760711 - Conversation - New York

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

760711ED-NEW YORK - July 11, 1976 - 99:12 Minutes

(Evening Darsana)

Prabhupāda: "I take away as death." Whatever they are accumulating, everything will be taken away at the time of death . . . (indistinct) . . . they are simply collecting, accumulating, discovering—forgetting that everything will be taken away at the time of death. Discover something which can check death, there will be no more death. That is real discovery. What do you think?

Indian man (1): Well, it's a question to think about.

Prabhupāda: Because whatever we are discovering, it will be taken away by death. So discover something which will stop death. And that is real discovery.

Indian man (1): But don't you think it will be a bad thing, because there are some bad people in the world like, let's say, Hitler and Stalin and others, they may be the first people to use the technology to prolong their life?

Prabhupāda: The thing is, bad or good, everyone will be taken away by death. Is it not a fact? Hitler is no longer existing, neither Stalin nor Gandhi. Gandhi was supposed to be very good man. He's also taken by death, and Hitler is also taken by death. And Stalin also taken. And I'll also, you will be also. So death will take away everyone. There is no doubt about it. Therefore discover something which will stop death. That is real discovery.

Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Which is the most important chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Every word is important.

Guest (1): Every word.

Devotee: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Every word. Beginning from dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1), every word.

Guest (1): Every one.

Bali-mardana: Every word.

Guest (1): Every word.

Prabhupāda: And that will give you guidance. Read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, word for word. But don't misinterpret and spoil. The rascals misinterpret and spoil the whole Bhagavad-gītā. That is the difficulty. You cannot misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā. Then it will be spoiled. If you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you are benefited. And if you misinterpret, then you spoil. So generally they misinterpret. Everyone speaks on Bhagavad-gītā, but he misinterprets.

Guest (1): You've made it very clear, Prabhupāda. I want to thank you for that. I like your purports as much as Kṛṣṇa's actual words, because now I can understand it.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Otherwise, for the last so many years—I am speaking in Western countries—so many svāmīs, so many yogīs come, they speak on Bhagavad-gītā but misinterpret. So not a single devotee was there. And now Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, and so many devotees are coming.

Guest (1): Now we can understand it.

Prabhupāda: You could understand long ago, but difficulty is we accept this misinterpretation, spoiled understanding of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like this gentleman was speaking he did not like Kṛṣṇa, he told me. He told me just now.

Bali-mardana: He did not like Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They'll read Bhagavad-gītā, and they'll not like Kṛṣṇa. This is their reading of Bhagavad-gītā.

Indian man (2): They don't want to read it yet.

Prabhupāda: Aiyee, idhar aiyee. (Come, come here.) Now all Indians, they should take Bhagavad-gītā as it is and make their life fruitful. The Europeans and Americans, they are taking. Why Indians are not taking?

Indian lady: Is it because the Indians think that they know much about Bhagavad-gītā? Being born a Hindu, they might think they know the religion, but not very much. They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious at all.

Prabhupāda: Just see. He knows everything, he does not know Kṛṣṇa? How he knows everything if he does not know Kṛṣṇa? If you think that you know everything, then you must know Kṛṣṇa. But if you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then what do you know? Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything. And if you know everything and you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are rascal, that's all. Mūḍha. That is the test. If you know everything but do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal. And if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything automatically.

Indian lady: I think they think they know it, but I'm sure they are not aware of it.

Prabhupāda: If they know Kṛṣṇa, why they do not come to the Kṛṣṇa's temple?

Indian man (2): Quite a number of them come here. I remember the days when I used to be the only Indian in the temple, seven, eight years ago.

Prabhupāda: Even though they are not coming, they should now come, and we can open many other temples if you come. We can maintain many other temples. You come and take advantage of it. Why you are losing your own culture? That is foolishness. You are Indians, and you do not know Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very good credit.

Indian man (2): Remember when we were building our altar? Remember last year when I talked to you? We were building altar, and virtually I went to every Indian, and myself and the president of that temple, we begged everything we can do possible. And we wanted to collect almost ten thousand dollars. We couldn't even collect five thousand dollars, and most of them were making between fifteen and twenty thousand dollars. Some of them in fact gave us pennies.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Indian man (2): And they took us one Bhagavad-gītā. We gave them Bhagavad-gītā and they gave us some pennies.

Bali-mardana: Not a very good trade. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: This is not good report.

Bali-mardana: Praghoṣa, he gets at least ten dollars in lakṣmī.

Indian man (2): It's difficult to collect money from the Indians. That is my experience, and I . . .

Bali-mardana: Because they are thinking of rupees, not dollars. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That means they do not like Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (2): I don't know. Somehow or other, I myself am totally confused about Indian community in this country. I have no comments to make, but I found out that they are the least charitable community among all communities. I lived in Canada almost ten years, and I found out other communities are very charitable. Even if you go to other community, at least they will give something, but Indians, no.

Prabhupāda: Aiye na. Please come. Every Indian should come to the temple and become a devotee.

Indian man (1): I think more and more people are really coming to the temple and becoming part of it, as I think most of the devotees around here know, in the last few years. Everybody I know of . . .

Prabhupāda: "More and more coming" means not all are coming. (laughter)

Indian man (1): All of them would be the most desirable thing.

Prabhupāda: What is the objection?

Indian man (1): There are so many other temples. Hindu temple, Sindhu temple . . . there's organization of community of Indians, they are trying to develop their own.

Prabhupāda: There is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity?

Indian lady: Yes.

Indian man (1): There is Gītā temple, there's a Sindhi temple.

Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa? Gītā without Kṛṣṇa?

Indian man (1): It is a temple, everybody facing their back towards Kṛṣṇa and chanting about what was happening in the town.

Bali-mardana: They have Kṛṣṇa mūrti, but when he went there everyone had their back to the mūrti.

Indian man (1): And they were chanting . . . not chanting, talking about what was going on in the town.

Bali-mardana: Social. For social reasons.

Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): But here you can only talk about Kṛṣṇa, so they don't want to come.

Indian man (2): If you want to talk to them about Kṛṣṇa you'll lose a friend. Right away. So either make friends with Kṛṣṇa, or make friends with that guy.

Prabhupāda: That is not very good. That means they have fallen from their culture. They have lost their culture.

Indian man (1): Some of them in fact enjoy eating hot dogs and hamburgers. They said: "Oh, I have been eating vegetables for ages. Now I have come here to eat hot dogs and hamburgers." That is their comment. They have done totally . . .

Prabhupāda: What is this hot dog?

Hari-śauri: It's meat, sausage.

Guest: Together with other poisons.

Rādhā-vallabha: Made from cows. (break)

Prabhupāda: (referring to guests leaving) Some prasādam? Oh, they have taken prasādam.

Indian man (2): Want something to eat?

Hari-śauri: Feast prasādam.

Bali-mardana: Someone is making them some little prasāda?

Hari-śauri: There is some prasādam to distribute.

Prabhupāda: Khoob khaiye aur aap log ko to chahiye Kṛṣṇa prasadam sikhana, ye bechare to jante hi nahin, Krishna ko chod diya to kaun sikhayega. Kyon aplog Kṛṣṇa ko chod diya. (Have lots of prasadam and you must learn how to prepare Kṛṣṇa prasadam, these people don't know — they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa so who will teach them. Why did you people leave Kṛṣṇa?) And they talk of Bhagavad-gītā and keeping Kṛṣṇa background? Somebody says?

Bali-mardana: Yes. Mostly they don't even talk of Bhagavad-gītā, they talk about social, but Kṛṣṇa they keep to your back. They have named the place Gītā Mandira, Gītā Temple. But they do not discuss Gītā. Just for show.

Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Even Mahatma Gandhi, he was talking of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, but throughout his whole life he never established a temple of Kṛṣṇa, although his photograph you'll find with Bhagavad-gītā. This is the calamity.

Indian man (1): In the last days Mahatma Gandhi kept saying rāma rāma, rāma-nāma is the only way chanting . . . one of his article he says: "There is no other cure but to chant the name of the Lord."

Prabhupāda: Mahatma Gandhi would have preached Bhagavad-gītā, the world would have taken very seriously, because he was respectable.

Bali-mardana: You wrote him to preach Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jo kuch ho gaya ho gaya ab to aap sab pardesh me hain khoob Bhagavat-Gita ka prachar kijiye aur samajhiye sab kuch hai. (Whatever has happened is past now. You all are in a foreign land. Do extensive preaching and publicity of Bhagavad-gītā and understand everything is there.) The four things Kṛṣṇa wants, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). He charges four thing: to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yājī . . . find out this verse. Here is Bhagavad-gītā. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru.

Hari-śauri:

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam

ātmānaṁ mat-parāyaṇaḥ

(BG 9.34)

"Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."

Prabhupāda: Charges four things, He wants: to always think of Him, become His devotee, worship Him, mad-yājī, and offer obeisances unto Him. Therefore this temple is there. These four things can be done even by the child. So why don't you do it? And the guarantee is that if anyone does like that, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Every one of you should come to the temple, always think of the Deity, and if possible chant His holy name and offer Him some worship and obeisances. That will make you perfect. New York is such a big city, there are so many Indians, they should come. Where is the difficulty, to become a thinker of Kṛṣṇa, always thinking, man-manā? The Deity is there. As soon as you come, you get some impression of the Deity. So if you think of the Deity, where is the difficulty? Koi difficulty hai. (Is there any difficulty?) Can anyone say that there is difficulty in thinking of Kṛṣṇa? And as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee—immediately. And as soon as you become a devotee, you'll offer something for worship. And at the end of worship, you offer your obeisances. There is no need of education or Vedānta knowledge. Vedānta knowledge means this: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. Anyone can do. And practically see, these foreigners, ten years, five years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and because they are following this man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, they are now advanced devotees. So why Indians are lacking? Hmm? What is the objection?

Guest (1): Simply our hearts are caked with dust.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we shall keep it dusty. If our heart is full of dust, cleanse it. That is intelligence. What is this, "My heart is dirty. Let it be kept as dirty"? No, if it is dirty, cleanse it. It is the duty of every Indian to understand Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to others. That is real Indian business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every one of you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to others who are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. That is the injunction; that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Anyone who has taken birth in India as a human being"—not as dogs; manuṣya, manuṣya means human—"his duty is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach to the other people for welfare activities." Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra. We should mark this point, manuṣya-janma. He's not requesting the cats and dogs. So in other words, that those who are not taking, Indians . . . Bhagavad-gītā is known to everyone; every Indian knows. But if he does not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is not to be counted as human being. Because He says, manuṣya-janma haila yāra. If we claim to be human being, born in India, it is our duty to understand the value of life from Bhagavad-gītā and preach this cult to others to do real welfare activities. This is the duty of every Indian. Why Indians are lacking in their duty? They do not understand Kṛṣṇa and they do not understand how to do good to others. Now whatever is done is done. It is time, now that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is here, the temple is here, you come, you understand the whole philosophy and distribute. That is your duty. In New York City we can open many temples, provided you come.

Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does it feel to be back in New York again?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest (1): How does it feel to be back in New York?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I feel very much pleased, because I came here alone, without any shelter. I was loitering on the street.

Guest (1): Ten years ago, wasn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, 1965. Then in 1966 I established this institution in a storefront on the Second Avenue. That is the beginning. I never thought we shall be able to possess such a big building.

Guest (1): You've done so much in that short time.

Prabhupāda: I have not done, Kṛṣṇa has done.

Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has helped you to do it.

Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that if we become sincere to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa can give us all opportunities. He's all-powerful; He can do that. (aside) Those who are going, give them. Those who are going, you can give one. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Do you read all these verses, those who are reading Bhagavad-gītā?

Guest (1): Just in progress.

Prabhupāda: This verse is very important.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

Every one of you is reading our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is?

Guests: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is there any question about?

Guest (1): Is there any question about Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: No, as you are reading Bhagavad-gītā, is there any doubt, question?

Rādhā-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to know if anyone has questions.

Prabhupāda: There is nothing doubtful, everything is very plain. But we, by our rascaldom, we make it doubt, by our rascal interpretation. Everyone can understand. Just like dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra. Still Kurukṣetra is there in India, and it is dharma-kṣetre. People go there for performing religious ritualistic ceremonies. So where is the difficulty to understand? And five thousand years ago the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas, they assembled there for fighting—that is clearly stated, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Who were they? Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva: "My sons and the sons of Pāṇḍu," Kuru-Pāṇḍava. So where is the difficulty to understand? But by misinterpretation they'll write volumes of books and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. This business should be stopped. Then we will be benefited. Everyone is misinterpreting. Is it not a fact they are misinterpreting? What do you think?

Devotee (1): So many intelligent people, they are going to Transcendental Meditation simply because it's costing money. They want to pay. My sister, her husband, they are intelligent people, but they are simply being misled . . .

Prabhupāda: So intelligent that they cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā. What kind of intelligence is that, the plain thing in the Bhagavad-gītā, they cannot understand?

Devotee (1): Very bad intelligence.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15).

Prabhupāda: Yes. So-called intelligent, they are not intelligent. They have lost their sense by the influence of māyā. Even big, big men, they say that Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa is not God. "The God Kṛṣṇa is different" and so on, so on. Hmm? Do they not say like that?

Indian man (3): I wanted to ask you a question. While talking to some of the European people, when we say that Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that asked him to fight, kill his own relatives and friends and not to bother about the consequences of the action. Now this statement sometimes is difficult for people of the West to understand, where they say before you do any action you should know the consequences and then only take action . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the only statement in the Bhagavad-gītā? There is no other statement?

Indian man (3): There is, but . . .

Prabhupāda: So you have captured that only.

Indian man (3): Not I . . .

Prabhupāda: You're talking of that.

Indian man (3): I'm talking discussion. In a discussion it's difficult to convince people of the West what is the answer to that.

Prabhupāda: But if you know Kṛṣṇa, that He is God, then whatever He speaks, it is all right. Just like Arjuna, he accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So he said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Find out this verse. So "Whatever You say, I accept it as truth." That is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā. If you have understood Bhagavad-gītā, then you should have understood that whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is truth. Read that.

Hari-śauri:

sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye

yan māṁ vadasi keśava

na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ

vidur devā na dānavāḥ

(BG 10.14)

Prabhupāda: Translation.

Hari-śauri: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me."

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is understanding. Arjuna is not a fool. He said: "Whatever You have said, I accept them as truth." That is real understanding. And as soon as you make amendment, that you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan vadasi keśava. There are so many rascals, they think, "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that." That is not understanding of Bhagavad-gītā.

Indian man (3): Does it mean that before we, or anybody, before he at all . . .

Prabhupāda: Before he, if . . . first of all he must know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then he will understand. That what is Kṛṣṇa, that he will understand from Bhagavad-gītā by this beginning. And at the end Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Lord. So if you know that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord, then whatever He says is correct.

Indian man (3): That means the first thing is to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, and then . . .

Prabhupāda: Not blindly.

Indian man (3): Not blindly.

Prabhupāda: Not blindly. But you must know . . . just like if you accept the government, and the government orders, "This man should be hanged," you have to accept it. You cannot protest that, "The government has ordered this man should be hanged. It should be protested." And who will care for your protest? Government is government. You cannot criticize. You may criticize on account of your less intelligence, but government order is all. Is it not? If government orders that, "This man should be hanged," can you say anything against it? It will not be accepted. Similarly, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, then as Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). Unless you understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's personality, you will try to weight the strength of His words, the value of His words. But if you understand other statement . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "I am the supreme authority." So if He is the supreme authority, then whatever He has said, it is all right. But if you have doubt about His supreme authority, then you will find out His fault. That is the defect. So if Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme authority . . ."

mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat

kiñcid asti dhanañjaya

mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ

sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva

(BG 7.7)

If you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then you will understand that whatever He has said, that is absolute. Now if we become doubtful, that is on account of our less intelligence. Why you are questioning this, that Kṛṣṇa . . . what you are question?

Indian man (3): I said that, as an Indian, suppose I try to speak about Gītā or philosophy of Hinduism to people in the neighborhood, either in the office or elsewhere, especially with the Europeans, it becomes a point for discussion where it becomes difficult to convince as to why a person should take action without knowing the consequences or even with knowing that the consequences are going to be bad. For instance, Arjuna had to kill his relatives. If he knows that he's going to do it, or if somebody, for instance, in a war, he knows that his friends are on the other side, he may find it hard to shoot at them . . .

Prabhupāda: So why Arjuna did later on?

Indian man (3): Because I think he took God's . . .

Prabhupāda: Because he was fool in the beginning, and after understanding Bhagavad-gītā he became intelligent. Why don't you take in that way? In the beginning, he was rascal. Therefore he needed instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. And when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, what did he say? Hmm? Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā. (aside) Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ, "Now my illusion is over." Smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana.

Hari-śauri:

naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā

tvat prasādān mayācyuta

sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ

kariṣye vacanaṁ tava

(BG 18.73)

Prabhupāda: Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ: "Now all my doubts are over. Now I shall kill." Why did you not say this to your European audience?

Indian man (3): Because I don't know the Gītā myself that good.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you preach? Then first of all know, then preach. If you did not know, you should not preach. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all make your life perfect, then try to make others perfect. Don't cheat others. So when Arjuna actually became intelligent, he said, sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. This is understanding. "Yes, now I am situated in my proper understanding, I shall carry out Your order."

Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard on one lecture tape, you mentioned your Guru Mahārāja has said that in the morning he had to beat the mind into submission.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): How can we do this?

Prabhupāda: Practice this. Your mind, when he says something hodgepodge, just beat him with shoes, just to bring him in order. Here is the real understanding, that:

naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā

tvat prasādān mayācyuta

sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ

kariṣye vacanaṁ tava

(BG 18.73)

This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether you are prepared to act according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. Otherwise you are in darkness. So as Arjuna, he was in the darkness . . . he's kṣatriya. The fight was arranged between the two sections of the family, Pāṇḍavas and Kurus, and when he was to fight actually with his family members, he became bewildered that, "Kṛṣṇa, what is this? I'll have to kill my family members." So then he became His disciple that, "I am kṣatriya, it is my duty to fight. Now I am hesitating." Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ (BG 2.7). "I'm just deviating from my duty, so Kṛṣṇa, I accept You as my guru; kindly give me instruction." So that Bhagavad-gītā was given instruction . . . (break) He agreed, "Yes, now my illusion is over, I shall fight." This is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā. If you follow Arjuna as he understood, then your understanding of Bhagavad-gītā is perfect. If you do not understand, then you have not understood what is Kṛṣṇa's speaking and what is Bhagavad-gītā. Yes?

Indian man (4): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad-gītā we can see that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that, "I will not fight for you, but I'll only drive your chariot." Why He refused to fight? Why He didn't fight?

Prabhupāda: That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī . . . Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two: His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that, "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two—My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that, "Kṛṣṇa will not fight, and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said: "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that, "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that, "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that, "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)

Indian man (3): He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another instance, that for His devotee He can break His promise also. That is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna . . . Duryodhana complained to Bhīṣmadeva that, "My dear grandfather, because you have affection for Arjuna and others, you are not fighting properly according to your strength." So at that time Bhīṣma saw that, "This man is doubting about my sincerity." So he wanted to show his power, so he said: "All right." He knew everything—he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa—so he promised to Duryodhana that "Tomorrow I shall fight in such a way that either Arjuna will die or Kṛṣṇa will have to break His promise." So he fought in such a way that Arjuna was practically vanquished. At that time, Kṛṣṇa took the wheel of the chariot and came before him that, "Bhīṣma, you stop this fight, otherwise I'll kill you." So Bhīṣma said: "Yes, I am stopping my fight, because You have broken Your promise, that's all." This is the dealing between God and His devotee. There is competition of devotional service. There are so many things. But on the whole, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the supreme authority. His instruction is final, and anyone who can understand this, his life is successful. Therefore our request is that don't make unnecessary useless interpretation. You take Bhagavad-gītā as it is and act accordingly, your life will be successful. This is our mission. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But if you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā, we can try to explain before you what it is. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (2): There are many svāmīs coming from India nowadays, and they are trying to establish, some of them like Gaṇapati temples or the Lord Śiva temples and so forth, and trying to confuse Westerners, especially Americans, because most of them, they do come to America. Being Indian, how we can help about this confusion?

Prabhupāda: You take Bhagavad-gītā as standard. Who is the Hindu or Indian there who can refuse the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? So you present them Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then it will not happen. I don't think any Indian or any Hindu can deny the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. Is there anyone?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: Then you present them. That is, I have taken, that this is the summum bonum of Indian culture, Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is accepted all over the world as the greatest book of knowledge, so take this standard and preach, and people will be enlightened, without misinterpretation.

Guest: Here's a svāmī, Swami Krishna-prema Idavatakar from Gorakhpur Vinodiya from Calcutta.

Indian lady: Swāmījī, I made this for you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very nice. He has come here? Let him come.

Indian lady: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Indian man (5): Swāmī? I have one question which is widely discussed everywhere, that eating of meat is sin. Now we see that while for our survival, while walking, while working we kill so many things, knowingly or unknowingly, is it not sin, that?

Prabhupāda: (to Svāmī guest) Aiye, aiye swami. (Come, come Swamiji.) Give him an āsana. Aiye. (Come.) Jaya. Kab aye idhar aap. Idhar hi rehte hain kya? (When did you come here? You are staying here only?) What is that question? Just try to understand.

Devotee (2): Why is meat-eating sin?

Hari-śauri: He said he can understand meat-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or not?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that whatever you eat, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Kṛṣṇa. It is not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our propaganda. But because we are trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we offer something to Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So not patraṁ puṣpam, whatever within this group available—fruits, flowers, grains, milk—so we offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not perform yajña, then you will be bound up by the resultant action. So this is yajña, to offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña means to satisfy Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-ārādhyate. Yajña means satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful. Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Either you eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating animals and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life. Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are simply eating sin. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. But if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, then if there is any sin, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, you take pure prasādam. And Kṛṣṇa is apāpa-vidham. So our duty is to worship Kṛṣṇa and offer Him so many nice things—fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We are doing that. You are taking prasādam. So that is our business. Is it clear, your answer?

Indian man (5): Yes.

Prabhupāda: We are interested in eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam. If Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Meat-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tāmasika, but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tāmasika. It is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, rājasika, tāmasika, sāttvika. Therefore we should eat sāttvika, and that is also after offering to Kṛṣṇa. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up.

Indian man (6): I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat.

Prabhupāda: When?

Indian man (6): Aśvamedha-yajña, all these things, and before that . . .

Prabhupāda: That is now prohibited.

aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ

sannyāsaṁ pala-paitṛkam

devareṇa sutotpattiṁ

kalau pañca vivarjayet

(CC Adi 17.164)

If you refer to śāstra, the śāstra says in Kali-yuga these should be avoided.

Guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme.

Prabhupāda: At that time, when there was aśvamedha-yajña, gomedha-yajña, that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra, how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brāhmaṇa, yajñika brāhmaṇa? There is no such things, powerful brāhmaṇa. Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged him that, "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in . . . "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your śāstra." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating.

Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why . . . how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by . . .

Prabhupāda: Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work. That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer-sāhīb. Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer-sāhīb," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa, if you call him a brāhmaṇa, then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fool's paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification in brāhmaṇa, if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa, he sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa, he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa: satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42) He must be truthful, he must be self-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brāhmaṇa.

Indian man (6): No, even in Rāmāyaṇa and Mahābhārata we find this kind of . . . Ekalavya was discriminated, Karṇa was discriminated . . .

Prabhupāda: Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brāhmaṇa. One must be brāhmaṇa by practice. That is wanted.

Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti (SB 2.4.18). The purificatory process . . . just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says, kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Kṛṣṇa-bhajane, if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that. Because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best Brāhmiṇ. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He immediately becomes on the brahmam platform. And brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahman. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa. So every devotee, if he's purely engaged in devotional service, he's more than brāhmaṇa. And so-called brāhmaṇa, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is not recognized. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syād vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ (Padma Purāṇa). If a dog-eater, caṇḍāla, he has become a Vaiṣṇava, he can be guru. But a brāhmaṇa, ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt. If he's expert, Vedic chanting and everything, mantra-tantra-viśārada, but if he's not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot become guru. So according to our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . that is actually according to Vedic injunction. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become more than a brāhmaṇa. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then your life is successful. And Kṛṣṇa is being distributed by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Not only He's giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema, kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind, merciful, He's not only giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema, which is very, very rare. Aap idhar kahan tehre hain? udhar koi mandir hai? Chaliye kuch prachar to ho raha hai. Kṛṣṇa bhakti Gītā Press vishesh prachar kar rahi hai. To kaise kam chal raha hai. Teen-char mahine rahiyega idhar. Hamara jo program hai vo to aplog manenge nahi. Dekhiye na ye sab angrez log mast mundan kiya, tilak lagaya. Ye hum apko bolenge to aap bigad jayenge. Ye to hamara padatti ipehle hai mast mundan karo, tilak lagao. (Where are you staying here? Is there any temple there? Okay, at least some preaching is going on. Kṛṣṇa devotion, Gītā Press is doing special publicity. So how is the work going on? Will you stay for 3 to 4 months here? The program, what we have is not agreeable to you? Look at these foreigners, they are so happy with shaved heads, applying tilak on their forehead. If I tell you this you will get upset. This is our practice, to become shaved head and apply tilak.)

Indian man (4): Prabhupāda? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God?

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (aside) You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here? Yes. Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajña like anything. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7), so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahiṁsā paramo dharma, "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajña, as you were saying, that there is . . . animal killing is recommended. So people presented that, "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajña." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that, "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question?

Indian man (4): I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they were all godless, so he said: "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. (laughter) Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others. Yes?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna:

tataḥ kalau sampravṛtte

sammohāya sura-dviṣām

buddho nāmnāñjana-sutaḥ

kīkaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati

(SB 1.3.24)

Prabhupāda: Translation.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Then in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists."

Prabhupāda: To delude them. Read the purport.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gītā a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge.

"According to the Bhagavad-gītā, the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity of the soul are animal killers. Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyāsīs have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas."

Prabhupāda: Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyāsī, they are eating meat. That is going on. They say: "What is the wrong of eating meat? We can eat." They eat meat. Then?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Saheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse."

Prabhupāda: There, your question.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Because the asuras, or the so-called scholars of Vedic . . ."

Prabhupāda: Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. Do you think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstances, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says: "Thou shall not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt ka uttamaśloka . . . (SB 10.1.4). If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished.

Guest (1): May I ask a question, Prabhupāda? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Kṛṣṇa from . . .

Prabhupāda: No, he says that he is son of God—that is accepted.

Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa was Christ's father then.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is father, and Christ is the son.

Guest (1): I understand it now. I just wondered. I wanted to hear . . .

Prabhupāda: He came, "I am son of God." Yes.

Guest (1): And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is. Yes.

Guest (1): I understand. It all fits together now.

Indian man (7): Swāmījī, how could you convince then these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Kṛṣṇa was the . . .

Prabhupāda: Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter)

Indian man (7): Many Christians, they do not . . .

Prabhupāda: Many Christians also . . . there are so many Christian editions. That is another thing.

Bali-mardana: We have accepted.

Prabhupāda: But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Kṛṣṇa as the father?

Guest (1): Prabhupāda, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa. We accept him as śaktyāveśa-avatāra. So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said: "He's our guru." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru. He's preaching God's message, he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience . . . now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction, "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said: "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with.

Guest (1): What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems.

Prabhupāda: Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves.

Devotee (3): So we read that Christ said: "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Kṛṣṇa, so therefore Kṛṣṇa can't be God.

Prabhupāda: "One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That means we are one in quality. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. So now we are material bhūtaḥ, jīva-bhūtaḥ. When we realize that, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ. Then bhakti begins.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

(BG 18.54)

Then he enters into Vaikuṇṭha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No.

Prabhupāda: Go on, finish it.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order . . ."

Prabhupāda: Just like you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore . . . (break) That was not killing. So instead of wasting his time, he said: "I don't care for your Vedas. It is my order that you stop if you love me." Here is the same . . . you cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas, or any sacrifice either. The Jews and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa. That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing. There will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal eaters, they are given this concession that, "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this Goddess Kālī–worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā, the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up, "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal . . ." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up."

Indian man (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are so many gurus preaching Buddhism . . .

Prabhupāda: We are not talking of so many gurus; we are talking of real guru, that's all, real guru. Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Kṛṣṇa. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). That is guru. The bhumi-phala guru is no guru. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt. Anyone who is not Vaiṣṇava, he's not guru. First, He says in the Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavān, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Find out this. He is guru who is preaching what Kṛṣṇa has taught. He's guru. Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru. No. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru, that is your business, but who is guru, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who preaches the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you become guru." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Kṛṣṇa, not . . ." We say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru. Kṛṣṇa's instruction; not to become Kṛṣṇa. If you want to become Kṛṣṇa, then you are not guru, you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say: "My master has fixed up this price, you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that, "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become guru." And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus, they're cheater. They want to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is God so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra, I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that, "Whether I can actually become God?" They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. So, what is the time now?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Prasādam. (to Swāmī) What is that book?

Swami Krishna-prema: (indistinct) . . . '67 . . . (indistinct) . . . with three disciples,

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Swami Krishna-prema: . . . Bombay to Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Ah. (end)