730714 - Conversation - London

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730714R1-LONDON - July 14, 1973 - 115:40 Minutes

Indian man (1): But if an animal kills, he kills for food.

Indian man (2): Another one, Guru Mahārāja, they are taking our picture and selling all Christian books as religion education, moral education. And this is the tools. These people little cunning, eh? When it comes to my knowledge, I was almost . . .

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa. And they are selling all these Christian books in the schools and all over.

Prabhupāda: Wherever. This is our advertisement.

Indian man (2): Advertisement . . .

Prabhupāda: Demonstration of world religion.

Indian man (2): World religion.

Prabhupāda: This is world religion.

Indian man (2): But what inside . . . they say religion and moral education books, and all this . . . so actually, they should take our permission also. So this will sell our books. And our organization, not theirs, those . . . confusing the people.

Prabhupāda: No, they are taking.

Indian man (2): People are recognizing that this is very important. They say: "the world religion," and this is the tool. They say, well, the tool, "Here is the new tool for religion education in the secondary schools." So they are recognizing this fact.

Prabhupāda: Without canvassing, people join.

Indian man (2): This is the fact here, see.

Prabhupāda: And the world religion . . . the Ratha-yātrā, we did not ask any particular man. Everyone came and joined. You were there?

Indian man (1): No, I was not.

Prabhupāda: Everyone came and joined. Everyone took prasādam. And they were in Trafalgar Square from five to eight, continually. And Guardian published that . . .

Devotee: Several pictures . . .

Prabhupāda: "Rival to Nelson." Our Ratha-yātrā is Rival to Nelson. Actually world religion. There is no doubt about it. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. And we have no restriction. They, so long they, our so-called Hindus, they restricted. But now this is open. Toh hum India jaata toh humko bolta, "aap toh Hindu dharm ko naash kar diya." (When I go to India, some say that, "You have destroyed the Hindu religion.")

Indian man (1): Hindu dharm ko badha diya toh naash karna! (You have increased the Hindu religion and they say that you have destroyed it.)

Prabhupāda: Woh humko sab bolta hai, "aap toh naash kar diya. Bhaktivedanta Swami Hindu dharm ko naash kar diya. Sab mleccha logo ko jaaneoo de deta hai." (They say: "You have destroyed everything. Bhaktivedanta Swami has destroyed Hindu religion. He gives the sacred thread to the mlecchas.")

Indian man: Aaj ek article dekha tha . . . (indistinct) . . . weekly mei. Toh woh uska heading thaa (Today I saw an article in the . . . (indistinct) . . . weekly. The heading was) "Envy, our national character." Envy, lot of envy. If you are successful or somebody is successful, everybody becomes jealous.

Prabhupāda: So that we explain every day. This material life means to become jealous. That is material life. Material life means you are jealous of me, I am jealous of you.

Indian man (1): Woh jealous hai isliye kahenge ki "aapne yeh dharm prachaar kyun kiya aur Hindu dharm ka aapne sab khatam kar diya." Aapko kehte hain, hindu dharm aapne khatam kar diya. Toh woh jealous karte hain. (They are jealous so they will ask, "Why did you try to preach Hindu religion and spoil it completely as a result?" They tell you that you have finished Hindu religion. So they are jealous.) Jealousy and Envy.

Prabhupāda: Kaun bolta hai? (Who says that?)

Indian man: Jo bhi bolte hain. (Whoever it may be.)

Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.)

Indian man: Aaj kal dharm ka business bana rakha hai logo ne. Jidhar bhi jaao . . . (Nowadays people have made religion into business. Wherever one goes . . .)

Prabhupāda: Dharm toh ek hi hai. (There is only one religion.) Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19): "Religion is given by God." Aur toh sab religion hai hi nahi. Jo Bhagwan ki di hui hai woh religion hai. Bhagwan ka kya kehna hai, (There is no other religion. Only that which is given by God is religion. What does God say?) Sarva-dharmān parityajya, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So this is religion. Bhagwan ka charan mei sharanagati. Toh hum log toh asal religion de raha hoon, Bhagwan ka charan mei sharanagat hoye. Aur toh sab religion hai hi nahi. (To surrender at the lotus feet of the Lord. We are giving the actual religion which is surrender at the lotus feet of the Lord. All other ideas are not religion.) They are not religion. They are cheating. Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2): "The cheating type of religion is kicked out." So we are following the same principle. We are kicking out all these cheating type of religion.

It is explained any religion which does not recognize or do not understand the principles of religion, so that is cheating religion. Why religion?

Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

(SB 1.2.6)

This is religion. That is first-class religion, which teaches bhakti, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, to the Supreme, which is beyond our perception. Akṣaja. Akṣaja means within material perception. Beginning from "a" to "kṣa," whatever experience we have got . . . or akṣa means eyes, senses.

So within sense perception, whatever is there . . . God is beyond sense perception. Therefore God's name is Adhokṣaja. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That is first-class religion. Otherwise, there are so many religions, pseudo religions. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as kaitava. And Śrīdhara Svāmī gives his comments on this kaitava: chala-dharma. Chala-dharma means cheating. And he says particularly, mokṣa-vāñchāpi nirastam. That desire of merging into the Brahman effulgence, that is called mokṣa. Dharma-artha-kāma-mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90).

Generally, people understand these four principles: religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, and then merge into the effulgence, mokṣa, liberation. So Śrīdhara Svāmī says up to mokṣa-vāñchā is cheating, kaitava. Up to mokṣa-vāñchā. Mokṣa-vāñchāpy atra nirastam, kevala bhagavad-upāsanā. That is dharma. That is real dharma. Bhagavad-upāsanā. So we are teaching that religion, bhagavad-upāsanā, simply. We have no such ambition, to be elevated to the heavenly planet or to merge into the Brahman effulgence. No! We can live anywhere, even in the hell. It doesn't matter. But our worship of Kṛṣṇa shall continue. This is our religion.

So we are not ambitious to go to heaven or higher planetary system or higher standard of life. We have no such ambition. We simply want Kṛṣṇa and worship Him, that's all. Never mind where it is. This is real dharma. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. So this boy has become your celā (disciple). He's very nice boy. What is his name? Dhruvānanda? Or his father's name. What is your name?

Dhruvānanda: Dhruvānanda.

Prabhupāda: Heh?

Devotee: Dhruvānanda.

Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. Yes. Aayiye, baithiye. (Please come, have a seat.)

Indian man (2): Aur darshan karne aaye the. (We have come to see you . . .)

Prabhupāda: Aayiye, baithiye. (Please come, have a seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kidhar se aaye hain aap? (Where have you come from?) You are coming from where?

Indian man (3): . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Indian man (2): His . . . there's a place here, His.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Aapka toh woh reading hai na? (Don't you have a reading here?)

Indian man (3): Prajapati. Aap gaye the? Yeh India chale gaye the, abhi parso aaye laut ke, Tuesday ko. (Did you visit? He had gone to India and returned the day before yesterday, on Tuesday.)

Prabhupāda: Accha. Sab ghar mei theek thaak hai na? (Alright. So, is everyone doing well in your home?)

Indian man (2) : Woh abhi sab India mei hi hai. (All of them are in India.)

Prabhupāda: India mei hain abhi sab? (Is everyone in India right now?)

Indian man (2): Sab bacche wahin chale gaye the. (Everyone went there along with their children.)

Indian man (3): Hum log wahan settle hone gaye the. (We went there to get settled.)

Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.)

Indian man (2): Phir laut ke yahin aaye. Wahan nahi rehne diya logo ne. (But we came back because people did not allow us to stay there.)

Prabhupāda: Rehne nahi diya? (Did not allow you to stay?)

Indian man (2): Nahi diya rehne wahan. (They did not allow us to stay.) Kya baat hai? (What's the matter?) Badaa takleef hoga. (Lots of problems.)

Prabhupāda: Kidhar? Rajasthan mein gya tha? (Where? Did you go to Rajasthan?)

Indian man (2): Nahi, Rajasthan nahi. Dehradun mei gaye the. (No, not Rajasthan. We had gone to Dehradun.)

Prabhupāda: Dehradun, toh takleef hua udhar? Kya baat hai? (Dehradun, so did you face any difficulty there? What is the matter?)

Indian man (2): Udhar har cheez ka takleef hai. Khaane ko nahi milta hai . . . (indistinct) . . . mei zyada takleef hai. (There is difficulty in everything. You do not get to eat . . . (indistinct) . . . has more problems.) Everything.

Prabhupāda: Baat kariye. (Discuss it.) Idhar se koi jaaye toh iske liye reheno ko . . . (If someone goes from here, it is very difficult . . .)

Indian man (3): Woh rehta nahi hai. (He does not stay there.)

Indian man (2): Everybody thinks you know . . . you are coming from abroad, you've got a lot of foreign things. They should have it. Everybody comes in that attitude. So if he's not . . .

Prabhupāda: Ye log ko itna loot ta hai, yeh American log ko, hamara. Woh Mayapur mei, estimate hua hai, yeh 15 lakh rupiya kharcha hoga. Hum janta hai 10 lakh rupiya toh yeh log khaa gya. Itna thagata hai. (They rob these people so much, our American men. In Māyāpur, it has been estimated that 15 lakhs will be spent. I know they have used at least 10 lakhs out of that. They cheat so much.)

Indian man (2): Kaun? (Who?)

Prabhupāda: Contractor, yehi sab. (This contractor and everyone else.)

Indian man (2): Aur material toh kharab lagaya hua lagta hai. Apka Vrindavan woh mandir bhi dekh ke aaye the hum. Ban raha thaa. Apke wahan jo devotees the unse bhi mil ke aaye. (And the material used seems to be of bad quality. We had also visited your temple in Vṛndāvana. Construction was going on. We also met the devotees present there.)

Prabhupāda: Bahut thagaa, ab kya kahen? (They cheat so much, now what to say?)

Indian man (2): Baki yeh India mei settle hone ka vichaar apke sang par aane ke baad hi hua hamara. Thoda spiritual line mei interest ho gya. Humne socha India mei . . . (Rest, we decided to return to India after coming in contact with you. We got a little interested in spirituality. We thought that in India . . .)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, kahin bhi rahiye. . . (No, wherever you stay . . .)

Indian man (2): Kuch humein aisa vaham ho gya tha ki Indian mei jaane se zyada spiritualism milega. (We actually had this misconception that if we go to India we will get more spiritualism.) And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed, and I have come back. I think the life is more peaceful here than it is in India.

Prabhupāda: Nahi theek hai. Ye hamara bhi opinion hai. India toh aise hi hai. (No, that's alright. I also have the same opinion. India is like that.)

Indian man (3): It's more peaceful.

Prabhupāda: . . . koi gentleman ka rehena ka jagah nahi hai . . . (Not a place for gentlemen to live.) Especially in Bengal, all they have turned to be rogues. Student or family . . .

Indian man (3): Due to poverty, Guru Mahārāja?

Prabhupāda: Nahi, culture nasht kar diya. (No, they have destroyed the culture.)

Indian man (3): Culture nasht. (Culture destroyed.)

Prabhupāda: Poverty kya hai? Sabhi ko, kutta ko khaane ko milta hai. Ye koi . . . (What is poverty? Everyone, even dogs get something to eat. Is this . . .) poverty is not question.

Indian man (1): It's basically the character, the problem of the character.

Prabhupāda: Yeh jo . . . jo kuch hi khaao, jo kuch karo, dharma se koi vichaar nahi hai. (All this . . . eat whatever you want, do whatever you want, have no concern about dharma.) They have no idea about Vedic . . . they are supposed to be preaching Vedānta philosophy, but they do not know what is Vedānta.

Indian man (1): I like this philosophy of Swami Rama Tirtha. But I read his literature and I quite liked his philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Rama Tirtha also, he gave stress on oṁkāra. Is it not? Oṁkāra?

Indian man (1): Hmm. I think he is more on this karma-yoga. He believes that you should . . . Unhone Japan mei ek lecture diya thaa. (He had given a lecture in Japan.) 'Secret of success' or something like that. I think it is in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that . . .

Indian man (3): It's all his words, not outside words, in Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Toh India mei kitna din thehra? (So how long did you stay in India?)

Indian man (3): Main nau mahina raha. (I stayed for nine months.) First I went there . . .

Prabhupāda: So you have got your own house there, Dehradun?

Indian man (3): No, I tried to buy a house, and I paid a deposit and everything. I wanted to buy the house. Then I came to England to raise the money. I raised the money and I went back to India. And by the time I went back, there were four litigations going on the house.

Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. (laughter)

Indian man (1): "I got this right on this house," "I got right . . ."

Indian man (3): There were four litigations going on that house, and, you know, they all wanted the possession of the empty, vacant part of that house. I mean it was part-possession property. They all wanted possession of the vacant part.

Prabhupāda: Then what happened?

Indian man (3): So anyway, fortunately, the vendor also told me he doesn't want to sell. I said: "Thanks to God." So he gave me the money back . . .

Prabhupāda: So you returned. That's nice.

Indian man (3): . . . and I got out of it. I was lucky, really, you know.

Prabhupāda: Aise hi Bombay mei hum logo ko fasaa diya. (We are trapped like this in Bombay.)

Indian man (1): Kahan? Krishna land? Accha, kya hua udhar? (Where? Kṛṣṇa land? Okay, what happened there?)

Indian man (3): So I was very lucky, really.

Prabhupāda: Bhavant. (Litigation is going on.)

Indian man (1): Blitz mein aapke bare mein aaya tha, hamne padha. (I read an article about you that appeared in the Blitz.)

Prabhupāda: Humlog abhi tak possession nahi liye hain. (They have not given us possession.) Woh hamne pehle socha tha itna leniency de raha hai kya karan hai. Us samay man tha rupya paisa jo kuch hai possession unse le liya jaye. (This thought came to us right at the beginning, why is he behaving so leniently with us? It was because he wanted to take whatever money we have.)

Indian man: Khali possession nahi aaya hai. Public peeche pad gaya, Jahan jaata hai card laga ke aa jata hai. (Only possession is not given until now. The public is also after him. Wherever he goes, he leaves his card behind.)

Prabhupada: Kya sena hai, Shiv Sena aapko maloom hai vo hamara paksh main hai. (What sena is it? Shiv Sena. They are in our favor.)

Indian man: Shiv Sena jinke paksh mein ho jayega voh jeetega bahut strong hai. (Whichever party is favored by Shiv Sena, that emerges victorious. It is very strong.)

Prabhupada: Uska jo leader hai . . . Musalman log yahan bahut hain, kya baat hai. Musalman bhi hamara paksh mein hain. Kya baat hai, mandir barbad karna? (Their leader is . . . even the muslims are in our favour. What's the matter, destroying the temple?)

Indian man: Krishna aapke paksh mein hain. (Kṛṣṇa is on your side.)

Prabhupāda: Sirf Congress opposition mein hai. (Only Congress is in opposition.)

Indian man: Aapke saath sabse shaktishaali aadmi hai. (You have the strongest man on your side.)

Prabhupāda: Hum to wohi keh rahe hain. Agar Gita mein kuch matlab hai to possession le lo aur Bhagwan ko betha do. (That is what I am saying. If there is any meaning in the Gītā then take possession and establish God there.)

Indian man: Bhagvan ko nahi hata sakte. (They cannot remove the Lord.)

Indian man: Jiska bhi paisa liya hai . . . (Whosoever's money he has taken . . .)

Prabhupāda: Husband jhagda karte karte mar hi gaya ab wife jhagda kar rahi hai. (Husband died fighting, now his wife is continuing the fight.)

(break)

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said:

kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya

(CC Madhya 8.128)

"It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. Koi agar doctor ke paas jaata hai to poochta nahi ki kaun jaat? (If someone goes to a doctor, no one asks about the caste of the doctor.) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra. It doesn't matter. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. He should know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . just like Śaṅkarācārya, Unka yehi condition tha. (He had only one condition.)

First of all, you become sannyāsa. Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyāsa to the caste brāhmaṇa. Nobody else. Stricture. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very liberal, that "Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha, it does not matter. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can act as spiritual master. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa."

(referring to young boy) So he's Dhruvānanda?

Indian man (1): Dhruvānanda.

Guests: Dhruvānanda.

Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. And what is your father's name?

Dhruvānanda: Devadatta.

Indian man (3): Devadatta dāsa.

Prabhupāda: Devadatta.

Indian man (3): Devadatta dāsa.

Prabhupāda: And your mother's name?

Dhruvānanda: Draupadī.

Indian man (3): Draupadī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That D-D-D. All "D".

Indian man: Aap hi ne to diya naam. (You have only named them.)

Prabhupāda: Jaroorat aavishkar ki maa hai. Yeh accha jagah hai. (Need is the mother of invention. This is a very nice place.)

Indian man: Mausam bhi itna kharab nahi hai. (Weather is also not so bad.)

Prabhupāda: Subah mein morning walk hota hai. (I go for a morning walk.)

Indian man: Kya yahan karyakram hai aapka? (What's your schedule here?)

Prabhupāda: Dictaphone aur jo koi aaya usse baatchit karna. Ek ghanta class leta hoon saat baje. (Dictaphone and whoever comes, I preach. I take a one hour class at seven.)

Indian man (3): That was a determination to learn. One has got the . . . he has written his own . . . his conclusion . . .

Indian man (1): (indistinct) . . . what was Droṇācārya. He has taken his thumb for nothing actually.

Indian man (3): No, that was his test.

Indian man (1): In order to please Arjuna.

Indian man (3): In order to please Arjuna. And that was his test. And that was his determination, that he rejected, and he learned the science, just, uh, faith.

Prabhupāda: In material world, such competition is there.

Indian man (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is not spiritual world. That is material. So Droṇācārya gave Arjuna the benediction that "You shall be the greatest archer." So in order to keep his promise, he made that . . .

Indian man (1): That wasn't, I think, what he did.

(Paramahaṁsa or someone else enters)

Paramahaṁsa: Śyāmasundara . . . Śyāmasundara is not in the temple.

Prabhupāda: Oh. What is that?

Devotee: Oh, this is just a little preparation, burfī and a little khīr.

Indian man (3): Can't you bring in the plate like that?

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right.

Devotee: I tried to find a plate. There's no . . . should I leave it here?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Indian man (3): So, so many stories he had memorized, and he started writing and asking many questions, Prabhupāda, so I'm not . . . but he has got the talent that if he'll get the right guidance and all this, he can easily translate Mahābhārata, many stories in the book shape, in different articles, which can very much help in our movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): And for six weeks, seven weeks, his holiday, he can remain.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll remain here.

Indian man (3): Remain here. There is no problem. Then how he can develop it? So now you are quite free in next . . . alright? And he has memorized almost all your bhajana, everything.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Indian man (3): All Caitanya's, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's, all these things, very nicely memorized. So I'm very glad, really. At least he's on the right path.

Prabhupāda: Everyone can be on the right path, provided rightly trained. Everyone has got the right of coming to the right path.

(pause)

Indian man (1): I see there are a lot of young children in the āśrama. Do you run sort of a school for them all?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): You have your own school. Somebody teaches them.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. They're just starting. Not yet started. But they're taking care.

Indian man (1): How many children are here?

Prabhupāda: (to Dhruvānanda) You can lie down. He's feeling sleepy. Give him some pad, and sleep there. There is pad. Go and sleep here. Let him sleep there.

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: No, why? There is . . . go and sleep.

Indian man (1): Go and sleep?

Prabhupāda: Yes, go and sleep. Take rest. Go on.

Indian man (3): You know, Prabhupāda, when you came to my house that evening . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (3): You had hari-kīrtana at our house and everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): We had a very funny incident after you left. After two or three days, my young daughter, you know . . . she's about two or two and a half at that time. She was sitting in one corner of the house, and she, you know those cups like this you have to have, to keep under the furniture legs, you know, cup like this, she had two of them, and she was doing like that. And, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: Karatālas.

Indian man (3): My daughter. I asked her, you know, "What are you doing?" She replied quietly, "I'm doing Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Indian man (3): So that, you know, really hit me hard, and I thought, "Look, one day's sat-saṅga can have that effect on life, how much bigger effect it would have . . ."

Prabhupāda: Intelligent, this is intelligent.

Indian man (3): ". . . if there's a greater association." And that really led me to India, and say: "Well, in India I would have more of these spiritual things and more of that atmosphere, environment." And, well, you know, that particular incident really strike me.

Prabhupāda: No, you can attend here. You remain here.

Indian man (3): And, you know, it was the first time she saw a sat-saṅga, first time in her life.

Prabhupāda: No, no, the wonderful thing is that this is a method of spiritual realization which attracts even a child. Unless one denies to be attracted, everyone is attracted. Even a child, even a dog. This is the . . . therefore it is universal. Unless you deny to accept it, attraction is for everyone. If the child is innocent, he immediately exhibits his attraction.

Indian man (3): I was really surprised when she said that, you know.

Prabhupāda: Oh, I have seen many. As soon as there is chanting and dancing, small children, automatically they do like this. Automatically. They dance. We have got many children; they dance, they chant. And they fall down and murmurs all the mantras. What is his name?

Satsvarūpa: Bhakta Viśvareta.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Oh, he'll fall flat just like . . . and he will chant all these mantras: "Nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale . . ." A small child at three years old. You see.

Indian man (1): I mean, advancement has very . . .

Indian man (3): Good association.

Indian man (1): . . . effect, you know, on the mind.

Prabhupāda: So therefore we have got our school already in Dallas, to train small children like that. But there is formalities of this nationalism. What is the formalities? Eh?

Satsvarūpa: Just . . . it's not very difficult. It's just that we have . . . there is a form that we assure the other countries that we will take care of this child's lodging and all his . . . so we're bringing children from other countries.

Indian man (3): Is it only for boys, or boys and girls?

Satsvarūpa: No, boys and girls.

Indian man (3): And they are very well looked after there?

Satsvarūpa: Up to fifteen, yes.

Indian man (3): And they are very well looked after there?

Prabhupāda: Well, as far as possible.

Indian man (3): As far as possible. Do you have any prospectus or anything about that school?

Satsvarūpa: Yes, I have literature.

Indian man (3): You have literature about that school?

Prabhupāda: He's in charge.

Indian man (3): You are in charge of that school?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): I see. Can I ask . . .

Prabhupāda: But tell . . . he has started.

Indian man (3): You have started that school?

Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda started it. (laughter)

Indian man (3): Yes. Could you sometime tell me about that school?

Satsvarūpa: Sure, later we can talk.

Prabhupāda: There are good teachers. We are teaching Sanskrit and English especially.

Indian man (3): They teach Sanskrit, English?

Prabhupāda: That is all. We are preparing them so that they can read our literature, which is in Sanskrit and English. As soon as they can read, that's education finished. They will understand, practical demonstration, ārati, worship of the Deity, and they play mṛdaṅga, they chant, they join Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. They are not meant for any technology.

Indian man (3): No.

Prabhupāda: No. That we do not train. We are training them to become actual devotee, brāhmaṇa, not for become technologist. Technologist, there are many.

Indian man (1): I think the spiritual element is also essential in life.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the only business of human life.

Indian man (1): There must be little bit of, at least little bit of a spiritual element in life. Not the whole time. (break) . . . I believe in Aurobindo's āśrama also they have some sort of school. You know about Aurobindo's āśrama in Pondicherry?

Indian man (3): There are so many.

Prabhupāda: They have no idea.

Indian man (1): I have not been there. I just heard about it.

Prabhupāda: Actual spiritual life, unless you (break)

Indian man (1): I tried to read this Aurobindo philosophy. It's too difficult for me . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (1): I found it too difficult for me to understand.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man (1): No, Aurobindo philosophy, I was reading . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, nobody can understand. Simply he can understand.

Indian man (1): So difficult.

Prabhupāda: It is meant for him.

Indian man (4): You read Guru Mahārāja's Bhagavad-gītā, so simple. Even the child can understand who knows English. (break)

Why the poor animals should be killed? They have got equal rights. But these rascals, they will not give equal rights. (break) . . . "National" means one who is born in that land. The animals are born in that land. Man is also born in that land. Trees are also born in that land. But they are not national. Only human beings national. Imperfect knowledge.

Indian man (4): In Luton, before eighty years . . . when I was reading the history of Luton, on the page number 176 it was written that there was a great shortage of food before eighty years, and in some place people were cutting their own children and eating.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Indian man (4): This is written. If you like that book, I can send you. So the non-vegetarians . . .

Prabhupāda: Cutting their children?

Indian man (4): Cutting their own children, killing them and eat them. In some private places in Luton, where I am residing now. The history of Luton has been published by the County Borough of Luton. The non-vegetarian food leaved them to such an extent that they couldn't stay without the meat, and they had to cut their own children. Now we are vegetarian. I have never tasted any meat. I don't know the taste of it. Still, we all exist on vegetables, all sorts of vegetables.

Prabhupāda: The same thing happened in Kanpur in a hotel. One man was eating meat, and he found a little finger . . .

Indian man (4): Finger of some . . .

Indian man (2): That was in the Bombay, in the Vile Parle, in my place, where I was living.

Prabhupāda: Oh!

Indian man (4): Newspaper meat . . . mein dekha. Hamare Ville Parle mein bhi hua. (I saw meat . . . in Ville Parle also it happened.)

Indian man (2): This gentleman went to the hotel and found a small finger.

Prabhupāda: Small children cut up. And there was another case in Calcutta. The, one Chinaman, he was eating human being. And then . . . (break) . . . some Kancawala (rag picker) him called, and then captured and killed him. This was going on. Later on, when police inquiry was made, so many human . . .

Indian man (2): Bones . . .

Indian man (4): Skeletons.

Prabhupāda: . . . bones, skeletons was found. In Africa there are still cannibals.

Indian man (4): Oh, yes.

Kṛṣṇa-bhāminī: In South America as well.

Prabhupāda: South America also? In India also.

Indian man (1): That, these . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Assam side.

Indian man (1): This Assam, some of the places.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They eat human beings. Nara-buli, sacrifice human being, still there is a class of men.

Kṛṣṇa-bhāminī: In South America, they take a human being, from the head down, they eat. Then the head, they shrink it until it becomes very small, and this is a great prize.

Indian man (2): Television mein bhi dikhaya tha. Who chote chote khopadi hain usko sukha dete hain aur number se laga dete hain. ek sau-do sau. Yeh sab dikha dete hain, South-America mein kya? (It was shown on the television. There are small dried skulls, displayed chronologically 100 to 200. They show all this on the television. In South America, isn't it?)

Prabhupāda: Just like you, you keep the tiger's face after killing.

Indian man (2): Chota ho jata hai. Han, vaise hi. (It becomes small. Yes, just like that.)

Indian man (5): Does this food make effect on a human nature?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Indian man (5): These non-vegetarian foods and things like that. They definitely make effect on a human nature and behavior.

Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. George Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book: You Are What You Eat. So eating has got effect. Sāttvikāhāra or . . . unless one is in the sāttvika position, he cannot understand about self-realization. It is not possible.

Indian man (5): The human beings get dreams, and what's the lesson between the dreams and the actual life? Suppose I have a dream at night . . .

Prabhupāda: Dreams mean that is also change of body.

Indian man (5): It has nothing to do with the human . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, dream . . . just like you forget about this body. Just you have forgotten what body you had in your last birth, similarly, the same experience daily happening. When you dream, you forget that you have got this body. And again, when you give up your dreaming, you come to this body, you forget in what body you were dreaming. So this is the proof that you are living entity, but the body's changing daily. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But these rascals, they do not understand that there is the dehāntara. They are experiencing daily that there is dehāntara, but they do not have any education about this dehāntara.

Indian man (5): Viśvambhara para dṛśyamānaṁ nagarī tulyāṁ na janāntara-gataṁ, paśyam ātmani māyayā bahir ivodbhuḥataṁ yathā nidrayā, yaḥ sākṣād kurute prabodha sameya svātman eva advayam, tasmai śrī guru-mūrtyenam etaṁ śrī taksna mūrtaye.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that, "I'll have to change my this body; then what kind of body I'm going to get next life," that next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such-and-such date, your work will not be required."

Then you become anxious to know, "Then what shall I do next? I have to work." So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body . . . just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think, "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that.

So that is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā. If you want to remain within this planetary system . . . yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām: "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says.

So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position.

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats' and dogs' category; go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa." There is . . . here is the possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa, what I am . . ." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti.

Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking . . .? Even if you take the body of demigod like Brahmā, millions of years age . . ." That is stated in the Bhag . . . ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16).

Indian man (5): Kṣīne puṇye martya-lokaṁ viśanti (BG 9.21).

Prabhupāda: Kṣīne puṇye punaḥ martya-lokaṁ viśanti. So why should we waste our time? Even I become Brahmā, again we have to come.

Indian man (5): Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), kṣurasya dhara niśita duratyayā.

Prabhupāda: Duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Hai to disease bahut kathin. Lekin accha doctor hone se bimari thik ho jata hai. (Although the disease is very serious, if there is a good physician then it can be cured.) So that is there said: daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Very difficult. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. So why don't you do that?

Indian man (5): Tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha sarva-bhāvena bhārata (BG 18.62).

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll not do this. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). They'll not do it. They're determined to suffer. So what can be done?

Indian man (5): Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ (BG 3.35).

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the sva-dharma. Sva-dharma, that is for the lower stage. Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ. You have got a brahminical body. All right, discharge your duties as brāhmaṇa. But he's not doing that.

Indian man (5): So he's not performing his sva-dharma.

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (5): And that's why it is dangerous for him.

Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already . . . a brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa-like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa. Janma-karma, uh, guṇa-karma. So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas. Now act like brāhmaṇa. Then your life is succ . . .

Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra, the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful.

But they are not doing even sva-dharma, bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even sva-dharma. "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma, including that, "You have to give up your sva-dharma. Don't . . . you cannot act as a brāhmaṇa, you cannot act as a kṣatriya, neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya. All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . this is the . . . (indistinct)

Indian man (5): Sansarik ke liye upasana jaroori hai ki nahi? (For the worldly man is austerity necessary or not?)

Prabhupada: Upasana ka kya zaroorat hai. Sva-dharm ka palan karo. Agar sva-dharm ka palan nahi hota to Bhagavan ke charan mein sharanagat karo. Sva-dharm ka palan koi nahi karta hai. Kaun Brahman ka dharm kaun palan karta hai, koi nahi. (What is the need for austerity? Follow your own prescribed duties. If you cannot follow your own prescribed duties then surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord. Nobody follows their prescribed duties. Who follows the Brahman dharma, nobody.)

Prabhupāda: Who is practicing this? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa. If he's acting differently, he should be . . . (break) . . . utilized by the liberated person. Still, we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine . . . the doors will be . . . vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that, "You should give up these four principles: illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition.

So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulation, then you realize. Śrotramāno 'bhirāmāt. It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ.

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

(CC Adi 17.31)

So this is the only remedy, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you'll find all our students, they have got these beads. We have got these bead. Either we shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or we shall talk of Kṛṣṇa. That is also chanting. When you talk of Kṛṣṇa, that is also chanting. Kīrtana, kīrtana means kīrtayati, talking, speaking.

Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Parīkṣit Mahārāja: śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit (Brs. 1.2.265). The item is śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23): about Viṣṇu, to hear and chant. So simply by hearing about Viṣṇu, Parīkṣit Mahārāja became liberated. Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣid abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Vaiyāsaki, the son of Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he became perfect kīrtane, by kīrtana. But he . . . he was . . . he did not chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, but he recited Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So that is also kīrtana. Talking of Kṛṣṇa, that is also kīrtana. Kīrtana does not always mean that you have to chan . . . you have to engage yourself always in glorifying the Lord.

Just like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa. He was a busy emperor of the world, but he engaged himself . . . Sa vai puṁsām . . . er . . . kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). He fixed up his mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. This is first. If you fix up your mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then: sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). And he was talking only, describing and glorifying Vaikuṇṭha. God's another name is Vaikuṇṭha. In Madras they say Veṅkateśvara.

Vaikuṇṭha. Kuṇṭha means anxiety. So God has no anxiety, and God's devotees have no anxiety. Therefore they are vaikuṇṭha. Here in the material world everyone has got anxiety. Therefore it is kuṇṭha, the world of kuṇṭha, anxieties. Everyone—birds, beast, human being—there must be kuṇṭha. So God is Vaikuṇṭha. The vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. This is also chanting, kīrtana, to describe about Vaikuṇṭha, Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Vaikuṇṭha person, Vaikuṇṭha devotees.

So this is the remedy of bhavauṣadhi. Bhava. Bhava means to take birth. Bhava. This is called bhava-saṁsāra, this material world. Here bhava, you take birth, you live for some time, again you die, again take birth. This is going on. Therefore it is called bhava-saṁsāra, repeatedly taking birth and death in different species of life, different planets and different forms, 8,400,000 species, varieties.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151). We living entities, we are wandering in this way, changing different bodies, different situation, different position, and in this way wandering up and down, brahmāṇḍa bhramite, within this universe—sometimes in the upper, heavenly planet, sometimes down in the hellish planet; sometimes as human being, sometimes as cat, dog; sometimes brāhmaṇa, sometimes śūdra, like that.

Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that the living entities are wandering like this. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite. Bhramite means wandering. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. One fortunate person, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151), by the grace of guru and by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one gets the seed of devotional service. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa (CC Madhya 19.152). And when you get a nice seed of plant, you sow it.

So that seed has to be sown within the heart. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare . . . śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana. So if we sow the seed within the heart and water it, as the watering requires . . . the watering is this śravaṇa-kīrtana. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Then it grows. And in due course of time, it gives you the fruit, which is love of Godhead. Then your life is successful. This is the process. So we have to try to sow the seed of devotional service within our heart, and it has to be watered by hearing and chanting. Then gradually it will grow. This is the process. And this is open for everyone. There is no restriction.

Indian man (1): And no price.

Prabhupāda: And no price also. Do sabko thoda-thoda prasad. (Give everyone a little bit of prasad.)

Indian man (6): This morning we didn't want to disturb you to have a darśana.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You came in the morning?

Indian man (6): I came in the morning.

Prabhupāda: You came in the morning, yes. You are for many years here in . . .?

Indian man (7): Yes, I have been in this country since about thirteen years.

Prabhupāda: Thirteen years?

Indian man (7): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, long here. You are for fourteen years?

Indian man (8): In 1959. Yes, over fourteen years now.

Indian man (6): He has established very well in the insurance business.

Indian man (8): Which business?

Indian man (7): Insurance.

Indian man (6): He has got his own insurance companies.

Indian man (8): Can he insure that somebody will not die? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian man (8): He said he has established a very good insurance business. So I put the question that can he insure that somebody will not die. That he says: "I have got a very good business." What is that good business means . . . (laughter)

Indian man (7): I'm out of business. If you take that to me, I'll be out of business.

Indian man (8): When you say something "Good . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, good, God is all-good. Therefore any business dovetailed with God, that is good.

Indian man (8): That is good.

Indian man (7): Any business based on ethic is good.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā, by his own business . . . just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya. So sva-karmaṇā, by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ.

The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ (SB 1.2.13). You are all very first class brāhmaṇas. So this is the verdict: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ," according to the division of varṇa and āśrama. Four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān . . . (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama, at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate . . . but that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship.

So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. You may be a brāhmaṇa. You may be a kṣatriya. You may be a vaiśya. You may be a śūdra. You may be a brahmacārī. You may be a gṛhastha. You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa. It doesn't matter. These division will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama . . . varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13).

Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example: He was a kṣatriya. He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's successful. Similarly, brāhmaṇa or vaiśya, let them do his business. It doesn't matter. But see whether you are pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Then you are successful.

Indian man (7): How does one find out that this act is pleasing Kṛṣṇa or not?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (7): For example, a soldier fighting in a war . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you have got to talk with Kṛṣṇa . . .

Indian man (8): Or somebody . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like Arjuna talked.

Indian man (8): No, I mean, for example, you know, somebody dropping bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. How does he know . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, you cannot drop. You cannot drop.

Indian man (8): How does he know that he is pleasing God or he's not pleasing God?

Prabhupāda: That, that . . . therefore you have to know how to talk with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be possible. You cannot manufacture. And that is that you can talk with Kṛṣṇa by devotion.

Indian man (8): Because apparently, you know, to a layman, this killing wasn't an act which will please Kṛṣṇa, and that, what Arjuna did, kill . . . kill so much . . . such a great army and everything, it will . . . normally, you know, a layman would have thought it won't please Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, if you cannot meet Kṛṣṇa, you can meet with Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad-gītā. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Paramparā. Kṛṣṇa says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha. "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Ikṣvāku." In this way, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, there is a disciplic succession.

So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. If you talk with the Kṛṣṇa's representative, then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the . . . there is a man, departmental-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative.

So physically you may not meet Kṛṣṇa, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot . . . but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. It is not difficult.

The ācāryas are there. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27), Kṛṣṇa says. "All the ācāryas," māṁ vijānīyān, "they are Myself." Nāvamanyeta karhicit: "Never disregard ācārya." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāṁ nāvaman . . . na martya-buddhyāsūyeta. "Do not be envious: 'How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' " No. Anyone who is talking of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa talked, he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme."

So if anyone says, "Kṛṣṇa is supreme," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. It is not very difficult. Because the same talking. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If somebody says that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. But if somebody says, "Kṛṣṇa is not God. I am God," then he's not representative. To talk with Kṛṣṇa is not difficult. You find out the representative, talk with him, and you are talking with Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Hmm. So Catur-bhuja, where he has gone?

Indian man (8): To bring some prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

(someone enters)

Indian man (8): Now, while Bhīṣmadeva was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why he has taken the Kaurava side? Many people ask about . . . he knows Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all give him. Yes.

Indian man (8): . . . and still, he took the side of Kauravas in the fight, being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. And he knew that Pāṇḍavas were right and Kauravas were not right. So many times this question has been very . . .

Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to be killed by the devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (8): By God.

(background talking while prasādam is served)

Prabhupāda: Bring more.

Indian man (1): Okay.

Prabhupāda: He followed the moral principles of this material world. He thought . . . He expressed that, "Duryodhana . . ." he knew that "Either be on Arjuna's side or not, Arjuna will be victorious, because Kṛṣṇa is there. So let us fight with . . ." Because kṣatriya, this fighting is sporting. You see? That is not any difficult task for them.

So he showed these moral principles that, "These people are maintaining me, Duryodhana. They are maintaining me. I am old man, and they are taking care of me, and they are expect . . . so when they are in danger, I shall go to his enemy's side? Oh, this is not good." That he saw. And he knew that, "Even if I do not go to this side, he'll be victorious." So he showed this moral principle. "So one is maintaining me, and he is in now danger, I go to his enemy's side, that does not look well."

Indian man (8): Morally.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (8): That's the question we were discussing. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is it good?

Indian man (8): Oh, very nice. We discussed this point in Bhāgavatam, and these young boys, they tried to very closely to the point, so that if I put the question before you . . .

Prabhupāda: If somebody is maintaining you, and when he's in danger, you go to his enemy's side, that does not look nice. Yes. Otherwise, everyone was on Arjuna's side. Droṇācārya. But they considered like this that, "They have maintained us so long. And now there is fight, and we shall go to the enemy's side. What is this? What people will say? 'Traitors.' "

Indian man (8): Traitors. And what about the Vidura? Why he went away?

Prabhupāda: Vidura was neutral. He left home, when he understood that "Fighting is now inevitable. They'll fight. Why shall I remain here?" he left home. And Kṛṣṇa also said that "I will not fight. I'll not fight, because this is family quarrel. I am known to every one of you. We are related. So I cannot take this side or that side. I may be . . ."

He divided . . . he, by tricks . . . his soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. So Duryodhana preferred, Duryodhana preferred His soldiers that, "Why shall I take this one man? I'll take His soldiers." And Arjuna said: "No, I want Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa said: "Although I'm going to your side, but I'll not fight. Mind that." And, "Never mind, You don't fight." Mahābhārata is very nice. "Greater India." Mahābhārata means "The History of Greater India." Mahābhārata. Mahā means "greater."

Indian man (8): That inspired the devotees, really, like anything, and . . .

Prabhupāda: And that was written for strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). Mahābhārata was written by . . . this is history, but it was written by Vyāsadeva for woman—strī—śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu. And they are compared with śūdras.

So strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām: for these women, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Mahābhārata is Vedic literature, but for their understanding . . . they could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahābhārata was written. And in Mahābhārata he gave the topics, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature.

Indian man (9): The Haryana government is constructing very gigantic, you know, temple over there at the birthplace of Gītā, at Kurukṣetra. I was there ten days before.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (9): I was there from ten days before at Kurukṣetra.

Indian man (8): Kurukṣetra.

Indian man (9): Kurukṣetra, yes. And they have decided now that about ten crores of rupees must be spent over there.

Revatīnandana: The government of India is constructing a temple there? Is that what you said?

Indian man (9): Haryana government is particularly concerned about that, you see.

Prabhupāda: Where? In Haryana?

Indian man (9): Kurukṣetra.

Indian man (8): Actually, that is not by the government. That is by Nanda. No, not . . . the newspaper. That minister.

Prabhupāda: You, you can give. (referring to prasādam)

Indian man (7): Nanda. He is, he is the chairman of that. I heard that about him.

Prabhupāda: (to server) You give, yes. You, whoever you have not given, you give. She does not know.

Indian man (8): To whom you have not given here?

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Give, give others, visitors.

Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the difference between an innocent person and an ignorant person?

Prabhupāda: Innocent person means he's not offender. And ignorant is sometimes offender.

Indian man: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: A child is innocent, and his father is ignorant. His father may be knowing something, and purposely does not take. That is ignorance. Or he thinks that "What is the use of taking it?" That is ignorance. And innocent, he does not know anything. Actually, practically, there is little difference, but if you ask, you can differentiate in this way.

Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This mūḍha is ignorant, and he does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone, according to our Vedic culture, for the last five thousand years, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but he'll not do that. Hmm? He will say, "Why Kṛṣṇa will be the Supreme Lord? I am also." This is offense. This is offense. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. This offense is created on account of sinful life. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. Innocent has no sinful life. Otherwise, there is no difference between ignorant and innocent. Purposefully, when one remains ignorant, foolish, purposefully . . . he'll not accept. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narā . . .

According to Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, they accept Kṛṣṇa. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre . . . in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā: their knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Real thing they do not understand, nor . . . or refuse to understand. So they are offenders.

Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi, "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram andha yoniṣu (BG 16.19). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dviṣataḥ krūrān. They're envious, krūra. "I put them into the hellish condition of life." These, these Europeans and American boys, they're innocent. I have told them that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," they have accepted. That's all. Others, they will argue: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be . . .?" They're offenders. Yes. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa; still they will argue.

Indian man (7): Because they're ignorant.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (7): Because they're ignorant.

Prabhupāda: No ignorant. Purposefully.

Indian man (8): Purposeful, knowing that . . . knowingly that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord and Supreme Authority, even then, if they ignore it . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least . . . the every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be . . .? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that."

This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In Bhagavad-gītā . . . everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders.

Otherwise, where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma. God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya, one eternal, one living being, that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya, eternal. But He is nityo nityānām. He is the chief of the nityas. He's the chief of the living entities.

So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the Vedas, and they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are . . . they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty.

This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that God is impersonal, and everyone can become God, or everyone is God. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi: "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions, they say that, "You can create your God," "You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me. He was supporting Ramakrishna Mission. He said: "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God."

Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda?

(laughter)

Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the Western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God," they have accepted it, just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these Westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it, without any argument.

Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle? I simply present that "Here is God: Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swāmījī, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing, not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said:

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā

(CC Adi 17.21)

kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann

asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ

kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya

mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet

(SB 12.3.51)

They'll not take to it.

So, they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress.

Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha . . . (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. The śraddhā stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Faith, the Indian vernacular is viśvāsa. So Caitanya-caritāmṛta author says, "Faith means viśvāsa sudṛdha-niścaya." Faith. This is faith: when one believes firmly, sudṛdha-niś . . . and with confidence. What is that? Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya: "If one becomes devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Ādau śraddhā, with this faith one has to begin.

Then the faith has to be increased by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14-15). Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niṣṭhā: then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niṣṭhā tataḥ rucis: then attraction. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktiḥ: then he cannot leave. Āsaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ: then ecstasy. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet . . . these are the different stages of sādhaka, of a devotee, how to make progress.

So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva . . . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he captures this slogan that, "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gītā creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress? Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the stages.

So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta . . . "Simply by becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15).

Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it. Just like if you enter into a school, if you follow the regulative principle of the school and study, you, one day, you become M.A. Where is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? But if from the beginning if you have no faith, then what progress you'll make? If you, from the very beginning, if you think, "What will be, this school will do me? They're learning A-B-C-D. What . . .?" (laughter) There is no faith. You may call it blind faith, but that is required.

Revatīnandana: Faith begins from the association of devotees?

Prabhupāda: And that, that faith becomes stronger by association. By association of the devotees, the faith becomes stronger. And the more your faith becomes stronger, you make progress. This is the way. Progress means the same faith becoming stronger, stronger, strongest. The same faith. The principle is the same: Kṛṣṇa. Then you know more about Kṛṣṇa. Then you become more faithful.

Revatīnandana: Is this faithfulness, is it a product of the mode of goodness?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Goodness helps. But not . . . unless you take it seriously . . . then it depends upon the person. Even if he's not in goodness . . . that, just like all these European and Americans. They were not in goodness. They were on the platform of ignorance. But still, they, because they took it, therefore they are coming, progressively.

Revatīnandana: Sometimes the . . . Kṛṣṇa says you can understand all behavior in terms of the modes of nature, the three modes. I'm trying to understand why . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I'm . . . that is generally, unless one becomes in goodness. But bhakti-mārga is transcendental. It does not depend on the qualities of this material nature. Ahaitukī apratihatā. Ahaitukī. Apratihatā. Nothing can check bhakti-mārga. Even one is in the platform of ignorance, it cannot check. It cannot check. Ahaitukī apratihatā. Because it is purely spiritual. It does not depend on material conditions. It does not depend on material . . . these goodness, passion, ignorance, they are material conditions. So bhakti does not depend on material conditions.

Revatīnandana: Why is it, then, that one person accepts it and another rejects it?

Prabhupāda: That is his choice.

Revatīnandana: That is from a spiritual position, his basic disposition?

Prabhupāda: That is his choice, yes. We have got this independence, to accept or not to accept.

Indian man (10): So does faith develop from accepting?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith means acceptance. When you accept, then your faith begins. If you have got hesitation, then the faith has not begun. Or it is on the hazy state.

(pause) (aside) Get the lights on.

Revatīnandana: So in the human life the distinguishing feature is that his spiritual independence can show itself. Whereas the animal is completely under the modes, but the human being, the modes' influence is reduced sufficiently so that he can make this decision, from . . . whether to accept or reject Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Animals also can be delivered, provided he follows a devotee.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): He's just asking for your blessings . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): Your blessings, Swāmījī, will do a lot of good. He's involved in some personal family problems.

Indian man (11): Personal family problem. I am now . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Indian man (2): I told him . . .

Prabhupāda: Bas yeh chanting hai Hare Kṛṣṇa nāma ka. Bās. Bhavauṣadhi abhi to bataya tha. (Only this chanting is there, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Only medicine for the material disease. I told you just now.) bhavauṣadhi, medicine of all material diseases. This distressed condition of material world is a diseased condition, and this is the remedy. Sab milkar isme to aapka koi kharch nahi hai, nuksaan nahi hai. Sab family members baithkar Hare Krishna naam ka jaap kijiye. (There is no expenditure in this. All family members should sit down together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.)

Prabhupada: Disease hai, agar davai nahi lenge to kya hoga. To jiska deemag kharab hai usko uska kya kiya ja sakta hai. (The disease is there and if you don't take medicine then what will happen? If a person is insane what can be done of him?)

Indian man (7): To eradicate the disease, it needs some planning.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (7): To eradicate disease, it needs counteraction.

Prabhupāda: This is recited from the śāstra, bhavauṣadhi. This is the only disease, uh, only remedy. You have not got to spend anything or purchase anything. Neither is there loss. Why not try for some time.

Indian man (7): Remedy.

Devotee: Because it's free, that's why they're hesitating. (laughter)

Indian man (1): That's nice.

Indian man (11): Chaliye. (Let's go.)

Prabhupāda: I'm very glad to see you. Whenever few times . . .

Indian man (7): It's a pleasure, sir, to have your darśana.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Indian man (8): You can come in the morning. We have got . . . Guru Mahārāja speaks in the morning, Bhagavad-gītā classes.

Prabhupāda: Morning we have lecture.

Indian man (7): Morning I can chant Kṛṣṇa's name, I was wondering if I could have the blessing and the beads.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can have the beads, but there is a process. Whether you are prepared to . . .? Otherwise, you can chant. There is no restriction. You can take the beads and chant. But if you want to be officially initiated, there are certain rules and regulation, and other things.

But without being officially initiated, nobody is barred from chanting. You can chant. Just like Ekalavya, he was speaking. Although he was not initiated by Droṇācārya, he became a good archer, simply by practicing. Similarly, you can practice—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, tomorrow is Guru-pūrṇimā, and a friend of mine, his father or his mother died, you see, on Ekādaśī day. Husband and wife both, they had been fasting Ekādaśī, doing satya-nārāyaṇa-kathā. So now father, he is very lonely, and he said: "I have got no guru." Then I told about you. So he immediately grabbed the idea. He wants to come tomorrow, in the morning, to have your blessings. But then is it possible that he could have the initiation?

Prabhupāda: Well, let him come. First of all let him understand . . .

Indian man (3): That man already comes. But tomorrow is Guru-pūrṇimā. That's why I thought if tomorrow . . .

Indian man (8): If he deserves it.

Prabhupāda: So let him come tomorrow. We shall see.

Indian man (3): Tomorrow morning? Ācchā. The beads, Swāmījī. He wants the beads. We can get it from the office?

Prabhupāda: No, beads, they also purchase from the market. There is no harm. Either you take it from here or from the market.

Haṁsadūta: We buy our beads at the market also. The thing is that if someone wants to be initiated, then he has to be prepared to follow some principles, four principles. Prabhupāda just mentioned them. He must be prepared to give up all intoxicants, all illicit sex life, meat-eating—meat, fish, eggs—and no gambling. And chant the prescribed number of rounds, sixteen rounds. So anyone can be initiated, but he must be prepared to follow these restrictions. Otherwise, the effect of the chanting will not be as . . .

Indian guest: As effective as it would be.

Haṁsadūta: Exactly.

Indian man (4): So what you're saying is that there's no harm by his . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . that will help you in future to give up these habits. Chanting you can begin at any condition. But when we initiate officially, we take this promise. Then we initiate. This is our condition. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā. According to śāstra, these are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. But these are modern civilization. It is very difficult.

Indian man (3): Swāmījī? Tea and coffee's also included?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also intoxicant. Pāna . . . chāi, pāna. Pāna, pāna means intoxication. Dhūmra-pāna.

Indian man (7): Dhūmra-pāna.

Indian man (2): And what about supāri, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also ingredient of pāna. Pāna, it is called pāna.

Indian man (2): I offered Vaikuṇṭhajī supāri. You see, he won't accept it. So I thought, well, it only helps digestion, because it only brings the saliva in the mouth.

Prabhupāda: Well, wine is also very digestive. (laughter) An appetizer also. All Europeans, they take first of all wine to eat voraciously. I see in the airplane. And after taking wine, they eat so much.

Indian man (8): And then they go for dancing to digest it.

Prabhupāda: Simple life. Simple life, innocent life . . . because after all, we have to give up this material world. If we become attached, then we'll have to take birth again. Nivṛtta-tarṣair . . . (SB 10.1.4). There is another verse quoted by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is very difficult, but there is possibility. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8).

Bhagavad-bhajana, those who are eager to go back to home, back to Godhead . . . pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya, on the other side of this material world, for him . . . viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca, hā hanta ha hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). For such person to be attracted by these material things is not good. It is suicide. So material things, viṣaya, simply increasing the method of eating, sleeping, sex life and defense, this is material activity.

Indian man (8): Defense?

Prabhupāda: Defense. Defense means . . . just like we have discovered atomic bomb for defending. This is also material activities. So it requires time to learn. But one thing is, the beginning should be, as far as possible, our life should be sinless. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find it is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam (BG 7.28): "Anyone who is completely freed from all sinful activities," yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, "and always engaged in pious activities, such person can become devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28): "He becomes freed from the duality of this world, and becomes fixed up in My service."

So this is the condition, that yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpam. Without being sinless, nobody can understand what is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavad-bhajana. Therefore this is the beginning of sinless life: no intoxication, no illicit sex . . . if you can . . . if somebody avoids these things, he does not die. It is simply a little practice. He's practiced to all these bad habits, and if he likes, he can give it up. It is not difficult. And this is tapasya, little tapasya.

Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). To become advanced in spiritual life, one has to accept some tapasya, austerity. So this is a simple austerity. Therefore when we officially initiate, we get this promise from the student that, "You have to follow this." And that's all.

Indian man (4): . . . kon shomoy apni dekha deben, kalke na kon shomoy? (. . . at what time can I meet you tomorrow? . . .)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kal othoba . . . (Tomorrow or . . .)

Indian man (4): Kal shokale ami ashbo. (I will come tomorrow morning.)

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Indian man (1): In the evening tomorrow, Swāmījī, have you got any special program or . . .

Prabhupāda: No, anyone can come after four.

Indian man (1): Four to . . .?

Prabhupāda: Four to six.

Revatīnandana: I think tomorrow evening there'll be special . . . some special guests coming. Tomorrow evening.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Revatīnandana: Not tomorrow . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you are also welcome. You are also welcome.

Indian man (5): Some people they work, you see, seven days of the week.

Indian man (8): Sunday night?

Indian man (5): No, Sunday is tomorrow. So they wanted to come.

Revatīnandana: Yeah, except tomorrow evening, I . . . Śyāmasundara's arranging a very special conference. And I don't think . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. They also come and hear what is . . . it is open to everyone. Our special conference: Bhagavad-bhakti.

Guests: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (5): Otherwise, you know, we are disallowed . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (1): . . . without your permission, then.

Prabhupāda: They will also hear. Yes. Savere ayiyega. (Come in the morning.) Jaya.

Indian man (5): Yes . . . savere aunga. (. . . I will come in the morning.)

Indian man (4): . . . shokale ashte pari? Kon shomoy . . . (. . . can I come in the morning? At what time . . .)

Prabhupāda: Joto shokale ashte paren. (As early as you can.)

Indian man (4): Accha . . . (indistinct) . . . ami ghum theke uthte pari na. (Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . I am unable to get up early.)

Prabhupāda: Paro na? (Are you unable to get up?) (aside) Raho idhar . . . brahmachari . . . (Stay here . . . celibate monk . . .)

Prabhupāda: Aap kahan ka rehne wala hai? (Where are you from?) Punjab?

Indian man (5): I'm a Hindu.

Prabhupāda: You are Hindu, but which province?

Indian man (5): I come from . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . and my father's from . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, Guyana. That South America.

Indian man (5): No. My father's from India. My mother's from India.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Indian man (5): No, they come from Jalandhar.

Prabhupāda: Jalandhar, Punjab.

Indian man (5): Yes. And . . .

Prabhupāda: What you are doing here?

Indian man (5): Well I have come . . . I'm working at the moment, yeah. I'm working at the moment.

Prabhupāda: Working?

Indian man (5): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What work?

Indian man (5): Well I'm on the . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . hotel. In the kitchen working, all the washing up, and the supervising and things. You know, my father's seen you. He's come and seen you a bit.

Prabhupāda: Ma-phal?

Indian man (5): My father.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Indian man (5): He's come around here. I think he came in London, to the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple in London. He came there. . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . all . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this thing has really gone into my mind. And I don't drink, no meat, nothing else.

Prabhupāda: You don't eat meat?

Indian man (5): Nothing. No drink, no . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, very good boy.

Indian man (5): Horrible. (break)

Prabhupāda: Ready to sacrifice your hair?

Indian man (5): Well, I did before.

Revatīnandana: Not yet. (laughter)

Indian man (1): Is it compulsory to have a full consciousness that he must shave his head?

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is formality. But he must be prepared to observe formality also. But if it is very much objectionable, sometimes we excuse.

Indian man (7): Now I have finished my one year, one year and one week, or something, for my practice, you know. So I'll be taking before and next year. Still, I . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No, you can come any time.

Indian man (7): Now it's 360 . . . 73 or 72 days now, so I'm counting the days.

Prabhupāda: Unko mila prasad. Prasad khilaya? Khaya? (They got prasad. You served prasad? Did you eat?)

Prabhupāda: Dekhiye jo bimari hoti hai aur agni jo hota hai usko bilkul na karna chahiye aur koi agar samjhe thoda sa aag hai chalo thik hai, jal jayega voh aadat bhi badh jayega. Isi tarah bimar bhi thoda sa he, aise nahi pura usko khatam karo. Isi prakar . . . (See, if there is a fire and there is an illness, they should be immediately driven away. If someone ignores it thinking that the fire is very small then everything will get burned down. Similarly, instead of taking the disease very lightly, one must uproot it completely. In the same way . . .) debts. He thinks, "Oh, this is small debt." No, sometimes it becomes, compound interest, big amount. So therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that these three things must be finished by the root: agni and vyādhi and ṛṇa. We should not neglect.

Indian man (7): What is that? Agni . . .?

Prabhupāda: Agni, vyādhi, disease, and ṛṇa, debts. You should not neglect it. You should finish it.

Indian man (8): Before it's increased more. I remember it's only few weeks . . .

Revatīnandana: Fire? Fire, disease and debts.

Prabhupāda: Debts. One should not neglect.

Indian man (6): You don't drink tea, do you? No tea?

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (8): No tea, coffee, no . . .

Indian man (7): I know. I stopped coffee because I don't have it often in my office staff. But tea, still, I'm thinking to leave the tea, you know. I see that Prabhupāda will ask me to give up everything, you know. (laughs)

Revatīnandana: You'll have to replace it with something higher. When you want a cup of tea, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's how I stopped smoking cigarettes.

Indian man (7): Oh, my God. You can . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . us . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . stop smoking.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Nahi who sab thik ho jayega. (No, everything will be fine.) "Where there is a will, there is a way." Koi mushkil nahi hai. (It is not difficult.)

Indian man (7): So when I shall take the whole promise?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (7): When I shall take the whole, the whole of what everything is to do this . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes, at any time, when you are ready.

Indian man (8): (indistinct Hindi) . . . any time.

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Subashya shigram . . . mrtyu kala haranam.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavan ko milne ke liye rishi muni log kitna tapasya kiye hazaaron varsh tapasya. (To meet God, the saints and mendicants—did penance for thousands of years.) (break) . . . polluted, and we have to deal with them.

Indian man (7): Because it creates some problems to somebody if you go somewhere, you don't want tea. Coffee . . . "Oh, no, I don't want it." They say, "What sort of drink?" "Oh, no, I don't want anything." And about food, "No, only an . . ."

Prabhupāda: Now, when I was gṛhastha, so they offered tea, I said: "I don't take tea." Then they said: "Milk?" "Yes, all right. You can give me milk." I'd take little milk. Or you can take little cold drink, soda water, that sugar and water, little lemon. He wants to offer you something. So there are so many other varieties, varieties. But if he insists, "You must take tea," that is not hospitality.

Indian man (7): But what happens is somebody else comes in, you know.

Indian man (8): Hospitality means prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Hospitality means first of all, he should ask, "What can I offer you?" This is hospitality.

Indian man (8): Naturally, you know . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Hospitality means the man should ask you, "What can I offer you?" That is hospitality. If he says that, "I must give you tea, and you must drink it," that is not hospitality. (laughter)

Indian man (8): . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: No, no. Hospitality is first. According to our Indian system, Aap kya lenge? (What will you have?) Then you can say, "Then you can give me a little sweet water," or "You can give me little milk." That's all. Hospitality does not mean I must force you, "You must take it." That is not hospitality.

Indian man (9): (indistinct Hindi) . . . somebody comes to my place . . .

Prabhupāda: So you should ask, "What can I offer you?"

Indian man (9): . . . say, "A cup of tea will do." Then?

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Indian man (9): We cannot give him cup of tea.

Prabhupāda: No, you cannot give that, "I have no tea. You take milk." (laughter)

Indian man (8): No tea now. Why do you keep that tea in the house?

Prabhupāda: But if you offer milk or little sherbet, nobody will deny it. Even if he's a tea drinker, he cannot deny taking a little sherbet or little milk or a sandeṣa or some sweetmeat or . . . what is that? You want to offer him something. So offer him . . . there are so many things. Why that particular tea should be offered? Is it very nice preparation?

Indian man (9): Another tea and coffee. The people generally want . . .

Prabhupāda: I want things are nice, but . . .

Indian man (9): If we stop that one, I come to coffee and tea.

Prabhupāda: They might have gone to hell, but I am not . . . (laughter) I cannot offer him hellish things. Bhagavat-prasāda. We are offering our bhagavat-prasādam. Nobody is denying. You can offer in the same way. We are not offering tea or coffee. Whatever we have got, take it. So this is artificial. We can avoid all these difficulties. There is no difficulty at all.

Indian man (9): No, what I have been asked . . . I take the full consciousness, but wife takes half, and children, they didn't take it, so they want a cup of coffee. One boy wants cup of coffee, the girl wants a cup of tea and . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, the . . .

Indian man (9): But the . . . and when the . . . that is the . . . this is the problem . . .

Prabhupāda: This happened in my life . . . this happened in my life.

Revatīnandana: Listen. Listen. Listen.

Prabhupāda: My wife was taking tea. So I asked her not to take tea, not to take tea. But she didn't care, husband. Then I gave her final, that "Either you have to give up your tea or your husband." (laughter) So she agreed to give up husband, not tea. (laughter) So I left my home. That's all. (laughter)

Indian man (8): Due to tea!

Indian man (9): There won't be any place for me to go now.

Prabhupāda: We have got such a big house. We welcome all. Yes, bad habit is . . . habit is second nature sometimes, but one should be determined. Therefore we have got four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Whichever is suitable. Just like here. He's gṛhastha. His wife, children, all are devotees. So he doesn't require to become a sannyāsī.

Indian man (1): He is lucky.

Prabhupāda: Yes, lucky.

Indian man (9): He is lucky. For some of them, half of them, they go here, half of them go there.

Prabhupāda: He has good wife, good children, all favorable for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He does not . . .

Indian man (8): This is Prabhupāda's mercy really.

Indian man (1): No, but, that I'm saying . . .

Indian man (8): We have been living fourteen years in this country. They were brought up here, and they never touched tea. They were brought up here, school education and all that, fourteen years . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, in England, in London.

Indian man (8): And I must say they are advancing more than me, really. I am still the same stage; by Prabhupāda's grace, they are advancing more—get up early in the morning, four o'clock, take bath . . .

Prabhupāda: No, this kind of family life is very suitable. This is wanted. All the wife . . . his wife is very nice girl. And she is good devotee. So if wife is favorable, then everything is favorable. Household life means cooperation with wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhur na gṛham ucyate. Just like we are also living within a room, gṛha. But we are sannyāsī. What is the difference between gṛhastha and sannyāsī? He lives with his wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhuḥ. Gṛhiṇī means the wife is gṛha. So if the wife is favorable, devotee, then there is no use of giving up family life. That's all. We have got so many married couples. Just like this boy. He's married. His wife is there. They are favorable. Both husband and wife, they have dedicated life for Kṛṣṇa.

So it is very nice. It is not that he has to become sannyāsī. No. Why? There is no necessity. Gṛhe vā vanete thāko. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha, the life must be dedicated for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is required. And for Kṛṣṇa's sake if we have to give up something, is that very difficult job? If Kṛṣṇa wants that "You give up this habit," . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . if you become devotee of Kṛṣṇa . . . now, Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26).

So Kṛṣṇa wants that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam, "Vegetable, milk, rice, grains, you can give Me." So you have to please Kṛṣṇa. You live on this, what Kṛṣṇa says, and take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. That's all.

(people entering room) Aiye. Sab aiye idhar aiiye . . . Hamara makaan bahut bada hai sabko . . . (Come here all of you . . . our house is very big . . .)

"My dear boy, what best learning you have learned?" He was child, boy. So he said, tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehināṁ sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5): "My dear father . . ." He did not address father as "Father"; he addressed him as asura-varya, "the best of the asuras."

Indian man (8): "Best of the asuras."

Prabhupāda: Yes, "best of the asuras." Asura-varya. Varya means the best. And asura . . . because his father was demon. So he was calling his father "demon number one." "My dear father, my dear asura-varya . . ." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām: "Anyone who has accepted this material body . . ." Dehinām, he has said. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām: "They are all full of anxiety." Anyone. Not only human beings, even animal, birds, beast. You'll see, when a bird is there, he'll always, that "Some enemy may not come." Even animals. Even tiger is afraid, although he's so powerful. Elephant is afraid. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Why? Asad-grahāt. "Because they have accepted this material body."

Then what is the remedy? Now, hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam, hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). "They should not be satisfied with these society, family and love and this and that. They should take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. Then they'll be happy." We are trying to be satisfied in this material condition, society, friendship, love and so forth, so on, and we are after that. But there . . . there is no possibility.

Unless you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, harim āśrayeta, there is no possibility. The whole world is trying to adjust things of the society, friendship, love and material atmosphere. That cannot be. That is not possible. Only by taking shelter . . .

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says. Not whimsically. That is the only remedy: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the only remedy. There is no other remedy. But they'll not take. What can be done? This is the only remedy: harim āśrayeta. One should take shelter of Hari, Kṛṣṇa. Then he'll be happy. Otherwise it is not possible.

Indian man (6): Then we'll come in morning?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ramanath. Tumhara naam kya hai. (What is your name?)

Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . (end)