770320 - Conversation - Mayapur

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770320R1-MAYAPUR - March 20, 1977 - 88:29 Minutes

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . John Lennon. (Govindam record playing in background)

Prabhupāda: At that time I used to come to Conway Hall. It took at least one hour. Then they inquired. So in that car I was singing with this tune, govindam ādi-puruṣam. So they adjusted this word, George, Mukunda and . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yamunā.

Prabhupāda: And took up this tune. I was repeating. They were chanting within the car while coming from Conway Hall. That is intelligence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not to do anything new, simply to explain in one's own way.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: This song was favorite to me since very, very long time. (pause) This album was very popular in Europe and America.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. It was not quite as popular as the first record, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." That was . . .

Prabhupāda: Which I sung.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. And also the "Hare Kṛṣṇa" which they sung, you remember, in London. That was very popular. Even in Communist countries it was popular.

Jayapatākā: There was a headline in the newspaper, "Hare Kṛṣṇa rock . . ." (break) . . . and put this in our exhibit. That will go a long way for making the people more Kṛṣṇa conscious. They really . . . the only thing . . .

Prabhupāda: You give your mother. She can utilize it. She's very intelligent girl. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Sit down. I am little better today. Sometimes for the last . . . how many days? I am . . . (break) . . . think great. I told you this must have been published.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I read it, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Washington . . ."

Prabhupāda: You can get this light on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Washington, March 18th. The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement was called a 'bona fide religion' yesterday by the New York high-court justice who threw out two charges against the officials of the movement of 'illegal imprisonment' and 'attempted extortion.' A charge had been preferred by an angry parent that his son, as well as another disciple, had been held by the movement illegally and that they had been brainwashed. 'The entire and basic issue before the court,' said the Justice in dismissing the charges, 'is whether or not the two alleged victims in this case and the defendants will be allowed to practice the religion of their choice, and this must be answered with a resounding affirmative.' Said Mr. Justice John J. Lee, 'The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is a bona fide religion with roots in India that go back thousands of years. It behooved Merrilee Kreshower and Edward Shapiro to follow the tenets of that faith, and their inalienable right to do so will not be trampled upon.' " This is all quote. " 'The separation of Church and State must be maintained. We are and must remain a nation of laws, not of men. The presentment and indictment by the Grand Jury was in direct and blatant violation of the defendants' Constitutional rights.' The Justice said that it appeared to the court that, 'The people rest their case on an erroneous minor premise to arrive at a fallacious conclusion. The record is devoid of one specific allegation of a misrepresentation or any act of deception on the part of any defendant.' The Justice said, 'The freedom of religion is not to be abridged because it is unconventional in its beliefs and practices or because it is approved or disapproved by the mainstream of society or more conventional religions. Without this proliferation and freedom to follow the dictates of one's own conscience in this search for the approach to God, the freedom of religion will be a meaningless right as provided for in the Constitution. Any attempt, be it circuitous, direct, well-intentioned or not, presents a clear and present danger to this most fundamental basis and eternally needed right of our citizens—freedom of religion.' "

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has been under pressure from various groups, and this judgment is expected to stop some of the harassment to which it has been subjected in recent months."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Very good.

Prabhupāda: So you purchase some copies.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. This is yesterday's Times of India from Bombay. When we get to Bombay we'll go to their office. We can buy back issues, I think. I don't know . . . I'll find out who . . . Abhirāma gave me this. "Published from Bombay, Delhi and Ahmedabad."

Prabhupāda: Now we have got a sound position.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe it's in some other . . . I have the Sunday Statesman.

Prabhupāda: In the first page they have given, eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. First page of Times of India.

Prabhupāda: And big heading?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement is Bona Fide Religion." (laughs) You couldn't pay for an advertisement this good.

Prabhupāda: So my mission is now successful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: In 1965 I went there, and this is now recognized after ten years ago. Ten years? Twelve years, eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twelve years.

Prabhupāda: Loitering in the street. Nobody cared for me. Alone carrying the books. Now organize Bombay as our headquarter, New York as sub-office. Or headquarter in America.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about Los Angeles?

Prabhupāda: Anywhere. I told you that it must have been published.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You can see that the Bombay newspaper is better than these Calcutta papers.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because the Calcutta paper has not yet carried it. It may be that Times of India has a relationship with some . . . New York Times.

Prabhupāda: It is as good as The Statesman.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's actually more prominent than The Statesman, I think. Yeah. There's no mention. There's no mention in these other papers.

Prabhupāda: So you are also coming to Bombay?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'm also thinking to go to Delhi to make that inner pass for possible visit to Manipur.

Prabhupāda: That may be suspended for the time.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh. So shall I . . .?

Prabhupāda: We have to do so many things always.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But at the same time traveling may not be so . . .

Prabhupāda: Fruitful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Srila Prabhupāda's health. It may not be so wise in this state.

Prabhupāda: If Manipur is prepared to help me . . . (aside) What is this? The same tablet? No.

Hari-śauri: A different tablet.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've gotten a week's supply of these other tablets. I got the prescription filled.

Prabhupāda: Keep it here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That has given me great relief.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Swelling is reduced, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know. But internally I am feeling relief.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Swelling here?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. His feet.

Prabhupāda: Not very much, but there is.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not so much. I think that pill works for swelling. The swelling is due to urine, not . . .

Prabhupāda: So now we have to push on this movement (heavy coughing) as the bona fide religion, but the most scientific, not dogmas. That we have to do.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday I made a tour of Manipur to see a possible location for a temple, and I saw a nice place.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's just near the present temple of Govinda that I was talking and it is a small forest full of monkeys, and they are so friendly.

Prabhupāda: Monkeys are very friendly.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. They're much more friendly than monkeys in Vṛndāvana. (laughing) I have seen that many, very healthy. There's some sort of welcome, people coming. There are many. That place is some sort of a central place of Imphala. It's a very . . . spiritually a very conducive area. Many kinds of birds, and it's very natural surroundings. So I went with two of our Life Members, and they are thinking that maybe we can approach the government so that we can get the land from Manipur government, and then we can construct a temple.

Prabhupāda: That's good idea. Yes. So now organize things. My presence or no presence, we have got now a position. We have to push on movement very cautiously.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu was mentioning that he met Upendra.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Where?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the airport, Calcutta airport. He arrived last night, but somehow his luggage was left in Bombay airport. So the luggage is coming tonight at seven o'clock for Bombay-Calcutta flight, and he told me that he's coming after, a taxi. So he'll be arriving about nine o'clock tonight.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He has received that telegram.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: He is coming from Hawaii?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He went all the way back to Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we're doing all right.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? He's enthusiastic.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He's very anxious. I was even thinking of coming together, but I came by train from Calcutta, from Dum Dum station. But he told me that he has nothing. All the clothings and everything in that luggage. So he'll come.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. He shall come.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have this letter written by him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Dear Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, we received your telegram and acted immediately after confirming with Rāmeśvara." This is from Upendra.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Unfortunately, after seven-hour stopover in Tokyo, they lost my reservations on my connecting flight. That, coupled with the fact that after arriving last night I find they've sent my belongings to Bombay, so I am waiting until the evening for the flight from Bombay when I get my trunk. I shall try to hire a taxi directly to Māyāpur. I would come now, but I have absolutely no personal clothes or anything. Please tell Prabhupāda that I am due this evening. If not, then I shall ask the Calcutta devotees to care for my luggage and I'll proceed immediately."

Prabhupāda: No, there is no need of coming. We are going.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It's hard to reach him. He's . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the airport.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) . . . stationed in the Calcutta airport.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have quite a big entourage now.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Scientist . . .

Prabhupāda: But our most auspicious sign is this, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is bona fide religion."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is preceding your arrival in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's announcing your coming, practically. Very prominent.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I found Bombay very good scope.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Organize Bombay as the center of.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially when our that big hall is finished, we can hold several lectures . . .

Prabhupāda: Daily. At least weekly twice. Sunday, Monday, we shall hold lectures and call all scholarly people to understand. Make it nicely.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh. We went a few days ago to Calcutta University to see the vice-chancellor. Four of us went—the other two scientists and Ravīndra Svarūpa—and we talked with the inspector of schools, who came to visit here in Māyāpur about two months ago, and we discussed the possibility of getting affiliated in the Calcutta University, of giving some Ph.D. degrees in our philosophy. He indicated some ideas that it is possible, but he suggested that we must have a very good library.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. They already said that two years ago.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They want us to buy so many nonsense books.

Prabhupāda: And nobody reads.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's no doubt it would be a big help if we could give Ph.D.'s. I mean, that would est . . .

Prabhupāda: Not . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wouldn't it establish? Give some prestige?

Prabhupāda: Do you think it will be a . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are also talking about some sort of exchange program, students coming from . . .

Prabhupāda: Bon Mahārāja is giving Ph.D. Nobody cares for it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's . . .

Prabhupāda: And nobody comes to take the Ph.D. These are all superficial.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have to see. It's not immediately necessary.

Prabhupāda: No. So you are coming from, now? Manipur.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm coming from Manipur. I made several preaching engagements in the law college, the colleges and universities in Manipur also.

Prabhupāda: So it was all successful?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. They are very anxious to hear about the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That is good.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially in law college. The title is very appropriate. We say: "The Laws of Nature." In the law college we speak about the laws of nature and the fundamental principles of knowledge from not only the scientific angle.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And it's quite appropriate. The theme is . . .

Prabhupāda: This is verse of Bhagavad-gītā, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). You cannot violate the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You are strictly under the obligation, or laws of nature. Why you are talking nonsense? This should be . . . and under the strict laws of nature—you are eternal—simply you are suffering while transforming this body or transmigrating your soul over . . . and it is so risky that today you are human being; tomorrow you may be a dog, a tree. Then your life is spoiled. Today you have got so nice intelligence to deliver you from the clutches of the laws of nature, and tomorrow you may not be able. Then you are lost in the laws of nature. This is your position. So at least this institution must be there. People may take little advantage of it. If he begins, that is also great guarantee that he gets another chance, another chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Eh? Yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41). Why this chance should not be given to the human society? What is this nonsense dog dancing, election, and bribing, stealing and unnecessarily struggle? What they'll do? They are all nothing, all of these. What will be gained by this?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very effective. We are just about ready to print something in Bombay. Our two other are in Bombay now, the two other scientists.

Prabhupāda: Let us go there and organize. At least for one month we shall remain there. Let us organize.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of the senior devotees are still there. They've gone from here to Vṛndāvana, and now they're in Bombay, and they're waiting for your coming.

Prabhupāda: I am therefore going. In spite of my so much inconveniences, I am going there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: At the end we try to . . . even if we talk, we're trying to bring the . . . that vāsudeva-paraṁ jñānam . . .

Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva-parā vedā, vāsudeva-parā . . . vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā (BG 7.19). This is wanted. At least, one must know. Why they should be kept in darkness? What is this civilization? They have got light. The knowledge is there. They can be educated. And unnecessarily they are kept into darkness. Is that civilization? Others may do it. They have no knowledge. Why India? India should now stand up—"Stop this nonsense." We have got this culture. That is India's mission. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma (CC Adi 9.41). India cannot tolerate this. Do you follow? When . . . even it is not possible to introduce this movement in a larger scale, there is no harm. Anyone who takes it, he is happy. It is very difficult. We are not expected that manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3), everyone will be able to do it. But the ideal should be there. And it is India's duty to keep this ideal, Indian people's duty, government's duty. That will keep India's prestige in the highest level. Make propaganda like that. Why India should be lowered down unnecessarily while we have got so much stock of knowledge, scientific knowledge? Am I right?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why? It doesn't matter only a few persons may take, but the ideal must be there. And preach all over the world. For me it will be difficult to move everywhere, but so long my life is there, I'll give you hint. You develop it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So far in Manipur, most people in the educated class, they all accept. They also want . . .

Prabhupāda: Then that will be very nice. I want to have a small Vaiṣṇava state—varṇāśrama, ideal.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is possible in Manipur.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I thought it. Ideal Vaiṣṇava state. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they are doing very nicely, and people will be surprised, "Oh." There is no question of hatred. It is division for proper discharge of duty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I saw in the airport, the policemen, they have this tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Tilaka.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the policemen, they are dressed, but they have tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Manipur? Manipur?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Manipur. And when we go, they always give respect. Though I am nobody, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Tilaka.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. The policemen wear tilaka. There is justice, for sure.

Prabhupāda: So immediately do it. I shall go. If there is such possibility . . . let us have a small ideal state. If respectable gentlemen take it, oh, it will be great success, an ideal state throughout the whole world, Vaiṣṇava state.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Example. You can show that example.

Prabhupāda: Show their policemen, all with tilaka, and marching, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they chant there?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They have . . .

Prabhupāda: We shall train them. Military march Hare Kṛṣṇa, Manipur. Slogan: "Jaya Rādhe! Jaya Kṛṣṇa! Jaya Babhruvāhana! Jaya Arjuna!" And then let us go. We shall organize Bombay headquarter, Manipur Vaiṣṇava state, send missionary all over the world, bona fide, scientific system of religion, ideal character. Ideal character. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). That we have to show. "Here is this sum total of all good qualities." That we have to show. We haven't got to go anywhere. Knowledge, good quality, happiness, advancement of life—everything complete. So let us go to Manipur. Arrange for that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So should we arrange for this April 5th, 4th, around that time, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: April 5th. No harm. We are . . . Kodaikanal, we wanted to go by the end of the . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wanted to go . . . Bombay paṇḍāl ends about the 30th.

Prabhupāda: Thirtieth.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that means there's still about another week until the 5th. March has thirty-one days. So there'll still be another week. And then there's a week in between Bombay and Kodaikanal. Kodaikanal by 15th.

Prabhupāda: Fifteenth or later on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That can be later. At least by 15th, 20th, like that.

Prabhupāda: So let us go, our whole party.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to stay in Bombay, stay until the . . . is there any date until?

Prabhupāda: I don't want to stay anywhere. I want work.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there's work everywhere. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Staying, I have stayed big, big palaces, big, big cities. That is now complete. I have no other desire.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How long do you want to work in Bombay? I mean, till . . .

Prabhupāda: So long there is work. There is no end of it. Our Bombay should be organized. Work is our life. There is no question of "How long?" As long as possible. Kṛṣṇa giving us good opportunities. Now we should take it seriously. It is not joke. "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is bona fide religion."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that will be a . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very important.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, especially in the United States.

Prabhupāda: New York high-court decision.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very important. This man is senior man, too, in the courts. Very old, conservative.

Prabhupāda: But I think he's sincere.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, he's God-believing. This statement that he makes at the end, this statement that "Any attempt, be it circuitous, direct, well-intentioned or not, presents a clear and present danger to this most fundamental basis and eternally needed right of our citizens." "Eternally needed right." Freedom of religion.

Prabhupāda: So we should send him a letter of congratulations. "May God bless you for such right judgment. Be . . . live long life to serve God." Like that, make a nice . . . that is our mission.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Very honest and sincere people normally appreciate our movement. Only those who are envious and those . . .

Prabhupāda: Envious we don't care for. We don't mind. Never care for them. I didn't care anyone, any time, even my Godbrothers. Neither I care just now. I'll go on with my . . . why? We are doing our duty, that's all, under higher authoritative order. Have no fear. It is not personal gratification. So arrange for Manipur. We shall go. Let us go.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I'll go to Delhi tomorrow and . . .

Prabhupāda: Go.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . arrange with the Home Minister. Minister of Home has to give the permit.

Prabhupāda: And then come back to Bombay?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Then I'm coming to Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Now work very strenuously. You are all young men, and somehow or other, dead horse, you have given life. Otherwise the last fortnight I was thinking I am dead now. I was thinking like that, "Now life is finished." Life can be finished at any time. That is not wonderful. To live, that is wonderful. If my life is finished, that is not wonderful. Nobody will lament. "Oh, he was old man, eighty-two years old." But if I can live for some days more, then that is wonderful. If I die, that is not wonderful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa is wonderful.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is wonderful always.

Bhavānanda: And you are wonderful.

Prabhupāda: I am wonderful so long I serve Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise useless; no value. If I can serve Kṛṣṇa, then I am wonderful—or, certainly. We don't want to become cheap wonderful. We want to become really wonderful by serving Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission. Kṛṣṇa is wonderful undoubtedly. Who can become more wonderful than Kṛṣṇa? Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Always remember, Kṛṣṇa is wonderful. Don't take Kṛṣṇa very slightly, like one of you. That is foolishness. Kṛṣṇa is wonderful, always. He's the most wonderful person, and He can . . . does . . . he can do anything wonderful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He can also give wonderful guru.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). It is Kṛṣṇa's wonderful mercy that one can get guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya. Don't forget for a moment, that Kṛṣṇa is not insignificant. He's always the most wonderful. He can do anything, whatever He likes. They have no such belief. They have no such idea. They are different, "We believe in this." Not believe. This is a fact! You believe or not believe, who cares for you? Fact is fact. So arrange. We shall go. (break) ". . . Kṛṣṇa is wonderful," that makes one perfect. You know that story? The cobbler and Nārada Muni? Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The cobbler believed, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is wonderful." And Nārada Muni immediately certified, "Yes, your salvation this life guaranteed." The cobbler has his conviction, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is wonderful. Kṛṣṇa can do anything. Kṛṣṇa can draw an elephant through the hole of a needle. Why not? It's possible." That faith made him perfect. If Kṛṣṇa is not wonderful, is it possible for me to do all these things? What I am?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes people ask whether I have seen anything very powerful in Śrīla Prabhupāda. I sometimes answer, saying that when Śrīla Prabhupāda came to the United States, all the foreign disciples, all the Americans, they all, because of their social structure, all eating all kinds of things, but they all now pure Vaiṣṇavas. So it is the greatest wonder that one can . . . (indistinct) . . . so they become very silent, just hearing the answer, seeing that there is something very powerful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all they admitted in that Voice that, "We thought God is dead. Here Swāmījī has brought." They admitted like that. (break) . . . wife, she is also coming from very respectable family. Her father, grandfather all . . . Doctor had beginning . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Allahabad. Dr. Ghosh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Director of . . . (break) So arrange for that. (break) . . . part of the country where there is vigorous malaria.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he is director.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were also traveling.

Prabhupāda: No, I was not traveling. The wife was traveling.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His wife?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore doctor became fortunate. He got very good wife.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you were most fortunate.

Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) I think so.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your wife wasn't so good.

Prabhupāda: Because she was always against Kṛṣṇa . . . my father said like that, that "You are so fortunate that you don't like your wife. Don't try to marry again."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: "You are fortunate." I took it seriously. "People try to give up the company of wife with great difficulty. You have natural tendency."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't seem like your sons are very . . . except for Vrindavan. None of the others come.

Prabhupāda: They are like mother.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I met that Madan-Mohan.

Prabhupāda: Mathura.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mathura-Mohan. Whew! Smoking.

Prabhupāda: All spoiled. Mother has spoiled. Everyone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about this Vrindavan? He's . . .

Prabhupāda: He's half-spoiled.

Hari-śauri: Half-spoiled.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is he the oldest son?

Prabhupāda: He was little crazy. Might have gone away from home. Very intelligent boy he was. His mother made him crazy. Very . . . he was standing first in school. Very intelligent. She spoiled the whole family life. It was good for . . . for my youngest daughter I selected one very nice boy, rich man. She did not give. She wanted to keep her as her assistant, and she's not married.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even now. How old? She must be forty-five years old.

Prabhupāda: Not so much. Older than Vrindavan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So by forty . . . she must be thirty-five.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thirty-five. Most irresponsible and lethargically.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very selfish to keep one's daughter not married.

Prabhupāda: But still, all the children are addicted to the mother. She does not do anything. I used to . . . like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should be addicted to you now.

Prabhupāda: They all bokā, rejected. Let them become happy in their own way. (break) But because I talk with everyone, they are . . . (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What will be the difference between the Vṛndāvana gurukula and this gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Nothing. The same thing. (break) . . . civilized man. "Beware of Dog." "Keep aloof, private place."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fearful.

Prabhupāda: And just see the result. Cannot believe in faith. Human being. And dogs are so trained . . . you have not seen the dog; it is within the house. You're passing, they'll bark, unnaturally disturbing. You cannot peacefully walk on the street.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes even they attack people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not like people should walk on the street.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. And neither you can, because their stool is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Strewn all over.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And if you tell them to walk . . . curb the dog, they get very angry, "Oh, you have insulted me." They demand that you respect their dog.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you ask him take care of his dog, he feels insulted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember in the park? In Central Park we were walking. That woman was very angry.

Prabhupāda: Most uncivilized. So this will finish. This will not stay. It is already being finished by this Communist country. Only hope is this, if they want to be saved.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many people are beginning to realize the important part that this movement is going to play. A number of our enemies in New York said that this movement is the greatest threat to modern civilization.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of our enemies in that brainwash case, they are starting to say, "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is the greatest threat to our modern civilization."

Prabhupāda: They say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes, they said it. In the newspaper it was reported.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they say: "It is spreading like epidemic." (aside) What is that?

Devotee: Little more? (sound of eating)

Prabhupāda: What is that civilization? Do they think that civilization is correct?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that they are the most advanced civilization ever. This is the topmost yet. Man is becoming more and more evolved, from the ape until now. This is the pinnacle so far.

Prabhupāda: And what you have gained? Criminals, fire brigade, always "dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung," in every big city. And criminality increasing. Do you think it is civilization? Always anxious, and covering yourself by drinking, intoxicated. In New York street you would go out ordinary—hell! Two sides hell.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it has become worse in the last ten years. It is much worse.

Prabhupāda: It must become worse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is not safe now for anyone to walk on the street at night.

Prabhupāda: Night or daylight, it is not even.

Devotee: So many robbers?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, worse than robbers. I was in Central Park when I was a young boy, only five years old . . . (door opens)

Prabhupāda: Who is come? . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a painting that one boy has done here which is not perfectly done, and he wants to get your advice on it.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I cannot give him advice on painting. I have no experience. He should go to the painter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's the boy who did that painting of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa that's outside where your vyāsāsana is. He wants to know how to fix it.

Prabhupāda: Don't waste time like that. If he wants to paint, he should join the painters.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In L.A.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now he's working on painting the walls, front walls.

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. There's already a place where he can go if he wants advice.

Prabhupāda: If he wants to be expert.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Jadurāṇī and Bharadvāja, they are trained up by you.

Prabhupāda: No, there are many other painters.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Muralīdhara.

Prabhupāda: Parīkṣit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Parīkṣit. Muralīdhara is good too.

Prabhupāda: Be a good painter. Don't waste time—your time, my time.

Devotee: (removing dishes) This can be taken?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did this tangerine remove the bad taste? So every day we can give some tangerine.

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . tangerine is good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially if you can give with this medicine, then it will take away the bitter taste. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . pāṇḍu-ratha, Lord Viṣṇu is there. (break) And we are speaking, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), completely opposite. So let them prove that this portion who have improved, it is a happy position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They cannot prove. But they say, "You also cannot prove anything."

Prabhupāda: No, we say that this place is suffering. Therefore we have to leave this, our total exi . . . we don't say: "This place is for suffering, and by material advancement of science we shall improve." We don't say. We totally reject it that, "It is a place of suffering. Why shall I remain here?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their argument will be that, "By illusion, you are thinking there is an alternative world."

Prabhupāda: It may be illusion to you. It is fact to us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "But so it is fact to a lunatic," they'll say: "that he also has his mind thinking something. You are simply dreaming."

Prabhupāda: But we may be dreaming, but factually what you have done? Ours may be dreaming, but yours, factually what you have done? You could not stop birth, death, old age and disease. But I am suffering from this disease. You cannot stop it. I'll die. You cannot stop it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they have no answer for that.

Prabhupāda: Then? But we may be dreaming.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That point they'll press. They'll press that point, that . . . that's what they all think. When I talk to anybody I meet, they think that we are describing some fairy tale, Kṛṣṇaloka.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is your actual fact? (break) When they take it as a serious thing in life, oh, everyone will be happy. Everyone will be . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That hasn't come yet.

Prabhupāda: That has not come. We want to introduce.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More spontaneous.

Prabhupāda: That is sure. Anyone who will take it, he will have the benefit. Such a civilization.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that described as rāgānugā-bhakti?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? No. That is not rāgānugā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean when it's more spontaneous.

Prabhupāda: That is rāgānugā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is vaidhī-bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. It is . . . this is . . . I am speaking from my realization. It is not superficial.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Our platform now is simply on your order we are doing.

Prabhupāda: Even there was no such suffering . . . just like I am suffering now. It is due to so many irregularities. So many. For preaching I have violated so many things. What can be done? As far as possible, I have kept pace.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (chuckling) No one could do what you have done, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: How I can . . . main business is how to . . . gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe. "Let them first of all, somehow or other, yena tena prakāreṇa. Then I shall impose rules and regulations and regulative . . ." He has . . . you have not seen from the very beginning. They have seen. I worked very hard. Two times lecture, cooking, and meeting and so on, so on, writing book, typing. Not a single moment, and still I am not wasting single moment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: I was giving two types daily . . . er, two tapes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember.

Prabhupāda: Two tapes daily regularly, Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. Sometimes Brahmānanda was typing, sometimes Satsvarūpa, sometimes one boy, Neil, he was typing. He was very good typist.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stryadhīśa.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes in San Francisco one girl was typing. I was giving them sufficient work. Hayagrīva was typing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had everyone busy trying to keep up. Even now I see that you're not at all wasting a second. Even in the middle of the night you call . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that, my . . . this is my childhood practice. I do not like to see anything wasted, nor I waste. I have told you many times that on the street I am going and seeing the tap is open. I don't like to see. I stop. Why it should be open?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You taught us like that—go around turning off the lights, things like that.

Prabhupāda: Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra Bose, his father was a go-down clerk in a tanner (indistinct Bengali). So in go-down, dāl go-down, dāl was falling down from the bag. Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra Bose, he was boy, he was taking the dāl and trying to push within the hole. So his father's name was Prasana Bose. His master was a European. He said: "Oh, this boy will be very big man, your son." So he had no idea how to save it, but he was trying to. Dr. Bose personally told me that, "I was trying to push the dāl through the hole within the bag." That is not possible, but he did not want to see . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Waste.

Prabhupāda: Why things should be wasted? Immediately that Mr. Morrison said to Prasana Bose, "Your this child will be . . ." So I had the same tendency. Dr. Bose liked me very much. He found me a prototype boy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than his own sons.

Prabhupāda: Of course, own son is own son, but he liked me very much. He selected.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Above other more qual . . . more senior men.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, selected me. "Someday I shall appoint him manager."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The other people working there couldn't understand that so easily.

Prabhupāda: Three, four men liked me very, very much. One is my father; one is Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra; one my Guru Mahārāja, and . . . who else? One, my maternal uncle, Rakal Chandradhi. He was a very rich man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his name?

Prabhupāda: Rakal Chandradhar. He has got a street. He liked me. He's the only one to take care of his son by marriage.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your mother's brother.

Prabhupāda: Not real, but cousin.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your mother's cousin.

Prabhupāda: My mother is the brother's daughter, and he was the sister daughter. Just like our this nephew. First cousin.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, first . . . that's a close relationship.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So he treated . . . although my mother was first cousin, he treated my mother as younger sister. In that way he liked my father also, myself. That gentleman, and one Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose, and two—one, my own father and my Guru Mahārāja. I knew it. He liked me. He liked me from the very heart. Guru Mahārāja liked me. I know. Yes. By his blessing it is everything has happened. Because I was not worth. What did I . . .? I do not know why he liked. I was not worth. There were so many disciples. And still, he liked me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He could see how pure you were.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. Out of his affection, it is his good will. He can like anyone, any dog, it doesn't matter. But I know he liked me. Anyone, by his choice of free will, he can love any damn thing. It doesn't matter. That is called kṛpā-siddhi. "I like this man. This man must be prominent." That is his will. It doesn't matter on qualification. So all these people, they liked me not on my qualification, but out of affection, out of good will. (laughs) Other, a woman—woman means my mother-in-law; she was woman—out of affection for her daughter, she would sacrifice everything for the . . . so that her daughter may not be unhappy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your mother-in-law. You said that when you took sannyāsa, she could not take it.

Prabhupāda: No, I must admit she was very, very kind. Very, very kind. Although she's woman, but on account of her daughter . . . whatever I'll command, she'll suffer. Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitṟṇām (SB 11.5.41). We become indebted in this way with so many people. Devarṣi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitṟṇāṁ

na kiṅkaro nāyam ṛṇī ca rājan

sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ

gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kartam

(SB 11.5.41)

Prabhupāda: Where is the hot water? That wrapper is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cādar.

Prabhupāda: So this tablet is effective. Just prepare this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, today we'll get more.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you'll go on the roof this morning?

Prabhupāda: I have no objection. (break) Nobody likes. In order to taste the sugar, you have to chew so much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many different potions also throughout the day. One time that kavirāja . . .

Prabhupāda: They say that, "Why should you bother so much? You have to take the sweet. Take sugar."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nobody can go through it. It's such trouble. An ordinary person can't do it. Unless you have a servant, you can't take kavirāja's medicine.

Prabhupāda: Just see. The doctor recommended eight tablets at a time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than once a day.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many times a day?

Prabhupāda: Twice. Eight tablets.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Modern medicine, they would combine all of those in one pill. When you take your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you find it more relaxing and beneficial if there's no talking going on, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't matter. (break)

Prabhupāda: For us it is not joke.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nobody has such a distribution force. So here in India the only problem I can see towards actually doing big-scale book distribution is that we don't have so many devotees. And those who we have, have to maintain . . .

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is . . . in your country you are not poverty-stricken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We are making devotees.

Prabhupāda: And here they are poverty-stricken. Generally they come, join this institution, those who are poverty-stricken, not willingly, "Oh, here is a good institution. We should join." That is very rarely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what I think is that . . . but their children will be able to. Like these young boys here.

Prabhupāda: Baper sajano mal. (Father's decorated thing.) The father-mother cannot maintain them, so entrust them Gauḍīya Maṭha.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. That's what's happening here. That's how we're getting all these boys.

Prabhupāda: Not that willingly they're coming, "Oh, it is good institution." That they do not. One or two, that way they are coming. Otherwise . . .

Jayapatākā: But the other who are giving the children here, they are seeing that here is the child can benefit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, their fathers realize it. But generally all helpless people, no caretaking at home, "So let me go to . . ."

Jayapatākā: Up to now there's been no book distribution. Only thing people heard is by word of mouth. And actually the word of mouth won't convey a very broad understanding—"You can go and stay." Bās. But now with our book distribution . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: . . . we increase. Then, as intelligent people read your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they'll be convinced.

Prabhupāda: They are coming. They're writing letters. So do this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The point I was trying to bring out, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that as you were mentioning that you had desire to spend your money for printing books . . . the point I'm trying to bring out is that . . .

Prabhupāda: Print books, sell and expand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What I'm saying is that . . .

Prabhupāda: Directly I do not want to spend money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What I'm saying is that that selling is determined by the number of distributors, and so far, we have very few of them here in India. That's the point I'm trying to make. Until we make more devotees here, the distribution is going to be to some extent limited.

Prabhupāda: No. If you have sufficient nice stock, anywhere you go, you'll take up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you have to have men who can offer the books.

Jayapatākā: We'll have four traveling parties . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Just like this Gītār Gān. Wherever we are going, selling.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imagine . . . all I'm trying to say is if we had more men, the distribution would increase tenfold, hundredfold.

Prabhupāda: Men will come by distribution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I was just trying to raise that point.

Jayapatākā: What the difficulty is that the men that are coming, they're not suitable for leading the party. We don't have any men coming, but theoretically when they come, the better class, they could distribute. But for leading would take several years. But their party leaders . . .

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. Let them be leader.

Jayapatākā: There are some distributors in the West that are very . . . they've been distributing five or six years, and they're very weak, and they want to come to India.

Prabhupāda: Let them come. (end)