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770514 - Conversation - Hrishikesh

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770514ED-HRISHIKESH - May 14, 1977 - 69:58 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Fifth Canto, fifth chapter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifth Canto, fifth chapter? I don't have the first volume, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We only have the second volume of Fifth Canto with us.

Prabhupāda: No other Bhāgavatam?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We do. We have Prahlāda Mahārāja teachings, Seventh Canto.

Prabhupāda: No, Bhāgavatam original?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Original Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Paṇḍitjī might have taken.

Prabhupāda: Ask Pradyumna.

Upendra: Is he downstairs?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think so.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Upendra: Paṇḍitjī's not here.

Prabhupāda: Why he does not remain here?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He does his work at the Svargāśrama. He's supposed to come here to explain. He's been coming every day.

Prabhupāda: You recite that verse, nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti (SB 5.5.4). The instruction of King Ṛṣabhadeva to His sons. He said that, "This body, human body . . ." Ayaṁ dehaḥ. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Deha. Everyone has got deha, body. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "After this body is finished, another body." Because ātmā, na jāyate na mriyate vā, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Ātmā is eternal. There is no birth, no death. Nitya, eternal; śāśvataḥ purāṇaḥ, the oldest; and na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. Therefore this is the problem. The ātmā has no birth, no death, and neither he is dead after the annihilation of this body. But we are put into this condition. We are not put, but we have put ourself. We are putting ourself in this condition of repetition of birth and death. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once we take birth, and again we annihilate this body.

So Ṛṣabhadeva says, "This ignorance of self-realization must be removed." Therefore He says, ayaṁ dehaḥ: "This body should not be misused like animals," āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. This is the advice. Ayaṁ dehaḥ nṛloke. He especially mentions, nṛloke: "in the human form of body." The dog, cat, or doglike man, catlike man, they may remain in ignorance. They have no chance. There are uncivilized men. Although they have got two hands, two legs, but because there is no knowledge, they have been described as dvi-pada-paśu. They are animal with two legs. Other animals, they have got four legs, and this rascal has got two legs. That is the difference. So ayaṁ dehaḥ, this body, na ayaṁ dehaḥ nṛloke . . . nāyaṁ dehaḥ nṛlo . . . deha-bhājām. Deha-bhājām. This is also very significant. There are innumerable living entities. Jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa anantyāya kalpate (CC Madhya 19.140). These jīvas, living entities, part and parcel of God, anantyāya kalpate. Just like the sunshine. What is the sunshine? The sunshine, this is very atomic parts of the sun brightness. They are individual, but they are combined. We see one shining. So similarly, God is compared with the sun, and we are atomic particles of God—the same thing in a very small quantity. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca. You take the tip of the hair and divide it into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the formation of the jīva.

śatadhā kalpitasya ca
jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ
sa ānantyāya kalpate
(CC Madhya 19.140)

You cannot count how many there are. Now these, some of the jīvas . . . not all of them. Majority of them, they live in the spiritual world, just like majority of the population of the state, they live outside the prison house. Prison house means some of the citizens who are criminals, they are put into the jail. Similarly, these living entities who are criminals, means who have rebelled against the order of God, they are sent here, in this material world. So they are suffering, one term after another. Therefore here is the chance, ayaṁ dehaḥ nṛloke. In the form of human body you can get out of it. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). This is chance. And therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says: "My dear boys, you don't spoil your life." "I am working and enjoying. I am not spoiling." "No, this kind of working is done by the cats and hogs." Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1): "For sense gratification the hogs and dogs, they also work very hard and then enjoy senses. So this body is not meant for that purpose." You are thinking that you are working so hard, karmī, and big, big skyscraper building and nice motorcar, nice roads. Electricity you have discovered. You are very advanced. Ṛṣabhadeva says: "This kind of advancement is . . ." (break) . . . motorcar. "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" Therefore He warns, "No, no, no, no. This is not civilization." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān (SB 5.5.1). "So much hard labor for sense gratification? This is not good." Then? What it is meant for? Tapa divyam.

So human life is meant for tapasya, self-realization, ātma-śuddhi. Ātmā can be purified from the contamination of the material modes of nature by tapasya. That is real civilization. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam. Your existence will be purified. Now your existence is not purified. Therefore you have to accept birth and death, old age and disease. It is not purified. So here is the chance to purify your existence. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvaṁ yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). Brahman means the greatest, unlimited. You are hankering after happiness, but if you purify your existence, then you get unlimited happiness of Brahman. Anantam: "There is no end." Here, whatever happiness you are getting, that is not unlimited. Limited. That limited happiness is available in the life of cats and dogs also. So the human life is meant for tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvaṁ yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam.

So this tapasya can be practiced . . . mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ (SB 5.5.2). You have to render your service to mahat, mahat, mahātmā. And who is mahātmā? Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ (BG 9.13). This is mahātmā. Kṛṣṇa says. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā
(BG 7.19)

One who has understood Kṛṣṇa—"Vāsudeva is everything"—he is mahātmā. Sa mahātmā. So that is recommended. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ (SB 5.5.2). If you get the chance of getting such mahātmā, then try to give him service. Become his servant. Then your path of liberation will be open. And tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam: those who are after sense gratification, if you associate with them, then you are going to the darkness. Two ways are open: āhur vimukteḥ and dvāram, tamo-dvāram. Now make your choice, "In which way we shall go, in this way or that way?"

Everything is given, information, in the Bhagavad-gītā and all other śāstras. Bhagavad-gītā is the gist of all Vedas and Upaniṣads, Vedānta. Vedānta-kṛd vedānta-vit. Kṛṣṇa is vedānta-vit and vedānta-kṛt. Kṛṣṇa, in His incarnation as Vyāsadeva, He has compiled the Vedānta-sūtra. He has recommended also in the Bhagavad-gītā, brahma-sūtra-padaiś caiva hetumadbhir viniścitaiḥ (BG 13.5). Brahma-sūtra-padaiḥ, everything is established very reasonably. So Kṛṣṇa is speaking Vedānta-sūtra. Veda means knowledge; anta means the end of knowledge. The end of knowledge is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān (BG 7.19). Man of knowledge is jñānavān. So ordinary jñānavān, little knowledge, they cannot understand. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). But a person cultivating knowledge for many lives, he can understand, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So Vāsudeva personally explaining Himself, "I am like this; I am like that." Why should we not understand? What is the objection? Boliye.

Indian man (1): There should be no objection.

Prabhupāda: But people are not following Vāsudeva. They are creating new Vāsudeva. And somebody told that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man? Trivikrama Mahārāja or somebody told me. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the people who are coming in at night are saying that.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

vāsudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ
janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ
jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
(SB 1.2.7)

In order to come to the position of that mahātmā, one has to render service to Vāsudeva. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ. Then jñāna-vairāgya automatically will be manifested. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Real life means vairāgya. Just like these boys known as hippies, they are trying for vairāgya. They are coming from countries, very opulent, rich father, mother, but they do not like; inclined to vairāgya, renunciation. But renunciation must be based on knowledge, jñāna-vairāgya. So that they are lacking. They are not fixed up. But there is a tendency of vairāgya. Is it not? That is also good. Vairagya to hota nahi. Bada mushkil hai, chod nahi sakte. (Renunciation does not happen, it is very difficult—cannot renounce.) Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, there is compulsory vairāgya. As soon as one is fifty years old, he must give up family life. ;;Pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet;;. Aiye. Ye chodta hi nahi. Jab tak goli nahi mar diya. Gandhi the mahaatma, politics choda hi nahi. jab use goli se mar diya gaya, to ab kya kare. Chodna hi pada, ye hai. (Please come. He did not give up, until he was not shot at. Mahatma Gandhi, he was a mahatma, he did not leave politics. When he was shot at, then what could he do? Then he had to leave, this is it.) Jawaharlal Nehru, up to the end of his life he wanted to remain prime minister, Govind Vallabh Pant, Chodta hi nahi. Zabardasti chodaya jata hi, Yamraj. Ye sochta nahi, ye chodna to padega, 10-20 varsh pehle chod diya jaye aur usme gyan-vairagya, ye buddhiman hai. Chodna to padega. Aap zabadadasti chahe ki hum bada safely reh jaye. "mrtyu sarva haras chaham" bhagvan ek din mrtyu ke roop me aakarke sab cheen lenge. Khatam, tumhara home, tumhara prestige, tumhara business, tumhara bank balance . . . "sarva hara" - everything, ye to sab ko maloom hai ki zabardasti cheen liya gaya hai, to voluntarily 10-20 varsh pehle na chod diya jaye, gyan-vairagya seekha jaye, bhagvan Vasudeva kya bol rahe hain, usko apne jivan me practical application kare. (He does not quit. Forcibly he has to quit. Yamaraja, he does not think that he has to quit one day. Let me quit 10 to 20 years earlier and become detached and acquire spiritual knowledge. Such a person is intelligent, he has to quit. If you think that I shall stay safely here forever "Mrtyu sarva haras chaham". God appears in the form of death and takes away everything, finished. Your home, your prestige, your business, your bank balance . . . this everyone knows—that it is taken away forcibly. So why not voluntarily give it up 10 to 20 years earlier and learn renunciation and acquire knowledge? What Lord Vasudeva is saying, apply it practically in your life.) (pause)

Ab ye jo indra trpti ke liye bada-bada temple, ye uchit nahi hai . . . (indistinct) . . . "na sadhu manye" ye theek nahi hai, why, rupaya kamana hain, eating, sadhu nahi . . . (indistinct) . . . ye sab kaam me yehi labh hota hai. "asann api lklesh . . ." ye jo sharir tumko mila hai . . . aur phir tumko chodna padega. Aur jahan sharir mila kleshada, kewal dukh. Chaitanya sharir hai, 10-20-25 zyada-se-zyada, aur kuch zyada 50 saal, "asann api" kuch din ke liye aur ye jab tak rahega tumko klesh rahega anek prakar ke. Isko samajh na hey. Yogic kriya sikhaya jata hai, sharir mot-taaza rehne ke liye . . . isse kya labh hoga. Sharir to chal raha hai. Aisa kuch seekao ke sharir nahi chutega. Wo to bhagavat bhajan me hi ho sakega. Isme labh kya hoga. (conversation not clear) (Now these big big temples for sense gratification, this is not required . . . (indistinct) . . . "Na sadhu manye." This is not correct, why? They are earning money, eating, not a saint . . . (indistinct) . . . in all this work this is the advantage. "asann api klesha." this body which you have got . . . and then you have to leave this body and when you get a body then suffering, only misery. This is an energetic body, full of life, 10 to 20 to 25 maximum, or if more then 50 years of life, "Asann api." Just for some days and as long as it is there, then you will have suffering of different kinds. This needs to be understood. They are taught yogic activities, to remain fresh and healthy . . . what is the use of this? The body is living. Give such knowledge where you don't take birth again in another body and this can happen only in singing the Lord's glories . . . what will be the benefit of this? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . .)

Guest: Maan pe control hota hoga. (By doing that, maybe the mind can be controlled.)

Prabhupada: Usme Labh kya hey? (But what is the benefit of it?) Bhakti kisike upar nirbhar nehi hey. Ahaituky apratihatā. That is bhakti. Bhakti agar koi prakrtik karyakram me usme nirbhar hai wo bhakti pure nahi. Pure bhakti jo hai "savai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhakti adhoksaje ahaituki apratihata yen atma suprasidatti". (Devotion is not dependent on anything. Ahaituky apratihatā. That is bhakti. If devotion is dependent on some material activities then it is not pure devotion. Pure devotion is "Savai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhakti adhoksaje ahaituki apratihata yen atma suprasidatti.") Bhakti jo hai wo hamara gyan hai isliye bhakti hua hai. Ye hamara jo bhi siddhi isliye bhakti nahi. (Devotion is as per our knowledge, that is why we have got devotion. Devotion is not because of our achievements.)

Guest: Hoga to gyan se. (It will come with knowledge.)

Prabhupada: Nahi gyan se bhi nahi. Hanuman ko kya gyan tha? Woh to pasu tha. (Not with knowledge. What knowledge did Hanuman have? He was an animal.)

Guest: Saranagati. (Surrender.)

Prabhupada: Wo vedantist thoda hi tha. Ramchandra bole pahad se dawai le aao, wo ud karke kahan dawai hai pura pahad hi utha le aaya, lijiye Mahraj pahad, aap dawai dhoond lijiye. Seva vritti, usi me bajrangji . . . bhakti, gyan-vairagya anavritti gyan viairagya se, balki gyan-vairagya bhakti ka . . . (He was not a vedantist. Lord Ramchandra told him to get medicine from a mountain. Hanuman flew to search for medicine in the mountain, he brought the entire mountain and told his Lord to search for the medicine. Serving attitude, only in that he . . . devotion, knowledge and renunciation—knowledge comes from renunciation. In fact knowledge and renunciation is part of devotion . . .)

Without bhakti, jñāna is never sufficient, but bhakti does not depend . . . ahaituky apratihatā. It cannot be checked. Gyan jab Bhagavan unko svayam de raha hai . . . (When God Himself is giving him knowledge . . .) "tesa anukampartham aham agyanayan tamang na sayati." Jiska agyan chala gaya, usko alagse gyan sikhneke kya jarurat? (One who is already out of ignorance, why does he need to take knowledge again?) Bhagavān is within. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61).

And He assures . . . ki bhakt ko hum special favour denge " tesa eva anukampartham . . ." usko agyan kahan hai. Ye galat baat hai ki bhakt log agyani hain. Bhakt log ka hi asal gyan hai. Gyan siddhi hone ke paschat bhakti. "brahma bhuta prasannatma na sochati na kanksati." (The Lord assures us that he will give a special favor to the devotees. "Tesa eva anukampartham . . ." He is not in ignorance. This is a misconception that devotees are ignorant. Devotees' knowledge is real knowledge. After acquiring knowledge, then devotion. "Brahma bhuta prasannatma na socati na kanksati.") The so-called jñānī, he wants to become liberated and become one with the Supreme—kāṅkṣati. When actually one is self-realized, na kāṅkṣati. Yogī kāṅkṣati. Siddhi kya magic dikhane se, kanksati, balki real bhakti jo hai na kanksati. To kaun hai? "mad bhakte labhate param sama sarvesu bhutesu" . . . ye sab stage paar karke na kanksati. Karmi log bolta hai ye cheez hamare pas nahi hai, ye cheeez hamara tha kho baitha. Gyani log na kanksati. humko mukti chahiye, unko siddhi chahiye. To ye brahma bhuta stage nahi hai, wo ek stage hai, ek aavaran hai gyan-vairagya. Theek hai ki nahi, jab brahma bhuta ho jayega to usko akanshka kya. (Can we achieve something by magic? Kanksati, but actual devotion is not aspiring for oneself. So who is it? "Mad bhakte labhate param sama sarvesu bhutesu." After going through these stages then one becomes desireless. The materialists say that I don't have this, I had this but I lost it. But the one who is in knowledge is desireless. I want liberation, but they want siddhis. So this is not the brahma bhuta stage—that is one stage, one covering. Knowledge and renunciation. Am I right? When he is fully realized, then where are the desires?)

Guest: Phir kiski iccha karen? (Then whom to desire for?)

Prabhupada: Jo natural hai. (That which is natural.) Bhagavān is the Supreme. We are part and parcel. So I have already given you the example, these fingers, part and parcel of the body. The only desire should be how to serve the body. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . abhi kitna kaam karte hain, tel le aao, . . . pakad liya. Ye nahi bolta hum khayenge, khud liya, we eat. Humara stage jo hai aur khoob pakad-pakad ke bhagvan ko khilao. Abhi . . . ye iccha jab palat jayega hum nahi khayenge, bhagvan . . . (. . . now how much he works, go and get oil, . . . caught it. He does not say I will eat it, takes it himself—we eat. Our stage is we forcibly make God eat. Now when this desire changes, then we will not eat, God . . .) that desire is the . . . then where is that picture? The gopīs are pushing Rādhārāṇī to Kṛṣṇa? Ye picture hai padhiye usme kya likha hai. (Read what is written there in the picture.)

Indian man (1): Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, no, no.

Indian man (1): Rādhārāṇī, sorry.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): Therefore all the cowherd girls are trying to push Her to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhārāṇī.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): Therefore all the cowherd girls are trying to push Her to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Ye duniya me kya hota hai, hinsa karo. (In this world what happens, violence.) "Oh? Kṛṣṇa likes Her?" They become envious. But here: "Oh? Kṛṣṇa likes Her? All right."

Indian man (1): To please Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The purpose is to please Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . I am explaining in Hindi (to another guest). Ki krishna ko khush karna hai. Krishna ka seva karna hai. (We have to make Kṛṣṇa happy, we have to serve Kṛṣṇa.)

Prabhupāda: Apka question hai na kya desire, yehi desire ki krishna kis tarah se sukhi reh sakte hain. to Vrindavan ka jo vatavaran hai na sab chahte hain Krishna ko kis tarah se sukhi kare. Yashoda mai chahte hain, Nand maharaj bhi chahte hain, wo gopa log bhi chahte hain, cows bhi chahte hain, calves bhi chahte hain, trees bhi chahte hain, water bhi chahte hain, sab chahte hain krishna centre ho. (Your question was what to desire for, this is the desire that how will Kṛṣṇa be happy? So the atmosphere in Vrindavan is where everyone is thinking how to please Kṛṣṇa. Yasoda wants, Nanda Maharaja also wants. Those cowherd friends want, the cows also want, the calves also want. The trees want, the water wants, everyone wants to put Kṛṣṇa in the center.) That is Vṛndāvana. That is described in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that . . . aiye. (come.) Ātmendriya-prīti-vāñchā tāre bali kāma (CC Adi 4.165). Kaam aur prem me itna hi farak hai, dekhne me itna. The gopīs' līlā with Kṛṣṇa . . . aise duniya me dekha jata hai bahut se longon ka mazaak karte hain. (This is the only difference between lust and love. We have seen in this world that many people in ignorance make fun of this intimate pastime.)

Indian man (1): That is kāma.

Prabhupāda: Kya farak hai. (What is the difference?) Here the desire is "How Kṛṣṇa will be happy." Aur kaam jo hai mai kis tarah se khush rahoon. (And lust is how I can be happy.)

Indian man: Krishna ko khush karne ka hai to wo.. aur apna khush karna indra tripti ke liye (indistinct). (If you want to make Kṛṣṇa happy then . . . and our happiness if for sense gratification . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupada: Idhar jo prem naam se chalta hai ek vyakti aur ek guru dono ke bhitar me hai main kis tarah se khush hoon aur jab tak apne sukh anubhav nahi karta hai to . . . (Here what goes on in the name of love is between a person and his master and how can I be happy? Until he experiences happiness then . . .) The Western countries . . .jahan dekho hamara kaam tripti me hain, chodo ye sab. (there you can see that they are all in sense gratification, leave all this.)

Indian man (1): That is all sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: That's all. There is no prem. There cannot be any prema within this material world. All kāma. Sab kaam. Yani ki wo chahte hain ki hamari mukti ho jaye. Wo kaam hai. Wo nahi chahte hain ki doosre kis tarah se khush rahe. Yogi wo chahte hain kis tarah se mai siddhi prapt karoon, magic dikhao, bhaut aadmi hamare paas aayenge, wohi kaam hai. aur bhagavat bhakti prem hai. "aashlish ya va pada rataam pinashtu maam . . ." bhagvan bolte hain aap kis tarah se vyavahar kare ki aap hi hamara pran ho. Ek lampat purush apni stree se theek se vyavahar nahi karta hai. Stree bolti hai aap jaisa vyavahar kijiye, main to apko kyun chod ke jaoon. Ye prem hai. (All lust. That means that they desire liberation. That is lust. They do not think about how to make others happy. A yogi wants to know how to achieve siddhi, make magic and many people will come to me—that is his work. Whereas devotion to God is love. "Aashlish va pada ratam pinashtu mam . . ." God says how you act in such a way that He is our life and soul. One debauchee does not behave properly with his wife. The wife says it is okay you behave improperly with me but I will not leave you. This is love.)

Indian man (1): This is prema.

Prabhupāda: Aap nahi karenge to acch divorce kar do, ho gaya. (If you don't bother then divorce her, finish.) This picture has appealed to me, this picture, "Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhārāṇī. Push Her. Bhagvan chahte bhi ye hain "sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam", hamare . . . (God wants this, "Sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam." Our . . .) This is prema, in the beginning of. Wo chance hai bhakti ka, usko sikhaya jata hai dekho ye bhagvan ka accha murti hai, isko sajao apna haath se, kuch dress banao, phool-mala banao "sri vigrahara dhana nitya nana" rozana sri vigraha ka aradhana karo. anek prakar se saja karke, bhog laga karke " tan mandir marjanadau" bhagvan ka mandir jo hai khoob acchi tarah se saaf-sutara karo. sabhi koi kar sakta hai, isme koi education nahi hai, sikhane ka zaroorat hai. Sabere utho, bhagvan ko mangalarti karo aur . . . saaf karo, phir sajao, phir bhagvan ko khoob acchi tarah se bhog lagao, din bhar. (That is the chance for devotion, he has taught that, "See, this is a beautiful Deity of the Lord, decorate it with your hands, make some dress, make garlands, "Srivigraharah dhan nitya nana." Do worship of the Lord daily by decorating it nicely, by offering varieties of foodstuffs. "Tan mandir marjanadau". Clean the temple of the Lord nicely, everyone can do it. There is no education for it, he has to be taught to rise early in the morning and perform mangalarati to the Lordships and . . . clean it, decorate it and then offer nice foodstuffs to the Lord. The whole day he be engrossed in serving the Lord.)

Indian man: Subah se shaam tak ye . . . ke jo seva hai na uska . . . mangalarti karo, bhog lagao, snan karao, shringar karo. Sara kaam usme lagao, seva me . . . (From morning until evening this . . . the service . . . perform mangal arati, offer foodstuff, bathe the Lord, decorate the Lord, offer all your services to Him.)

Prabhupada: To ye sravanam kirtanam. Arcanam. This is called arcanam. Arcanam. Arcā-mūrti-sevā. Bhagvan hamara seva grahn karne ke liye ye arca avatar ko kar diye hain. Ye murkha log socte hain patthar pujata hai, bada vidwan. (indistinct) bade-bade acharya log sab bade-bade mandir saaf kiye hain patthar pujne ke liye, ye moorkha log hain. Koi bolt hai mandir me jaane ka kya zaroorat hai, bhagvan sab jagah me hain. agar bhagvan sab jagah me hain to mandir me kyon hain. Unka kehna hai bhagvan sab jagah me hain kewal mandir me nahi itna bada murkha hai. hai to bhagvan sab jagah "andantarastha paramanu chayantarastham" wo to theek hai baki wo doosra hai, abhi hua nahi usko mandir... usko acche tarah se sajao, aise puja karo, aise mandir ko saaf-suthra karo, utsav manao, khoob prasad khao, yehi hamara bhartiya paddati hai. abhi chahe jagannath mandir me jaiye, chappan prakar bhog... aur jitna aadmi jaye sabko prasad milta hai bulki kharidna padta hai, 10000 hazaar aadmi log jate hain, jab chahe prasad dal-bhaat, sabzi, mishti sab kuch. Ye hamara mandir ka paddati hai. (So this "Sravanam kirtanam arcanam." The service of the Deity in the temple. The Lord has come in the arca form in the temple to accept our service. These fools think that we are worshiping some stone, great scholars . . . (indistinct) . . . all great spiritual masters have cleaned the temples of the Lord. These fools worship the stone. Some people say: "What is the need to go to the temple? God is everywhere, not only in the temple." Such a great fool. God is everywhere no doubt, "Andantarastha paramanu chayantarastham." That is okay but it is different. Decorate the Deity nicely, worship like this, clean the temple like this. Plan festivals, honor lots of prasadam—this is only our Indian tradition. Now you may go to the Jagannatha temple. There are 56 types of offerings to the Lord. And everyone gets to honor prasadam, in fact they need to buy it. 10,000 people come on a daily basis and have prasadam. Whenever you want they give prasadam: dal, rice, curries, sweets, everything. This is the tradition of our temples.)

yuktasya bhaktāṁś ca niyuñjato 'pi
vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam
(Śrī Śrī-gurv-aṣṭaka 3)

Ye guru ka kaam hai. usko sikhana, khoob aradhan karo sri vigrha ka. mandir sab samay bharpur rehta hai, bhog-raag-archan, saaf-sutra, kirtan "sravan kirtanam vishnu smaranam". ye sab introduce kijiye aapke mandir me, sab samay, evening lecture, "kirtaniya sada Hari". (This is the work of the teacher or master. To teach, do a lot of worship for the Lord. The temple is always crowded, offerings, kirtans, worship—clean the temple, "Sravanam kirtanam vishnu smaranam." Introduce all these activities in the temple all the time, evening lecture, "Kirtaniya sada hari.")

Indian man: Lekin hamare yahan daftar jaane wale hain, apn business karne wale. (But there are people here who go for work, people doing business.)

Prabhupada: Nahi sab to nahi, kuch to, sab to daftar jaane wale nahin hain, brahman ko daftar jaane ka zaroorat kya hai. Daftar jata hai sudra. "(verse) jo doosre ka naukari karke pet chalata hai wo to sudra hai. Shastra ko dekhiyega, wo to sudra ka kaam nahi hai, ye to brahman ka kaam hai. isliye brahman ko arca vigraha hai. Wo bhi agar tankha leta hai to sudra ho gaya. (Not everyone, some of them. Everyone does not go to the office, what is the need for brahmans to go to the office? A sudra goes to the office. (verse) One who serves others and maintains himself is a sudra. See the scriptures, that is not the work of sudra, this is the work of a brahmana. That is why Brahmin has been given arca vigraha. If he also takes a salary then he is also a sudra.)

Indian man: Wo to mandir me cadava aa jata hai to usse kaam chala lo. (He maintains himself with the money which has been offered in the donation box.)

Prabhupada: Usko kaam chalane ka . . . practical dekh lijiye. hamara sara duniya me 120 mandir hai. to kam-se-kam roz 10000 aadmi ko prasad milta hai, humko kuch . . . thank you very much. Aap koi bhi mandir me jaiye, sab vilayat me jo mandir hai, vilayati jo sab jaate hain, sab bolte hain aisa puja-paath, aisa sundar mandir hum kahin nahi dekhe hain. (He has to maintain . . . see it practically. We have 120 temples throughout the world. So on a daily basis 10,000 people get prasadam, we don't get anything . . . you go to the temple sometimes, the temples which are there in foreign countries—the foreigners visit the temples, everyone says that such worship and such beautiful temples we have not seen anywhere else. )

Indian man: Vrindavan me bhi bada accha hota hai. hum darshan kiye hain. (In Vrindavan also, the worship goes on very nicely, I have seen the Lordships.)

Prabhupada: To aaplog ki kripa se amara koi... wo to bhagvan sab chuta deta hai. Ye to bhgavan ka kaam hai. main to itna hi prarthna karta hoon ki hum to pardesh . . . se kaam chala . . . jahan tak sikha diya, baki aap sikha dijiye. (So by your mercy our . . . God makes us give up everything. This is the duty of God. I pray only this much, that in this foreign land . . . we can manage . . . we have taught, the rest you teach them.)

Indian man: Aapka aashirwad hoga to seekh jayenge. (If your blessings are there, then they will learn.)

Prabhupada: . . . unko deeksha de dete hain, sikha dete hain, phir bhagvan isko chala denge. Wo Australia me Sydney, mandir sthapan kiya. To jab hum aa rahe the bhagvan se yehi prarthana kiya ki bhagvan aapko ye mleccha-yavan ke paas chod rahe hain, aap inko seekha dijiye. Ab hum kya kar sakte hain. So next time you are here, bada sundar hai. (We initiate them, teach them—then God will take care of everything. In Australia—Sydney, we established a temple, then when I was coming I prayed to God that, "God I am leaving you in the hands of these dog eaters and drug addicts—you please train them, now what can I do?")

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have a photograph. Should I bring it? Sydney.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Itna sundar hai . . . "tesam satata yuktanam bhajatam priti purvakam". Yadi koi priti purvak bhagvan ke seva karne ko chahta hai to wo buddhi de dega, beta aisa kar, aisa kar. Abhi humlog keh diya ki bhagvan nirakar, kuch bolta nahi, kuch jaanta nahi . . . Bhagvan bolta hai mai "buddhi yogam dadami" . . . boliye jo nirakar hai wo bol sakta hai. To ye sab. Jo samajhta hai patthar, uske liye patthar, aur jo samajhta hai sab bhagvan . . . usse baat karo. ye sab uplabdh hota hai bhakti se " bhaktya mam abhijanati" ye jo bhagvan bol rahe hain wo kisko samajh me aayega. (indistinct). "bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas chasmi tattvatah". (It is so beautiful . . . "Tesam satata yuktanam bhajatam priti purvakam." If someone wants to serve God with love, then he will award intelligence—son do like this, do like this. Now we have been told that God is formless, he does not speak, does not know anything . . . God speaks "Buddhi yogam dadami" . . . now tell me if God is formless, then can He speak—then all these people who consider Him to be a stone—for them He is stone and for one who understands He is the all in all . . . talk to Him. All this can be obtained by devotion "Bhaktya ma abhijanati yavan yas chasmi tattvatah.")

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All we had was this Melbourne photo. We don't have the Sydney . . . we have the Melbourne Deities. Still, it's nice.

Prabhupāda: Melbourne and Sydney, white.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I knew it was Australia.

Prabhupāda: Ye hamare Australia ka ek mandir hai. Melbourne. abhi wo log sweekar karte hain A section of Americans, they are Hindus, India Americans. Isiliye to aaplog se nivedan kar raha hoon. ye movement acchi tarah se chalaiye "pranair arthaih dhiya vacah" to sab duniya hindu ho jayega. Wo to aaplog nahi karenge. Hindu ye sabhya koi shastra me hai nahi. Ye musalman ka diya hua hai naam. asal me hamara . . . wo vedic, wo varnashram. Varnashram sab jagah me chalo kiya ja sakta hai. (This is the picture of one of our temples in Australia—Melbourne. Now the people accept. That is why I am requesting you all, carry on this movement nicely ""Pranair arthaih dhiya vacah", then the entire world will become Hindus. That you people will not do. Hindu, this culture is not there in any of the scriptures, this was given by the Muslims, the name Hindu. Actually our . . . that vedic, those four divisions of the society based on duties, it is there everywhere—it can be done.)

Indian man: Gita me varno ka to jikr hai pur ashram ka jikr nahi hai. (In the Gītā there is mention of the divisions but there is no mention of the four stages of life, the ashrams.)

Prabhupada: Yes, ashram hai. "kim punah brahmanah . . ." wo to asram hai. Brahman, Kshatriya, Viashya, ab vaishya naam aaya " mam hi parth vyapshritya . . ." sab cheez hai. "chatur varnyam maya shrishtam" varna pehle, aage varna phir ashram. Ab jab varna sab khatam ho gaya pir ashram ka kya zaroorat hai. Brahman, kshartiya unko chahiye brahmachari ashram. brahaman ke liye 4 ashram, Kshatriya ke liye 3 ashram, vaishya ke liye 2 ashram aur shudra ke liye 1 ashram. Brahman kahan hai . . . sama,dama, titikshava, arjava, jjnanam, vigyanam, astikyam, . . . baki school, college khola jaye ki aaiye apko hum brahman banayenge aur brahman me kya seekhna padega sama, dama, titiksha, man ko control karo, indriya ko control karo, titiksha, sahansheel, aur gyan prapt karo, hasega, bolta hai ye sab karne se pet chalega, koi aayega nahi. Technology sikhao, gyan milega sharab peene ka "kalau sudra sambhava". Brahman hone ko koi chahta hai, kya bolta hai, mind control karne padega, jhoot nahi bolna padega (indistinct). Abhi mai do paise ka sutli wo dwijat ka nishan "dwijatvam sutra eva hi" "dampatti rati me" uska sampark tab tak rahega sex ka. Aur ye bhi likha hai "lavanyam kesh dharanam" kaliyug me bada-bada kesh dharan karne se wo samjhega hum bada sundar hai. (Yes, the stages or ashrams are mentioned. "Kim punah brahmanah . . ." That is an ashram. Brahmana, Ksatriya, Vaisya, now the name vaisya has come "Mam hi parth vyapashritya . . ." everything is mentioned in the Gita. "Chatur varnyam maya shrishtam." First comes the divisions, then the ashrams. Now when the varnas are no longer existing, then what is the use of an ashram? The brahmins and ksatriyas need the brahmachari ashram. For the brahmins there are 4 ashrams—for the ksatriyas there are three ashrams, for the vaisyas there are two ashrams, for the sudras there is one ashram. Where is a brahmin? . . . "Sama, dama, titiksava, arjavam, gyanam, vignyanam, astikyam". So open schools and colleges that will teach you to become brahmin and what will be taught there are the qualities sama, dama, titiksava—control the mind, control the senses—titiksa, tolerance and acquire knowledge. People will laugh. They will say by doing all this, how can we sustain? No one will come. Teach the technology, you will get knowledge of how to drink wine ":alau sudra sambhava." No one wants to become brahmana and what does he say? We must control the mind, we must not tell lies . . . (indistinct) . . . now I will bring two paisa brahmin thread, it is the sign of "Dvijatvam sutra eva hi" in the "Dampatti rati me" until what point of time will his contact be there? That of sex. And this is also mentioned: "Lavanyam kesh dharanam." In the Kali-yuga they feel that by keeping long hair, one will look very beautiful.) 5000 hazaar varsh pehle ye sab likha hai, jitna hai sab bada-bada, lamba-lamba. Aur zabardasti bolta hai sudra hai, chamar hai , jo hai . . . usko kshatriya hona ka seekhne ka koi zaroorat nahi hai. Government hoga daku, looto. (verse) ek to anavrishti, pani theek nahi padta hai aur durbhiksha, rajnaitik, aur government ko . . . aadmi itna pareshan ho gaya hai. sab chod-chadke . . . (It is all mentioned 5,000 years back, whatever it is, it is all very big, very long and he forcibly says that the person is untouchable, a person doing menial jobs—whatever he is . . . there is no need to teach him to be a ksatriya. The government will be a dacoit, plundering the people. (verse) there is anavrishti, there is no proper rainfall and famine, politics and the government . . . man is so troubled. Leave everything and go away . . .)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's about 6:30 now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Have saṅkīrtana.

Indian man (2): Maharaj ek aisa rumour chala tha hal hi me ki American government ne kuch badha dalni shuru ki hai prachar me. (Mahārāja, in the recent past there was a rumor that the American government had started putting a big hurdle for the preaching.)

Prabhupāda: Kaun, government? kabhi nahi. balki government judgement diya hai hamare favour me. (Who, the government? Never, in fact the government has given a judgment in our favor.)

Indian man (2): Kal charcha ho rahi thi, koi baat nahi. is judgment ke upar charcha hui thi lekin mujhe ye pata nahi tha kahe ka judgement. (Yesterday there was a discussion going on. The discussion was going on about this but I was not aware that the judgment was made for this.)

Prabhupada: Aap thoda isko translation kar dijiye hindi me. (Please translate this into Hindi.)

Indian man (2): You haven't got a copy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have the original, not a copy.

Prabhupāda: You can give him this.

Indian man (2): If I . . . if I could have access to it?

Prabhupāda: He's done.

Indian man (2): Yes, you can safely believe. Maharaj ji ye America ka judgement hai? Charcha to kal chali thi . . . (Mahārāja is this the judgment given in America? There was a discussion yesterday but I couldn't follow what the matter was . . .) I thought it was . . .

Prabhupāda: Usme bahut se legal terms hain, wo to aap hi log se ho sakta hai translation. kaun mila, koi lawyer. (There are a lot of legal terms in that, only you people can do the translation. Who did you get as a lawyer?)

Indian man (1): We should appreciate the impartial judgement. He says that he passed his M.A . . . he passed his M.A.

Prabhupāda: (Ek roz me hi judgement de diya. (They gave the judgment in only one day.)

Indian man (1): And there he told it's all right to faith . . .

Indian man (2): Faith.

Indian man (1): Faith.

Indian man (2): Faith, yes, yes.

Indian man (1): Not Christianity or not Hinduism. Anything you like.

Prabhupāda: Not anything.

Indian man (1): Not anything?

Prabhupāda: Religion.

Indian man (2): Religion.

Prabhupāda: Not anything.

Indian man (2): Everyone has right to follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Every man has right to follow any, mane, established religion. And they have accepted this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is established religion in India for many thousands of years.

Indian man (2): Only there should be no fault.

Prabhupāda: There is no force. There is no force. Everyone is joining voluntarily. Ab force kar ke aap kahan tak, force se kuch kaam hoga. (Now where can you force, has anything been achieved with force?)

Indian man: Maine kaha Maharaj wo objection kisne diya, government ne ya . . . (I am saying Maharaja was the objection raised by the government or . . .)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we hold kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (kīrtana begins) (end)