāsu.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Jijñāsu. He's jijñāsu. So they are better.

Dr. Patel: Jñānī, jijñāsu and jñānī, both together.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The jijñāsu and jñānī is almost the same thing. Anyway, so, so gṛhasthas are inferior because as soon as their distressed condition is over, they . . . they are no more interested.

Dr. Patel: They forget so.

Prabhupāda: They are no more interested. But these jñānīs and jijñāsu, because they want to know what is Kṛṣṇa, they continue. That is the difference.

Indian man (1): Even jñānī and jijñāsu also?

Dr. Patel: Teṣāṁ jñānī nitya-yukta eka-bhaktir viśiṣyate (BG 7.17).

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jijñāsu is the beginner, and jñānī is realized. Jñānī is realized. Therefore he's better. But that jñānī does not mean that, "I have become God." One who is situated in bhakti-yoga, eka-bhaktiḥ. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: Eka-bhaktiḥ.

Dr. Patel: "He is dear to Me, and I am dear to him." Jñānī.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But He is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to Him.

Prabhupāda: Especially. Especially. Just like you have got many students. One is very intelligent, you take care of him especially. Therefore . . . the jñānī is intelligent. Therefore He takes care.

Mr. Sar: Udārāḥ sarva evaite jñānī tv ātmaiva me matam (BG 7.18).

Dr. Patel: That is very important.

Prabhupāda: Everything is important.

Dr. Patel: Jñānī tva ātmaiva me matam.

Prabhupāda: Yes, "Because he has accepted Me after full knowledge, nobody can defeat him. Therefore he is My ātmā." Especially.

Dr. Patel: So jñānīs a . . .

Mr. Sar: Āsthito . . .

Prabhupāda: Jñānī means one who can defend by knowledge Kṛṣṇa's identity. That is jñānī.

Mr. Sar: Or he's āsthitaḥ . . .

Dr. Patel: "Perpetually welded with Me."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). (laughter)

Prabhupāda: And the so-called jñānavān, they'll take many, many, many births.

Mr. Sar: So-called. So-called, yes. So-called.

Prabhupāda: So-called. Because actually when he becomes wise, he prapadyante, he surrenders. That is the sy . . .

Mr. Sar: If he has become jñānī with bhakti . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you'll find, you'll find that he has surrendered. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam . . . he has no . . . "No, Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything."

Mr. Sar: Real jñānī is that who . . .

Prabhupāda: That is real jñānī.

Mr. Sar: . . . who has surrendered himself. That is correct. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), jñānavān . . . vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ.

Dr. Patel: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam etam . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mr. Sar: Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1).

Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam idam means Vāsudeva is everything. Because . . . we already explained: There are two energies, prakṛti of Vāsudeva: one aparā and para. And whatever you see, this is combination of this aparā and para. Therefore Vāsudeva is everything.

Dr. Patel: Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ.

Mr. Sar: Kāmais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ . . . (BG 7.20)

Dr. Patel: So that way Vāsudeva is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Hogya. Same thing He is . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh. But Vāsudeva is there. It does not mean . . . Māyāvādī says: "Because Vāsudeva has got everything, He has become everything, He's finished."

Mr. Sar: Vāsudeva still above.

Dr. Patel: That is . . . nobody says that.

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. Yes. That is Māyāvāda, impersonalism. They don't accept this person. That . . . "Because Vāsudeva has expanded Himself in so many ways, therefore the identity of Vāsudeva is finished."

Dr. Patel: It cannot be exactly. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adhaḥ . . . (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation).

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But because they are fools, they cannot understand.

Mr. Sar: Celo. Celo. You are a fool; so you don't understand. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: No. Don't call me a fool. I'll hit him. (laughs)

Mr. Sar: We are fighting. We are fighting. No, we are not fighting.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Now, now one thing I must explain. I think Dr. Patel is the eldest of you.

Mr. Sar: Yes, he is the oldest.

Prabhupāda: Alright. So you are all . . . he's just like my younger brother.

Mr. Sar: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: And you are all, mostly, you are just like my sons.

Mr. Sar: Yes, yes. Correct.

Dr. Patel: I am also your son. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (laughing) No, you are younger brother. Sons are on the same level. So I have got the right to say sometimes "Rascal, fool." Don't be angry.

Dr. Patel: And we accept it also. We know that within yourself you take us to be something different.

Prabhupāda: That is out of love. (break) He thinks he's government. Because "Unless he's satisfied, if I do any mistake, immediately he'll arrest me." So he thinks, "This constable is government." That's all. He does not know behind this constable there is head constable, there is . . . (break) He sees directly, "The constable harasses me. So, 'Sir. Namaskara.' " Just like in the village, there are so many . . . (break) . . . done. Somebody is killing the hens. We have got here? Before some deity? So there are so many deities.

Dr. Patel: All these Hindus, they always worship those . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . and Shani, (presiding Deity of Saturn), and this, that, so many, hundreds and thousands.

Mr. Sar: Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad . . . (BG 7.23).

Prabhupāda: Ah, here is . . .

Mr. Sar: . . . bhavaty alpa-medhasām.

Prabhupāda: But they . . . now it is clear. That antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ, that is intelligence, that "If I have to ask something, and if it is to be ended, why shall I be interested with such thing?" So devān deva-yājo yānti . . .

Mr. Sar: Mad-bhakta yānti mām api.

Prabhupāda: Mām api. So why not go to Kṛṣṇa? Why to these . . . (break) The Māyāvādīs, they think that Kṛṣṇa has got His māyā body. His body's māyā. Because the origin, Absolute, is impersonal, so when the Absolute comes in form, He accepts the material elements just like we do. We do. So they are abuddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is abu . . .

Mr. Sar: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24).

Prabhupāda: Vyaktim āpannaṁ.

Dr. Patel: They consider body of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Avyaktam, avyaktam. The Absolute Truth is avyaktam. And when Absolute Truth comes . . .

Dr. Patel: In the form of a body.

Prabhupāda: . . . incarnation, He accepts this māyic body.

Dr. Patel: Only body, and the real is inside.

Prabhupāda: And that has been commented by Dr. Radhakrishnan. When Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), he says that, "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person, but what is within Him. Within Him." That means he is under the theory that Kṛṣṇa's body is māyā, so you haven't got to surrender to the body of Kṛṣṇa. But this fool does not know that there is no such distinction in Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam manyante mām . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah. No, Kṛṣṇa has no such distinction as body and soul. Prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya. He comes in His own, original body. Sambhavāmi yuge . . . prakṛtiṁ svām. Not this prakṛti. Svām, the spiritual body. That they do not take.

Mr. Sar: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mamāvyayam anuttamam.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). That Kṛṣṇa is so powerful that He can come in a spiritual body. Otherwise, how He remembers millions of years? If His body's changing, it is material, then how He can remember?

Mr. Sar: Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā . . . (BG 7.25).

Prabhupāda: Ah. Yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ . . . therefore He's not manifest except to the devotees.

Mr. Sar: Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25).

Prabhupāda: Again, mūḍha and mūḍha comes. (laughter)

Mr. Sar: Vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni cār . . . (BG 7.26)

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni.

Dr. Patel: Kālātītaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Kāla āti . . . yes.

Dr. Patel: He's kālātītaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Kālātītaḥ because He, He's all spirit. Therefore He knows everything.

Dr. Patel: Kāla is an illusion.

Prabhupāda: No, kāla is also Kṛṣṇa, another form of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kālo 'smi. In the Eleventh Chapter He has said.

Mr. Sar: Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bhārata (BG 7.27).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Sarva-bhūtāni sammohaṁ sarge yānti parantapa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarge. Those who have come to this material world, they are envious of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Iccha-dveṣa-samutthena.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Iccha-dveṣa . . . they . . . "Why shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? I shall become Kṛṣṇa." This is iccha-dveṣa.

Dr. Patel: Is that so because of the reason of not understanding Kṛṣṇa, they go on . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa is enjoyer. Just like a big businessman, and his secretary is working under him. So he sometimes thinks, "Why shall I work under him? Why not become another Birla like him?" That is the falldown. He's happy there, becoming secretary of a big man, but he gives up the job and tries himself and becomes a vagabond. That's all. This is the position. Anyone who is trying to become . . .

Dr. Patel: Iccha-dveṣa-samutthena dvandva-mohena . . .

Prabhupāda: Dvandva-mohena.

Dr. Patel: Because they are illusioned by the dvandvas.

Prabhupāda: Dvandvas.

Dr. Patel: If they understand that there is unity and nothing else but Kṛṣṇa, then they are released from the māyā's condition.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they are going . . .

Prabhupāda: So therefore they'll not . . . if anyone knows that, "Wherever I go, Kṛṣṇa's supremacy is there. Kṛṣṇa's supreme is there." But he is perplexed, dvandva-mohena that, "If I leave Kṛṣṇa, I become more happy." That is dvandva-mohaḥ.

Dr. Patel: Dvandva-mohaḥ means all duality of this . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, duality. He's making duality that, "Kṛṣṇa's interest and my interest, different."

Mr. Sar: All likes and dislikes.

Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa's interest and my interests, different." That is dvandva-moha. When he understands that, "My interest and Kṛṣṇa's interest is the same," then it is not dvandva-moha.

Dr. Patel: Dvandva-mohena bhārata.

Mr. Sar: Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah. This dvandva-mohaḥ exists with the sinful man, but one who is freed from all sinful reaction, resultant action, he can understand Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Sar: Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28).

Prabhupāda: Māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Then he engages himself dṛḍha-vratāḥ: "No, I am simply servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all."

Mr. Sar: Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya mām āśritya yatanti ye, te brahma . . . (BG 7.29)

Prabhupāda: Now, here, here the real problem is jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya. But they are, these people, they are engaged in paltry things. The real business is how to become free from the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). They do not know that. Real . . . real purpose of life they do not know. Take any big leader. He does not know what is the aim of life. What is the problem of life, he does not know. Mūḍha na abhijānanti, mūḍha māṁ nābhijānanti.

Dr. Patel: Mūḍha mām abhijānanti.

Mr. Sar: Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti (BG 7.25).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Te brahma tad viduḥ kṛtsnam adhyātmām karma cākhilam.

Prabhupāda: Now these things will be explained further in the next chapter. (break) . . . nothing to . . . He's self-sufficient. He hasn't got to find out māyā to enjoy.

Dr. Patel: No, the lower . . . that is the jīva.

Prabhupāda: And the jīva, jīva, because he's dependent, he has to . . . just like a servant. If he wants to little more comfort, he may find out a bigger master. But he has to serve. That is the position. You have to serve. If you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, then you serve māyā. That's all.

Dr. Patel: That is what I was saying, that . . .

Prabhupāda: This is the position.

Indian man (5): Does God need service?

Prabhupāda: God does not need. You need to serve God. God does not need.

Indian man (5): He's not self-sufficient, you mean.

Prabhupāda: He's self-sufficient, but it is for your interest.

Indian man (5): He knows before creating people they'll sin. Then why does He create them?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? He does not create. This is all nonsense question. He does not create. He does not create.

Indian man (5): He's not omniscient?

Prabhupāda: He's omniscient, everything. But you want. Therefore He has given you facility, "All right, you enjoy. And become entangled." That's all. Therefore at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Therefore He says that, "This is rascaldom. You are trying this, this, that, that. No. Don't try that. Come on. Surrender unto Me." This is the last instruction.

Dr. Patel: Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61), bhrāmayan . . . (break) . . . but you are illusioned because of the māyā. (break)

Prabhupāda: One man is in the prison house. So he supports, "Why government has created the prison house?" There must be somebody.

Dr. Patel: To go in. "So let me go in."

Prabhupāda: But government does not want that. Only the criminals are sent there. That's all. Similarly, this material creation, there was no necessity. But because there are criminals who want to enjoy, therefore God has given this facility, "All right, you enjoy."

Dr. Patel: The whole material world is created by the propensity of the past actions of all . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: No, because God knows that "There are some fools and rascals who will desire like that. All right, if they want . . ."

Dr. Patel: Chale ja. (Go and live in the prison house then.)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like government knows. Suppose government is creating one city, but he's creating at the same time the jail house, although there is no criminal at that time. But government knows there are some criminals who will fulfill this jail house. Because you are independent. Everyone is independent. Not absolute independent, but slight independent. So therefore you have the option either to serve God or serve māyā. That's all.

Dr. Patel: Serve God or serve Mammon.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Dr. Patel: You can't serve two masters at the same time.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . minute quantity. (break)

Dr. Patel: All. You are having all . . . (break)

Indian man (5): Why does God permit all these sins and offenses?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Dr. Patel: That is the eternal . . . that a madman created all this. (break)

Prabhupāda: Why do you not understand? God does not create, but you create. Just like you infect some disease, so you create your disease. Nobody's creating your disease. The simple thing, why don't you understand? If you . . . kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Guṇa-saṅga. If you associate with the different qualities of this material nature, then you inf . . . you become infected. You, if you associate with the tamo-guṇa, then you become lower-class man, animals. That is your fault. It is not Kṛṣṇa's fault.

Dr. Patel: All your actions and their effects, which are collecting on you . . . (break)

Indian man (5): . . . knows the procreating from the first word or some people will exercise their so-called free will and choosing sin, and still He creates them. If He were not to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. There is no question of choosing. As soon as you associate some infectious disease, it is not the question of disease. You must be diseased. This is the law of nature. If you infect the smallpox disease, then you must be suffering from smallpox. That is law of nature. Not that your father has created smallpox disease for you. Try to understand like this. You infect yourself. (break) . . . giving him chance.

Dr. Patel: Chance. But you, as a jīva, is so much engrossed in the māyā, in the tree, in the fruits of it, that you don't heed the God . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . Prabhupāda says.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is the . . . that is the disease. Now, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ . . . (BG 18.66). Who is caring for Him?

Dr. Patel: So you stop this looking down and look up.

Prabhupāda: Who is caring for Him? Now, now. That is independence. Now you suffer.

Dr. Patel: And once you look up, and when you realize that this is all . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you become . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . His māyā, all is due to Him, then you get released from the bondage of the māyā, and you get . . .

Prabhupāda: Māyā . . . māyā . . . māyā . . . it is not for Kṛṣṇa, for me.

Dr. Patel: Māyā is for jīva.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like darkness. Darkness means absence of sun. But sun is never absence of sun.

Mr. Sar: Yes, sun is never absent.

Prabhupāda: Sun is always in the sunlight. It is for us to be in the darkness.

Mr. Sar: Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of māyā. He's the Lord of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). By simply surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa, one becomes freed from māyā. So how Kṛṣṇa can be under the influence of māyā?

Mr. Sar: No, He cannot. He's the Lord of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But these Māyāvādīs says that, "Kṛṣṇa is also, when He comes, He comes under the influence of māyā." This is called Māyāvāda. (break) . . . adhibhūta, material, material adhibhūtas. And adhiyajña. Adhiyajña is Paramātmā. And adhibhuta, material. And adhidaiva . . .

Dr. Patel: Is the other demigods.

Prabhupāda: Devas, yes.

Dr. Patel: All the devas of the ten indriyas.

Mr. Sar: He's asking already, kiṁ tad brahma kim . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . . these are the questions. So this will be answered.

Dr. Patel: In the next chapter it will be answered.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Dr. Patel: Eighth Chapter. This is the beginning of . . . this is the question put to raise the new chapter.

Mr. Sar: But there in the next chapter, anta-kāle ca mām eva smaran muktvā . . . (BG 8.5). (break) Yaḥ prayāti sa mad-bhāvaṁ . . .

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: It is fact only. I may tell you sir, that you must have such practice . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . you practice remembering Kṛṣṇa—Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—how you'll be able? Anta-kāle. There, there will be so many disarrangement of the body. You see? That if you practice, if you practice, then it is possible.

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: It is fact only. I may tell you that you must have such practice . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . to always remember Kṛṣṇa, it is not that all of a sudden you remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible.

Mr. Sar: That's why He says, tasmāt sarveṣu kāleṣu mām anusmara yudhya ca . . . (BG 8.7).

Dr. Patel: That is . . . I told you . . .

Mr. Sar: Mayyarpita-mano-buddhir . . .

Dr. Patel: Just like I have repeatedly told you . . .

Prabhupāda: This is simplest method. In whatever condition of life you may remain, you simply remember Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That's all.

Mr. Sar: Ananya-cetāḥ satataṁ yo māṁ smarati nityaśaḥ . . . (BG 8.14) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . demigods. That is not possible.

Mr. Sar: Mām upetya punar janma . . . (BG 8.15). (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . simply distributing what Kṛṣṇa says. That's all. I am a fool number one also, like others.

Mr. Sar: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: No, no, no, no, no.

Prabhupāda: But my only ambition is that I don't speak anything else beyond Kṛṣṇa's speaking. That's all.

Mr. Sar: Correct, sir. Just you are uncompromisingly speaking. That uncompromising you are speaking. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . places that, "Swāmījī, how you have done this wonderful thing?" And I do not know what is wonderful thing. But I know this, that I do not adulterate. That's all. (break) That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa' upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). That's all. Āmāra ajñaya . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says . . . Dr. Patel, hear. Kṛṣṇa says . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become a guru." Just see. "You become a guru by My order." Then one may say that, "What qualification I have got that I can become guru?" That only qualification, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa' upadeśa. You don't require to manufacture any upadeśa. Whatever is there already spoken by Kṛṣṇa, you distribute it. You become guru. This is guru. Not that you are fool. Yes, I am fool. But I am not so fool like you that I adulterate.

Dr. Patel: No, I . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Dr. Patel: I am a fool number one. (laughter) Two or three. Like that. (laughter) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . was a fool. But if we follow Kṛṣṇa, then even though I am fool, I am right. Just like this child, he's a fool. But if father says: "My dear child, this is called stick," and when she says: "This is stick," this is right. He may be fool, but the version which is given, that is right. So I may be fool, you may be fool. That's all right. If you carry Kṛṣṇa's message, then you are right. (break) We are fool. How I have come to this material . . .? Yes.

Mr. Sar: Not born then you wont be part . . . unless you are in the realm of māyā, you cannot be born as a human being.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) . . . samutthena sarge yānti . . .

Mr. Sar: Born in the māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Māyā, māyā means that thing . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . that is. That is right. One who says like that, "It is right," he's not in māyā. Māyām etāṁ taranti te.

Dr. Patel: Because He is the māyā-maker.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is . . . He says that mām eva ye prapadyante. If you simply speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, then they are not in māyā. You are not in māyā. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man: Ap waise kidhar hai? Kab-kab idhar ate hai? (Where are you staying these days? When do you come here?)

Prabhupāda: (break) . . . what Kṛṣṇa says, then you are not in māyā.

Dr. Patel: That's right. Because He is actually . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . then he surpasses māyā.

Dr. Patel: Unless and until you know the madari who makes the web . . .

Prabhupāda: But you can know when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. (break) So if you are so unintelligent, then it is impossible. But if you have got little intelligence, then you can see Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa says . . . we were explaining that, that "The taste of the water, I am." So don't you taste water? Then the taste is Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty?

Indian man (5): Each life being a plan of God, God is responsible . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all try to understand this, then talk big, big words. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa by drinking water. Is it very difficult?

Indian man (5): No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Indian man (5): But it will take millions of years before you understand Him like that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, because if you won't understand, if you don't understand, then it takes millions of years. Otherwise, in a second. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): "I am the taste of the water." Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. So you see the sunshine. This is Kṛṣṇa. The moonshine is Kṛṣṇa. First of all try to see Kṛṣṇa in . . . just like there are two kinds of snakes. One snake is poisonless, and another snake is poisonous. So before catching the poisonous snake, you practice to catch the non-poisonous snake. Then gradually you'll be able. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, and this is the process to see Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the taste of the water," that is a fact. So you see this Kṛṣṇa. Then you will, one day, you will realize the Supreme Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between this Kṛṣṇa and that Kṛṣṇa. This is the process (break) . . . learn something, you should accept the process. If you don't accept the process, how you can learn? (break)

mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
(BG 7.1)

Mayy āsakta. Just try to increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. And the process is being explained in the Seventh Chapter. That is the only way. (break) . . . sun is open to be visible by everyone. And Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the sunshine." Why do they say that "I do not see Kṛṣṇa"? Here is Kṛṣṇa. And you take the water, taste it. That salty taste is Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. The prabhā of sūrya is there, and the water is there. You can see immediately Kṛṣṇa. Immediately.

Indian man (5): Why did He create suffering, when He could have created a permanent paradise on earth?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Indian man (5): Why did God create suffering, when He could have created a permanent paradise on earth?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That I have already explained. When you infect some disease, you suffer, that is your creation.

Indian man (5): Why create the wrongdoers, when He knows . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he does not hear Kṛṣṇa. He must be committing mistake. (break)

Mr. Sar: Ajñānenāvṛtaṁ jñānaṁ tena muhyanti jantavaḥ (BG 5.15).

Dr. Patel: Muhyanti jantavaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes.x

Mr. Sar: You see? Already He has said. Nādatte kasyacit pāpaṁ . . .

Dr. Patel: (aside) Come here.

Mr. Sar: . . . na caiva sukṛtaṁ vibhuḥ, ajñānenāvṛtaṁ jñānaṁ tena muhyanti jantavaḥ. So God has neither created sin, nor the merit or puṇya. You see? It is only ajñānenāvṛtaṁ jñāna, because your knowledge is covered with ignorance, tena muhyanti jantavaḥ, that we . . . we . . . we play like jantu, insects. (break)

Dr. Patel: Man is also jantu.

Mr. Sar: No, no, we are . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . university does not teach anyone to steal, but he, he becomes a thief. Does it mean the university has taught him to become a thief? So he steals and goes to the jail. This is the position. Svabhāvas tu pravartate.

Mr. Sar: It's only the nature. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . association with the different qualities.

Mr. Sar: That he has taught within, so many adhyāyas, not only one. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . presents you instruction: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That's all. If you simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then everything's finished. Everything is finished.

Mr. Sar: He is . . . (indistinct) . . . nānyaṁ guṇebhyaḥ kartāram . . .

Dr. Patel: Ah, that . . . (break) . . . ācaret. Then he goes beyond the guṇas.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: Guṇātītaḥ. Guṇātītaḥ pratyahe . . .

Prabhupāda: That guṇātītaḥ, that guṇātītaḥ is possible, that māṁ ca avyabhicāriṇi-bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa . . . (BG 14.26)

Dr. Patel: Guṇān etān samatītyaitān . . .

Prabhupāda: Etān samatītyaitān.

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).

Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūyāya . . . yes. (break) . . . only process to take to bhakti-yoga. (break) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa means always remain guṇātīta.

Mr. Sar: Yes, correct. Because you are always . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa. Definitely. (break) . . . not independently. (break)

Indian man (5): . . . why the Jesus says you offer the other cheek? Which is better? Is the choice of us to be violent or nonviolent?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The persons to whom Jesus Christ taught, they were already fighting. Therefore his first injunction is, "Thou shall not kill." They were already killers. You see? And Arjuna is a gentleman. He was thinking before killing. Therefore he has to be induced, "You kill like this." But they were already killers. Otherwise why Jesus Christ said: "Thou shall not kill"? That means that society was accustomed to kill. (break) Yes, that under the circumstance.

Mr. Sar: Different persons on different occasions. Only the main occasions on which they serve. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . violence is violence. But Kṛṣṇa has got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnām vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So those who are duṣkṛtā, there is necessity of violence. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . surgical operation. Yes. When the . . .

Indian man (6): Yeah, I was disturbed in the early morning. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . to have surgical operation, if the doctor says, "No, no, no, I have taken to nonviolence. I cannot touch with knife," that is foolishness. (break) . . . you, one must know. And that, you take instruction from Kṛṣṇa; then you'll know when one thing should be used and one thing not be used.

Dr. Patel: When there is necessity of . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . create violence out of your own wish, that is not God's wish. Just like in modern days they are declaring war whimsically, by the political ambition. That is not God's wish. That is not God's wish.

Indian man (5): But God knows before creating jīvas and everything that they will start wars and take . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, even God knows, that is your creation.

Indian man (5): But why should He create them in the first instance?

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Indian man (5): Knowing beforehand that they will . . .

Prabhupāda: That you will not understand unless you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. You are asking this question for the last so many years, and . . .

Indian man (5): Ah, I have surrendered unto you. Now you explain this mystery.

Prabhupāda: I am repeatedly saying that God does not create anything. Just like the same example.

Indian man (5): He has created this universe.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. You created. Why do you blame?

Indian man (5): How I was created . . . I created this universe?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So you were created to serve God, but you do not serve God. You want sense gratification. That is your fault.

Indian man (5): He's self-sufficient. He doesn't need service.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are repeating that question like a fool? (laughter) I have answered this. If you disturb in that way, don't question. I have already . . . that you created everything.

Indian man (5): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like . . .

Indian man (5): You say He has not created. Now you say He has created . . .

Prabhupāda: No, He . . .

Indian man (5): Contradicting yourself.

Prabhupāda: Then because . . .

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

Indian man (5): Sorry about that.

Prabhupāda: Let me explain it. Let me explain it. Suppose you are ordered by the judge that you should be hanged. So it is certainly his creation, your hanging. But is the judge enemy of you that he has ordered you to be hanged? You have created such thing that you should be hanged. This is the answer. (break) . . . situation that you must be hanged. But the order must come from the judge. So externally the judge is hanging you. But actually he's not hanging you. You are hanging yourself. This is the way. (break) . . . you are hanged, there is no choice. Is it not? But still, you created the position of being hanged. That is the position. When the judge has ordered that "He should be hanged," there is no more choice. But who has created this situation?

Dr. Patel: (to Indian man) No, no, no. We are always like that. We are in the . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Supraconsciousness means . . . if you try to explain, because there is antyantikaṁ sukham. That is spiritual.

Dr. Patel: Supraconscious state is the spiritual state, samādhi state.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual. Yes. (break) . . . is, that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata-āntar-ātmanā (BG 6.47). That is the supreme samādhi, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . little by little.

Mr. Sar: Little by little.

Dr. Patel: And we, because we are dull students . . . (Gujarati) (break)

Prabhupāda: Why? Why do they go to the college and university? They could do it independently. (break) Therefore, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Inquisitive, jijñāsu, they should go to the proper person who knows it.

Dr. Patel: He, that . . . (indistinct) . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . around the world eighth time. No? Thirteenth time?

Dr. Patel: Thirteenth time. Now you must time . . . the fourteenth time, because thirteen is a bad number. (Prabhupāda chuckles)

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got the return ticket. All my secretaries, they have got. (break)

(kīrtana) (end)