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770109 - Conversation C - Bombay

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770109R3-BOMBAY - January 09, 1977 - 55:26 Minutes

(discussion on deprogrammers)

Prabhupāda: Jaldi ye sab bhi vairagya hojayega. (Detachment will develop very easily.) Jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam. Jnan bhi hoga. Manusya janm me do chiz chahiye jnan aur vairagya, toh wo Vasudev bhakti se sambhav hai. (Knowledge will also come. In human life, two things are needed. Jñāna and vairāgya. It is possible through devotional service to Lord Vāsudeva.)

vāsudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ
janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ
jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
(SB 1.2.7)

Indian man: Ye humare bahut acche mitra hai, aur inki patni bhi bahut hi bhali, bhaut hi acchi bhakt . . . (He is my dear friend and his wife is also a very pious lady . . .)

Prabhupāda: Bechari ko shok hogaya. Yehi samjhaya, joki ye duniya me hai, wo nadi me behti hui jo ghaas ek saath me bahut hojayega. Aur phir ek tufan aaya aur . . . (indistinct) . . . Ye sab shastra me samjhaya gaya. Bhagavat me bataya . . . (Unfortunately she had to go through so much misery . . . (indistinct) . . . this is what the śāśtras are telling us. All our bodily relations are like floating straws in a river that come together momentarily and disperse once again as soon as a storm arises. In Bhāgavatam, it is said . . .)

ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
pramatto teṣāṁ nidhanaṁ
paśyann api na paśyati
(SB 2.1.4)

Deha ye sarir, apatya ka arth hota hai offspring, children. Dehāpatya-kalatrā. Kalatrā ka arth hota hai patni. (Kalatrā means wife. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv asatsv api ātma-sainyeṣu.) Humlog samajhte hai, ki ye sab struggle hai. (We think that all these . . .) struggle for existence. But we think that, "These soldiers will give me protection," dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu. "I have got a strong body, and I have got very faithful wife. My children are so obedient and working," dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu, "and so I am safe." Ātmā sainya asatsu. Asatsu mane tikh ne . . . (indistinct) . . . (They are not going to last . . . (indistinct) . . .) And still, pramatto teṣāṁ nidhanam. He knows that, "These soldiers will be slaughtered in this battle, struggle for existence." Paśyann api na paśyati: "Although he knows, still, he is blind."

ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
pramatto teṣāṁ nidhanaṁ
paśyann api na paśyati
(SB 2.1.4)

Bhagavat ka ek ek slok jo hai na, uska upama duniya me nahi hai. (Every verse in Bhāgavatam has examples throughout the world.)

Indian man: Kitni varsh pehle likhi gayi hai? Wo sab chiz aaj ke padte hai toh aisa hota hai ki, aaj ke bhi aaj hi likhi gayi hai. Toh aaj ki life ke bhi ankul hai. Ekdum ankul hai. Har ek chiz ka jawab haazir hai, har ek chiz ka ankul hai. (These scriptures were written so long ago but when we read them, everything seems so relevant to the modern world.)

Prabhupāda: Uska naam shastra hai. (This is what śaśtra means.)

Indian man: Maharaj aapki wo commentary ki Bhagavad Gita pad raha hu abhi. Toh bahut aapki, wo sab itna acha, uske andar sab chiz ka, reference deke sab chize bataya hai. Mera mind bahut upset tha, toh waisa aapne jo bataya tum Gita suru karo toh maine uske baad me suru ki. Toh suru karne ke baad, usme sab chiz batati hai toh, toh apne ko bahut shanti mili dimaag pe, uske baad me. (Maharāja, I am reading your commentary on Bhagavad-gītā. My mind was very upset, so my friend told me to start reading Gītā. Since then, I have felt tremendous solace in my life.) (aside) There is some cardamom? (break) Everyone is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa's service—the gṛhastha, sannyāsī, brahmacārī. That is . . .

Hari-śauri: Superficial.

Prabhupāda: . . . external. Actual everyone is sannyāsī, and they have no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa—if they are actually seriously doing. More than sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī (BG 6.1). He is yogī, sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma. Nothing for personal interest. Then he is successful.

Hari-śauri: As soon as you become covered with some personal desire or endeavor for personal satisfaction . . .

Prabhupāda: Nothing is his personal.

Hari-śauri: . . . then you become designated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is conditioned. The Vṛndāvana life means the gopīs, the cowherd boys, the cowherdsmen, the elderly men, Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśodārāṇī, His . . . (indistinct) . . . every cows, calves, trees, flowers, Yamunā—everyone is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. They have no other business. That is Vṛndāvana. Everywhere, the whole description of the Kṛṣṇa book, center is Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Yeah, Kṛṣṇa book's so nice.

Prabhupāda: That is Vṛndāvana life: either in rasa dance or the cowherd's play or killing the demons or in dining and dancing. The friends are eating, they are being stolen by Brahmā—but the center is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. All activities are going on, just like in other place. But here in Vṛndāvana, all activities centered around Kṛṣṇa. When Brahmā is stealing His friends, the center is Kṛṣṇa. The demon is coming to destroy—the center is Kṛṣṇa. When there is forest fire, the center is Kṛṣṇa. This is Vṛndāvana beauty. In happiness, in danger, in perplexities, in friendship—everything Kṛṣṇa. Kāliya-damana. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has gone to Yamunā. He has fallen down in the . . . to fight the Kāliya." It is a very, what is called, calamitous. But still, the center is Kṛṣṇa. This is the beauty of Vṛndāvana. "Kṛṣṇa has entered Yamunā to fight with Kāliya," it is not at all good news for Mother Yaśodā, Nanda, friends and family, not at all. Their life is lost. But still the Kṛṣṇa is center. This is Vṛndāvana life. In everything Kṛṣṇa is center—anything. We are having just like "Kṛṣṇa's a bad propaganda," opposition.

Hari-śauri: Somehow or other, Kṛṣṇa's in the center. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) So I am happy that Kṛṣṇa is center. That's all. This is the beauty of this movement. Although we are put into some difficulty, but center is Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: The difficulty actually is increasing our thinking of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The papers are publishing, "Kṛṣṇas, they are bad. They are so on, so on, so on." That's all right. Kṛṣṇa is center.

Hari-śauri: Yes, what you said this afternoon, that . . . actually, I found out, one of the arguments that they're using . . . these deprogrammers, they're very clever. They've done a lot of research, because they're using that statement of Dr. Radhakrishnan's in the Bhagavad-gītā, where he says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, "Kṛṣṇa does not mean think of Him," they're using that against us to say that, "This man Radhakrishnan was the president of India, and he says that the Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for thinking of Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Just see how much great harm he has done.

Hari-śauri: Yes. So now they're trying to use that to say that we are misinterpreting the Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: But we don't say Radhakrishnan is authority. We take Caitanya Mahāprabhu as authority.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. Now we have to prove now that Radhakrishnan was not an authority on the Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not in the paramparā system. You talk with Rāmeśvara like this.

Hari-śauri: Actually, it can be . . . by using the Bhagavad-gītā, we can defeat their argument very easily anyway.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I've defended in every page that, "These rascals have used this." Where is Rāmeśvara?

Jagadīśa: Coming. Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've been talking about . . . (break)

Haṁsadūta: I shave once a month.

Hari-śauri: Once a month on pūrṇimā.

Rāmeśvara: And our Ādi-keśava, he has also grown out his hair for the court case and all the people. He's meeting the politicians.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But we are famous as shaven-headed. That is already advertised. Shaven-headed means Kṛṣṇas. So why should we relinquish this . . .

Haṁsadūta: Trademark.

Rāmeśvara: It has made us famous. That's a fact.

Trivikrama: Yes, it means a monk. Some people . . . in the Far East, at least, shaven head means monk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Shaven-headed. These Buddhist monks, they are shaven-headed.

Hari-śauri: Even in the West they shave their heads. And they look something like that. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Well, there was some income tax office pleader. So I have given the idea that, "The fifty percent, that is promotion expenditure." So he accept . . . "Yes, it can be done." Where is the profit? Whatever we profit is promotion expenditure. We give to ISKCON commission, or some way or other it is spent. So he admitted, "Yes, it can be done." And last night I was suggesting, "For promotion spend." Even if we open a temple, that is promotion.

Jagadīśa: Profit means that people are putting money in their pocket and enjoying. And we don't.

Prabhupāda: No. If we open a center, that is propaganda center. Why do you say "temple"? But this is the way of propaganda.

Jagadīśa: Opening a new branch.

Prabhupāda: Do you follow?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So it is promotion for the books. Whatever we do, it is promotion. That's all. And the main point is that it is not profitable, er, profit concern, because you are not giving any royalty to the author. So where is his profit-making? Nobody's making profit—the author, the worker, everyone.

Trivikrama: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. So all expenditure—promotion, that's all. The cost of paper, cost of printing, cost of promotion—finished, everything. Make account like that. The income tax father will not touch it.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. Everything we're doing is propaganda work—everything.

Prabhupāda: That's all. If still there is excess, give some bonus to the gṛhasthas bhaktas. They're family men. Let them have some expenditure.

Jagadīśa: Some wage.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Finished, all . . . no account. (laughs) So they admitted, both of them, "Yes, sir, that is . . . that can be done."

Trivikrama: You're a genius.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) And our Gopāla, he is going three times and to—"How to do it?" Do it like that. Everything spend for promotion. Bās. No money. And actually, that is the fact. Where is the profit, and who is going to take the profit? Nobody is there.

Hari-śauri: We're not opening our temples for a comfortable place to live.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Trivikrama: Sleep on the floor.

Jagadīśa: There's no sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: No. That I was explaining, that what is Vṛndāvana life. In Vṛndāvana life there is everything—the cowherds boy, the calves, the cows, the elderly person like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśodāmayī, friend. What is their aim? The aim is Kṛṣṇa. The demons . . . (laughter) Everything is Kṛṣṇa. The demon is coming there. That is also center is Kṛṣṇa. And gopīs are dancing. That is also center is Kṛṣṇa. And Brahmā is stealing the friends and cows. That is also center Kṛṣṇa.

Trivikrama: Now we are also getting the demons.

Prabhupāda: That is Vṛndāvana life. When everything is Kṛṣṇa, that is Vṛndāvana life. Why Vṛndāvana life is so exalted? Because they have no other shelter except Kṛṣṇa. The whole book Kṛṣṇa is therefore center Kṛṣṇa. That's all. But there are many varieties of activities.

Hari-śauri: There's ninety chapters there. Just . . . that's a drop in the ocean.

Prabhupāda: Every page, the center is Kṛṣṇa. Not only the Kṛṣṇa book. All our books—Caitanya-caritāmṛta—the center is Kṛṣṇa. Bhāgavata, the center is Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavad-gītā, center is Kṛṣṇa. Nectar of Devotion, the center is Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Similarly, our this book, the center is Kṛṣṇa. When we open a temple, the center is Kṛṣṇa. In this way manage. Promotion. All spend for promotion. Then the income tax will not be able to touch your hair, (laughs) what to speak of your body. (laughter) So now our counterpropaganda is going on, the center is Kṛṣṇa. Big, big Kṛṣṇa's name are coming, "These Kṛṣṇa people," "These Kṛṣṇa devotees," "This Kṛṣṇa center"—that is our triumph. (indistinct comments by devotees) What is that?

Trivikrama: There is a letter.

Prabhupāda: Letter from?

Rāmeśvara: I was mentioning it this morning. We intercept their newsletters.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Rāmeśvara: They are simply talking about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) That is our triumph.

Rāmeśvara: They're in a Kaṁsa-sampradāya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Following the example of Kaṁsa—unfavorable meditation on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that will also do benefit.

Trivikrama: Their center is Kṛṣṇa also, only they're demons.

Rāmeśvara: These are receipts, Śrīla Prabhupāda, each one for two thousand dollars deposited in your account in Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: That is rent tax.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They've already been entered. Both times from Balavanta in . . .

Prabhupāda: You enter. Enter this.

Hari-śauri: Two from Balavanta, two from Rūpānuga.

Prabhupāda: Debit.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: This is from an organization called "Committee Engaged in Freeing Minds." Freeing the mind. That is their name. And this is sent out to . . . all over the United States. It says: "Confidential. Not for publication."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) And it is out to the enemies. (devotee claps)

Rāmeśvara: In capital letters it says, "HELP PUSH THE HARE KRISHNA COURT ACTION. There are two legal cases in progress . . ."

Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: "There are two legal cases in progress at this time that we must support—one in New York and one in Los Angeles. In New York the two ISKCON leaders have been indicted by the Queens County Grand Jury for unlawful imprisonment and attempted grand larceny. In Los Angeles, ISKCON and Madonna Slavin have accused her family of kidnapping, and charges of unlawful imprisonment have been entered against the mother and several other members of the Slavin family and two friends." These two friends are the professional deprogrammers. Then it says, "As in nearly all of these cases, the media will greatly influence the outcome. Do not underestimate the power of the media. We therefore must tell our story . . ."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has already become media.

Rāmeśvara: "We must therefore tell our story to them in great number, and in this way the world will hear it. As of this date, HK," short for Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) They're chanting Kṛṣṇa. Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They say, "As of this date, Hare Kṛṣṇa has been able to flood both the media and the District Attorney's offices with support for their side . . ."

Prabhupāda: They're admitting. That's good.

Rāmeśvara: ". . . and they are way ahead of those on our side who believe that it is not a religious issue. Sun Myung Moon"—this is that Reverend Moon—"has been largely exposed in the Press. But not the Kṛṣṇas."

Trivikrama: Haribol. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: So the more they expose, the more implicated. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: "Most people think of them, if at all, as loving, peaceful, prayerful children with strange customs and dress but low-key action and behavior."

Prabhupāda: What is that behavior, low . . .? Lowky?

Trivikrama: Low key.

Rāmeśvara: Means not violent.

Trivikrama: Not aggressive.

Hari-śauri: Nice people.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Rāmeśvara: "But they do not know about their forceful, harassing solicitation . . ."

Prabhupāda: They know.

Rāmeśvara: ". . . begging tactics."

Prabhupāda: We do not know.

Rāmeśvara: They say that most people do not know how aggressive we really are. "Most of the families with young people involved with Hare Kṛṣṇa, those citizens who do know them very well . . ." (break)

Prabhupāda: This is very important letter.

Trivikrama: Yeah.

Rāmeśvara: We sent this to all the temples in America.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And give me one copy. I shall keep. (laughs)

Rāmeśvara: This is for you.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Rāmeśvara: This is all based on the information received by various parent groups. "These people usually fear physical harm that may come to them and to their children who are in Hare Kṛṣṇa, as well as forcibly permanent separation from their children in Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is meaning "liberation." This is liberation—forcely separating from māyā. That they do not know. Māyām etaṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). Yes.

Rāmeśvara: "Hare Kṛṣṇa is known to hide out those whose families want them out."

Prabhupāda: Family?

Rāmeśvara: If the family wants them out, we have a reputation that we will hide them, so the family cannot get them. "One example is in the Queens case." That's Ādi Keśava Mahārāja. "The charge of attempted grand larceny stems from an alleged extortion attempt against the Shapiro family by the temple leaders who wanted money from the parents and threatened to harm their son . . ."

Prabhupāda: This is false.

Rāmeśvara: ". . . unless the money was given."

Prabhupāda: This is false.

Rāmeśvara: This is false, completely false. "One of the things we can do is give moral support to these families. How better to do it than to show your support by writing to the . . ."

Prabhupāda: This we can bring a charge against them: "Prove that we wanted money."

Rāmeśvara: Yes, we are counter . . . we are fighting them. ". . . by writing to the District Attorney's"—those are the Justice Department Offices—"or contacting your local media." Then they give the addresses of people in New York and two addresses in Los Angeles who you should write to, telling them about all the knowledge you have about all the abuses of Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then it says: "You should commence action for a legal deprogramming. If other families of Hare Kṛṣṇa victims would go to court to get a legal conservatorship or guardianship with an intended writ of habeas corpus . . ." Now, what this means is you go to the court, and you say: "My dear judge, my son is in Hare Kṛṣṇa. He has been brainwashed." And you have a paper from a psychiatrist that says: "Yes, he is definitely acting in a robotlike way." Then the court will say: "All right, you're the parent, so we give you legal guardianship over the son."

Prabhupāda: No, we can place a counter psychiatrist and counter . . . just like Cox's statement.

Rāmeśvara: There is one law in America where they don't even give you a chance to defend. They immediately give the parents the guardianship. Now, this law was written to protect old people, and they are cheating and using the law against us. Sometimes old people become senile, and let's say, they'll do harmful things, like they may give away their money, they may do things in a state of . . .

Prabhupāda: But we have got parents' organization also.

Rāmeśvara: Now we do. Anyway, they're using this law against us.

Prabhupāda: That they will do. They will do their best, we have to do our best. That's all.

Rāmeśvara: They say: "This would enable the court to remove the young person from the temple for medical examination and evaluation by cult-knowledgeable psychiatrists and psychologists." In other words, deprogramming. "This is the best thing to do. The media would report it . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, no. But one psychiatrist may give one verdict, but other psychiatrist may give another verdict. Then how the court will decide?

Rāmeśvara: Because in these temporary guardianship cases, the court is already against us in many places.

Prabhupāda: But . . . against may be . . .

Rāmeśvara: The court is very sympathetic . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . but so far the decision of the psychiatrist, we can present our psychiatrist.

Rāmeśvara: There's no equal time given. It's one-sided only.

Prabhupāda: That means in the name of justice, injustice is going on.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. This law is unconstitutional. We . . . I mentioned that there is a group of lawyers who are now organizing a committee nationwide to defend us, and they're going to prove that this law should be changed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the right course. Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They're already working on that. So then they say: "If you can do this to your son, then it will get national news media into the scene, and then people will learn about Hare Kṛṣṇa in particular, and all the effects of destructive cults on our youth." Then it says: "We have a legal packet which contains advice on the procedure and techniques for legal deprogramming."

Prabhupāda: So nowhere they have mentioned my name.

Devotees: No.

Prabhupāda: That is good. (laughter) Otherwise, I would have been the target. That was very dangerous.

Rāmeśvara: Sometimes . . . one of the general charges they make against all the different religious groups in America is that the leader is actually making a lot of profit for himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Like this Reverend Moon, he lives in a very, very big house, and he has a big car. And this Guru Maharaj-ji, he has his own airplane.

Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaj-ji has got . . .?

Rāmeśvara: He had his own airplane, which they had to sell.

Hari-śauri: That fat boy, Guru Maharaj-ji.

Prabhupāda: No, he had. So what is his position now?

Rāmeśvara: His family has called him a false guru. So there's a slip.

Prabhupāda: His mother.

Hari-śauri: What was the effect of that?

Rāmeśvara: He lost a lot of his following. The main ones . . . there are a few small ones. Moon, Reverend Moon, he is a big demon, and they're attacking him, so that's good. But then they try to make us to be just like him. So I've heard them say that you have a big penthouse in Los Angeles, and you always drive in Rolls Royces. I've heard these things, but we . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, I heard all this. In Germany they accused me. You told me.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, they also say that you're enjoying all this money.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Harikeśa said that if they're successful in their prosecution against Haṁsadūta, then they'll prosecute yourself, one leader to the other. They say that the leaders are manipulating, and the other ones are just robots.

Trivikrama: Yes, we're all robots.

Rāmeśvara: Whenever they . . . it's very funny. Whenever they meet a devotee who appears to be intelligent and not have any symptoms of being brainwashed, they accuse him of being one of the leaders. (laughter) If I'm debating with one of them, or if any devotee, and they see he's very intelligent, they say: "But you are one of the leaders."

Prabhupāda: Certainly that is a fact. (laughter) All GBC, they are leaders.

Jagadīśa: So you're not brainwashed then.

Hari-śauri: The leaders are not brainwashed.

Rāmeśvara: No, the leaders are the ones who are brainwashing everyone else.

Hari-śauri: But then if someone becomes a leader . . .

Rāmeśvara: Then they say: "The next best thing to do after you get the deprogramming is to hold a press conference to explain all the reasons that there is a need for criminal conviction of destructive cult leaders. Have ex-victims, especially of Hare Kṛṣṇa, present. The truth of their personal experiences carry great weight with reporters. It is now necessary to awaken America to how widespread . . ."

Prabhupāda: I . . . in the beginning . . . I have told many times, when I first went that, "If I say these prohibitions, who will accept?" Eh? And now it has taken a shape, it has become a problem throughout the country. I was thinking, "Who will hear me? As soon as I'll say this, they'll say, 'Go home.' " But by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement it has become a problem. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. It has become a problem for them; it is success for me. Yes. I presented something which is now a problem for them.

Jagadīśa: They waited too long. They didn't tell you to go home soon enough.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, my creed is at their home.

Jagadīśa: You planted seeds in their home.

Rāmeśvara: Sometimes they capture . . . very rarely they capture one of our members, and they convince him to leave. And after they convince him to leave our movement, then they tell him many lies about us. And then he goes on television and tells the American public that we brainwashed him. So sometimes they get some of our ex-members to speak against us. This is going on. In Los Angeles I have met three ex-devotees who viciously lie about us.

Prabhupāda: Who is he?

Rāmeśvara: Just minor devo . . . they're never leaders.

Jagadīśa: Initiated?

Rāmeśvara: One girl. And they're vicious, very hateful. Because they are constantly being told that we are evil.

Prabhupāda: Nitāi has gone there to do it? (chuckles) No.

Rāmeśvara: No. I think . . . last I heard he was still in Vṛndāvana area.

Prabhupāda: If he is in Vṛndāvana, that is good for him.

Rāmeśvara: He is crazy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Then it says: "Other things need to be done. We have to get supportive comments from professionals and authorities in areas of religion, education, mental health and physical health, law and sociology. Statements by experts and professionals carry a lot of weight."

Prabhupāda: That is in our side.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: "Ask your contact to comment or express his opinion of such things as that this is not a matter of religion; that there is resulting mental and physical harm; the right of self-determination means the right to have a free mind; destruction of the family unit . . ."

Prabhupāda: If one has the right to have a free mind, why he cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Rāmeśvara: Well, their argument is that we do not allow him to consider alternatives.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of a free mind? That means you brainwash.

Rāmeśvara: Exactly.

Prabhupāda: Free mind means everyone has the right. That is free mind. If you force something, then where is the free mind?

Rāmeśvara: So actually they are understanding that once you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you will stop thinking about māyā.

Prabhupāda: They're admitting.

Rāmeśvara: They understand that . . . their claim is that this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Is dangerous. (laughs)

Rāmeśvara: . . . is dangerous because it makes you stop thinking about so many other things. That is their . . .

Prabhupāda: That is our victory. That is victory. Because Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that viṣaya viṣānale, dibā-niśi hiyā jwale, taribare nā koinu upāy, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma saṅkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāy: "This material world is the burning fire of anxiety. So in order to get rid of it, we have to take shelter of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, which is imported from the spiritual sky." That is a fact. So as soon as you take shelter of Hare Kṛṣṇa, naturally we are relieved from this blazing fire of material existence. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Finished. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. Mahā-dāvāgni, this fire of material existence, finished. That's a fact. So they have pointed out this circumstance, it is good. Yes. That is the position. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that. In order to get rid of this blazing fire, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21): chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: Anyway, this goes on. But then what they're saying is there has to be a very big case where a cult leader of Hare Kṛṣṇa is sentenced to jail. So they're writing to say that, "Now we have to find lawyers who will be willing to take up this cause very inexpensively."

Prabhupāda: That means there is no money.

Rāmeśvara: But one recent development which will change that is that they have appealed to the government that they are an educational group, therefore they should be tax exempt like any other educational organization. And the government has agreed. Now they have gotten their tax exemption, so now these parents can donate lots of . . . different people will start donating lots of money to them as tax write-offs. So I think that we will see that their activities will be expanded this year, because now they are tax exempt, they'll get a lot of money.

Hari-śauri: That news article said that someone had given them $105,000. Some parents of a converted . . .

Prabhupāda: No, there are rich parents. They can do that. And every parent is unhappy. (chuckles)

Rāmeśvara: The fighting will increase this year. It's getting very acute, as you said in that letter.

Prabhupāda: So they are feeling the strength of Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: We're becoming the main target. Formerly it was this Reverend Moon, but his movement has been . . . so many scandals, that it is beginning to lose its appeal to people. So now we are the main target faith. That is the most significant thing about this newsletter, that they are saying that "Formerly Reverend Moon . . . but he has already been exposed. So now let us direct all our energy against Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: But they do not know whom to expose.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That's nice.

Rāmeśvara: They are making it possible for us to preach in all the TVs, radios and newspapers.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is our opportunity. The governor has invited.

Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book, when . . . after Kṛṣṇa told Rukmiṇī that He would have to leave her . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: . . . then she was speaking to Him and saying that, "You say that no one can understand Your activities. And also no one can understand the activities of Your devotee." So nobody knows what we're doing. They all put some psychological name, but they can't grasp the essence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So they're afraid.

Rāmeśvara: One of their big charges is that when we go out and distribute our books we are very aggressive, and therefore it is a sign that we are not actually religious.

Prabhupāda: Every salesman must be aggressive. That is a qualification.

Rāmeśvara: They say we are interfering with the right of the person. He doesn't want to speak to us, but we insist that he speak to us.

Prabhupāda: That is salesman's qualification. Nobody is dying for our book, but if we can create market for our book, that is our qualification.

Rāmeśvara: So then they will say, "Then that means you are not a religion. You're simply a business."

Prabhupāda: Yes. From business side . . . religion means we are expert in every way. We can cheat also very nicely, which you cannot do. (laughter) That is religion: expert in everything. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇaḥ. And Kṛṣṇa says that, "Amongst the cheaters, I am the greatest cheat."

Haṁsadūta: They think religious people should be fools.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but our religion is not that. The most intelligent man can be religious.

Haṁsadūta: They should be fools, and they should be poor. And we are neither fools nor poor.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes.

Rāmeśvara: We always answer their charge that, "You are saying that all the people are being upset by us, but actually the proof is that we are getting so many letters every day, hundreds of letters, and all these letters, no complaints. Simply they want more information, they want to order all our books. So from our mail order we can see that these people are writing to us because they have been sold books on the street."

Prabhupāda: So these letters are important. You can publish these letters in a book. Those who are ordering our books, they . . .

Rāmeśvara: Also, when we tell them, "Our magazine used to sell two hundred thousand copies a month, now it is selling five hundred thousand, seven hundred fifty thousand, some months one million copies. So that means the public is . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Becoming more interested. So let us go on fighting with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no disappointment. Yudhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). We shall fight and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything is all right. We cannot stop fighting.

Rāmeśvara: Actually, one argument that they use . . . they have found an old Back to Godhead article that I think you wrote, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was about Arjuna's position during the battle of Kurukṣetra, where he had to fight against his relatives. You were commenting that, "So sometimes you may have to even kill your family members for Kṛṣṇa." So they take this magazine article, and they say that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa leaders are teaching all the devotees to kill their parents." So this is an example of how they will distort everything.

Prabhupāda: That . . . you can distort anything. If there is expert distortion, it is . . .

Trivikrama: We can kill our parents even, like Prahlāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is actually required. Prahlāda did not protest. It is a great sin, if your father is being killed before you, if you do not protest even: "Why you are killing?" not to give protection. But even if you do not, then you are not worthy son. So in that way Prahlāda Mahārāja was accused that in his presence his father was being killed. He did not protest, neither he . . . rather, he was ready with the garland: (laughs) (laughter) "As soon as my father is killed, immediately garland the Lord." So that is not the fact. And he is . . . later on, he requested that, "My father was a great offender. So kindly give him protection." So he's not . . . that son. He knows . . . he knew that, "This my father is being killed by the nails of my Lord. It is his great fortune." Why shall he protest? He's seeing that "My father is being released from this material existence." Why shall he protest? And still to confirm it, he requested the Lord that, "This my rascal father made so many offenses . . ." But for him he did not ask anything, but he's such a good son that for demon father he requested. So how much faithful son he was, this is the proof. Not that he was unfaithful. He knew it, that "Let my father's body be separated from his soul by the Lord. That is good for him." And still to confirm it he personally requested that, "My father may be excused." "Why your father? Your father's father, his father, everyone, up to fourteen generations."

Jagadīśa: Paropakāra.

Prabhupāda: So to become devotee means to do the best service to the family. If there is one devotee in the family, all the forefathers, they are delivered. So anyway, don't be disappointed. Go on fighting and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be right. There is no cause of disappointment.

Rāmeśvara: Actually, the field now for preaching in America is better than ever. More people are becoming interested to hear what we are and what our message is than ever before because of all this controversy. Whenever something is making newspapers that is confusing or controversial, they immediately want to hear about it, because they have a tendency to look for faults.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.

Rāmeśvara: So they're very eager to have us come to the colleges and high schools . . .

Prabhupāda: Envious.

Rāmeśvara: . . . to speak. It's much easier now to get lecturing engagements than ever before. They are after us to give our lectures.

Prabhupāda: So why not engage Brahmānanda in that business?

Rāmeśvara: I think he could do well.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: In New York or L.A. Wherever you think . . .

Prabhupāda: Let him go to the colleges, accompanied by some other.

Rāmeśvara: I was thinking that this, especially right now, this time is the prime time for preaching in America.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let as many sannyāsīs as possible. Sannyāsī, brahmacārī or gṛhastha, it doesn't matter.

Rāmeśvara: Cannot possibly cover all the territory.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: There's so much engagement in America right now.

Prabhupāda: As far as possible, I think Brahmānanda should be engaged with some assistant or some superior. Two. He should not be alone. That is the best solution.

Rāmeśvara: No one's giving engagements in New York. Now I have two people in L.A. beginning, Jagannath Sūta.

Prabhupāda: Then this kīrtana . . . this is kīrtana—speaking. Whatever little fault is there, that will be rectified.

Rāmeśvara: He'll like it, too. Coming into America to help fight the demons.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately do that. This is the conclusion. Engage him in preaching, and this is the opportunity. You say that, "We require so many." Similarly, Madhudviṣa can be engaged also in that way.

Rāmeśvara: Wow. I was thinking . . . I wrote him a letter. He was very happy to receive it. He posted it in the restaurant. I invited him to come to Los Angeles and was encouraging him.

Prabhupāda: That I am asking him from the very beginning, that he come.

Rāmeśvara: If he doesn't feel comfortable coming all the way to India, maybe I can invite him to Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have sent him telegram, Madhudviṣa. I have sent him telegram that, "You come."

Rāmeśvara: He may be too entangled to come right away.

Prabhupāda: What is that entanglement?

Rāmeśvara: Well, he is not following all our principles.

Trivikrama: Women.

Rāmeśvara: He's got one woman friend.

Jagadīśa: Govinda dāsī says that he doesn't want to come to India.

Rāmeśvara: He thinks it's too austere. He needs something more gradual.

Hari-śauri: He never liked India.

Rāmeśvara: But this is a good idea.

Prabhupāda: Then engage them.

Rāmeśvara: If he's willing, he could give speaking engagements. I tell you, America is just wide open.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not take this . . . suppose he is attracted by some woman. Let him dress like a gentleman and keep with the woman as husband and wife and preach. What is the wrong there? Whatever is done, you close up that chapter; now you become a householder. There is no harm. And live as a gentleman householder and preach. But don't play duplicity in the dress of sannyāsī to keep private relations. That is not good. That is duplicity. Better openly become a respectable householder and serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main thing, either in this dress or that dress. So if you cannot keep yourself sincerely as a sannyāsī, then get yourself married. But you cannot keep the girl as friend. That is also not good.

Jagadīśa: But for Brahmānanda, he may remain sannyāsī? Brahmānanda?

Prabhupāda: That is his choice. But we say that, "Don't be hypocrite." That's all. If he thinks now he'll be able to continue as a sannyāsī, he'll not fall down, he'll be careful, let him continue.

Jagadīśa: So I will call him . . .

Prabhupāda: That will depend on his sincerity. But I say that if you cannot remain as a sannyāsī, get yourself married, live like a gentleman and serve Kṛṣṇa. Why should you give up Kṛṣṇa's service? That is my point. As you want to live, any way, comfortably, do it. We never condemned gṛhasthas. If sannyāsa is not suitable for you, you remain as a gṛhastha. What is the wrong there?

Jagadīśa: I'm going to call him this evening.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Rāmeśvara: Brahmānanda.

Jagadīśa: To give him direction.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he's coming. Kīrtanānanda has gone.

Rāmeśvara: Kīrtanānanda has gone, but now they are a little confused what should be done next. They originally . . . the plan was that he was going to come here to be your secretary. So now they need some new instruction. So we thought Jagadīśa could call and invite him to come to America to preach.

Prabhupāda: That is better. That is better. To write some letters here, that is not so important. But if he can preach, and he . . . at least, we are expecting—he's old sannyāsī; he knows how to preach—let him do that.

Jagadīśa: So I'll suggest that he goes straight to America instead of coming here.

Prabhupāda: If he's coming here, let him come. We shall talk together. There is no secrecy.

Jagadīśa: I'll leave it up to him, as he prefers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's coming, don't stop him. That is the point.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've got a letter here from Jayādvaita and from Jagannātha dāsa regarding some corrections. These are two books that are in production right now. So would it be all right to ask you them?

Prabhupāda: What is that book? (break) Sarvātmana yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyam (SB 11.5.41). Factually Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate shelter. If he has taken that shelter, he's free, immune. And that Kṛṣṇa has confirmed here. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo . . . (BG 18.66). If he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious, then if he gives such a duty, he's liable to fall. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ . . . "Because you are giving up all other duties, don't think that you'll be liable to punishment. I'll give you protection." So the conclusion is: if one is not fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he's obliged to do his duty. This is the easiest way to become free from all obligation—to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That, I think, Duśyanta-rāja? Duśyanta-rāja.

Pradyumna: Duśyanta-rāja.

Prabhupāda: Or Śāntanu. Śāntanu. Śāntanu Mahārāja. He, in the presence of his elder brother, he became king. His elder brother left. So it was considered sinful. But he requested his elder brother to come and take charge of the . . . he said, "No, I am not going." Then he took. Otherwise it was not in the proper order. Because Vedic injunction. Then? (end)