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760705 - Conversation A - Washington D.C.

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(Redirected from Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla -- July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.)
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



760705R1-WASHINGTON DC - July 05, 1976 - 93:17 Minutes


(Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla)



Prabhupāda: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework, as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja rightly said, deha-yogena dehinām (SB 7.6.3). This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinām.

But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivāt, by the superior arrangement. Daivāt. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha-yogena dehinām, sarvatra labhyate daivāt (SB 7.6.3). By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahmā or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. (aside) You can come in front.

Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently . . . so that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivāt. So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlāda Mahārāja says . . . where is that book, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Seventh Canto? Tat-prayāso na kartavyo, don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayāso na kartavyo. Why not? Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. You can read.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

tat-prayāso na kartavyo
yata āyur-vyayaḥ param
na tathā vindate kṣemaṁ
mukunda-caraṇāmbujam
(SB 7.6.4)

Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development."

Prabhupāda: This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat-prayāso na kartavyo. We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged . . . I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress.

Prabhupāda: So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement . . . sometimes we arrange Hare Kṛṣṇa festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kīrtana, they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bhārata-bhūmi, anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that . . . what they have said?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress.

Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Adi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him that, "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa. In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, they are all kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava, Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is on the basis . . . it is called bhāgavata-dharma. Prahlāda Mahārāja begins his teaching that this bhāgavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas, drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance . . . just like you have given. What is that?

Mr. Loomis: Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not.

Prabhupāda: Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Sense gratification is required as far as . . . as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya, or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya. In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna, this means we are advanced in spiritual taste. It is practice. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvāmīs. About them, it is said: nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, tar madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā 'ke jetā koṭhina saṁsāre. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the śāstra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Our present senses are unable to understand sri kṛṣṇa nāmādi, the holy name of the Lord. Ādi, beginning from His name, nāma, then guṇa, qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti.

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hṛṣikeṇa hṛṣīkeśa
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
(CC Madhya 19.170)

Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣikeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam. God's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Kṛṣṇa's hand. Kṛṣṇa has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Kṛṣṇa.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deṣe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
(BG 18.61)

It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So actually it is not my body, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra, machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Kṛṣṇa has given us this machine manufactured by material nature.

Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking, "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking, "This is American machine, it should be used for America's benefit." These are upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr . . . how shall I address you?

Devotees: Loomis.

Prabhupāda: What is the spelling?

Devotees: L-o-o-m . . .

Prabhupāda: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that, "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that, "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that, "I am American." This yesterday . . .

Mr. Loomis: Under the impression that what?

Prabhupāda: Everyone is thinking that, "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or . . .

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference.

Prabhupāda: No difference. That is described in the śāstra. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). This body is made of . . . everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood?

Mr. Loomis: Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body?

Prabhupāda: Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Find out this verse. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. This is the business, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kāmasya nendriya-prītir labho jīveta yāvatā (SB 1.2.10).

Prabhupāda: Labho jīveta yāvatā. You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the only business.

Mr. Loomis: For this machine?

Prabhupāda: All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya, as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Kṛṣṇa instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyāsadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. (break)

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya, that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain.

Prabhupāda: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest.

Prabhupāda: Not for beauty rest. (laughter)

Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, be dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help.

Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but . . . everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehāntara praptir. Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). That is brahmacārī system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13).

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇāpe tri-dhātuke
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idyadhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
(SB 10.84.13)

So just we are trying to save men from this go-kharaḥ civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21).

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Have the writings of Vidyāpati come to attention, and if they have . . .

Prabhupāda: That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyāpati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, they will be discussed.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations?

Prabhupāda: It is not for ordinary. Cāṇḍīdāsa, Vidyāpati. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyāpati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: So you think they might be misused.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being misused. They take Kṛṣṇa as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with this material world, as Śaṅkarācārya said, nārāyaṇaḥ para avyaktāt, avyaktāt anna sambhava. This material world is a production . . . (break) It has to be purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When it is nirmalam, then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23). This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood.

Indian man: Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Kṛṣṇa conscious life?

Prabhupāda: Art?

Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so . . .

Prabhupāda: Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Kṛṣṇa. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopādhi-vinir . . . tat-paratvena. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). So if you can serve Kṛṣṇa by your hand, by painting about Kṛṣṇa, that is service. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu, about Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, ānandamayo 'byāsāt. So these things are producing ānanda. If it is in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it is service. (aside) So, Pālikā, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way . . .

Prabhupāda: Just explain.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai viṣṇu. Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of ātmā, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupāda said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupāda gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For . . . engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing.

Prabhupāda: Practical.

Devotee: When we have Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . struggling for . . . (indistinct) . . . it has to be a struggle.

Prabhupāda: What is struggle? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance and take prasādam. (devotee cheers)

Prabhupāda: Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasādam, nice prasādam, is struggle? (laughs)

Devotee: No. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: You simply take prasādam, you haven't got to struggle. (laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: At all.

Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Find out this verse.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So . . .

Prabhupāda: And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for . . . (indistinct) . . . everything . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that, "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything . . . (indistinct) . . . You don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy . . . (indistinct) . . . you have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say?

Devotee (3):

rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ
pavitram idam uttamam
pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyaṁ
su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam
(BG 9.2)

"This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed."

Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy?

Prabhupāda: Yes. . . . (indistinct)

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda mentions in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society? If so, how can you be . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The basic principle is that—Prabhupāda mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk—that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam. So jihva, the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha, genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tāra madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudur . . . always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasādam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasādam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this . . . (indistinct) . . . is required. It's common sense.

Guest: There are two, two functions in the tongue, one is . . . (indistinct) . . . and one is . . . (indistinct) . . .? So which one . . . (indistinct) . . . preaching is a form of tapasya? . . . (indistinct)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad-gītā, the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech:

anudvega-karaṁ vākyaṁ
satyaṁ priya-hitaṁ ca yat
svādhyāyābhyasanaṁ caiva
vāṅ-mayam tapa ucyate

It's an austerity, tapa. Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there?

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everyone. . . . (indistinct)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But that everything should be done in relationship to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will become purified. Hṛṣīkeśa hṛṣīkeṇa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are engaged for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then they're no longer . . . the senses are compared to the sharp teeth of serpents, serpents' . . . (indistinct) . . . sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, the shark teeth, they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Kṛṣṇa's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation.

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs . . . (indistinct) . . . if the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So . . . (indistinct) . . . but if I am sure that his fangs are taken away . . . (indistinct) . . . senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that (Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous.

Devotee: Is it true or not true that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta said that failure is the pillar of success and if it is true, what success . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know exactly if Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has used this saying . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is . . . (indistinct)

Devotee (3): I asked Prabhupāda the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible to forget the past? Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan . . . basically our experience from the material world should be duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: So this . . . it explains also in the Nectar of Instruction that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this sticking his finger in the fan . . . again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's called durācara, misbehavior. So atonement, according to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence is that, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one . . . he knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athāto brahma jijñāsā. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self-interest, become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: So what is his question?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul.

Prabhupāda: Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul.

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . matter.

Prabhupāda: Yeah, subtle matter . . . (indistinct)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur (BG 3.42).

Prabhupāda: Oh, indriyāṇi parāny āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ.

Prabhupāda: So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without being . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritually initiated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Senses . . . (indistinct) . . . it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasādam, so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Kṛṣṇa, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how would he say hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Kṛṣṇa? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarnane (SB 9.4.18). Manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ, fix up your mind in Kṛṣṇa, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Kṛṣṇa, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jñāna. Or little more on yoga. Karma, jñāna and yoga. So one has to give up all these, karma, jñāna. The karmīs are working for sense gratification. The jñānīs are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Aṣṭa-siddhi. So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. . . (indistinct). If you are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmīs are grossly, they want something for sense gratification . . . (indistinct) . . . they want nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . so many things. That is karmī life. Jñānī, as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, this endeavor for all mithyā. They take sannyasa, but after few days, again they take to the karmī's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmī, jñāni, yogi, restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). And then you become happy. Simply ready . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, what was his position? His position was, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not become a karmī, jñāni, yogi. Simply . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusūdana.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

arjuna uvāca
naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā
tvat-prasādan mayācyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ
kariṣye vacanaṁ tava
(BG 18.73)

Prabhupāda: This is wanted. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Kṛṣṇa, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad-gītā was talked, and after learning he says: "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava." . . . (indistinct) . . . this is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say: "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñānīs are "No, God." The karmīs are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas, "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question?

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning?

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if . . .

Prabhupāda: So why they should interpret different way?

Guest: What was the question?

Prabhupāda: Just . . . explain to him.

Devotee: There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . now in our . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't actually substantiate that God is impersonal, because Kṛṣṇa is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? . . . (indistinct) . . . So Prabhupāda said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Kṛṣṇa said, literally, as it is . . . (indistinct)

Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So . . .

Prabhupāda: It is in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is clearly said, bhagavān uvāca. It is never said Brahman uvāca. (laughter) People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But in the Bhagavad-gītā it is never said Paramātmā uvāca. (laughter) Or Brahman uvāca. Bhagavān uvāca! Vyāsadeva, He does not say kṛṣṇa uvāca, because Kṛṣṇa will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyāsadeva) directly says, śrī bhagavān uvāca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavān. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Bhagavān says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging (?) the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture.

Guest: Well, the example is that Śaṅkarācārya, who was of course . . .

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam, "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just . . ."

Guest: On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam.

Prabhupāda: No. He is correct in the study. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are śūnyavādis. So he said, "No, it is not śūnya. That is Brahman. This material world is false, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said: "No, the material world is false, Brahman is false, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindaṁ brahmate bhaja govindam.

Guest: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Śaṅkarācārya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Śaṅkarācārya." And of course he did and Śaṅkarācārya started running. So this man said: "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said: "So is my running." (laughter) He said: "So is my running, that's also an illusion."

Rūpānuga: But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupāda, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Kṛṣṇa consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad-gītā and a few scriptures teach about Kṛṣṇa but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Kṛṣṇa's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti.

Prabhupāda: No. There are Vedas, there are so many names described. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa by studying Vedas, then he has not studied Vedas. It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam? If one has studied Veda, but has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then his labor is useless. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). If one is actually jñānavān, then he . . . (indistinct) . . . Śaṅkarācārya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the Vedas, you don't find Kṛṣṇa's name, then he has not studied Veda. Because Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The actual purpose of studying Vedas means to understand Kṛṣṇa. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). They have simply labored for nothing.

Guest: Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of Vedas, it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the Vedas. This is something that people have . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda, there is name, there is . . . Jīva Gosvāmī has quoted from Atharva Veda. There is Kṛṣṇa's name. And this, the best scholar of Vedas . . . (indistinct) . . . he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa, Śaṅkarācārya. Then other ācāryas they have supported Kṛṣṇa's teachings, just like Rāmānujācārya, and . . . (indistinct) . . . he has quoted Vedic quotation, every śloka. So one has to learn the real Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's name. But one must be actually scholar in Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end."

Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Ṛg Veda, . . . (indistinct) . . . example of glorifications of Kṛṣṇa there?

Prabhupāda: Everything is glorification of Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (3): Whenever Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the Vedas, He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say: "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda, (Sanskrit). "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Either you accept this Kṛṣṇa's statement, or you reject Kṛṣṇa. But He says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. What do you want more?

Guest: Well, Prabhupādajī, if anyone has gone to Gītā and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read Gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have concentrated on Gītā. This movement—when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," some friend said: "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are particularly preaching Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. That is our propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . (aside) Yes?

Guest (2): There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedas . . . (indistinct) . . . books that Kṛṣṇa's name in the Vedas is mentioned.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Devotee: Kṛṣṇa's name in the Vedas is already there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: He has clearly . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15)?

Guest (3): The Māyāvādīs say that Vedānta is impersonal, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedānta . . .

Prabhupāda: You do not know what is Vedānta . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning of Vedānta, athāto brahma jijñāsā. "Now try to inquire about this Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman." The next verse is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Bhāgavatam is the real explanation of Veda. Brahma-sūtra . . . (indistinct) . . . mahasyam brahma-sūtrānāṁ Vedasya parividyatam, this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Vedasya parividyatam . . . (indistinct) . . . avyayam, brahma-sūtrasya uvaca, by Vyāsadeva himself. Vyāsadeva is the writer of Vedānta-sūtra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Nārada. So to understand Vedānta, you have to study Bhāgavatam. He's explained janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1). Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So what is the nature? Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca . . . (end)