Philosophy Discussion on William James (HAY)

Philosophy Discussion on William James - 59:58 Minutes

JAMES.HAY

William James (1842 - 1910)

Hayagrīva: This is William James. All of these quotations are taken from his most famous book, which was entitled The Varieties of Religious Experience. He's an American philosopher. He defines religion in this way: "Were we to limit our view to it, we should have to define religion as an external art, the art of winning the favor of God. The relation goes direct from heart to heart, from soul to soul, between man and his maker."

Prabhupāda: The man or not man, there are living beings, varieties; we simply do not see the man as a living being. We see there are varieties of living beings, beginning from water up to the higher planetary system. There are different forms of living being, we have several times repeated. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati, like that, nine millions, ah, nine hundred thousands forms of body within the water; then plants, trees, creepers, insects. So all of them are living beings. God is concerned with all of them. Why man is created? Every one of us in different form we are created. Or exactly not created; we are part and parcel of God. In one word God is the father of all living entities. So the simple relationship is that God is maintainer, we are maintained. This is our relationship. In the material world, as a man may have more than one wife, so similarly God has two prakṛtis, or subordinate energies—material and spiritual. So in the material world the material nature is the mother, God is the father, and varieties of living entities, they are all maintained by the father, supreme father. This is the conception of universal brotherhood. And if we understand our relationship with God as father and son... There are so many sons. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu. All different forms of life, the mother is material nature, and God says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: (BG 14.4) "And I am the seed-giving father." So that relationship should be known, and if we act according to that relationship, there will be actual peace and prosperity and advancement of all knowledge. That is wanted.

Hayagrīva: Concerning the founding of religions, James writes, "The founders of every church owe their power originally to the fact of their direct personal communion with the Divine. Not only the superhuman founders—the Christ, the Buddha, Muhammad—but all the originators of Christian sects have been in this case. So personal religion should still seem the primordial thing even for those who continue to esteem it incomplete."

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is person. If He is the supreme father, the father is a person. We have got no experience of father being imperson. My father is person, his father is person, his father is person. In this way go on, father's father's..., searching. So the ultimate father is also person. There is no doubt about it. Either human father or animal father, every living being is a person. Therefore the right conclusion is God the father of all living being is person. Personal conception of God is there in every religion-Christian religion, Muhammadan religion, or Vedic religion. In the Vedic religion, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayoḥ. Those who are sura, means advanced in spiritual knowledge, or the brāhmaṇas, one who knows the Supreme, they find the supreme father is Lord Viṣṇu. Lord Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa is the same category, or same substance. So God is person and the ultimate end. The impersonal realization is imperfect realization of God. The Supersoul realization is still advancement, but the final advancement is Bhagavān, or person God. So we must know our relationship with, and first of all our first business is to know God and our relationship with Him, then act accordingly. Then our life becomes perfect. This is the process of God realization.

Hayagrīva: James saw religion as the source of philosophy. He writes, "Since the relation of man to God may be either moral, physical or ritual, it is evident that out of religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies, and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow."

Prabhupāda: So philosophy means advancement of knowledge. So we are making progress in knowledge when our knowledge is actually come to the point of perfection of knowledge, that is understanding of God. God is there, but on account of our foolishness, sometimes we deny the existence of God. That is the most foolish platform of living condition. But sometimes we have vague idea, some imagination, and sometimes impersonal, sometimes pantheistic. In this way different philosophies means they are searching after God, but on account of not being perfect, there are differences of opinion or different conception of God. But actually God is person, and when one comes to that platform—to know God, to talk with Him, to see Him, to feel His presence, even to play with Him—that is the highest platform of God realization. And the relationship is God is the great and we are small. So our position is always subordinate. (break)

Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of William James.

Prabhupāda: So to carry the orders of God is religion. So the more this fact is realized, that is perfection of religion, and dharma, religion, is perfect when he understands who is God and how to learn to love Him.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yenātmā samprasīdati

(SB 1.2.6)

When we actually understand God and try to please Him, serve Him, that is really religious life and perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: James gave the following estimation of impersonalism and Buddhism. He wrote, "There are systems of thought which the world usually calls religious and yet which do not positively assume a God. Buddhism is in this case. Popularly, of course, the Buddha himself stands in place of a God, but in strictness, the Buddhistic system is atheistic."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared at a time when people became atheistic, and especially they began to kill animals in the sacrifice in large quantity. So God, Lord Buddha, appeared, being sympathetic to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. He was very, very much aggrieved to see the poor animals are being killed unnecessarily. So he preached the religion of nonviolence, and because the people became atheist, so Lord Buddha, just to take them under his control, he also collaborated and said, "Yes, there is no God, but you hear me." But he is incarnation of God, so it is a kind of transcendental cheating that in the beginning he said there is no God, but he is God himself, and people accepted his words or instruction. That is Buddhism. So this very word is used, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Sura-dviṣām, atheist class of men, are always against theist class of men. Therefore their name is that atheist means who are envious of devotees. So in order to cheat these persons who are envious of God or devotee, Lord Buddha appeared and established a system of religion on the platform of nonviolence—no more animal killing. Because those who are animal killers, they cannot understand God (indistinct). That is not possible. They may have some vague idea. So Lord Buddha wanted to stop these sinful activities, and he established the system of nonviolence.

Hayagrīva: James writes about religion and total surrender and involvement. He says, "In the religious life surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused. Even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our life can so successfully fulfill."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without religion the human society is animal society. So religion must be there, and religion means to understand God, to learn how to love God, how to obey His orders, and actually real religion means to accept the order of the Supreme Lord, God. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā this fact is taught. God is personally teaching that "You become My devotee, always think of Me," man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, "worship Me," mad-yājī, "and if you cannot do anything more, you simply offer your obeisances unto Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Without any big, I mean to say, attempt for religious system, if one has got the idea that there is God, and even without seeing Him if he follows His instruction, always think of Him... Either you think of Him as personal God or as localized or all-pervading, but God has got form. One has to think of the form of the God. That is easier. And if God is accepted as impersonal, that is very troublesome. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, kleśaḥ adhikataras teṣām avyakta āsakta cetasām. Those who are impersonalist, for them to think of God becomes very difficult job. Who is God and what to think of, so the so-called meditation is very difficult. But if you have got really conception of a God, just like we have got Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead... Although He has got different incarnations, forms, He is the Supreme, so we think of Him. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We can think, because we have got the form, we have got the Deity in the temple, we have got the picture in our room, and so we have got definite conception of God and definite instruction of God. So this system, following the Bhagavad-gītā, is definitive understanding of God, so people may take this system, and by practical example they can see how those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, how they are advancing in the religious system, in every system, because God has instructed everything—religious, political, social, cultural, philosophical, science, physics—everything perfectly. God, God means He gives perfect instruction. So this perfect instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, we, we have accepted. Not accepted; we have known. God is there; you accept or not accept, it doesn't matter. So those who are fortunate, they will see the actual form of God, follow His instruction, and be perfect in the life. That is wanted.

Hayagrīva: James sees happiness as an integral part of religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Happiness is this. When you know God, follow God, you become happy. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). As soon as is one actually God-realized person, he is immediately happy, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā means happy. There is no more duality, that distress, like that. He is perfectly happy, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā is described as na śocati na kāṅkṣati: there is no more hankering, no more lamentation. Everything is perfect condition. Samaḥ sarveṣu: there is no distinction between man to man, nation to nation, animal to man, because in perfect state, the one who is actually religious, he is no longer interested only in the human society, but he knows that everyone within this material world, either man or animal or trees, they are all living entities, part and parcel of God. They are different forms only. In this way he has got clear understanding, clear dealing and clear life, clear advancement, and clear success. That is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: He says that the natural existence often proves itself to be basically unhappy. "With such relations between religion and happiness, it is perhaps not surprising that men come to regard the happiness which a religious belief affords as a proof of its truth. If a creed makes a man feel happy he almost inevitably adopts it. Such a belief ought to be true; therefore it is true. Such, rightly or wrongly, is one of the immediate inferences of the religious logic used by ordinary men."

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are actually in clear conception of God, and if you have decided to obey God and love Him, that is happiness. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). This process of acting in obedience to the order of God, as we are doing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... We have no other business than to obey the orders of God. God says that you preach this confidential philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness everywhere. So because we are trying to love God, we have got some affection and love for God; therefore we are so much eager to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, "It is Kṛṣṇa's business. Why should we bother about Him?" No. Because we love Kṛṣṇa, and He is happy that His message is being spread, that is our happiness also, that we are trying to serve God, tacitly, without any doubt. So we also feel happy, and God says that He will be very happy if you do this. So this is reciprocation. This is religion. Religion is no sentiment. Actual realization of God, actual carrying out or executing the orders of God, then God is happy, we are happy, and our progress of life is secure.

Hayagrīva: He sees the lover of God as being a morally free person. He writes, "As St. Augustine's maxim, 'If you but love God you may do as you incline,' is morally one of the profoundest of observations, yet it is pregnant for such persons with passports beyond the bounds of conventional morality."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very nice. Morality means to execute the orders of God. If God is satisfied then it is moral. Otherwise our so-called convention in this material conception of life, "This is good," "This is bad," they are described as mental concoction. We must have clear orders from God, and if we execute it for the satisfaction of God, this means, in other words, morality means the action which satisfies God, the Supreme Lord. That is morality. And if he does not satisfy the Lord, then it is not morality; it is immorality. We therefore sing every day yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo, and the orders of God is carried through the representative of God, spiritual master, because directly we have no connection with God. The spiritual master is the transparent via media between God and ourself. In our perfect stage, of course, we can talk with God, but in the beginning, neophyte state, there is no such chance; therefore we have to take instruction from the spiritual master who has got direct connection with God. And if we satisfy the spiritual master, this means we have satisfied God. That is happiness.

Hayagrīva: Concerning evil, James writes, "Evil is a disease, and worry over disease is itself an additional form of disease which only adds to the original complaint. Even repentance and remorse, affections which come in the character of ministers of good, may be but sickly and relaxing impulses. The best repentance is to up and act for righteousness and forget that you ever had relations with sin."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The final morality is... What in this portion?

Hayagrīva: He feels that evil is a disease first...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: ...but worry about evil is just an orig...

Prabhupāda: Another.

Hayagrīva: ...just another disease.

Prabhupāda: So disease, when you are in diseased condition, it means increasing suffering. Disease increases. Without treatment disease increases, as fire, without being extinguished, without attempt of extinguishing the fire, it increases. Debt, compound interest, increases. So therefore the instruction is that disease, fire, and debt should not be kept as it is without any attention. The attention must be there to see that it is not increasing, it is being completely extinguished. That is intelligence. So therefore we must know our suffering is on account of disobedience to the orders of God, or on account of becoming irreligious. So we must find out the real system of religion, and we, there is already, but on account of our ignorance it is now covered by material contamination. Otherwise our relationship with God is a fact. We are thinking independently. That is foolishness. The demons, or the atheist class, they falsely think independent of the orders of God; therefore they are forced to accept which they do not want. Ultimately they are forced to accept the punishment—birth, death, old age, and disease—but still, atheist class, they deny existence of God. That is their foolishness. Actually God is there, His order is there, and if we are deficient in carrying out the order, we should take the instruction of bona fide spiritual master, the representative of God, and we should execute it, and then we become happy.

Hayagrīva: He sees two basic types of religions. One he calls sort of a naive optimism that says "Hurrah for the universe. God's in His heaven, all is right with the world." He calls this "the sky-blue optimistic gospel." And another type of religion, which he calls pessimistic in the sense that these religions recognize the inevitable futility of materialistic life, and they offer deliverance, or mukti, from the fourfold miseries of material existence. He says, "Man must die to an unreal life before he can be born into the real life." So he felt that the completest religions take a pessimistic view of life on this..., life in this world, materialistic life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, unless one is pessimistic of this material world, he is animal. A man knows what are the sufferings of this material world: ādhyātmic, ādhibautic, ādhidaivic. There are so many suffering pertaining to the mind, to the mind, sufferings offered by other living beings, and sufferings imposed forcibly by the laws of nature. So the world is full of suffering, but under the spell of māyā, illusion, we accept this suffering condition as progress. But ultimately whatever we do, the death is there. All the resultant action of our activities, they are taken away and we are put to death. So under these circumstances there is no happiness within this material world. I have fully arranged for my happiness, and any moment, just after arrangement, we are kicked out; we have to accept death. So where is happiness here? The intelligent man is always pessimistic, that "First of all let us become secure," that we are trying to adjust this material position to become happy. But who is going to allow us to become happy here? This is pessimistic view. And then further advancement of knowledge is there, and when he understands the orders the orders of Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), to surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and after surrendering and understanding Him fully, then we go to the world which is full of bliss, knowledge and eternal life, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya. That is perfection of life. So unless we take a pessimistic view of this material world, we shall remain attached to it, and there will be repetition of birth and death—sometimes high-grade life, sometimes low-grade life, but this business is very, very disturbing. We make some arrangement to live here permanently, but nature will not allow us. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). We work very hard; there is unhappiness. And sometimes we may get good results, sometimes bad results, sometimes frustration, so where is happiness? Happiness is only to understand God and act according to His advice, and then go back to home, back to Godhead. That is happiness.

Hayagrīva: James writes of the characteristics of a sādhu in this way. He says, "There is a certain composite photograph of universal saintliness, the same in all religions, of which the features can easily be traced. They are these." And he numbers, "Number one: a feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interests; in a conviction not memerly intellectual, but as it were sensible of the existence of an ideal power. In Christian, saintliness this power is always personified as God." So that's the one characteristic of a sādhu.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: A feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God, the definition of God is there in the Vedic literature, that God is the great. The Christian idea is also that. That greatness, that if we soberly think what is the greatness, the greatness in six opulences, that God is the richest, God is the strongest, and God is the famous, and God is the wisest, and God is the most beautiful, and God is the perfect renounced. He has got so many states, sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), but still He is not very much interested within this material world. He is in spiritual world along with associates. Therefore our proposition is, let us go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: His second characteristic of a sādhu is thus: "He has a sense of the friendly continuity of the ideal power with our own life in a willing self-surrender to its control."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the ideal. Kṛṣṇera saṁsāra kara chāḍi' anācāra. We are member of the same family. God is the supreme father. That is ideal society. What does he say further?

Hayagrīva: The uh... What?

Prabhupāda: Second point.

Hayagrīva: Oh, the second point again? "A sense of the friendly continuity."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Friendly continuity means the, there are so many relationship, five relationship. First relationship is the master and the servant, and then friend to friend, then son and father, and then beloved and the lover. So these are all friendly relationship. We can, when we are actually in God relationship, we have got natural instinct to accept any one of them. So our friendly relationship with God can be chosen. Somebody likes sometime as friend to friend, father and son, or beloved and the lover, master and the servant, and the Supreme and the subordinate. They are five relationship. Any one of them, when we are actually liberated, free from material contamination, we being eternal part and parcel of God, the particular relationship is revived. That is called svarūpa-siddhi, revival of our original relationship with God.

Hayagrīva: Three, he speaks of, "An immense elation, or happiness, and freedom as the outlines of the confining selfhood melt down."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This material selfishness is māyā. Actually that is not selfishness. Real selfishness is to know the relationship with God. But persons who are engrossed with the spell of māyā, illusory energy, they do not know that. Mostly, 99.9%, they have vague idea of God, and how they will know the relationship? So, so that our actual business, first business is to have complete idea, complete sense of God and our relationship. That is the business of human life. Therefore in the Vedic process, the real business is realize God. Either you take yoga system or jñāna system, and bhakti is cent percent simply realization of God. That is the business of human life. He hasn't got to do any other thing. That is practical understanding of God. A perfect human being knows that "My necessities of life is supplied by God, so I have no business to improve the economic condition." That cannot be done also. Nobody is going to be very rich, all of them. According to the destiny he gets his position. So one who is self-realized, he does not want to improve the material condition of life, but he wants to improve the spiritual conception of life. That is human life.

Hayagrīva: Four, he sees, "a shifting of the emotional center toward loving and harmonious affection, toward yes and away from no, where the clangs of the non-ego are concerned." That is to say, agreeing with God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is asking always that "You agree to obey My orders," and as soon as we accept this principle, we immediately becomes liberated: "Yes, from this point I shall now fully agree to the the orders of Kṛṣṇa, or God." That is liberation. The liberation is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: to give up a mode of life other than devotional life. Muktiḥ hitvā anyathā rūpam. Our life is meant for rendering devotional service to the Lord. As soon as we give up this principle of life, devotional service to the Lord, that is our anyathā rūpam, means our living condition otherwise, except devotional service. That living condition otherwise than the devotional service is called conditioned life. And as soon as we come to this platform of devotional service, that is mukti, liberated life. Muktiḥ hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. To remain in one's own constitutional position is called mukti, or liberation. (break)

Hayagrīva: James believes that the existence of many religions in the world is not regrettable but is necessary to the existence of different types of men. He says, "All men have, should have... Should all men have the same religion? Ought they to approve the same fruits and follow the same leadings? Are they so like in their inner needs that exactly the same religious incentives are required? Or are different functions allotted to different types of men, so that some may really be the better for a religion of consolation and reassurance whilst others are better for one of terror and reproof?" And he goes on to conclude that he thinks that difference...

Prabhupāda: This is religion. Therefore I was talking in this morning that accept God as the supreme father and the material nature is the mother and we living entities, in 8,400,000 forms, we are all sons of God. So everyone has got the right to live at the cost of the father. The father is the maintainer—that is natural—and we are maintained. So every living being should be satisfied in the condition given by God. Man should live in his own condition, the animal also should live in his own condition. Why the man should encroach upon the rights, living right of other living entities like the animals? No. Nobody should encroach upon other's right. Everyone is son of God. Let him be maintained by the orders of God. That is ideal life, family life. All living entities are the members of the same family. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says that kṛṣṇera saṁsāra kara chāḍi' anācāra: just live in the family of Kṛṣṇa without violating the rules and regulation. Then it is family life. Or without violating the orders of God. Just like in the family the father is the chief man, and the sons can live very happily by being obedient to the father. There is no trouble; father will give all supplies and necessities if we remain obedient to the father, and all the brothers can live peacefully. A very common example. But they will not do that. They will encroach upon others' jurisdiction. That is the cause of disturbance: obeying..., disobeying the orders of God.

Hayagrīva: Typical of the latter part of the nineteenth century, James' only acquaintance with Hinduism was through the impersonalists, and he spoke of samādhi and the mystical experience in this way. He says, "The Vedantists say that one may stumble into superconsciousness sporadically without the previous discipline, but it is then impure. The test of its purity, like our test of religious value, is empirical. Its fruits must be good for life. When a man comes out of samādhi they assure us that he remains enlightened—a sage, a prophet, a saint, his whole character changed, his life changed, illumined." What is this samādhi or...

Prabhupāda: Samādhi means ecstasy, always in God consciousness. That is samādhi. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā (BG 6.47). The yogis means they are always remaining in meditation of the Supreme Lord. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā. Mind is always absorbed in God. That is samādhi. He has no other thought than God. So if we can continue in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is samādhi.

Hayagrīva: Now James equates this mystical union, or samādhi, to be a union in which the individual has lost contact with the external world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And he therefore concludes that mystical states cannot be sustained for long, except in rare instances. Half an hour or at most an hour or two seems to be the limit beyond which they fade into the light of common day. "Often, when faded, their quality can be but imperfectly reproduced in memory, but when they recur it is recognized, and from one recurrence to another it is susceptible of continuous development in what is felt as inner richness and importance."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That richness comes to perfection when one thinks of Kṛṣṇa constantly, without any cessation. That is recommended in the yogic chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā:

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gata āntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate

yo māṁ sa me bhak...

(BG 6.47)

Uh...

Hari-śauri: Yuktatamo mataḥ.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Sa me yuktatamo mataḥ?

Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. You can find out that verse.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gata āntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate (yo māṁ)

sa me yuktatama...

(BG 6.47)

He is first-class yogi who does not cease to think of Kṛṣṇa, or God. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we keep always in the thought of Kṛṣṇa, twenty-four hours. Then we do not fall down from the yogic principle. That is our...

Hayagrīva: Such mystical states, as James points out, have been also experienced momentarily and artificially through drugs such as ether. William James himself took ether...

Prabhupāda: These are all artificial thing. This is not sustained.

Hayagrīva: LSD and these...

Prabhupāda: Another artificial names. Artificial things cannot sustain, but if you engage yourself in the devotional process, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevā (SB 7.5.23), always hearing a about Kṛṣṇa, always talking about Kṛṣṇa, always remembering about Kṛṣṇa, always engage in some service in the temple—there are so many services—or distributing literature about Kṛṣṇa, in this way, if you keep always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business, that is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: James, after analyzing all of these religions, different religious experiences, he gives his own conclusions, and he concludes his book in this way. He gives five basic conclusions. The first-one—"That the visible world is part of a more spiritual universe from which it draws its chief significance." (break)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material world means it is existing in the spiritual effulgence of the Lord. Just like all the planets they are resting, living within the sunshine, but by geographical position, when it is back side, the sun is not in the front but in the back, then it becomes dark. Similarly, everything is existing in the spiritual effulgence, rays of the Lord, and when you forget, this is called material world. So the material world is in that piece of spiritual world, but forgetfulness of God is material. So when we..., our revival of consciousness, God consciousness, then there is no more material world. For such person who is advanced in spiritual consciousness or God consciousness, there is nothing material; everything is spiritual.

Hayagrīva: Well that's his second conclusion. His second is that "Union or harmonious relation with that higher universe is our true end."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual realization.

Hayagrīva: Three...

Prabhupāda: There is no material realization. No more material realization means no more forgetfulness of our eternal relationship with God. Then it is spiritual.

Hayagrīva: Three: "That prayer or a communion with the spirit thereof, be that spirit God or law, is a process wherein work is really done and spiritual energy flows in and produces effects, psychological or material, within the phenomenal world, for religion produces a new zest which adds itself like a gift to life and takes the form either of lyrical enchantment or of appeal to earnestness and heroism." In other words, our relation with God in the world gives...

Prabhupāda: That we have al...

Hayagrīva: ...it's like a gift to life.

Prabhupāda: ...already explained. We have got five relationships. To realize the creation of God with awe and veneration, appreciation, that is one relationship. This is called śānta rasa. Then further progress is that to offer himself to serve God. That is called dāsya rasa. And further advancement, to treat God as friend, that is sākhya rasa. Then accept God as son, that is vātsalya rasa. And accept God as the most beloved, that is mādhurya rasa. So in this mādhurya rasa, to accept God as the most beloved includes other relationships; therefore here is the highest perfection of relationship. Although all other relationships they are as good, but it depends on the devotee's choice whichever relationship we like. The result is the same, but by comparative study it has been decided by the saintly persons that our relationship with God as the lover and beloved, that is the highest position.

Hayagrīva: The fifth is an assurance of safety and temper of peace and, in relation to others, a preponderance of loving affections.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice. When you actually come in contact with God, these senses prevail. What is that? The last point?

Hayagrīva: An assurance of safety and a temper of peace.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A devotee is always confident that "I am sincerely serving Kṛṣṇa, so in case of danger Kṛṣṇa will save me." The, just like Prahlāda Mahārāja life we see. He was helpless child, and his father, great demon, always chastising him, but he was confident that Kṛṣṇa would save him. So when the things became too much intolerable, so Lord appeared as Nṛsiṁhadeva and killed Hiraṇyakaśipu. So therefore a devotee's protection by God is always guaranteed, and one who is pure devotee, he is not disturbed by any material condition. He keeps his firm faith in God. That is called surrender. It is called avaśya rakśibe kṛṣṇa viśvāsa pālanam, to continue the faith that "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection." This full surrender means to accept things which is favorable to God consciousness, to reject things which is unfavorable to God consciousness, to have firm faith of security under the protection of God, to enter into the family of God. These are the different processes of surrender.

Hayagrīva: He concludes, "In opening ourselves to God's influence, our deepest destiny is fulfilled. The universe takes a turn generally for the worse or for the better in proportion as each one of us fulfills or evades God's demands."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is concept. God demands that "You fully surrender unto Me." So when one fully surrenders unto God, that is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: So that's the conclusion of James. (end)