760419 - Lecture BG 09.01 - Melbourne

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



760419BG-MELBOURNE - April 19, 1976 - 58.09 Minutes



Prabhupāda: (Chants jaya rādhā-mādhava) (prema-dvani)

(06:02) So you have advertised Bhagavad-gītā, so we can read from the Ninth Chapter or from the beginning, as you like. Which one will be nice?

Madhudviṣa: Ninth Chapter.

Prabhupāda: That's all right? Yes.

The Ninth Chapter is the most confidential knowledge. Śrī bhagavān uvāca, (devotees repeat) . . . All right, you repeat. Idaṁ (devotees repeat each word of verse after Prabhupāda, who then recites verse with devotees chanting responsively)

śrī bhagavān uvāca
idaṁ tu te guhyatamaṁ
pravakṣyāmy anasūyave
jñānam vijñāna-sahitaṁ
yaj jñātvā mokṣyase 'śubhāt
(BG 9.1)

Śrī bhagavān uvāca. Bhagavān, the Supreme Being, Bhagavān. In your English dictionary the word God is explained as "the Supreme Being." Supreme Being means who is great, greater, or the greatest, of all other beings. We are beings. We are individual persons. It is not very difficult to understand. Every one of us, individual. We think individually. We dress individually. We have got our egotism, individual. Everything. I don't agree with you; you don't agree with me. Voluntarily sometimes we agree. That means every one of us has individuality. This is called being. "I am."

Similarly, God is also being like us, but He is Supreme Being. That is the difference between God and me. I am also being, you are also being, but we are not Supreme Being. We are under some control. But God is not under control. He is the controller, but He is never controlled. (aside:) Make it louder. That is explained in the Vedic literature, the definition of God. The definition of God is given there, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. The Supreme Being is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). And He is . . . Vigraha means He has form. He is person, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. But His person, His form, is different from our form, our present form. Our present form, as we have got the material tabernacle, that is temporary. Your form, my form, this is changing. We are not existing in the same form. Just like we have got this form, human form of life. It is not permanently I shall be able to enjoy. Just like you have got a particular dress now. It is not permanent. You can change your dress any moment. Similarly, this body, material body, is considered . . . Actual fact: it will not endure. We'll have to change. Therefore it is not sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha.

But Kṛṣṇa's form is sac-cid-ānanda. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). Vigraha means form. So everyone has got form. There are 8,400,000 forms of living entity. In the water there are 900,000 forms. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Amongst the trees, plants, there are 2,000,000 forms. So there are hundred and thousands of forms in the material world. But in the spiritual world the form is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. Every form is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. That is the difference between material world and spiritual world. Material world means . . . Although the varieties are there in the spiritual world . . . There are also trees, as well as we have got here trees. But there the forms are spiritual form, and here they are material form. Material form and spiritual form, what is the difference? The difference is that just like a living being . . . I can ask any of my disciple to do something, he'll do it. But this microphone, it has also a form, but if I want microphone, "Please do this," he cannot, it cannot be, because it is material. It can mechanical, give some mechanical service, one only, but it cannot do any other thing. A man can speak or he can dance or he can become a thief, he can become so many—because he's living. That is the difference between material form and spiritual form. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā the material forms, they have been described as inferior, and spiritual forms . . . There is spiritual world also. That is called parā-prakṛti. There is another nature.

So we have no information. But information means we have in the Vedic literature. In other literatures also there are slight information, but in the Vedic literature you'll find described information of the spiritual world. So Bhagavad-gītā is the nutshell, cream of all spiritual knowledge. Here, therefore, Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, He is speaking. He is giving spiritual knowledge directly. Now, śrī-bhagavān uvāca. So there cannot be any argument. The word used here . . . Actually, this Bhagavad-gītā is described by Vyāsadeva. So Vyāsadeva recorded it, writing. Otherwise, it was being received through hearing. Before this Kali-yuga, Vyāsadeva, he kept all Vedic literature in writing. Before that, there was no book. The knowledge was received through the ear, aural reception, śruti. Therefore it is called śruti. Śruti means the knowledge which is received by hearing. And the memory was very sharp. In those days, five thousand years ago, any man . . . Not any man, but the intelligent class of men; they were called brāhmaṇas. They used to receive knowledge from guru by hearing. They could memorize everything, once heard. In the Kali-yuga the memory is being reduced. The duration of life is being reduced. Peoples' mercifulness is being reduced. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga. Bodily strength—reduced. Therefore Vyāsadeva preferred it that the Vedic knowledge should be kept recorded in writing.

So he first of all then wrote all this Vedic knowledge into writing, and the writings . . . There are the four original Vedas—Sāma, Yajur, Ṛk, Atharva—then the Upaniṣad, then the essence of Vedic knowledge, Vedānta-sūtra, then Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata . . . Mahābhārata is the greater history of this planet, Bhārata. In this way immense literatures are available. If we like, we can read them. We are presenting in English translation so many books. The purpose is people of the world may know the Vedic knowledge. So essence of Vedic knowledge is this Bhagavad-gītā. Not only that; it is being spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore it is said, śrī-bhagavān uvāca, so nobody could argue. Vedic knowledge means you cannot argue. You have to accept, authoritative. Just like the government literature, government regulation, when it is published, gazette, you cannot argue. Whatever the government has decided, you have to accept because government is the authority. Similarly, Vedic knowledge means you cannot argue. You can argue, but that argument is not to defeat. That argument is for understanding. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). If you cannot understand, then you have to put questions very humbly, praṇipātena, not by challenging. Praṇipāta. Praṇipāta means very humbly submitting oneself. Praṇipātena paripraśna. Otherwise there is no need of questioning. If you have no praṇipāta . . . Praṇipāta means prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa nipātena, fully submissive. The answers . . . You should approach to a person, questioning, with praṇipāta, means you cannot challenge him. Whatever answer he gives, you must be prepared to accept it. Otherwise don't put question. That is the system, Vedic system. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34).

First of all you cannot argue because it is settled fact, vinirṇītam. Just like some law is passed after much discussion in the legislative assembly, but when the law is passed, enacted, you cannot argue anymore. "Under such and such law you have to do this," section. Then you cannot argue. Similarly, Vedic knowledge, it is nirṇītam. It is already established. Simply you have to know it submissively. If you are lacking in that submissiveness, then don't put question. That will be simply waste of time. That is Vedic system. First of all you should approach a person whom you think that he is the right person; he can give the answer. Then you put question. If you have doubt that "This man may be or may not be able to answer my question," then don't put question, because you are not prepared to take his answer.

Therefore here it is said, bhagavān uvāca. You cannot put any question. That is the way. Because Bhagavān means . . . Every word has got meaning. Bhaga means opulence. So one of the opulence is nobody is wiser than Him. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Bhagavān means one who possesses six kinds of opulences, richness, aiśvaryasya samagrasya, total richness. You are rich, I am rich, he is rich, but nobody can claim that "I am the only rich," or "Nobody is richer than me." That is not possible. But if you find somebody who is the richest—nobody is richer than Him—then He is God. Then He's God. God is not so cheap thing that in every street, every village, there is incarnation of God. Don't accept that. You must know what is meaning of God. At least we followers of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we do not accept such cheap God.

The God's description is there in the śāstra. Just like one of the description is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā,

yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya
jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ
viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(BS 5.48)

So it is described here that yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya, that you . . . Just like we are breathing, exhaling and inhaling, so God is also being. We have already explained. So we are also being. We are breathing. He is also breathing. But our breathing is for a moment, but His duration of breathing is described in the śāstra that when He is exhaling, innumerable universes are coming out, and when He's inhaling, innumerable universes are going into Him. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya (BS 5.48). This breathing period, taking advantage of the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu, millions of universes, jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . . . Not only universes, the chief person of the universe, Brahmā, they are coming and going, coming and going. And the Brahmā's duration of life, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇaḥ (BG 8.17). We cannot calculate even the twelve hours day period by our mathematical calculation.

So that is meaning of God. And this God, Mahā-Viṣṇu, is partial representation of Govinda. Viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajā . . . So sometimes cheap gods come in the Western country. They cheat you. But God is not so cheap. This is one of the description of God, that within the breathing period of God, Mahā-Viṣṇu, who is not directly God—He is expansion of God, Mahā-Viṣṇu—the total material energy is being created and annihilated. That is God. So that aiśvaryasya samagra, this is one opulence. If we possess one house, we become very opulent. If another possesses two house or three house . . . Now here, in the breathing period of God, there are innumerable universes. You cannot calculate what is the opulence. One universe you cannot calculate. The one universe you are daily experiencing. What is the position of the sun, what is the position of the moon, what is the position of other planets you cannot calculate. And there are innumerable universes. And that is depending on the breathing period of God. So we say, "God is great." We should try to understand how great He is, not that the Dr. Frog's greatness. No. That is not greatness, no—my calculation, "God may be like this. God may be like that." You have to understand about God from the authorized person who knows things as they are. Then you can also know.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says here in the Ninth Chapter, śrī-bhagavān uvāca, idaṁ tu te guhyatamaṁ pravakṣyāmy anasūyave: "My dear Arjuna, I shall speak to you . . ." He is giving him so many instruction, because Arjuna has submitted to Kṛṣṇa. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7): "I am now perplexed. I am therefore submitting myself unto You." Kṛṣṇa was his friend. There was no submission. A friend does not submit to another friend. Then there is no meaning of friendship. But here Kṛṣṇa voluntarily, er, Arjuna voluntarily said that "I am submitting. Don't treat me as Your friend. Now You treat me as Your disciple. I am submitting." So therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "My dear Arjuna, now I shall speak to you the most confidential part of knowledge." Idaṁ tu te guhyatamam. Guhya means confidential. And there is comparative, superlative degree. That is guhya, guhyatara and guhyatama. So Kṛṣṇa said, "I'll speak to you the most confidential part of knowledge." Pravakṣyāmi. Pravakṣyāmi means "I shall explain to you." Vakṣyāmi means "I will speak," and pra means prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa, "Very explicitly I shall speak to you."

Another word is used here, anasūyave. Asūya means envious, envy. "I am speaking to you because you are not envious." This is the qualification. If you are envious of God—"Why? Who is God? I am God. Why shall I hear from God? I know better than Him . . ." These are enviousness. But Arjuna is not envious. We are envious. This material world is enviousness. I am envious of you; you are envious of me. I cannot see you very opulent; you cannot see me very opulent. That is the reason there is rivalry, competition, in this world, man to man, friend to friend, even father and son. The competition is there because we are envious. Suppose I am your neighbor and I become rich. So although there is no enmity, still my neighbors will be envious: "Oh, this man has become so rich? I could not become." This is the nature. So if we try to understand Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Being, the our first qualification should be: we should not be envious.

Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the beginning it is said that dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ atra paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). Nirmatsara. Matsaratā means to become envious. So that is one of the qualification to understand God: not to become envious. But our enviousness is beginning from God. As soon as we present Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, so many persons will protest, "Why Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead?" Why not? (laughter) First of all answer why not. If you think Kṛṣṇa is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you present who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Either you do not know or you cannot present. If you do not know who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then take it from me: Kṛṣṇa. And if you know, then you present more than, more efficient, more expert, more powerful, more rich than Kṛṣṇa. This is practically a challenge. So actually it has been challenged, and it has been scrutinizingly examined, and the verdict is, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ, anādir ādir govindaḥ . . . (BS 5.1)

Devotees: . . . sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam.

Prabhupāda: This has been decided. Nṛpa-nirṇītam. It is already considered and decided. So any point . . . Suppose Bhagavān means the supreme rich. Supreme Being means everything supreme. In richness He is supreme. In bodily strength He is supreme. His knowledge is supreme. In beauty He is supreme. In renunciation He is supreme. That is the description, definition of God, that He must be supreme in every respect. Therefore He is called Supreme Being in the dictionary. Nobody can be rival to Him. Asamordhva. Asama means equal. Nobody is equal to Him. If I become equal to Him, how He can become Supreme? If there is rivalry between the Supreme, then there is not meaning of Supreme. Supreme means there is no rivalry. He is the Supreme, means nobody is greater than Him; nobody is equal to Him; everyone is under Him. That is called Supreme. Asamordhva. Nobody can be sama. Sama means equal. If I am God, and another competitor God, you are also God, then neither you are God nor I am God. There cannot be any competition. That is called Supreme. So Arjuna is to that position. He does not challenge Kṛṣṇa, that "There is another Supreme Being than Yourself." There cannot be. But sometimes we foolishly challenge. That is our foolishness. But God is always Supreme. So therefore this is the qualification of understanding confidential knowledge about God. Anasūyave. Pravakṣyāmy anasūyave.

Jñānam. Jñānam means knowledge. And vijñānam means particular knowledge. Just like in scientific word there are knowledge and scientific knowledge, or theoretical knowledge and experimental knowledge—two kinds of knowledge. Science . . . In the field of scientific knowledge there are things, just like observation and experiment. Things are going on. The scientists are observing that "These things is being done." Now there are so many observation, atomic observation; proton, neutron, they are observing. And now, when that observation is complete, when they are put into experimental knowledge, that is called vijñānam. So Kṛṣṇa says that "I shall explain to you jñānam, theoretical knowledge, with practical experiment." Not that you have to accept this knowledge blindly. Practical experiment. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ pravakṣyāmy anasū . . . Jñānaṁ vijñāna-sahitam.

Just like the controversy is . . . The modern scientists, they say that "Life is generated from matter." We are protesting. We are protesting because . . . We are not scientists, of course, but we are scientists so far our knowledge is concerned. Because here it is said . . . Kṛṣṇa says, jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānam (BG 7.2), so Kṛṣṇa is the authority. He is the opulent, most opulent, the wisest. So if we receive from Him knowledge, then that is perfect. I may not be perfect, but the knowledge I receive from Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. That is perfect. Therefore we should receive from Kṛṣṇa knowledge. That is perfect knowledge. A small child, he does not know what is this watch, and the father explains to him, "My dear child, this is called watch. It is moving by this machine," and as far as the child can understand, it is explained. So when the child says, "This is watch, and it is working like this. I have heard it from my father," that is perfect knowledge. That is perfect. He may be imperfect, but his knowledge is perfect because he has received the knowledge from the perfect person. This is a crude example. Similarly, any knowledge you receive from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is perfect.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that,

idaṁ tu te guhyatamaṁ
pravakṣyāmy anasūyave
jñānaṁ vijñāna-sahitaṁ
yaj jñātvā . . .
(BG 9.1)

And if you learn this knowledge, if you actually assimilate this knowledge—yaj jñātvā mokṣyase aśubhāt—then you become liberated from this inauspicious life, aśubham. Śubha mean auspicious, and aśubha means inauspicious. So our this material existence is inauspicious because we are full of ignorance, full of miserable condition, and this body is not permanent. Our existence, body, should have been like Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is the original father, the son's body is as good as the father's body. But when we learn from the śāstra that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1), His form is eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, and when we compare our this body, material body, it is neither eternal, neither full of knowledge, neither full of bliss. This is aśubha. The aśubha means it is not śubha. If his body would have been auspicious, then this body would continue to exist, because we are eternal.

These things have been described very vividly in the Second Chapter: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Because we are dull brain . . . There is no education actually. The modern education means simply a craftsmanship. If you can prepare a nice motorcar, oh, that is advancement of the . . . And what is this? This is craftsmanship. It is the blacksmith's work. It is not knowledge. Knowledge is different. Therefore it is called jñānaṁ vijñāna-sahitam. This is knowledge: "What I am? I am this body or something else? Why I am suffering? If there is any remedy? I do not wish to die, neither I am subjected to death." Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate han . . . This is knowledge, that "If I am eternal, if I do not die after annihilation of this body, then why I am subjected to this body?" This is knowledge. And to manufacture a motorcar, that is not knowledge. That is craftsmanship. Knowledge is here, that "I am eternal. Why I am put into this condition of temporary body? Not only one kind of body, but there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and I have to accept one of them, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), according to my karma. This is my position. How to get out of it, to inquire about it? If there is any science to accept it?" That is knowledge.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, jñānaṁ sa-vijñānam, vijñāna-sahitaṁ yaj jñātvā: "If you are fortunate enough to understand this knowledge, then mokṣyase. You become liberated from this inauspicious condition of repeated birth, death, ignorance and suffering, so many things." So we shall try to explain one after another. This is the beginning.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (break)

Guest (1) (young man): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was inquiring about how the mind(?), or spiritual self, of an animal, or beast, how that enters into a human being.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How does the spirit soul of a beast enter into the form of a human being?

Prabhupāda: Just like a thief in the prison house. How he becomes liberated? When his term of suffering in the prison house is finished, then he is again free man. And again if he is criminal, he is put into jail. So human form of life is meant for understanding, as I am explaining, what is the problem of my life. I do not wish to die; I am put to death. I do not wish to become old man; I am obliged to become old man. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). So he . . . Just like the same example: a thief. When he is free, if he thinks, ponders, that "Why I was put into this miserable condition of six month prison life? It was so botheration," then he becomes actually human being. So similarly, the human being has got advanced power of deliberation. If he thinks that "Why I am put into this miserable condition?" Everyone has to admit that he is in miserable condition. He is trying to become happy, but there is no happiness. So how that happiness can be achieved? That chance is in the human being. But if we receive, by the mercy of the material nature, a human being and we do not utilize it properly, if we misuse this benediction as cats and dogs or other animals, then you have to accept again the animal form, and when the term is finished . . . It takes long, long duration of time, because there is evolutionary process. So again you'll come to this human form of life, when the term is finished. Exactly the same example: A thief, when he has finished his term of imprisonment, he's again a free man. But again he commits criminality; again he goes to the jail. So there is cycle of birth and death. If we utilize our human form of life properly, then we stop the cycle of birth and death. And if we do not use this human form of life properly, again we go to that cycle of birth and death.

Guest (1): Yes, I wanted to know what processes happen to the spiritual soul between a beast and human life.

Prabhupāda: That will depend on his work. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapatti (SB 3.31.1). According to the association of the material nature, you get the next body. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). We have got different types of bodies. That is due to our association, past association with the different modes of material nature. Therefore, in this life, if we associate with the modes of goodness, then there is possibility of being promoted to the higher planetary system, or if we become God conscious, then we go back to home, back to Godhead. This chance is there. Now it is up to us to utilize it properly.

Lady guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, most of us or some of us on this earth are lucky enough to have . . .

Prabhupāda: That is already explained. According to past karma, you get different position. Sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Sad-asat, abominable life and pleasing life, that is due to our past association with different modes of material nature.

Lady guest (2): Some of us are lucky enough to have realized . . .

Prabhupāda: That is lucky or unlucky. That means according to our past association.

Lady guest (2): There is such injustice . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like if you . . . In this life also, if you are properly educated, then you get good position in the society, same as a lucky, or a lucky position. But the lucky position was due to your personal association of being educated. It depends on you to get this lucky or unlucky position.

Lady guest (2): There are so many children in the world that are suffering.

Prabhupāda: The same law is working. Law is one. Just like you infect some disease; you must suffer from the disease. There is no excuse. Because you are children, you are child, nature will not excuse. If the child touches fire, the fire will not excuse. It will burn. Similarly, as soon as you put yourself under the control of the material nature, then, according to your association, you have to accept the result. There is no question of child or elderly person.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Other questions?

Guest (3) (young man): I, I . . . I'm talking about, from a Christian point of view . . .

Prabhupāda: No, don't put any question from any particular . . . You try to understand the philosophy. If "Two plus two equal to four," that doesn't matter whether he's a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. Two plus two equal to four everywhere.

Guest (3): All right. Well, the point is that you say, or members of the Society say, that "I am not this body," and in Christianity this is my body and this is my blood, and . . .

Prabhupāda: "This is my blood." You are not blood. That is all right.

Guest (3): Right.

Prabhupāda: "This is my blood," you can say, just like I say, "This is my body." But you are not this body. If I say this, "My microphone," does it mean that I am microphone? Why do you put this question?

Guest (3): Well, that's all right. That's all very well.

Prabhupāda: So that is to be understood. You can say "my blood," but you don't say "I blood." That is foolishness.

Guest (3): Yeah, I didn't say "I blood."

Prabhupāda: Then you say "my blood." Therefore the blood is different from you. As soon as say "my blood," then "my house," then house is different from you.

Guest (3): The point is that it makes it one. It makes body and soul one when one says, "This is my body and this is my blood."

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (3): And in this Society I've heard people saying that "This is not my body," so, okay . . .

Prabhupāda: It requires little intelligence. Just like you are breathing. So when the breathing is stopped, you say, "The man is dead." But what is this breathing? This breathing is nothing but a little portion of air passing. So you can artificially make that arrangement, air passing, but does it mean that it will bring life? So therefore breathing is not life. Life is different from breathing. You have to study scientifically. Because breathing can be produced. This respiration of . . . Even in the, what is called, bellow, there is breathing, "Hans-phans, hans-phans . . ." (laughter) Does it mean life? No. Therefore you have to study every part of your body. You'll find there is no life.

Guest (3): Well . . .

Prabhupāda: So therefore life is different from this combination of matter. This is intelligence.

Guest (3): Then . . . I do understand it.

Prabhupāda: First of all you understand this: that you are different from your body. Analyze your body part by part. Then you come to understand. Don't jump over. Your question was, "The body's not different from the life." That was his question.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So it is different. You analyze this body. You'll find in every part of body, take this and you study it. You'll find no living force there. So how the living force is equal or identical with the body?

Guest (3): All right, I agree. I . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you agree. Then you accept that the soul is different from the body.

Guest (3): Yeah, I understand. So you call that Kṛṣṇa. But God is God. God's name is God, not Kṛṣṇa. You may call Him Kṛṣṇa if you want.

Prabhupāda: So who is God?

Guest (3): God is God.

Prabhupāda: Who is that? You do not know. You do not know.

Guest (3): God is God.

Prabhupāda: "God is God," you say. Man is man. But who is that man you do not know.

Guest (4): I think what he's getting at is that there's a basic division of three forces—spirit, soul and body; and the spirit is . . .

Prabhupāda: Different from the body.

Guest (4): . . . what is the part that's not you.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think he also has a misunderstanding. Prabhupāda is not saying that each individual soul is God.

Guest (4): Yeah, that's why I wanted to say that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He had a misunderstanding himself.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (5) (Indian woman): If God is a word, it is part of the language. So you call it God; I call it Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference at all.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What she . . .? (laughter) First of all try to understand. This is the beginning of knowledge, that "I am not this body."

Guest (3): All right, I can understand.

Prabhupāda: Then other things will follow.

Guest (3): All right. Furthermore, I have another question. All right? This is actually a statement which comes from the Bible, which is one . . . If you'll pardon me, I'm going to refer to it. The Supreme Lord . . . It is said, "I am the Lord, thy God." And I am not meaning who I am, we are, standing here(?). That is the statement of the Supreme Lord. "And thou shalt have no strange gods before Me. You must not make idols or images to bow to or worship in any other way. You may worship no other god than Me." Well, then how is it that . . .?

Prabhupāda: But that is not any other way. You have to worship God; I have to worship God. Then where is any other way? Worshiping God is there, either you or in me. So where is other? There is no difference. The worship of God is there. I worship God; you worship God. You follow Bible; I follow Bhagavad-gītā. But the worship of God is there. Where is the difference? Why do you make difference?

Guest (3): Well, churches . . .

Prabhupāda: I eat; you eat. Eating is there. So in your country you eat in different way; I eat in different way. But eating must be there. Similarly, worship of God must be there. Either you worship through Bible or Bhagavad-gītā, but worship of God must there. That is wanted.

Guest (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then that done, finish. Then there is no question of deter . . . Just like here we are hundreds of men. We are differently dressed, but that does not mean that we are not human being.

Guest (3): No, I see no cause to . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So then there is no question. When there is, worship of God is there, either in the Bible or in Bhagavad-gītā, then there is no controversy.

Guest (3): So if there's a new religion in the world—which may come, you know—so if that happens, then the . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not new religion. Why you take it new? We say worship of God. That is not new. That is very, very old.

Guest (3): All right, but why I say is because it is new to a lot of people who have been brought up . . .

Prabhupāda: That is up to you. You may accept or not accept. There are different kinds of dresses in the shop. Why you have accepted this kind of dress? But you must be dressed. That is wanted. You may make your choice in a different way than myself, but you must be dressed as a gentleman. Similarly, worship of God must be there. Either you do it in Christian way or Hindu way, that doesn't matter.

Guest (3): All right. Well, then does that mean that you assume or propose that the world would all become one in one religion?

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is one, and if you worship God, then it is one.

Guest (3): All right, but then men differ in different . . .

Prabhupāda: Differ? That I have already explained, that there are so many dresses. You have got particular dress. You like it. But that does not mean that you are not dressed.

Guest (3): I don't say . . . No, I wouldn't argue about . . . But the point I'm trying to make is that you call God Kṛṣṇa. Christians call God by whatever name they call God. (laughter) The point is . . .

Prabhupāda: Christian? Christian have . . . I don't think that they have any particular name of God.

Guest (3): All right, then Christ . . .

Prabhupāda: So if you, if you get . . . Suppose you have heard the name of the . . . There is a president, but if you hear from somebody, "The president name is this," so what is the harm? You become advanced in knowledge. Suppose you go to a country. You know that that government has got a president. But if somebody says, "The president's name is this," then where is the wrong there?

Guest (3): Nothing wrong.

Prabhupāda: Then? You do not know the name of God, but if I give you the name of God, what is the wrong there?

Guest (3): Well, the point is, as I said before, that there is one God, and that I suggest . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, one God is there, but you do not know what is His name. That is the difficulty.

Guest (3): I un . . . I know, all right.

Prabhupāda: That you say. What is that name? You say me.

Guest (3): The point is that I would like to suggest . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no suggestion. God names cannot be suggested. Then He is not God. God's name cannot be suggested. Then He's not God. You cannot suggest God's name.

Guest (3): Well, then you make God into a person called Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: God is person. I have already said. It is described in the dictionary, "the Supreme Being." You are being, I am being, but He is the Supreme Being. You are not Supreme; I am not Supreme.

Guest (3): One Supreme Being. Just one.

Prabhupāda: Yes, one. Supreme means one. Otherwise there is no meaning of Supreme.

Guest (6) (young man): Is that Jack in the . . . (indistinct) . . .? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: If there is equal, then that is not . . . That's all right. Now chant.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end).