770108 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Morning Walk

770108MW-BOMBAY - January 08, 1977 - 49:09 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Some sādhu went . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: No, no. I mean janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ means those who are in knowledge.

Dr. Patel: Knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Abhijñāta.

Dr. Patel: That means sat-saṅga. Instead of doing sat-saṅga, people go to Kumbha-melā . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No. Kumbha-melā is sat-saṅga. If you go to Kumbha-melā to find out a man of knowledge, then your Kumbha-melā is right. Otherwise, yad-buddhiḥ śalile sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). If one thinks that this śalila, the water, to take bath in the water, is Kumbha-melā, he is a go-kharaḥ. But the real yaj . . . that, "Now there are assembly of so many saintly persons. Let me take advantage of their knowledge," then he is intelligent. (break) . . . congress of highly learned saintly persons. People should take advantage.

Dr. Patel: To bring people together on discussion there are different groups, no?

Prabhupāda: Still, you can go to different groups of saintly person. Different groups means brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti (SB 1.2.11). There are some yogīs, some jñānīs, some bhaktas. They are of the same category, little difference. Otherwise . . .

Dr. Patel: By different ways they have reached the same goal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti. Some of them are brahma-parāyana; some of them paramātma-parāyana; some of them are bhakta. It doesn't matter. But they're all spiritual. They have no interest in this material world. Tattva-vit. Tattva-vit. They know what is truth.

Dr. Patel: What is the history of this Kumbha-melā, sir?

Prabhupāda: They say that Kumbha-melā is . . . that spot is very sacred because Mohinī-mūrti brought the nectar there.

Dr. Patel: But in India, Kumbha is . . . Kumbha-melā ritually is . . .

Prabhupāda: Kumbha, that kumbha means the waterpot.

Dr. Patel: Waterpot, yes. But at different places round the Nasik . . . last year and . . .

Prabhupāda: So might have been all these places.

Dr. Patel: Nasik and Ujjain and this—three places.

Prabhupāda: How everything is nice. See the ap, sky, how viśāla and how nice by Kṛṣṇa. Pūrṇam idam. (break) The vṛkṣa-yoni is condemned. By Kṛṣṇa's arrangement the vṛkṣas are also so nicely set up, it becomes beautiful.

Dr. Patel: They're all the representatives of Kṛṣṇa's creation. This is perfect.

Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam. Pūrṇam idam. Pūrṇam adaḥ (Śrī Īśopaniṣad, Invocation).

Dr. Patel: It was a challenge to one scientist who taught nonsense . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Well . . . what . . .?

Dr. Patel: One man challenged by me, a student, you know, "Sir, you said there is no God. Can you make a living cell even of a . . . not of, much less animal, of a plant even?" And he just looked with open mouth. "Can you make a single cell living? Cell, like. Not of the whole tree." That is nature. That is God. That is Kṛṣṇa. That . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (BS 5.35). Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntarastham. Paramāṇu. Āṇu. Then paramāṇu means smaller than the atom. Six paramāṇus makes one āṇu. Atomic dimension is the combination of six paramāṇus. So in that paramāṇu also the Lord is there.

Dr. Patel: He made it, and then He entered into it. That is what the 'Veda says.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Antara-stha. Yac-chakti . . . there is verse. The Paramātmā, Paramātmā is there. The whole human life is meant for understanding all this and glorifying the Lord. And they are wasting the life by imitating the hog. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujaṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ means stool, bhujā means eating. Yac-chaktir eṣa sa . . . what is that? There is a verse: eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu . . . (BS 5.35).

Dr. Patel: Jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi.

Prabhupāda: Ekaḥ. Ekaḥ apy asya. Eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭim. They create millions of universes.

Dr. Patel: But the standard of creation is the same, sir. That I believe of life. Wherever you see, it's the same. That is the greatness of God, that there is no change.

Prabhupāda: So without that . . .

Dr. Patel: If you are an amoeba or a highest evolved man, the system of life is the same.

Prabhupāda: Without . . .

Dr. Patel: That is the wonder of biology and science. That is where we wonder how great God has made the creation. That is where we feel the presence of God, or the real scientist. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . if they believe. Some rascals, they say there is no God.

Dr. Patel: This Khorana, our Indian scientist we are . . . (indistinct) . . . he did this work and he felt aghast: "O God!" Because he had a background of . . .

Prabhupāda: Hindu.

Dr. Patel: . . . religiosity there. Some fellows in America, they talk nonsense about this science: "It's all the chemicals." They believe in what we call that dialectical materialism: that it is a material arrangement which produces consciousness; it is not the consciousness which governs the material. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . the brain is conscious?

Dr. Patel: First the God made the . . . (break) . . . no, but that is God. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . adhokṣaje. If you want to subsidence of anartha, bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. Anartham upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasyājāna . . . (SB 1.7.6). These rascals, they do not know. Ajānataḥ. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva made this sātvata-saṁhitā for these rascals and fools. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This is the beginning of . . . the origin of everything, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ. (japa) (break) There is a very big—what is called—conspiracy against us.

Dr. Patel: Here and America. Yesterday I read about that cutting paper.

Prabhupāda: No, no. One secret letter they have, how they are making conspiracy.

Dr. Patel: By the Church.

Prabhupāda: Not by the Church.

Dr. Patel: By the society.

Prabhupāda: Now they are determined to cut down this movement.

Dr. Patel: They don't like their boys, I mean, getting a better understanding of the life and living a pious life. They want them to be . . .

Prabhupāda: Not here!

Dr. Patel: Here it is different, sir. I mean, we can't compare India with those people. Here we see still there is some signs of . . .

Prabhupāda: I wanted to start this movement. I requested so many friends, "Give me your one son." Nobody.

Jagadīśa: Haṁsadūta was describing . . .

Prabhupāda: "Swāmījī, isme kya hoga?" ("Swamiji, what will come out of this?")

Jagadīśa: What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: "What will be benefit by this if I make my son a Vaiṣṇava or a brāhmaṇa?"

Dr. Patel: No, but Vaiṣṇavas are born in the family. They did not become sādhus. Why should they?

Prabhupāda: No, no. They do not give much importance to the movement.

Dr. Patel: That way.

Jagadīśa: Haṁsadūta Mahārāja was describing that while they were traveling kīrtana, in one village one of the village boys wanted to join them. So he was living with them, and they were arrested by the village people and detained, and the boy was sent home, because of the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: Here in India also.

Dr. Patel: What is that conspiracy, sir, in America?

Prabhupāda: They are planning how to stop this movement in so many ways.

Dr. Patel: By some sort of physical force or something like . . .

Prabhupāda: Not physical, but . . .

Trivikrama: Legal.

Jagadīśa: Propaganda.

Prabhupāda: Propaganda.

Dr. Patel: The Americans, I mean, always doing like that. There are lot of bad persons.

Prabhupāda: Well, there are good and bad every place. They are most of them are . . . manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). This is Kali-yuga.

Dr. Patel: But I have read some letters that some of the university professors of philosophy, they are, many of them are in your favor.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, many.

Jagadīśa: All the intelligent class.

Prabhupāda: All intelligent, they are in favor.

Dr. Patel: And they will write . . .

Prabhupāda: They're also grouping to defend us. They are also grouping.

Dr. Patel: That is more important. The fools may say anything, and dogs may bark.

Prabhupāda: One priest, very famous priest all over the world, is in our favor, Mr. Cox. Who is that?

Jagadīśa: Cox, yes. Harvey Cox.

Prabhupāda: He is determined to defend this movement.

Jagadīśa: From Harvard.

Prabhupāda: Harvard University.

Dr. Patel: In fact the Christianity is a bhāgavata-dharma . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . in a way.

Prabhupāda: We have admitted. But Christianity has fallen. Here is the real religious system.

Dr. Patel: They have fallen into the trap. They have forgotten Christ's teachings.

Prabhupāda: (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. That we have seen . . . (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . what about me? You'll get up on horse?

Trivikrama: (indistinct—talking at same time as Mr. Patel)

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . that is enlightenment if you are younger generation. Just goes . . . just speaks for the future of your country. Younger generation . . . (indistinct) . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Above your and our.

Dr. Patel: That's right. I mean, that is . . . all religious scriptures are above endoubtment. It's meant for the humanity in general. And the Christianity is meant for humanity. Christ died for the humanity, not for a particular race or particular . . . race. (break)

Prabhupāda: Woman's nature is the same everywhere. In spite of your women being so elevated, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, "You don't trust them." (laughter) Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca. That means nature is the same.

Dr. Patel: It is a system of customs. The society . . .

Prabhupāda: And Urvaśī was explaining Purūravā about woman's nature.

Dr. Patel: That sanctity of sex, that is not to us.

Prabhupāda: Fortunately, our men cannot have sex cult even up to the point of death.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . you don't allow me to say about. (laughs) You see, what I mean to say is that we have it . . .

Prabhupāda: "Our," if you say, "our," so if one is sticking to the sex cult up to the point of death, he's not "our."

Dr. Patel: Sex cult . . . this is sex . . .

Prabhupāda: Sex cult, yes. Gṛhamedhī. Who stick into family life, that is sex cult.

Dr. Patel: That's right. But then so many people take vows . . .

Prabhupāda: It has no other meaning. It is a concession of sex. To remain in household life means a concession of sex.

Devotee: So now you are sixty-five . . .

Dr. Patel: No, that is not sex. I am prepared to oppose you for hear.

Prabhupāda: No, I don't hear you; I hear the śāstra.

Dr. Patel: No, but this is also śāstra. Please let me . . .

Prabhupāda: Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham (SB 7.9.45).

Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: No, maithuna, but maithuna products. You are attached to your sons and daughters. That is maithuna product.

Dr. Patel: That way we are attached to our bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . either maithuna . . . just like Gandhi. Gandhi, the same thing, a bigger scale. Bigger scale. Maithuna product.

Dr. Patel: Our body is also maithuna product . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is the first instruction: "Don't be attached to this body." So if we remain attached up to the point of death to the maithuna or maithuna product, then the same illusion. That is safe.

Dr. Patel: So you have to leave the body consciousness and become soul conscious perpetually. It is so many people . . .

Prabhupāda: And that soul consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: That is what I am saying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . but in the soul consciousness . . .

Dr. Patel: Becoming brahma-bhūtaḥ, you have to worship Para-brahman Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Cent percent Kṛṣṇa consciousness is liberation. Hitvā 'nyathā . . .

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54).

Prabhupāda: That is beginning.

Dr. Patel: He gets the highest bhakti. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu . . . (BG 18.54).

Prabhupāda: No, brahma-bhūtaḥ . . . where is that brahma-bhūtaḥ?

Dr. Patel: Then he mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. Then he gets the real . . . otherwise body conscious people cannot do the bhakti without becoming brahma-bhūtaḥ . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ.

Dr. Patel: That is what I was telling you. And everyone was śarīre kuṇape tri-dhātuke.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless one is brahma-bhūtaḥ, there is no question of advancing in spiritual life. (break) . . . undaṁ parihṛtya kartam.

devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitṟṇāṁ

nāyam ṛṇī na kiṅkaro rājan

sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ

gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kartam

(SB 11.5.41)

Finished. No more duty. "I simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He is liberated. Sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kartam. "I have no more duty." That is the brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, when one thinks prasannātmā, "Why I am suffering this unnecessary . . .?" (break) Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitṟṇām (SB 11.5.41). (break) Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām (SB 7.5.30). One, if he is gṛha-vrata, he goes to guru or not guru—he'll never be reformed. Gṛha-vratānām: one who has taken this vow that this home is everything, gṛha-vrata. Vrata means taken vow: "It is my only duty." Matir na kṛṣṇe. He cannot place his mind unto Kṛṣṇa, matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā, either by good advice of guru or personal, svataḥ; na mithaḥ, nor by meeting, sat-saṅga, so-called sat-saṅga, because the real disease is gṛha-vrata.

Dr. Patel: No, that is right, sir. But there are . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the gṛha-vrata . . . if we keep ourself gṛha-vrata, then either guru or personally or by sat-saṅga, nothing will help us. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. Why? Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30).

Devotee: Chewing the chewed.

Prabhupāda: Chewing the chewed. (break) Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśaya ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). If one is trying to be happy by material adjustment, that is durāśayā. It will never be . . . (break) Yāvan na ghṛnita mahīyasāṁ pada-rājobhiṣekam. Yavan na ghṛnita. Bhāgavata śloka, each word, each line, concentrated. Vyāsadeva's contribution, last thing, by Nārada's upadeśa. And this is the only means of anarthopaśamam. You have created anarthas, and human life (greets someone: Aiye) is meant for arthadam. But . . . (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So therefore real Vedic civilization is that gradually we have to give up this gṛha-vrata position. At one time you must voluntarily give up. Although I do not like to give up, still, by the order of the śāstra, one has to give up. Pañcasordhvam vanam vrajet. Vrajet means compulsory. Just like we accept so many things compulsory, similarly, to give up family attachment after fiftieth year, that is compulsory. We therefore invite all the compulsory—what is called—renouncement. Of course, nobody can go to the forest. That is not possible. They are not trained up as brahmacārī. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa Land—"Come on." All the vānaprasthas, they can live in this land or Vṛndāvana, Hyderabad, simply for bhagavad-bhajana and no other purpose. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11), making all other purposes zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Jñāna and karma, these are bondage. Karmī, jñānī, yogī—they are especially bewildered. They want something, but still they say that "I am now renounced." So long there is want, he cannot be renounced. Renounced means no more want. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi: "I am fully satisfied now. I don't want anything." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). "I have got such a nice thing that I have no aspiration for getting any more." That is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Svamin kṛtartho 'smi.

So this is Vedic civilization, that at a certain stage one should forget that "I belong to this family, I belong to this society, I belong to this nation," and so on, there are. Sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu (SB 10.84.13). Sva-dhīḥ: "My own men, my kinsmen." This is sva-dhīḥ. And beginning from kalatrādiṣu. Kalatra means wife. Wife is the beginning of expansion. From wife, child; from child to grandchild; grandchild to great-grandchild; and so on, so on. Stri means "which increases." Kalatrādiṣu.

Indian lady: Swamiji, hindi me boliye. (Please speak in Hindi.)

Prabhupāda: Ye log samajte nahi. (These people will not understand.)

Indian man: Swāmījī, aap ne ye jo bataya, isse mere man me do prasn atey hain. (Swamiji this what you told just us now, by this I get two questions in my mind.) I get two thoughts. Number one: having acquired a family, I am willing to renounce, but would I not be running away from the responsibility . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that responsibility?

Indian man: . . . in the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa, for the bringing up and educating the children? And second thing . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot educate, neither you bring. This is māyā. Do you think . . . do you think that only in your presence your children will be happy? There are . . . just see here in the corner, the father, mother, and the child is always, twenty-four hours, crying. Just see. The father, mother, is there. They are poor men, they are taking care, but still, the child is unhappy; it is crying twenty-four hours. There are many you'll find. So does it mean that in the presence of father, mother, a child is happy? Everyone is being conducted by his destiny. The father, mother may be there or may not be there; his destiny will go on. This is the law of nature. You see here. Do you mean to say, because that man is poor, he's not taking care of the child? Why the child is crying twenty-four hours? So if one child is made to cry by his destiny, even in the presence of his father, mother, he has to cry. Nobody can make him happy. So this is called illusion, that "I am doing." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). A rascal, he thinks like that. But it is not the fact. The fact is prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ. His destiny or her destiny is to suffer. So even though father, mother . . . suppose a rich man's son is sick. He has engaged good physician, good doctor. Does it mean that he will guarantee life? Then what is the principle? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau (SB 7.9.19). Prahlāda Mahārāja said that "It is not a fact that when the children are under the protection of father and mother, he's secure." Tvad-upekṣitānām: "If You neglect, that 'This child must cry; this child must die,' then even by the greatest care of the father and mother, he will die." So what is the use, saying that your duty? That is māyā.

Indian man: Second thing is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, first of all you understand this, then bring second thing—that you have no duty. Your only duty is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). That is your only duty. But because you are under the mental platform, you are creating duties. So . . . but that also must be finished after certain age. That is compulsory, that "You are very good, responsible man. All right, do your duty up to this. No more duty. No more duty." So this "duty," "no duty," this is our creation. We are under fully control of the nature. But we have created our mental concoction: "This is duty. This is good. This is bad." That is our mano-dharma. Real dharma is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ (BG 18.66). This is real dharma. And everything is mano-dharma, mental creation. Therefore the Bhāgavata in the beginning it is said that dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2): "This false dharma is rejected." These are all false dharmas. Real dharma is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. But it takes time. Therefore sat-saṅga is required. But actually real dharma is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do everything ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). What Kṛṣṇa wants, we must know it and do it. And this is real dharma.

Dr. Patel: How to know it?

Prabhupāda: You can know from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is open to everyone. If you cannot understand, then go to guru. He will explain to you. "And how to know it?" you cannot say. "Keep to the left" is there. You cannot say that "I did not know the law." You have deviated. Why you have gone to the right? The signboard is there, "Keep to the left." You have gone to the right; you are criminal, must be punished. So Kṛṣṇa comes personally, and He is giving instruction. How can you say "How to know?" This is criminal.

Dr. Patel: We should follow Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: This is criminal to say that you do not know what to do; you do not see God. God has given the law. There is no question how to know. Know it! Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Tad viddhi. Know it! Why you are neglecting? Tad viddhi. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). That if you do not . . . what is called? Ignorance of law is no excuse. You cannot say in the court, "Sir, I did not know the law." Aiye. You know or not know, you have violated the law; you must be punished. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Trivikrama: Once you know, then everyone is benefited. Your family is not neglected.

Prabhupāda: The ignorance of law . . . why? Why this human form of life? To know. Why you do not try to know it? Then you must be punished. Kṛṣṇa said, aśraddhadhānāḥ puruṣā (BG 9.3). "If you are neglectful to know," dharmasyāsya parantapa, "this dharma, this science, this duty what I am giving . . ." Aśraddadhānāḥ: "Eh! Bhagavad-gītā." Aśraddadhānāḥ. There is no śraddhā. Rascals. "Then the result will be mām aprāpya: he does not get Me." Then what is next? Nivartante: "He goes back." Where? Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3): "Again in the cycle of birth and death, birth and death." Again, after millions and millions of years, he'll come, again get the chance of human body, another chance to know. So this is the chance to know. You cannot expect the dog will know, the cat will know. You have got, human being. You must know. The signboard "Keep to the left" is meant for the human being. If the dog goes from right to the left, he is not to be punished, because he has no knowledge. This is common sense. But you cannot neglect. You are human being. You cannot say, "I did not see the signboard. I did not know the law. Therefore, by chance, I have violated." No. No "by chance." You must be punished. This is the responsibility of . . . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura therefore sings, hari hari bifale, janama goṅāinu: "I have wasted my time." How? Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā: "I got this human form of life. I did not know what is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa." Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu: "Knowingly, I have taken poison." A human being, if he does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that means knowingly he is taking poison, and he must die. Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. Sometimes I do not know what is poison. Just like child does not know; he may take. But he'll not be excused. Even a child takes poison, it does not mean the nature's law will excuse him. No. But . . . what to speak of child, a human being, if he takes poison, jāniyā śuniyā, then what is to be . . .? So in the human form of life, you cannot neglect the instruction of Bhagavān. Then you'll be punished—severe punishment. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ksipāmy ajasram andhā-yoniṣu (BG 16.19).

Dr. Patel: You are thrown in the lower yonis.

Prabhupāda: Lower? Yes, yes. Lower . . . that is mṛtyu-saṁsāra. Suppose next life I become dog. Then my becoming very big scientist, big lawyer, big this and that, everything finished. But that law is not in your hand. After death, you cannot say, "Mother Nature, you are giving this body. I don't like it." No. "It is not in your liking. It is my liking." Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). When you are criminal, you are under the grip of the magistrate. If he puts you in jail, you cannot say that "I don't like." No. You like or not; you must go. Who cares for your liking? Therefore mūḍha. Prakṛteḥ . . . prakṛti, the laws of nature, is working in its own way. Nobody can change it. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā: those who are rascal, they are thinking, "I am independent. Whatever I like, I can do. There is no God. There is no law." Kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). That should be avoided, that I am not independent. So that knowledge is lacking at the present moment. "Whatever I think, I can do. It is private. Religion is private." And big, big svāmīs are supporting, "Yes, religion is your private."

Dr. Patel: Even the state says "Religion is your private . . ."

Prabhupāda: Whatever . . . the rascal says. A rascal says. It is not private. No private—public. It is laws of nature. You have to abide by that. The nature's law is "Now winter. You have to cover your body." There is no second law. So that is wanting, that we are . . . the present defect is that every one of us under the laws of God or nature, whatever you say. And still, we are declaring independence. This is the defect. Prakrti-stho 'pi.

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho 'hi

bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān

kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya

sad-asad janma-yoniṣu

(BG 13.22)

Sad-asad-janma. Why? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. He's associating with the different modes of material of nature, infecting, and that is the cause one is born as demigod, one is born as dog; one is born as tree, one is born as human being. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Therefore we should associate with sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu, asate vilāsa, te karaṇe lāgi more, karma bandha phāṇsa. Because we have given up sat-saṅga—oṁ tat sat—Kṛṣṇa's saṅga, we are entangled in this asat-saṅga. And that is the cause of my karma-bandha phāṇsa. Sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu, asate vilāsa: "I wanted to enjoy with asat." Asato mā sad gamaya. "Therefore I'm entangled."

Dr. Patel: Sat-saṅga is continuously coming in contact with such gurus like you or, I mean, reading that śāstras, also is a sat-saṅga.

Prabhupāda: But reading . . . by reading, you cannot understand. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). That is also vidhilīn: "In order to understand that science, he must go to guru."

Dr. Patel: But, sir, instead of reading no books of knowledge, if you read Bhāgavata or Bhagavad-gītā, it is a sort of a sat-saṅga, and that develops. Someday he'll go to a guru. He'll find out.

Prabhupāda: No, no. If he reads Bhāgavata, he is not ordinary man.

Dr. Patel: He is on the way up.

Prabhupāda: If he reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, he is not ordinary man.

Dr. Patel: He's a sat-saṅgi.

Prabhupāda: Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-samvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. Unless you discuss Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā, with sat-saṅga, devotees, it does not become relishable. Therefore he's not attached. Tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ (SB 1.5.11). In another verse . . . na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit (SB 1.5.10). He may read one literature very decoratively written, very interesting, but there is no discussion about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yad vacaḥ citra-padam, "Very decorative," na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit (SB 1.5.10), "but there is no glorification of the Lord." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham: "Such kind of literature is enjoyable by such persons who are like crows."

Dr. Patel: Why?

Prabhupāda: Crows.

Dr. Patel: Why, sir, crows?

Prabhupāda: Crows, yes. Crows will never come to a nice place. They'll go to the filthy place, where everything rubbish is thrown out. The crow will take advantage of it: "Oh, here is enjoyable thing." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. So we have been educated to become vāyasa, crows, useless black bird. There are other birds also, but these . . . amongst the birds, these crows are most disliked by everyone. So our present literature and taste of literature is like that—crows. "Ka, ka, ka, ka, ka." Even amongst the birds, they'll find swan, white swan. And they're black crows. Nature's division is so nice. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā (SB 1.5.10). That is rejected by the mānasā. Mānasā means the birds who live in the māna-sarovara, just like ducks and swans.

Dr. Patel: Haṁsas.

Prabhupāda: Haṁsas. They live in a very nice, clean water, garden. Uśanti mānasā. They do not go there. Now they are making so much propaganda against our men, but these boys will never go to cinema. Uśanti mānasā. They are boys. They have no attraction, restaurant and cinema. You'll never find. Uśanti mānasā. They have rejected. And we see others—they are making line, queue. Yes. Why? Vāyasaṁ tīrtham. They like that. Crows like . . . they have been educated like crows.

Dr. Patel: They feed on the filth. This is one difficulty. All people are mad after the cinema.

Prabhupāda: They will wait four hours, five hours, standing. Why cinema? I have seen in London the British Museum. Something came there. From morning there is a queue. Exactly like that, they were standing to go and see the museum. Something came. I . . . Three, four years ago I saw. They were standing. Just like here, for purchasing the cinema ticket they are standing and eating nampalli, just to see; eyesight. They will not come to see Deity in the temple. They'll not come. Mentality is different. So it is a very dangerous civilization, soul-killing civilization. We should be very, very careful if we want success also. We shall go now? (end)