770127 - Conversation A - Jagannatha Puri

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770127R1-PURI - January 27, 1977 - 60:23 Minutes

Prabhupāda: We are under mercy of Kṛṣṇa.

Gargamuni: To rectify us. It is a place to rectify.

Prabhupāda: That rectification means to stop this repeated birth and death. (break) . . . comes, again chance, again chance.

Gurukṛpā: Why does it take us so long to learn?

Prabhupāda: That is your intelligence. You have got a good intellect.

Gurukṛpā: But the intelligence is awarded from . . . intelligence, according to the individual, is awarded according to pious activities?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Intelligence is developed by association, by hearing, by experiencing. Otherwise very big intelligence, he's also dull. Don't you see the big, big leaders, Gandhi and Radhakrishnan, they have no intelligence? They are misinterpreting the whole . . . although they're passing as very big men, intelligent. And if you say to them that, "You are not intelligent; you are wrongly interpreting Bhagavad-gītā," they will be offended. So intelligence is so dull even to such big, big men, what to speak of ordinary men. Big, big demigods, their intelligence also lacking. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said kona, "Somebody very fortunate, he can understand." Kona bhāgyavān. And another place, brahmāra durlabha prema: "Even Brahmā cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). These things are there. So this intelligence is not so easy. Na janma-koṭibhiḥ sukṛtair labhyate. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). There are so many places that, "To come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy." It requires very, very great intelligence.

Satsvarūpa: When you say the creation is a mercy, the only mercy is the spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: Mercy means there is regular propaganda to give this intelligence.

Satsvarūpa: Not simply that you suffer.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: The fact that we suffer, that in itself does not make us . . .

Prabhupāda: No, suffering is already.

Satsvarūpa: That does not make us intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Even there is no creation, you have to suffer, because you are eternal. So some millions of years there is no creation and you'll have to lie down—no activity, just like sleeping. Suppose you are sleeping for one million year. Is that very enjoyment, sleeping for many millions of years? Again you'll get the light. That is chance. Again you are created, either as Brahmā or anything nonsense. But you'll see the light. Creation or no creation . . . "No creation" is still suffering. Creation is suffering, but no creation is still more suffering. Just like everyone is working very hard, but in Sweden there is no day; somebody committing suicide. It is great suffering. Otherwise how do they commit suicide? Is it not?

Hari-śauri: Yes. They have the highest suicide rate in the world.

Prabhupāda: One becomes mad. I was . . . I experienced this in Bombay, that due to Śyāmasundara's mistake I was detained for three days.

Gurukṛpā: In the yellow fever hospital.

Hari-śauri: Quarantine.

Prabhupāda: Quarantine. Simply by thinking that, "I shall not be allowed to go out of this room . . ." It is not a room—it is a big house but still, I was feeling uncomfortable, "How is that? I shall not be free to go out." And that three days was actually suffering to me, "I cannot go out of the door." Simply by feeling this. I do not do practically, I sit down. But if I feel, "No, I cannot go out of this room," that's a great suffering. Whole day, I am sitting here. That's a fact. But I have got this intelligence that "I can go out as I like." But if you say that, "You cannot go out," then it is a great suffering, psychologically. So creation or no creation, there is suffering. Rather, when there is creation it is less suffering, because he's mad, so he's engaged in some way. (laughs) He's thinking, "It is happiness." Eating, sleeping, sex is there. That is going on. That is māyā. Therefore this creation is another mercy of Kṛṣṇa. That I was reading this night. One creation, so many millions of years. There is calculation. One Brahmā's day, twelve hour, you cannot calculate. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). One yuga—forty-three hundred thousand years—one yuga, thousand times. Forty-three hundred thousand year equal to one yuga. Such thousand times. That is Brahmā's twelve hours. Then another twelve hours, night. That is also another trouble, when Brahmā's night. Everything merge into water, pralaya-payodhi-jale. Not all the planet. At least half the universe plunge into water. This earthly planet and up to Svargaloka, everything is inundated.

Gurukṛpā: And then it stays there until the next day.

Prabhupāda: Then next day means so many millions of years. That is practically half-annihilation. In this way, a short annihilation, short creation, it will go until Brahmā dies.

Hari-śauri: That description of Brahmā receiving knowledge through the heart, is that at the beginning of every day, or is that just at the beginning of the creation of the universe?

Prabhupāda: Beginning of the creation.

Hari-śauri: Oh. It's not every day, then.

Prabhupāda: Every day or . . . it may be. Just like we have got experience, day and night, night sleeping. So at night I forget everything. When I awake, wake up from sleep, then I remember my duty.

Hari-śauri: But if the top planets are still functioning . . .

Prabhupāda: No, this is the position of Brahmā also. Brahmā does not mean that he is liberated. Either Brahmā or ant, all of them are under material law. The law is that at night I forget everything. When I wake up in the morning I remember. So that is the position of Brahmā. Suptotthita-nyāya. This is called "Waking-up logic." Suptotthita-nyāya. Supta and utthita. Supta means sleeping, and utthita means to get up from sleep. So who is going to consider all this? They say it is mythology. They cannot properly answer, but they dismiss your proposal.

Satsvarūpa: They say these are the explanations that the ancient man gave before science came. Now science . . .

Prabhupāda: What, rascal, you are giving, explanation? Do you know what are the stars?

Satsvarūpa: As if science explains these things.

Prabhupāda: That . . . what is your science nonsense? You cannot explain actually what is the position. And you are simply speculating—"There is no life," "Somewhere there may be life. Let us take photograph. Let us go." What is your knowledge? We have got some knowledge from the śāstra that they're all full of living entities. And what knowledge you have got? We have got some śāstric evidence, Veda-śāstra. Is full of life, but you have no evidence. You simply speculate. So what is the value of your knowledge? Admitting that you are defective, I am defective, but I have got some authority. You have nothing. You are in the darkness.

Satsvarūpa: We have instruments, calculations.

Prabhupāda: That is also imperfect, because you have prepared. You are rascal; your instrument is rascal. How a rascal can manufacture something perfect? How it is possible? Hmm? Anything we attempt to get, knowledge, is imperfect. Only perfect knowledge is when you get it through the perfect person. The same example: you cannot make experiment or speculation who is your father. The only right information—from your mother. That's all. Finish. Otherwise, everything speculation. How you'll rightly understand your father? Hmm? Except the mother's statement, what is the next alternative? Hmm? Is there any?

Gurukṛpā: We're looking. You can ask everybody, every man on the street.

Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. It will never be perfect.

Satsvarūpa: They say that method is very good—sometimes. But it's not to be used all the time, authority.

Prabhupāda: All the time. If the authority is perfect, it is all the time.

Satsvarūpa: But if it's in complete contradiction to what we experience with the senses, then it's difficult.

Prabhupāda: No, how you . . .? Here is a fact, daily affair. So how you experience? What is your method of experience?

Satsvarūpa: To know the father?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: There's no way.

Prabhupāda: Then? Therefore, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma-parva 5.22). Things which are unperceivable by you, don't argue. Take the statement of the authority. So everything imperceptible . . . even this material world, you do not know what are these planets. Many hundred thousand millions are glittering. You do not know anything. Neither you can know it. Similarly, you cannot know, you have not done it, to manufacture life. How do you rascals say that, "It is like this. It is like this. It is chemical combination"? You cannot manufacture even egg, little chemical. But the chemical is coming from within the body of the chicken. It is being perfectly done, but you cannot do it. So what is your knowledge? Hmm? Why you are so much proud of this knowledge? It is so imperfect.

Gargamuni: It seems also that this creation is also made to allow the living entities to act as a false lord. With all these scientific and science, it seems that this creation is also meant for those who want to act as a false lord, especially the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is working, false lord, who is working. Therefore he is under the laws of karma. He does not know. He does not know what is the goal of life, what to do. Nobody knows. He has to take direction.

Gargamuni: People are taking the authority of the scientists more than the creator.

Prabhupāda: What is this scientist? The scientists are rascals. These are the proofs. They are trying to go to the moon planet, but they do not know what is this. So many stars are hanging on my head. What are they? They cannot give any perfect information. They do not know. Two things they do not know, what is the meaning of science—real two things. One thing, how life come into existence; and how this planetary system is existing. They do not know. What is value of their science? There are so many things they do not know.

Gurukṛpā: Everything.

Prabhupāda: Practically everything. (chuckles) But these two we challenge. We can challenge. They know. Therefore they want to bluff. They know that it is not possible for them to know. They know it perfectly well. It is not possible for their so-called science to understand what is the situation of this planetary system and what is the origin of life. They do not know. They admit. Two things unknown. Everything is unknown, but especially these two things. Simply speculate and bluff and . . . mūḍha. And we consider them as rascals, that's all. By taking information from Kṛṣṇa, we understand these are rascals. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15), bās.

Hari-śauri: Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that . . . we say: "They are rascals," and they say: "These are rascals, brainwashing." This is the position.

Hari-śauri: The demons and the demigods.

Prabhupāda: I say: "These rascal scientists are brainwashing," and they say: "These rascal Kṛṣṇas, they are brainwashing." (laughs) This is the position. But so far us, we have got some support and we have got authorities, and these rascals, they have no authority. They simply speculate. So even we are rascals, they are . . . among these two rascals, we are better rascal, (laughs) not they are better. That's all.

Gargamuni: Therefore they need their brain washed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are convinced that we have got authorities. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He cannot cheat me. He is perfect. So whatever knowledge He gives, that is our position, Kṛṣṇa conscious. "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that's all." And that's a fact. But they do not take Kṛṣṇa as authority, but another rascal, Dr. Frog, he's authority. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "Nobody is better authority than Me." And we see our gurus, they accept. So we are in safe side. Just like if a child takes information from his guru, mother, he's safe side. So we are in the safe side. They are not in the safe side. They are hovering, speculation. Speculation is no knowledge. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). And mental speculation means they will remain in ignorance because there is no knowledge. It is simply gymnastic of the mind. It is no knowledge.

Gurukṛpā: They usually argue that, "Well, you see, we have made so many big machines and done so many material wonders."

Prabhupāda: What is wonder? This is wonder for you, rascal. We see you are as good as dog. The dog with his four legs is running. He has no looseness. But your machine is now loose. Now you cannot go. This is your progress. A dog with four legs, he will immediately, immediately go, and now you have to wait. This is your progress, less than the dog. When there is dog race . . . we are going in the car, and dog is running after. We see sometimes. We see, "Oh, dog is running. You cannot have a car." Dog is free to run. You are not free to run, rascal. As soon as there is little looseness, dog will go hundred miles away from you. And you'll sit down here and cry. This is your progress. That race, you know? Tortoise?

Hari-śauri: The tortoise and the hare.

Prabhupāda: Tortoise and?

Satsvarūpa: Rabbit.

Prabhupāda: Rabbit. Yes.

Gurukṛpā: You know the story?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Your scientific knowledge, your car, means you are more dependent. Now, suppose you have to stay here. You had to . . . some very important business. Now whole thing is finished. But if you have calculated without having this car, then you would have done your duty. So the more material advancement means more you become dependent, more you become rascal. That is calculation by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Jaḍa-vidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava, jīvake karaye gādhā, tomāra bhajane bādhā. Anitya saṁsāre, moha janamiyā, jīvake karaye gādhā. My business is that how to leave this material conditional life and become free. Now, with this so-called advancement of science I am becoming more and more attached. So I'll never get freedom. This is the result. Because I am trying in different way how to get freedom. "Yes, wait millions of years. We shall do it. We shall do this." Gādhā, ass. You'll die trillions of times within millions of years, and he is expecting good result of his scientific . . . by the time, he'll become a banyan tree and stand there by nature's law, and he's expecting good result after millions of years. So gādhā, ass. Durāśaya. This has been described as durāśaya. He's expecting something, hoping something, will never be fulfilled. They calculate, "Millions of years we shall get how to make life." And the . . . an ordinary chicken, he is doing this within seven days. And these rascals will have to wait for millions of years and wait that a life is coming from the egg, and other rascals, set of rascals, they are accepting. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's statement is jīvake karaye gādhā: he's already an ass, he becomes a more ass, big ass. Anitya saṁsāre . . . more than. He's destined to change everything, anitya, everything nonpermanent, but he is illusioned—"Yes, we shall make it permanent." This is moha. Which he will never be able to do, he is expecting, "We shall do it." This is also called another logic, nyāya, bakāṇḍa-nyāya. You have seen bakāṇḍa-nyāya? Baka and aṇḍa. One bull is going, and his testicle hanging, and another duck, he is thinking, "It is a fish. It will drop, and I shall take it." This is practical. This is psych . . . you'll see a bull is going on and testicle hanging, and another duck is going after him. From this bak the word baka has come. Sometimes we say baka. This bakāṇḍa-nyāya.

Gurukṛpā: Baka, crazy.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Crazy, yes. He does not know that it is his testicle; it will never drop. But he is thinking, "As soon as it . . . this is a fish. It will drop, and big fish, (laughing) I shall eat it." Another nyāya is ajā-gala-stana (CC Adi 5.61). Those who have studied nyāya-śāstra . . . there are many such examples. Ajā-gala-stana. Sometimes a goat, they have got nipples.

Hari-śauri: Yes, on the neck.

Prabhupāda: And somebody is expecting some milk from that nipple. Nature's study. Therefore knowledge is in India. There is no doubt. If you want to become perfect, you have to take knowledge from India, this Vedic literature. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that take, assimilate the Vedic knowledge, and distribute it to the other parts of world. That is para-upakāra, real welfare activity. Because they are in darkness. What do they know, Western countries, about this knowledge? They think by this dog race . . . "A dog is running by four leg, and I am running by four-wheel car. I am advanced." That's all. That is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Moha, another illusion. Rascal, what you will do with this world, four-wheeling? You'll have to die like the dog. What you have done for this? You are very much proud, "The dog is running with four legs, and I have got a Rolls Royce car. I am so advanced." But, rascal, when the dog will die, you'll also die. In spite of four wheel, you'll die. What about that? What is your science says about that? Then he'll say: "Wait millions of years. We shall do that." This is science. When you put him in the corner—"Now, the dog, poor dog, will die, and you'll also die. What you have done for this?"—"No, wait. We shall do it." Is it not?

Gargamuni: "We are trying."

Prabhupāda: "We are trying." Is not that science?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. They're very happy about . . . they say . . .

Prabhupāda: Happy must be because he's a fool.

Satsvarūpa: They say man has only been in existence a little while comparatively. So he's just very young. He's got so much he's going to learn, and then, because he's young . . .

Prabhupāda: That means he is going to learn. He is not learned. That is another word of rascal.

Satsvarūpa: He's new on the scene, so don't expect too much, but he'll soon know everything.

Prabhupāda: What is new? History, whole history, is the same. Your forefathers, his forefathers never have done that? Why it is new?

Satsvarūpa: Well, they say there's been regular improvements, medicines . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that improvement?

Satsvarūpa: Medicines have done away with so many diseases.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Disease . . . does it mean there is no disease? You die by this disease or that disease. What is the improvement?

Gurukṛpā: They say that people used to live much longer . . . that they live longer now.

Prabhupāda: So what is the use of living longer. A tree is living longer, five thousand years. Does it mean that it is important life? A tree is standing for seven thousand years. There is a tree in San Francisco . . .

Gurukṛpā: Yes, I saw that.

Prabhupāda: You have.

Hari-śauri: Redwood forest.

Prabhupāda: And from the stoutness and strongness it will live another seven thousand years. Does it . . .? Is it living, worth living, to stand up very stout and strong in a place for fourteen thousands of years? Is that life? Hmm? I have spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness within ten years, and he is standing eight thousand years. So credit goes to him or to me? Better to live for ten years than to live for ten thousand years in that condition. And therefore they are ass, mūḍha. They do not know what is life. What improvement they have made?

Gurukṛpā: Their only improvement now is abortion and homosex. That is the most popular thing.

Prabhupāda: Tch, tch. Just see.

Gurukṛpā: They feel that if you are not . . . if you are inhibited in your sex life—if you only choose women—then you are not progressive. You must become liberated from these moral or, they call it, "hang-up" feeling. "This is not correct." Now they drive their children to the homosex dance, the parents, and let the boy out, and he goes into the homosex dance. Only men allowed. They take them there.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Gurukṛpā: Yes. In Los Angeles. They have only for boys, young men, age seventeen, sixteen, eighteen, nine . . . their parents take them, and they let them out of the car, and they pick them up later on in the night.

Prabhupāda: Advancement.

Gurukṛpā: Yes. Advancement of the pig.

Prabhupāda: It is horrible to hear even. Therefore para-upakāra. The rascals are less than the asses and dogs. Therefore to give them Kṛṣṇa is the best para-upakāra.

Gurukṛpā: Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were speaking about a man who becomes very educated but he can't get a job. He becomes like a dog. Well, I was reading in the paper that this one man in Sydney, he put an ad in the newspaper saying: "I will become your house dog, because I think a dog's life is better than my life because I cannot get a job. So now I want to have a job as a human dog. Anybody want to hire me?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) If these people are making against our movement, so we should not be surprised. The parents who are leaving their children, dropping their children—"Yes, go and have homosex dancing"—if such parents protest against our movement, it is not at all astonishing. But we should not stop for that reason. This is apparent. So these things should be brought in the court, that "This is the parent. The parent also requires this brainwash. Why the sons and daughters only? The father, mother . . ."

Gargamuni: In the court they also have no standard. They don't know what moral life is. They think this is normal.

Prabhupāda: At least you should take our books that, "This is our statement. Defense is. You first of all read this, then give your judgment."

Satsvarūpa: One of their biggest charges is that we don't . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. All charges are replied in these books. So "You read these books and argue on this. Finish this. Then give judgment." Make this. Make a firm. Bring all these eighty-four books. That is legal! From law point, it is legal. What I have to say, you have to hear. So we have said everything there.

Gargamuni: Instead of spending for these lawyers, let us bring your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: That is the testimony.

Prabhupāda: And read them and argue on them. "Finish this argument; then give the judgment." Why don't you do it? Make an experiment?

Gurukṛpā: We've done that.

Hari-śauri: They're going to do that.

Gurukṛpā: We did that Śrīla Prabhupāda, just recently. They had some . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Gurukṛpā: They must take a lawyer, but they don't let you in court.

Prabhupāda: No, lawyer can say. Lawyer will say. We pay them, "Say this."

Hari-śauri: I think the New York part of the testimony is going to be . . . they're going to read the Bhagavad-gītā from cover to cover, everything. That's included in our defense.

Prabhupāda: One book, and we have got eighty-four books. Come on. At least our books will be advertised.

Hari-śauri: Just like that demon on that radio show, after all his spouting out nonsense, at the end he said: "Well, I suppose we'll just have to read the books and find out." Their trick is to try to distract the attention from the books. Because they know the books are very perfect, so they try to say that that's not the issue, what's in the books. The issue is that we're not following what's in the books.

Prabhupāda: They say we are not following. So prove it.

Hari-śauri: We have to bring them back.

Satsvarūpa: Just like one man, on this point about the books, he came up and said: "Where does it say in Hinduism that you should harass people to sell them a book?"

Prabhupāda: It is not Hinduism. It is science.

Satsvarūpa: "Where does it say in your books . . .?" Then he would say: "Where does it say in your books, in your science, that you should harass people?"

Prabhupāda: Harass? What is the harassing?

Satsvarūpa: He claimed because . . .

Prabhupāda: You are harassing me. Then everything is harassing. Why you have brought me to the law court? It is harassing to me. Why you are harassing me?

Satsvarūpa: Because you are disturbing people, taking their money.

Prabhupāda: So you are also disturbing my books. The same, I can say. What is written in my books, I am doing. You are disturbing. You are harassing me.

Satsvarūpa: But where does it say in your books that you should . . . I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes, what it says in the . . . you read the books. You'll see that we are exactly.

Gargamuni: We're selling our book. We have every right to sell religious book.

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And they're being accepted by higher circle.

Gurukṛpā: Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: We're just saying the same thing. He says more than buy a book.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: He says: "Surrender everything."

Prabhupāda: Everything. Written in the book, and we're doing that. Take this stand. More and more agitation there will be, our books will be advertised. The people will be curious to know "What is in the book? Let us purchase."

Gargamuni: Yes. We should utilize this case as a means of advertising your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Because we are getting nationwide coverage.

Prabhupāda: "These are our statements, sir." That . . . you have piled this book. You have one photograph, like a mountain. You remember that picture?

Hari-śauri: Yes. On the back of the BTG there's a big stack of books.

Prabhupāda: According to . . . oh, the statement must be read, argued, then judgment. Point to point.

Hari-śauri: No, we can defeat them on every point.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Now the question, "Why he shall give up?" "Yes, you must give up." Then argument. Go on for three years. Then whole thing will come—what is God, what is creation, what is your position, why you should you surrender, and so on, so on, so on.

Hari-śauri: Everything. All the arguments you've been giving us, now this is a good opportunity to use them all.

Gurukṛpā: I had this lawyer . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the judgment was given Shylock, the Jew. When he was persistent that, "I shall take one pound flesh from the chest," no, he said: "No, I cannot touch it." Then the judgment was, "Yes, you can take, only one pound. If it is one hundredth part of an ounce, it is more, then you'll be hanged. Or even it is less, you'll be hanged. Exactly one pound you have."

Hari-śauri: And only flesh. No blood.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he was trapped. So we have to do like that. Sate sārtham samācaret. If the other party is tricky, you should be also tricky. Why you should be so plain? And this is quite legal that, "This is our statement, these eighty-four books. We have got others also, but some of them are here. So, my lord, you read this statement. Let us argue." Then it will be read. They have to. They cannot say: "No, I am not going to take any . . ." That is illegal. Whatever I say, he has to take. Then there is argument. First of all statement. The court procedure is, I have charged you with something. Court will ask you, "What you have got to say against these charges?" So you'll submit your statement. Then both the statements, the court's duty is to study and give the judgment. This is the law. So they have charged us with something. We give our statement. "Now you study and argue, and then give your judgment." Hmm? What do you think?

Satsvarūpa: We should introduce the books as much as possible.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: I'll write to New York and tell them to emphasize it even more.

Prabhupāda: Bring all these books in the court. Sometimes in Calcutta, high-court judge was a big lawyer. In those days he was earning not less than one thousand rupees per day, say sixty, seventy years ago. That one thousand means thirty times nowadays. Thirty thousand a day. He was very big lawyer. He was offered a judgeship in the . . . "No, no, no. I don't care for it." He was earning . . . the judges were getting at that time four thousand per month, and he was earning one thousand daily. So why should he give? So all the judges were friends. So in one case he brought so many books for argument. So the judges were friends, so he very mildly criticized, "Oh, Mr. Ghosh, you have brought the whole library?" "Yes, my lord, just to teach you law." (laughs) This was the . . . he addressed, "Yes, my lord, just to teach you law. No, no, you do not know what is law. I'll teach you today good lesson." He criticized him, "Mr. Ghosh, you have brought the whole library?" "Yes, my lord, just to teach you law." This is a famous argument. So they cannot deny that, "Why you have brought so many books to bother me?" "No. You have to hear. It may take twelve years to hear, but you have to hear. This is law."

Gargamuni: Yes, the court, before the case can decide, they must read all the books.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And argue line by line.

Hari-śauri: Yes. We can show them that they're actually the criminals.

Prabhupāda: Take this. Immediately write. Then it will be our preaching. In the court the books will be read, and we shall put our argument to support it. Let all the scientists, philosopher, come there. Make like that. (sound of kīrtana) So we have to go there now? No. Not yet.

Hari-śauri: In a few minutes.

Satsvarūpa: I'll write to New York and tell them the strategy.

Prabhupāda: Yes! Why not? You just consider, yourself. You are three GBCs. And give your opinion. This is my suggestion. The same suggestion as Dr. Rajveri Ghosh said: "Yes, my lord, I have brought the whole library to teach you law."

Gargamuni: And they can't take any decision against the books, because the scholars have already . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Scholars have supported. This is a fact.

Gargamuni: They have already supported.

Prabhupāda: That is also right.

Gargamuni: So they have to accept the books as the authority.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is authorized. Bhagavad-gītā is authorized. You can . . .

Hari-śauri: It's recognized everywhere.

Prabhupāda: It is authorized from the Hindu religious point of view, and it is accepted by the world scholars. So they cannot deny. It is authorized, no authorized, I can give any statement, and it is up to you to consider. But you have to consider, whatever statement. And actually that is done. You have accused me that I have stolen your watch. This is your charge against me. First of all I say: "Oh, this is false charge. I never did it." Now you have to prove that I did it. Naturally this is done. Whatever charges you . . . "I've never . . . I don't accept these charges." Otherwise where there is case? If you charge me with something and if I immediately accept, then where is the case? My statement will be "No, no, I never did so." Now you have to prove that, "Yes, I did." That takes time. It is not so easy. You have to give witnesses. You have to give so many things that, "Yes, I stole it." But my duty will be: as soon as you charge me, I will say: "No, I never did it." So whatever statement I give, you have to . . . the judge has to accept and then scrutinize who is correct. The complainant is correct or the defendant is correct? That is his business.

Hari-śauri: They'll never be able to prove that . . .

Prabhupāda: Similarly, we have to say: "We have never tried to brainwash. We have done exactly according to śāstra, authority. Here is the evidence. We have not manufactured anything. The evidence is here." They must read all the books. They cannot reject. The Hare Kṛṣṇas . . . that is their charge. They'll find in every page "Kṛṣṇa" at least ten times that, "This is Hare Kṛṣṇa." All the books, there must be Kṛṣṇa's name. "This is Hare Kṛṣṇa." I think you should take defense in that way.

Gurukṛpā: Should depend on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. The same argument: "Yes my lord, just to teach you law."

Satsvarūpa: Today is the day that Ādi-keśava Swami is supposed to meet with this Jimmy Carter, the twenty-seventh. We'll get some report.

Prabhupāda: Apart from that, you defend your position like this.

Hari-śauri: It's actually a religious issue, but they're trying to make it out something else to distract, because they can't defeat us on a religious point.

Prabhupāda: No. Our religion is not faith—our religion, it is on science. So we have got more defense. We don't accept such religion—"Two plus two equal to five." It is science—"Two plus two equal to four." It cannot be three, cannot be five. This is our religion.

Satsvarūpa: Since most of our presentation is done by lawyer, how can this practically be brought about that he introduces the books as our main defense? How can he present the books, a lawyer, if there's not a preacher?

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of preaching. The lawyer can present that, "My client's defense statement is here in these books." Defense statement. Don't say "the books." "Defense statements are there."

Hari-śauri: It's all written, already complete.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: "We've already compiled our defense . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: ". . . in eighty-four volumes."

Satsvarūpa: Certain sections, or just say all of these?

Prabhupāda: All, line to line.

Gargamuni: Yes. And they will have to read line to line.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Line to line, each word.

Gargamuni: Our defense is eighty-four volumes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: And they will say: "If we read it all, we'll become brainwashed too." They'll say: "You're trying to brainwash us also."

Prabhupāda: That is my duty. You are trying to brain . . . my brainwash, I am trying yours. That is going on. That is the tussle. You are trying your best. It is a wrestling. You are trying your strength, I am trying my strength. That is . . . otherwise where there is fight? There is no question of fight. You don't agree with me, I don't agree with you. You have got right to not agree with me; I have got right not to agree with you. Now let us settle.

Hari-śauri: One thing Rāmeśvara Mahārāja was saying was that they're bringing all these psychiatrists and psychologists in to make so many statements.

Prabhupāda: Let them bring. We have got our own psychiatrists.

Hari-śauri: So he was saying in order to defeat them, we have to bring in other psychiatrists and psychologists.

Prabhupāda: The psychiatrists mean . . . do you mean to say whatever they will say, we have to accept?

Satsvarūpa: Well, they're considered authorities.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Satsvarūpa: The foolish public considers them authorities of behavior and the mind.

Prabhupāda: Then everyone, a psychiatrist's recommendation. Even a sane man can be proved that he's a madman by the recommendation of psychiatrist.

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Gargamuni: Yes, but how can a psychologist judge a religion? That's not his field. They have to bring in scholars whose field is religion.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Then those who are supporting us, our books, they are also.

Satsvarūpa: Yes, we have many witnesses.

Prabhupāda: They are also madmen?

Hari-śauri: So many big professors.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Dr. Harvey Cox.

Prabhupāda: They have to be dismissed by the government from the post, "Why you are keeping so many madmen as big, big . . .?"

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Those who have supported us, then they're also madmen.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: They must be fired immediately.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have brainwashed. They are brainwashed. So they should be dismissed.

Gargamuni: Even Jimmy Carter, he gave one "Thank you for this book."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: One man in our favor said, "If they are brainwashed, then all the people of the East . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: ". . . millions of . . ."

Prabhupāda: Brainwashed.

Satsvarūpa: ". . . millions of people, they have to be considered brainwashed."

Gurukṛpā: You should drop the bomb.

Prabhupāda: Stop your Christian propaganda. Why you are doing that?

Hari-śauri: They should deprogram everybody.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So if you want to go for guru-pūjā, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupāda. (end)