711111 - Conversation in English and Hindi - Delhi
(Redirected from Room Conversation -- November 11, 1971, New Delhi)
Tejiyas: So this is Sri Madan. He is architect.
Prabhupāda: Madan Mohan.
Tejiyas: And this is Sri . . .
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . .
(break) (Hindi) Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). Then?
Tejiyas: This is Sri Naran Svarupa Sharma. He was professor in England and then Member of Parliament here.
Tejiyas: And he has been helpful. Very nice.
Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā (SB 10.22.35). (Hindi) Just see our condition. You have read this morning's paper?
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Swami Akhandananda is speaking kalpanā. Such a big sannyāsī, he says that Kṛṣṇa is kalpanā.
Guest (1): What was that now?
Prabhupāda: Swami Akhandananda, he was . . .
Guest (1): Swami Akhandananda, I see. But yes, in Birla temple.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Birla temple is speaking that Kṛṣṇa is kalpanā.
Guest (2): Kalpanā.
Prabhupāda: Yes, kalpanā. Māyāvādī theory is brahma nirākāra, so . . . (Hindi) You can imagine that God is so insignificant that you can imagine His form. This dangerous theory is going on in India. God is so insignificant that you can imagine, at your whims, whatever you like. Ramakrishna Mission is also preaching this, and our this big, big sannyāsī, they also preaching this. God is a subject matter for . . ., of my imagination, He is so insignificant. You have seen the paper?
Guest (1): No. I haven't read this particular statement.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Rayānanda(?), can you get that paper, Hindustan?
Guest: Quite surprising. He's quite a learned scholar.
Prabhupāda: The learned scholar, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is āsurī. Then māyaya apahṛta-jñānā. Therefore, however learned they may be, māyā takes away their knowledge.
Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśr . . . That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me. I am a tiny soul. And if a learned sannyāsī says like that, how many thousands of people will believe in that, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions. (Hindi) . . .hodgepodge (Hindi).
Guest: Another one, Bala-yogi, has made a statement that "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."
Guest: "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."
Prabhupāda: I will call . . .?
Guest (2): "Anybody but not Hindu."
Guest: He is not Hindu, he says.
Guest (2): Bal-yogeswara, some other saint. He said, "I am not a Hindu."
Guest: He was giving this sermon in . . . (indistinct) . . ..
Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) . . ..
Guest: Nobody is now, I think.
Prabhupāda: (referring to paper) (Hindi) What is the heading?
Guest: This one? (reads in Hindi)
Prabhupāda: "To imagine." By imagination one is going to tattva-vasya, Absolute Truth. Just see the theory. By imagination you have to reach the tattva-vasya. Tattva means Absolute Truth, reality, and that is subjected to man's imagination.
Guest: You see, Swāmījī, this is the headline, which is not a Akhandananda's statement. Only the reporter has put up the headline.
Prabhupāda: But people will read as Akhandananda's . . .
Guest: Yes, sir.
Guest (2): Why don't you read the whole matter? Śrīla Prabhupāda says, he says, and he says it very wrongly, that . . . (indistinct) . . .. You read the whole matter. The summary of the whole matter is the same. This is very wrong.
Prabhupāda: Vasudeva, you just . . ., you can read the whole thing. It is imagination. Tattva . . . (break) . . .you imagine yourself that "My lover will be like this, like this, like that." In this way he will reach to the reality. Do you think it is very nice argument?
Guest: (Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda as Prabhupāda reads article) He is not a bhakta.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Huh?
Guest: He is not a bhakta, he is a scholar.
Prabhupāda: What is the nonsense scholar (laughter) if he does not know the truth? (Hindi) Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā (BG 7.15). Scholar maybe superficially, but real knowledge is taken away by māyā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu (Hindi) māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If people hear him, then for good he will be lost in bewilderedness. (Hindi conversation) Why do you think that you are sinner? (Hindi conversation) Our theory is not that. Kṛṣṇa is fighting. He is inducing fight against irreligiosity.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no higher reality than Me." Are we imaginists? Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: "There is nothing," I mean, "as higher reality than Me." And these people are taking Him as a mūrta-vigrahaḥ, kalpanā. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: No. Why this word kalpanā is there? That is . . ., that is my point. Kalpanā means something false imagination. Kalpanā is not reality, and Kṛṣṇa says that "There is no higher reality than Me." And He became the subject matter of my kalpanā. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Let it become reality.
Prabhupāda: Why this word should be used as kalpanā? I don't think the newspaper reporter can write in that way unless this word was actually spoken.
Guest: This is Times? Hindustan? (Hindi)
Guest: He says imagination is the supermost.
Guest: (reading Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Bhagavān is sac-cid-ānanda vigrahaḥ. Bhagavān says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. (Hindi) sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayaḥ (BG 14.4). Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. (Hindi) So practical experience (Hindi).
- īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
- anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
- (Bs. 5.1)
(Hindi) They have been cut with two hands because I have got really two hands. (Hindi) Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). (Hindi) Origin, I am spirit soul. (Hindi) Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta (BG 15.7). (Hindi) Bhagavān katha mamaivāṁśo. So bhagavān nirākāra. Bhagavān avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāh, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). (Hindi) is all for imagination.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) . . .program he, I shall return to USA by the month of March. So, December, January, February. (Hindi conversation) Thank you very much. (Hindi) We are dealing with facts. (Hindi) The . . ., already everything is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. We have to simply explain them. That's all. Explanation (Hindi). You cannot stop sunshine. That is not possible.
But you close yourself in the dark room. It is not possible to cover Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. But by jugglery of words you close yourself in a dark room. (Hindi conversation) Oh, thank you. All right, thank you very much. Come on. No. (Hindi) (laughs)
(aside) You can open this and distribute it.
(Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi conversation) (break) (Hindi)
Guest: . . . (indistinct) . . . Any worship, we first worship Lord Ganeśa, in . . .
Prabhupāda: That is not necessary. That is not necessary. If we worship other demigods to fulfill our some particular desire (Hindi). There are different demigods they worship, but one who knows that "If I approach Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, then everything is obtained . . ."
Guest: You say a true devotee of Kṛṣṇa, such a person need not go after the demigods?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Guest: Secondly . . .
Prabhupāda: There is no need.
Guest: But if he goes after demigods . . .
Prabhupāda: If he wants some material profit. (Hindi conversation) So kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Tulsidas is different; therefore we don't take Tulsidas as authority.
Guest: Not? Then, sir, there is Rāma and there is Kṛṣṇa. You have Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Rāma is Hari. Kṛṣṇa is considered Hari. So when you . . .
Prabhupāda: No, Rāma . . . Bhagavān has different forms: rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (Bs. 5.39). Bhagavān can expand in both.
Guest: That's good. So that explains . . .
Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu-tattva. That is called viṣṇu-tattva.
Guest: In that expansion can't we take Durgā and Śiva, even for . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is śakti-tattva. We have to take expansion according to the tattva. Substance and categories; in which category. The substance is Viṣṇu, and all other tattvas are categories. So devatās, they are śakti-tattva, śakti category, the same category as you are. The same example: just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly, you can become also Durgā. You can become Indra, Candra, Sūrya.
So qualitatively the ant, you or a learned brāhmaṇa, they are all the same category.
- brahmaṇe gavi hastini
- śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
- paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
- (BG 5.18)
A paṇḍita knows that they are on the same jīva-tattva categories. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, there are many tattvas. Brahman-tattva, paramātmā-tattva and bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other tattvas, they are jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, like that.
So Bhagavān is not jīva-tattva, but others, they are jīva-tattva. Demigods, they are jīva-tattva. Brahmā is also jīva-tattva. Devī is śakti-tattva. Jīva is also śakti-tattva. In one sense jīva-tattva is higher than this material śakti-tattva. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- apareyam itas tu
- viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parāḥ
- jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho
- yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat
- (BG 7.5)
Guest: For meditation, which form of should we . . .
Prabhupāda: Meditation Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu form.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu form is the objective. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayo. Viṣṇu-padma lakṣar(?), Ṛg Veda mantra. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ divīva cakṣur ātatam, like that.
Guest: But in the Eleventh Chapter of the Gītā . . .
Guest: . . .when Lord has shown His virāṭ-darśana . . .
Guest: . . .He has shown Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśa, etc. They are all in Him.
Guest: Subordinate to Him.
Prabhupāda: You are also in Him.
Guest: They are subordinate to Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Subordinate. Yes.
Guest: Therefore to meditate on Kṛṣṇa, the only Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. To meditate upon Kṛṣṇa is the highest yogic principle.
Guest: So that's what I asked . . .
Prabhupāda: Generally yogīs, they observe viṣṇu-tattva, generally.
Guest: For what . . .
Prabhupāda: But higher yogīs, bhakta-yogīs, they see only Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47).
Guest: What is fit for lay people? Which form should we meditate upon?
Prabhupāda: For Kali-yuga, this is Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya (SB 12.3.51). Kali-yuga, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya.
Guest: I asked which form, that is the form . . .
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa form.
Guest: Kṛṣṇa form holding muralī(?) in His hand?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Veṇu, muralīdhara.
- veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ
- barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda sundarāṅgam
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
- (Bs. 5.30)
Guest: But when you chant "Rāma," the other . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāma is another . . . There is no difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṇa. If you like . . .
Guest: The form comes different in the . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, but they are the same. Rāmādi mūrti.
Guest: For purpose of practice I am asking, when you chant Rāma, should you have the form of Rāma before you?
Prabhupāda: That, that depends on your affection. Bhagavān has got many forms. If you want, if you love Rāma, that's all right. If you love Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. If you love Nārāyaṇa, that is also all right. But Bhagavān mūrti, rāmādi-mūrtiṣu.
Guest: Along with Rādhe? (Hindi) (laughter)
Prabhupāda: That is incongruency. Rāma with Sītā.
Guest: Along with . . .
Guest: Kṛṣṇa along with Rādhikā.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa with Rādhārāṇī.
Guest: Then what is Rādhā category?
Prabhupāda: The same śakti. Cit-śakti. Bhagavān ke pleasure potency. Śakti, śakti-tattva. So śaktimān. Bhagavān is śaktimān, and that śakti is Rādhārāṇī or Sītā or Lakṣmī. Durgā is also śakti, another feature of Rādhārāṇī.
Guest: Śakti in original is Rādhā?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Parāsya śaktih . . ., parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). (Hindi) Originally cit-śakti. Cit-śakti. That cit-śakti is expanding. Just like we are . . ., rāmādi mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (Bs. 5.39). Kalā means part and parcel. So we are also part and parcel, but we are very small part and parcel.
But rāmādi mūrti, they are bigger part and parcel. Just like if you throw one brick on the floor, so there will be so many small particles, big particles, this particle, that par . . . They are all part and parcel of the brick, but one part, very small atomic part, and one big part, this part, this part, then this part, then this part. So all, Kṛṣṇa is the origin, and everyone is part and parcel. Some of them are bigger and some of them are smaller. So viṣṇu-tattva is almost like Kṛṣṇa.
Guest: Like Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Others, they are very small. So according to the size, or according to the power . . .
Prabhupāda: . . .the part and parcel exercises his position. Some of them are viṣṇu-tattva, some of them are jīva-tattva, some of them are śakti-tattva and some of them para-tattva. Like that.
Prabhupāda: Para-tattva is Bhagavān. Para-tattva means Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu. These are para-tattvas. Bhagavān avatāra, rāmā, nṛsiṁha, varāha, kūrma, vāmana, daśāvatāra, all avatāra. (Hindi) Or śakti-tattva, material energy, aparā-tattva, matter. Similarly cit-tattva, spiritual world. The living entities, although they are in the material world, they belong to the spiritual world. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, apareyam. This material energy is inferior. Itas viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. Beyond this there is another, superior energy, jīva-bhūta. That is jīva.
Devotee: Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu . . .
Devotee: Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu . . .
Devotee: Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in which category?
Prabhupāda: He is para-tattva.
Devotee: And, uh . . .
Prabhupāda: Any viṣṇu-tattva is para-tattva.
Guest: What is definition of . . . (indistinct) . . .?
Guest: Some people say that jīva is a, you see, surrounded by (Hindi).
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) False. False ego. He is misidentifying with this matter. He is not matter. So this ahaṅkāra, this identification, has to be purified by understanding himself that "I am Brahman. I am not matter." That is purification. And as soon as he is purified, brahma-bhūta . . .. Now jīva-bhūta, but when he becomes brahma-bhūta, then he becomes jolly. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54).
That is the symptom. Not that "I am realized Brahman." But the symptom will be there. If he says, "I am very rich man," then I'll see what is the symptom, whether you have got a nice car, you have got many servants, and "Oh, yes, you are rich man." And if you are walking on the street with a sweeper, how can I accept you?
Guest: If I am that bad balances and . . . (indistinct) . . .. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Subject to your symptom. (laughter) (Hindi)
Guest: We're just asking questions and questions. . . . (indistinct) . . . Endeavor to understand it. . . . (indistinct) . . . That we have come to receive. . . . (indistinct) . . .
Prabhupāda: Bhagavān's rāsa-līla is very confidential. It is not for ordinary men. (Hindi) So, step by step (Hindi). Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa rāsa-līla, Kṛṣṇa with young girls dancing, embracing, kissing, just like ordinary novel and nātha. They like it. So these professional Bhāgavata readers, they take advantage of the people's inferior quality, of their weakness, and make money. That's all.
Guest: That's why I wanted to know . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. They make money.
Guest: . . .the real significance, that spiritual . . .
Prabhupāda: The significance . . ., there is no significance. These professional Bhāgavata readers, they make money from the public because public wants to hear all these things. Just like we read a novel—a woman is embracing a man, or kissing or having sex. They like it. Therefore they go the Bhāgavata Tenth Canto immediately. Their Bhāgavata reading is professional, not understanding of Kṛṣṇa.
If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then go step by step, one by one. First of all read Bhagavad-gītā, try to understand, and you surrender to Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa says, then you enter. Just like after passing entrance examination you enter into the college. Similarly, when you are qualified in accepting Kṛṣṇa as all in all, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66), then you enter into Bhāgavata.
Bhāgavata is the graduate study, not ordinary study. But these professionals, they take advantage of the weakness of the people, and they make profession and earn some money. That's all. When we speak of Bhāgavata we speak from First Canto, Second Canto, Third Canto . . ., the nine cantos to understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like in First Canto the beginning, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, janmādy asya yataḥ. This is Vedānta-sūtra verse. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. (Hindi) Come to Kṛṣṇa for perfect knowledge, then you'll understand what is kṛṣṇa-līlā.
Guest: . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end).