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Prabhupāda: Shall I address you as father?

Father Simon: I’m Father Simon, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: This is Brother Roger.

Prabhupāda: So father’s father. Father has got a father? Is it not?

Father Simon: Yes (laughs).

Prabhupāda: So let us go. I am father, I have got my father, my father has got father. In this way, who is the ultimate father? There must be one ultimate father. Because I have got my father, my father has got father. So you go on, it does not mean that on the tenth generation or twentieth generation I could not see the father. That does not mean there was no father. There must have—a father.

Therefore, originally, there is the Supreme Father, and your Christian religion recognizes God as the Father. You pray “oh Father”. So, our experience is that I am also father, my father is also father but we are all persons. Therefore, the original Father, the beginning Father—He must be a person. What is your opinion? He cannot be impersonal. Do you agree or not?

Father Simon: Ah, yes, we believe in…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: God as person, yeh quite.

Prabhupāda: So, father is controller. Father controls me, I am son. My father controls me, father controls the family. Therefore, in a small jurisdiction the father is the controller. Similarly, his father he is also controller, the Supreme Father is the Supreme Controller. That is Vedic version:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

(Brahma-saṁhitā 5.1)

The Supreme Father is Kṛṣṇa. All controller. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ—His form is not like us, His form is eternal, full of knowledge, full of bliss.

So why I am being the son of the same Father by descendance—why my body is not like Him? My body is not eternal, I have to give up this body. My body is full of ignorance. There is no knowledge, I do not know what is going on within my body. Still, I claim it is my body. I eat but I do not know how the eatables turn into so many secretions, turn into blood, into urine, into so many things.

They are divided, the big mechanical process is going on. But I do not know exactly. And when there is some disturbance in the metabolism of the function of the bodily machine, I go to the doctor because I do not know. So, therefore, I am full of ignorance—my body.

And sac-cid-ānanda: sat means “eternal”; cit means “full of knowledge”; and ānanda means “full of bliss.” So, this body is full of miseries. It is not blissful. Apart from all other miserable conditions, we have to meet death, which we do not want. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-

duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam

(BG 13.9)

You may be very proud of your advancement of knowledge. But the main problems of life—birth, death, old age, and disease—there is no remedy. You have not discovered any remedy for this miserable condition. Therefore, my body is temporary, it is full of ignorance, it is full of miseries.

God’s body is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of pleasure. This is the distinction between God and myself. Otherwise, God is also a living being—supreme living being. I am also living being. That is stated in the Vedas:

nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām

(Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)

God is the supreme eternal, among the other eternals—other eternals who are the living entities. We are also eternal. You do not die after the destruction of the body:

na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre

(BG 2.20)

So, because we are now in the conditional stage of material life, we are undergoing this birth, death, old age, and disease. Otherwise, we are as good as Kṛṣṇa or God, we have got our spiritual body which is now covered.

Now, our main business is how to become aloof from this conditional life. That is our main business in human life. We should not act in such a way that we become more conditioned. Just like a prisoner in the prison house—his business is how to finish that period of punishment and go out of the prison. Not to increase more entanglement so that he will continue prison life again, again, again.

So that people do not understand—they are trying to be happy in the prison house, which is impossible. Prison house is never meant for happiness. It is meant for giving distress to the criminals so that he may come to his senses. But unfortunately, they are making association, combination to become happy in the prison house. That is their ignorance.

In the prison house, in the material world, there is no possibility of happiness. Therefore, the aim should be to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the main business of human beings—especially because in the animal life it is not possible. They cannot make any progress of spiritual life. But in the human life also, if we remain just like animals, then we are missing the opportunity.

So, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that people may not live like animals. Therefore, all our students, they follow strictly the prohibited principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling.

Illicit sex is animal. Animal has no—in the animal society there is no marriage. Any man-woman mixes and have sex life. That is animal—illicit sex.

Similarly, human being eating meat—that is also animalism. The tigers, the jackals, the cats, dogs—they can eat meat. The human being—just like you have brought so many nice things. They have got—God has given so many nice things—why they should eat meat?

And so far intoxication—in the material condition of life we are already intoxicated. Our brain is agitated—crazy. Because we are accepting this body:

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

(SB 10.84.13)

I am not this body, but I am accepting this body—this is madness. So, if he is indulging again further intoxication, then when will he come to his senses? Therefore, intoxication is also animalism.

And gambling—that is also another lower class of engagement. Why should we gamble? We are destined to some extent suffering or enjoying according to my past karma. We cannot decrease it or increase it. That is not possible. So why should we indulge in gambling? Better that time be utilized for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—God consciousness.

So, this is our program. We are pushing on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of the science of God. It is not a sentimental religious movement. Therefore, we welcome everyone. Everyone from the human society. And they are coming, they are understanding.

Kṛṣṇa was not known—it was known, but not so elaborately—four or five years ago when this European and American, they are accepting this Kṛṣṇa cult. And I think there is very good chance of cooperating with the Christian religion, because Christian religion is also propagating God consciousness. Hm.

But we claim to be a little more accurate—we get the name of God, His activities, His characteristics—everything—stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So, if we cooperate, then the people of the world will be benefited. That is our submission. Hm.

So, what is your opinion about our movement?

Father Simon: I think it is wonderful that so many young people are being inspired to seek the things of God.

Brother Roger: Yeah.

Father Simon: And being helped to love God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So one Father in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that “these boys, they are our boys. From Christian or from Jewish group they have joined this movement. But before that, they are not interested about God. And how it is that they have become mad after God?” This is the statement of a Christian priest in Boston.

Father Simon: I think the great need of this time is for real spiritual teaching, isn’t it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: (indistinct) before.

Prabhupāda: And because Bhagavad-gītā, we understand that is the science of God. God is explaining Himself—what He is. God cannot be known by our mental speculation; He is unlimited. But if He reveals Himself, we can know something about Him.

That is the statement of Bhāgavatam:

ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi

na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ

(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234)

Our present senses are covered by these material ingredients, therefore it is not possible to speculate about God by these material senses. The senses are to be purified to come to the spiritual position. Then, when we apply our senses in the service of the master of the senses…

God is the master of the senses. His name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīka means “senses.” In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, God says—Kṛṣṇa says—“I have got my hands and legs everywhere.” So, my hand is God’s hand. We can easily understand—because a son’s body is created by the father. So, the hand of the son is also hand of the father.

So therefore, our senses—our hands, legs, and everything—they are being God’s property. They should be engaged for God’s activities—not for any other reason. Just like my hand, I use it for my purpose, my hand is not used for your purpose. Similarly, if we realize that the proprietor of my senses is the Supreme Lord, therefore my senses should be engaged for the service of the Lord.

Actually, they are not mine—they are Kṛṣṇa’s, God’s. So that is the formula of bhakti-yoga:

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ

tat-paratvena nirmalam

(Cc. Madhya 19.170)

We are thinking now “I am Indian, I am Englishman, I am German, I am brāhmaṇa, I am kṣatriya, I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim.” They are thinking like that. These are all designations.

So, one should be free from all designations:

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam

He should be purified in God consciousness. “I am servant of God,” or “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Now I am thinking “I am servant of my family, I am servant of my community, I am servant of my nation, I am servant of my group…” So many things. “I am this, I am that.” These are all designations.

Therefore, the formula is sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ—one should be free from all designations. That is called brahma-jñāna—this real identity is “I am part and parcel of God. I am servant of God.” When you come to this sense, then my senses are purified. With that purified sense, we can serve God. That is called bhakti-yoga:

hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-

sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate

(Cc. Madhya 19.170)

Hṛṣīka means “senses.” When the senses are purified, then in that purified sense we serve the Supreme—that is liberation:

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

(aside:) Call that paṇḍita mahāśaya. (Pradyumna)

Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate—that is spiritual existence. So here, our students, they are no more identifying themselves either as Christian or Hindu or German or Englishman or Indian. They are thinking themselves as eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.

So here is factual unity—factual unity, unity on the platform of spirit soul. And unity on the material platform is not possible. Material platform—there is no possibility of… so many times they have tried unity on the material platform. It has failed. That is not possible. Because on the material plane…

(aside:) This door is open. Close it. So, on the spiritual platform there is possibility of imitating (?). Otherwise, there is no possibility of ending it. So, what is your opinion about our movement? Father Simon: I think that we must hope and pray that the Lord will use all these stirring’s to his end. Glory to draw everyone close to Him and we won’t be sidetracked as you say into labels and designations. His (mumble) people so easily take on the externals same thing. Something some craze or fashion or whatever. And identify themselves with that and it becomes another limited thing, another prison. And then the very things that God gives us to enable us to grow out of the prison, to break out of the prison. We build them up into another little prison and they witness that all the religions I think is to this great freedom that God has and that God wants us to have. To get beyond these, to get beyond the merely externals…

Prabhupāda: Boliye (Hindi)

Father Simon: And beyond the (chuckles)…

Prabhupāda: I puzzled; I do not follow.

Revaténandana: Well, he says it’s, it’s very essential. He agrees it’s essential to get beyond these material designations.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revaténandana: And into the higher freedom that God has. That He wants us all to have, is that?

Father Simon: Yes.

Revaténandana: That’s a very brief summary (laughter).

Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the freedom because we are part and parcel of God. God is complete free—His freedom is not dependent on others—svarāṭ. Just like we get some knowledge from our teacher, so God is not dependent like that: svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (BG 3.22). He is self-sufficient, He is complete free. That is the distinction between God and us. And because we are part and parcel of God, we have got little freedom. When you misuse that little freedom that is our material condition. When we use that freedom properly, that is our spiritual condition.

Father Simon: Our great conviction is that it is always God reaching out to us and that if we call Him—Lord. If we call Him the Lord then in surrendering our human, apparent human freedom to Him. He leads us beyond ourselves…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: He is always confronting us with the, the new step that we can take towards Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that you give up any, everything else you just simply surrender to Me, and I give you all protection.

Father Simon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. (aside:) Find that verse.

Pradyumna:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucah

(BG 18.66)

“Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction…”

Prabhupāda: Real religion is to surrender to God. That is real religion. And other’s religion which you have manufactured that maybe temporarily beneficial but that is not real religion. In Bhāgavata also, it is confirmed:

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

(SB 1.2.6)

That type of religion is first class following which one becomes a surrendered devotee to the Supreme Lord. That is first class religion. And, ahaituky apratihatā, that surrender is without any motive. The surrender should be: God is great, I am His servant, so I fully surrender unto Him. Not that I’ll get some motivated profit. There is no such thing, because He will take care of me, He knows everything. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Just like a child is fully surrendered to the parents, the parent is taking care of what the child needs, how the child will be comfortable. So, therefore, our only business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then He will take—there is no need of asking anything from Him. There is no need. He knows, He’s omnipotent, omniscient. He knows my needs and He promises:

teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ

yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham

(BG 9.22)

Just like exactly the father takes care of the child. He knows how the child will be happy, what does he require. Now he requires food, now he requires rest. So, everything is there, he is surrendered simply to the lap of mother, to the care of father. And that kind of surrender is the religion. Completely. And that is, Kṛṣṇa says: sarva-dharmān parityajya. We might have manufactured so many things as religion. Why difference of religion? Why the Hindus, the Christians, the Mohammedans—they think that my religion is different from the others. Religion cannot be different. Religion means God consciousness. If God is one, then religion must be one. And that one religion is surrender to God, that’s all. It doesn’t require any ritualistic ceremony. “God is great, my dear Lord, You are great, I am Your subservient. I forgot it. From this day I surrender unto You. You take charge of me.” That’s all. Even I haven’t got to say “You take charge.” He says “I will take charge.” There is no need of saying also. Simply I have to say: “From this day I am fully surrendered unto You. If You like, You give me protection; if You like, You can kill me; whatever You like, You can do it.”

mārabi rākhabi—yo icchā tohārā

nitya-dāsa-prati tuyā adhikārā

(Mānasa Deha Geha, 3)

Just like now, there is no slave. Formerly a slave, the master could do anything with him. Similarly, if we become a slave-like, then He has—God has—the right to do whatever He likes with me. And that is surrender. And that is religion. That religion is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ… ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucah

(BG 18.66)

What is the translation?

Pradyumna: “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.”

Prabhupāda: So, we suffer for our sinful activities, so we should surrender to God and stop our sinful activities. It is not that because I have surrendered to God so I can go on continue with my sinful activity, God will give me protection. No, that is not. You stop—no more sinful activities. Of course, anyone who has surrendered to God, he cannot indulge in sinful activities. Because he will abide by the orders of God, he cannot be sinful: yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā

(SB 5.18.12)

If anyone is fully surrendered, then he has got all the good qualities of the demigods:

sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ

Surāḥ means “the demigods in higher planetary systems.” Devatā. They have got very good qualities, so in the devotee all the good qualities manifest. That is the test. We cannot find any fault with a devotee because everything is good qualities.

And on the contrary:

harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā

One who is not a devotee, surrendered soul, he has no good quality.

manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ

By his mental speculation he will simply be materially attached. That is the distinction between devotee and non-devotee. For devotee there is no more mental speculation. So, one decision: “I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa.” That’s all. Go on.

Then follow the words of Kṛṣṇa:

manmanā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi

(BG 9.34)

(aside) Find that verse.

Pradyumna:

manmanā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam

ātmānaṁ mat-parāyaṇaḥ

(BG 9.34)

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Pradyumna: “Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.”

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Our process is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, and hearing. This is manmanā—always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And then worshipping the Deity in the temple. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī—worshipping Me. Hm. So, we have got daily class, daily worship, all the devotees they take part. They have got 24 hours engagement. So, mind cannot be diverted from Kṛṣṇa. That is manmanā. Somehow or other he is thinking of Kṛṣṇa—“Now I have to go to preach there, I have to make him member, or I’ll have to lecture there.” Or here also, “Now there is ārati, now there is bhoga, now there is class.” In this way they are engaged thinking of Kṛṣṇa 24 hours. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru.

You have seen our books?

Father Simon: I’ve seen some of your, your books—yes.

Prabhupāda: You can show our books.

Father Simon: You have services at the same times of the day, every day, do you—when you all come together for worship?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: And prayer. Yes.

Prabhupāda: We have got…

Father Simon: Yes, impressed.

Prabhupāda: From morning 4 o’clock to night 10 o’clock, we have got engagements.

Father Simon: Hm.

Prabhupāda: We are publishing all these books in all important languages.

Father Simon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: English, German, French, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese. And in India—Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati—as far as possible, we are publishing in all the languages.

Father Simon: You have your own printing press?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are not printed in our press.

Father Simon: Hm.

Prabhupāda: They are printed in Japan.

Father Simon: In Japan?

Prabhupāda: We cannot print so nicely. (Laughter) Now we are going to print in Germany also; here is the dummy.

Father Simon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revaténandana: We are also printing in England. We have done our first magazine in England recently.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are expanding. And we are selling our books also very nicely. Yes. In America we are selling on the average about $3,000 daily. Is it not?

Revaténandana: I think so.

Pradyumna: At least. Prabhupāda: Yes. In Los Angeles alone, we are collecting $1,000, and similarly, in New York. Pradyumna: In New York also. Prabhupāda: And taking all other places, not less than $3,000 daily. Father Simon: Lord Caitanya was the founder of your movement originally. Prabhupāda: No, no Kåñëa was the founder 5,000 years ago. The founder Kåñëa is the founder and it is coming from time immemorial. Because God is origin so you cannot find out in which date it begins. But from historical point of view this movement was started by Kåñëa 5,000 years ago when Kåñëa was present. Otherwise Kåñëa says in the Bhagavad-gétä, 4th chapter. That He instructed this philosophy formally to the sun god. Now if you take that is, it becomes 40 millions or 400 millions of years ago. He spoke to the sun god. So, apart from that, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gétä: imaà vivasvate yogaà proktavän aham avyayam (BG 4.1) Vivasvate, vivasvate means “the president of the sun planet”—Vivasvän. He is the present president of the sun planet. Or King. There must be one predominator in every planet. So, the name of the person who is predominating in the sun planet is Vivasvän. So, from the historical point of view this philosophy was instructed to sun god over 400 millions of years ago. And apart from that if we take the history of modern age 5,000 years ago when the battle of Kurukñetra took place He instructed. So, from the last 5,000 years it is coming but sometimes it is misinterpreted, the lineage is broken. Therefore, again somebody comes on behalf of Kåñëa, he makes adjustment. Similarly, 500 years ago, the same movement was rejuvenated by Caitanya Mahäprabhu. And we are also following this same footsteps, we are trying to preach this same cult in the Western countries. Now, since 1966, but the movement is very old, it is not that we have started a new movement. No. The same thing which was spoken 400 millions of years ago to the sun god. The same thing which was spoken by Kåñëa to Arjuna and the same thing which was rejuvenated by Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu we are presenting the same thing. And the proof is that either 400 millions of years ago, or 5,000 years ago Kåñëa says “surrender unto Me.” That’s all. And we are preaching surrender to Kåñëa, so where is the difference? We are speaking the same thing either it was spoken 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago there is no change in the movement. We do not say now we have advanced so much there is no need of surrendering to Kåñëa you can go on with your own work. (Laughter) We don’t say that we say the same thing repetition of the same thing therefore it is called disciplic succession—we don’t change. How it can be changed? God is eternal, we are also eternal our relationship is eternal. Therefore, the service must be eternal, there is no question of change. Everything is eternal: nityo nityänäà cetanaç cetanänäm eko yo bahünäà vidadhäti kämän (Kaöha Upaniñads 2.2.13) These are the statements of the Vedas and the Bhagavad-gétä also: ahaà sarvasya prabhavo mattaù sarvaà pravartate iti matvä bhajante mäà budhä bhäva-samanvitäù (BG 10.8) In the Vedänta (1.1.2) also it is said: janmädy asya yataù. In Bhägavata (1.1.1) also it is said ah, om namo bhagavate väsudeväya janmädy asya yataù. The same thing is there in every Vedic literature, vedaiç ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). By studying Vedas, one has to understand what is Kåñëa, so anyone who takes Kåñëa as He speaks about Himself. Then his knowledge is perfect. Because what Kåñëa says—that is perfect. Perfect means in any statement where there is no mistake, there is no illusion, there is no cheating. And there is no imperfectness of the senses, that is perfect statement. Our so-called knowledge is gathered by the imperfect senses, our senses are not perfect. Unless we hear about the sun planet, if we see the sun planet by our eyes—direct perception. We see just like a disc; but when you take authoritative statement from geologist and others then you understand that it is so many times bigger than this earth. Therefore, direct perception of the sun globe is not perfect. So, nowadays there are so many scientific theories, philosophical. They, they authorise “I think; I think, in my opinion” but he does not think that he is imperfect what is the value of his opinion? He does not think so. What is the value of his thinking if he is imperfect? And that is a fact, our senses are not perfect. I am proud of possessing these eyes, but I cannot understand anything if I see a thing from distant place neither I can see the nearest eyeball or the eyelid. So, there are conditions. There is no light I cannot see, so I see under conditions. So, what is the perfection? But they write books, “I think, I see,” but what you see, nonsense? What is the value of your eyes? That is the defect. But God has no such defects therefore whatever He says is perfect, vedähaà samatétäni. (aside:) Find out this verse, vedähaà samatétäni. Pradyumna: vedähaà samatétäni vartamänäni cärjuna bhaviñyäëi ca bhütäni mäà tu veda na kaçcana (BG 7.26) Prabhupāda: Hm. Pradyumna: “O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.” Prabhupāda: So, we should take knowledge from the person who knows the past present and future. I may not know it because I am imperfect, but He knows me. So, our business is to receive knowledge from the Supreme Perfect then our knowledge is perfect. Father Simon: I see in one of these books you talk about the beauty of God. Prabhupāda: Hm? Father Simon: Is this a theme that is important in your spirituality that God reveals Himself as immensely beautiful and attractive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: So that when you begin to see Him… Prabhupāda: Yes, God means He must be all attractive. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: All attractive, His beauty must be. There are attractive features we can experience in this material world. If a man is very rich, he is attractive. If a man is very learned scholar, he is attractive. If a man is very strong, he is attractive. If a man is very beautiful, he is attractive. So, these are the attractive features, there are six kinds of attractive features. Wealth, beauty, strength, influence, knowledge, renunciation; like that. So, God is endowed with all these attractive features—in full. That is the statement of the Vedas: aiçvaryasya samagrasya véryasya yaçasaùçriyaùjïäna-vairägyayoç caiva sarva ité bhagäìganä (Viñëu Puräëa 6.5.47) Bhagavän God’s, the etymological expression of God is Bhagavän. Bhaga means “opulences.” Nobody can be richer than Him, nobody can be wiser than Him, otherwise how God is great? Great in every respect. Either in riches or in beauty or in knowledge or in reputation or in strength or in renunciation—everything. He must be the great. Nobody can be richer than God. In India there is a rascal he makes like this little gold. Some yogic mystic power now he has become God. Revaténandana: Makes what? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotees: Gold. Prabhupāda: Yes, he will show some magic, take a little gold. It will not stay but by this he has become God. Devotee: He claims to have become God Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He claims to become God. Prabhupāda: Yes. He claims but there are fools, and they accept also. So I say that if gold making is the qualification of God then why shall I take this man as God? I shall take that man who has created gold mines. If that is the qualification of God. So, God has created this material world and each and every planet there are millions and millions of goldmines. All over the universe, so why shall I take this cheat-man—as God? Why not the big man who has created the goldmines, if that is the qualification of becoming God. Come to logic, eh? So, these things are going on especially in India they made so many (laughter)… There are so many rascals they are claiming and now here one rascal has come another. Revaténandana: Yeah, he says this…His followers say when I take the secret session, they touch my eyes and I, I see some light. Nobody else can see, right. But they say I can see some light therefore He is God. Prabhupāda: Who knows that you see? Revaténandana: What about this light? Prabhupāda: Then you say that you have seen but nobody says… Revaténandana: Nobody else can see. You know (laughs). Prabhupāda: Then what nonsense God you are? Revaténandana: Yeah. But what a little, what a very little bit of light, you see. Everybody can see the sun (laughs). Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: There is so much light. Prabhupāda: But there are rascals they follow like that, what can be done? God is so cheap that because he has see some light he has become God. Just see. What light he sees nobody knows, and he says “nobody can see.” Then where is the confirmation? Who can say you’re actually seeing or not? So, this bluffing is going on. But when the real God is there they are not accept. Who is accepted by stalwart scholars, leading personality, äcäryas, that is not accepted. Somebody says, “I have seen some light, I am God”; therefore, he is accepted. Cheap-god. God says here that the whole universal material creation is resting in one fourth energy: ekäàçena sthito jagat athavä bahunaitena kià jïätena tavärjuna. (aside) Find out this verse. athavä bahunaitena kià jïätena tavärjuna viñöabhyäham idaà kåtsnam ekäàçena sthito jagat (BG 10.42) … Athavä. I think it is in the 12th chapter. Pradyumna: Athavä bahunaitena? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: athavä bahunaitena kià jïätena tavärjuna viñöabhyäham idaà kåtsnam ekäàçena sthito jagat (BG 10.42) “But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself, I pervade and support this entire universe.” Revaténandana: That’s at the end of the tenth chapter. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is tenth chapter. Revaténandana: Tenth chapter, at the end of it, yeah. Father Simon: Detailed knowledge. Prabhupāda: Hm. Father Simon: I think leads people closer to God, doesn’t it? Saint Teresa one of the great Christian Saints waged a lifelong campaign against people who knew a little and thought they knew everything. And she had a great belief in real learning because her experience of really learned priests was that even though they perhaps haven’t experienced much themselves. Because they were really learning they had a large understanding of what God could do and so were open to recognize His acts. But the semi-lettered people she called them “the half-educated people” who have got a little bit of knowledge and then think “this is it I know everything.” They are the people who push everybody along a narrow little road and saying, “this is the way.” (chuckles) Prabhupāda: This is that. Anyone who is claiming that he has knowledge he must receive the knowledge from the perfect. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, his knowledge is not perfect. Father Simon: Well, real knowledge is always very humble in some ways. Prabhupāda: Yes, always, real knowledge is received from the perfect. Our process is that we accept knowledge in the descending process. Not by the ascending process. There are two kinds of ways. By speculation just like they are trying to know the sun, the moon they are trying to go there this is ascending process. Ascending process. But there is another process—descending process, the knowledge comes from the moon, from the sun from other planets. But that is perfect knowledge. Because that knowledge is coming from a person who actually resides—that is perfect knowledge. And because my speculative power is limited therefore, I cannot understand anything by this speculative knowledge. Revaténandana: Even scriptures. If I study a scripture in the same way, I’ll try to understand it by my potency. Father Simon: Yeah. Revaténandana: I can make mistakes; I will make mistakes. Father Simon: Yes, scripture speaks with its own authority. And it is indirect… (indistinct) Revaténandana: If I don’t, I don’t hear, I don’t understand such good authority. Father Simon: I’ve suffered a lot from scripture scholars. (chuckles). Who are too clever to believe. And not clever (mumble)… Prabhupāda: No, when there is no speculative knowledge there is no question of belief it is fact. There is a verse in Brahma-saàhitä: panthäs tu koti-çata-vatsara-sampragamyo väyor athäpi manaso muni-puìgavänäm so 'py asti yat prapada-sémny avicintya-tattve govindam ädi-puruñaà tam ahaà bhajämi (Bs. 5.34) Now there is kingdom of God, every scripture, every religion accepts. Now if you want to find out where is that kingdom of God. So: panthäs tu koti-çata-vatsara-sampragamyo. The modern scientist says that to go to the highest planetary system it will take 40,000 of years. Now if you want to go to the spiritual kingdom which is far beyond this material world. So how you will go there? Because you cannot finish this material world even by 40,000 of years, you’re not going to live even 40 hundreds of years, or 40 years nowadays. (chuckles). So, I will finish this material span 40,000 years, then we have to… So far, we have got information the universe is covered by layers of five elements: earth, air, water stock (?). So, each layer is ten times more than the other layer. So, you have to penetrate through that then you come to the spiritual sky. Then there is spiritual planets and the highest planet is called Goloka Våndävana where Kåñëa lives. So therefore, if we want to go there by our own endeavour. Then the Brahma-saàhitä says: panthäs tu koti-çata-vatsara-sampragamyo. If you travel millions of years to go to that planet with the speed of mind and air a still it will be unknown to you. This is ascending process but when Kåñëa comes he gives the information: na tatra bhäsayate süryo na çaçäìko na pävakaù yad gatvä na nivartante. (aside) Find out. Tad dhäma paramaà. It is the information. Pradyumna: na tad bhäsayate süryo na çaçäìko na pävakaù yad gatvä na nivartante tad dhäma paramaà mama (BG 15.6) Pradyumna: “That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.” Prabhupāda: So, there is a place where there is no need of illumination by sunlight or moonlight—it is self-illuminated. Just like we, the sun planet here, we have got one instance. The sun does not require any illumination, the planet itself is light. Similarly, the spiritual sky all the planets there—Vaikuëöha-loka—they are self-illuminating, there is no darkness. Therefore, this material world is called tamaù. Tamaù means “darkness.”Tamasi mä jyotir gamaù (Båhad-äraëyaka Upaniñad 1.3.28). The Vedic instruction is don’t remain in this dark world it is by nature dark therefore it requires this electricity. The sun, the moon but there is another world which is self-illuminating there is no need of… That is there stated, na tad bhäsayate süryo na çaçäìko na pävakaù yad gatvä na nivartante tad dhäma paramaà mama (BG 15.6) So, we have to take knowledge in that way. There is spiritual world, here is the description. There are other descriptions also in Bhägavatam. The spiritual world. There is also aeroplane, everything is there but they are all spiritual. Here everything is material. Giving the best service to the human society that, yad gatvä na nivartante—just try to go to that place where from you haven’t got to return again. You live there eternally with full knowledge and bliss, and this is our business. And we are not manufacture this ideas they are all stated in the Bhagavad-gétä. We are simply distributing that knowledge. Revaténandana: Everybody else is trying to enjoy the prison house. Prabhupāda: Hah! Revaténandana: And we are leaving (laughs). Prabhupāda: We are kicking your… (Laughter) Kicking this nonsense, what is this? Duùkhälayam açäçvatam (BG 8.15). It is duùkhälayam. Kåñëa says: äbrahma-bhuvanäl lokäù even if you go to the highest planet. You may get a duration of life—millions of years. But that does not mean you become eternal, that is not possible: äbrahma-bhuvanäl lokäù punar ävartino 'rjuna. If you are actually serious of having eternal life, blissful and full of knowledge then you must go back to home back to Godhead. That is possible: mad-yäjino 'pi yänti mäm (BG 9.25)—my devotees go, come there, here. What is that? Pradyumna: äbrahma-bhuvanäl lokäùpunar ävartino 'rjuna mäm upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate (BG 8.16) “From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunté, never takes birth again.” Prabhupāda: That’s it. So why not try for this? There is another verse: yänti deva-vratä devän pitèn yänti pitå-vratäù, bhütejyä yänti bhütäni mad-yäjino 'pi yänti mäm Pradyumna: yänti deva-vratä devän pitèn yänti pitå-vratäù bhütäni yänti bhütejyä yänti mad-yäjino 'pi mäm (BG 9.25) “Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.” Prabhupāda: That’s all. So why should I go, waste my time to go to the ghosts and ancestor and demigod, why not go to Kåñëa? Because I have to work for that so why not work for the best? This is our function. It is clearly stated that you, if you prepare for going to the higher… Not in this way that I have got a sputnik I shall go. No. That is not possible. You have to prepare yourself to go to the moon planet, to the sun planet, to the Venus. There are innumerable, you can go there to the Brahma-loka planet, yänti deva-vratä devän. So, you have to prepare in this life, similarly if you want to go to the pitå-loka and other places you have to prepare. And if you prepare yourself to come to My place—you can come. So, what will be my duty—so why not work for going back to Kåñëa’s place? That is intelligence. I have to work for going somewhere if somebody says you can take ticket either for moon planet or sun planet or Vaikuëöha planet. Then what ticket I shall take? Give me the Vaikuëöha ticket (laughter). Why shall I take the sun planet or moon planet? This is intelligence, why shall I waste my time again? Give me that ticket. So, this is intelligence. Devotee: And you take the ticket by surrendering. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Ticket is distributed free Kåñëa coming “take this ticket.” His devotees are coming “take this ticket” but we are “no, we shall rot here,” that’s all. That is my determination. Revaténandana: What do you think about this being born and dying again and again? This is the assumption in this whole discussion now. This is… Father Simon: Well, it isn’t necessarily a…I mean the basic assumption is that man is made for eternal life. And from that point of view temporal life is prison. And one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” Which I think is quite good that this is the… Revaténandana: He says one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” And unending time always to be in the conception of time. Father Simon: Hm. Revaténandana: That’s very nice. Father Simon: And I don’t… Christian don’t believe that we have one after another bodily existence here. But I think they have practical point is the same, isn’t it? That our business here on earth is to learn how to be citizens of heaven. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And I think that, I mean just as we would say… Prabhupāda: What is the description of heaven? Is there any description? Father Simon: Well, all kinds of descriptions of heaven. They’re they are just pictures. One is very like one that you have mentioned where you don’t need the sun or the moon because God is their light and “let us walk in the light of the Lord.” Prabhupāda: Then heaven means kingdom of God? Father Simon: Kingdom of God. Devotee: Hm. Revaténandana: Sometimes. Devotee: Yes. Father Simon: Yes Revaténandana: Some, sometimes it is deceived (?) in that way. Prabhupāda: We have got our Vedic description. The standard of living—very, very high. Revaténandana: Sometimes it’s… Prabhupāda: Duration of life—very long. For 10,000 years of the… Everything is very nice or nicer, better than this place. But that is not spiritual. You can live for 10,000 years but in the spiritual world there is no such thing, you live eternally. Na nivartante (BG 15.6), one does not come. So heavenly planet is also temporary because this universe will be annihilated there will be dissolution of the whole universe at that time this heavenly planets also will be dissolved. So that is not permanent. That is the conception of heavenly: kñéëe puëye punaù martya-lokaà viçanti svarga-lokaàmartya-lokaà (BG 9.21) The standard of living may be very high but that is not permanent residence. Therefore, Kåñëa says; mad-dhäma gatvä, punar janma na vidyate (BG 8.16). So, as we are eternal, we must return to eternal world and that is perfection of life. Why should we remain in this temporary life and accept repetition of birth and death? dehino 'smin yathä dehe kaumäraà yauvanaà jarätathä dehäntaraà-präptir (BG 2.13) Dehäntaraà-präptir—they are accepting another body. So, this transmigration of the soul, accepting another body, is very risky. I do not know what kind of body I am going to take next. But if I prepare in Kåñëa consciousness, but Kåñëa says that you can come back. janma karma me divyam yo jänäti tattvataùtyaktvä dehaà punar janma naiti mäm eti.. (BG 4.9) So, if you follow Kåñëa’s instruction in devotional service. Then you are confident that you are going to Kåñëa. Go back to home back to God. Father Simon: I’m glad to hear you say that because I think a lot of Westerners have a very wrong idea of Eastern teaching on this and think that it means that you don’t have to bother because if you don’t get there in this life you have another life and another life and you will get there one day. Prabhupāda: So why do they think wrong? Father Simon: I was thinking… Prabhupāda: Is that right? They are right to even think… Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine. Prabhupāda: Eh? Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine. Prabhupāda: Which one? Father Simon: A very dangerous doctrine. Prabhupāda: Which one? Father Simon: That you can forget about, you needn’t worry if you don’t get there this time, you’ll get there next time. Because since we, all the real spiritual teaching says you have got your chance now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And you must take it now (chuckles). Prabhupāda: That chance is always, the chance is always there. Father Simon: Yes, but as you say it transmigration is a risky, (chuckles) a risky business. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes risky business… Father Simon: There is no reason to suppose it’s going to be (indistinct)… Prabhupāda: Because if one does not know what kind of body he is going to get next life. Is it not risky? Father Simon: And if you keep putting off the time. Then you will make it harder. Revaténandana: If you keep putting off spiritual life you are making it harder and harder to take to it. Prabhupāda: That is risky, that I am saying. Devotee: Process (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That is risky. If you become Kåñëa conscious and prepare yourself for going back to home back to Godhead that is not risky. But if you remain in darkness, you do not know…Karmés they do not know they are working hard just like hogs and dogs without knowing any future of life. Their life is very risky. They do not know. How they’ll may transmigrate from this body to another body therefore their life is risky. One who has understood this fact that there is life after death and if I try for it, I can go to the kingdom of God. So let me try for this, his life is not risky his life is… One who is in darkness he does not know what is happening next, he’s risky, his life is risky. Brother Roger: This is also clear, my lord, that this, the use of this body now is a privilege—surely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brother Roger: And that surely this (indistinct)… Prabhupāda: This is the only body… Brother Roger: …you transmigrate… Prabhupāda: Where you can, when you can prepare for going back to home back to Godhead. In the next life you get a body of a cat or dog then for millions of years you have no knowledge. Then you have to again make progress… Evolve from dog to cat, or cat to dog like that there is evolutionary process. So, it will take millions and millions of again to come to this human form of life. And again, coming in the human form of life we, if you don’t prepare yourself for going back to home back to Godhead. Then you are missing the chance. Nature gives you the chance, now you have got this body you take information how to go back to home back to Godhead and prepare yourself and be happy. But if you don’t take advantage of it, we remain like cats and dogs—then you are missing. If you again become entangled with sinful activities, then you are missing the chance. Father Simon: It’s always that very simple invitation of God’s grace, isn’t it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: That every man (indistinct) He is saying come to me… Prabhupāda: God is reminding, He’s canvassing, He’s canvassing. Sarva-dharmän parityajya mäm eté (BG 18.66)—you come to Me. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: You take shelter of Me, I will give you all protection but we won’t take. Father Simon: As we have it in the Christian scriptures, the Lord waits to be gracious, to (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes, He’s already gracious, He’s coming Himself. He is sending His devotee, He’s sending His representative, He’s leaving the book—you study. He is giving the instruction, every way God is helping us. He is sitting within your heart, He’s giving you good counsel but we are determined not to accept anything of God. So that life is very risky. Now in the Bhagavad-gétä we understand: tathä dehäntaraà-präptir (BG 2.13). We have to change this body to another body. Now that body we can see there are so many billions and trillions of varieties of body. At least according to çäçtra 8,400,000. So, we may enter any of them—according to our work. karmaëä daiva-netreëa jantur dehopapattaye (SB. 3.31.1) We are preparing next body by our karma. We have been given the chance of human form of body to understand God, but if we do not do that, if we remain like cats and dogs and then the next life again become cats and dogs. After all we have to accept another body, the soul is eternal when this body is useless no more fit for living, I have to give it up and take another body. That is given: väsäàsi jérëäni yathä vihäya (BG 2.22), just like we put on some dress, garment. When it is not fit, we throw it away, we take another garment. So, this body is also like that. (indistinct) (End)