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760816 - Conversation - Bombay

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760816R1-BOMBAY - August 16, 1976 - 21:41 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Vairāgya is there.

Dr. Patel: Sir, shall I say, vairāgyaṁ jñeyam . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). This is vairāgya. So unless he has attained this stage, virakti, then where is bhakti? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairāgya. But if there is no vairāgya, where is bhakti? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairāgya separately. But if you are actually bhakta, then vairāgya is there. If there is no vairāgya, there is no bhakti; it is sahajiyā-bhāva.

Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, vairāgya is a by-product of bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated:

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā
aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena
nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ
(SB 6.1.15)

Vairāgya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalayā bhaktyā, simply by bhakti, vāsudeva-parāyaṇa. Vairāgya immediately comes. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. If actually one is pure bhakta, then everything material, finished. That is real bhakta. Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also, that is not bhakti. That is markaṭa-vairāgya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti. No. You take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairāgya will come. The vairāgya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta. That is adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is bhakti. And because there is not anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167), it is adulterated.

Dr. Patel: Bhakti-avyabhicāriṇī.

Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāriṇī, yes. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yah sevate. Avyabhicāreṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He is above three guṇas. So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti. This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas.

Dr. Patel: Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving.

Prabhupāda: Vedas, when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with Vedas: "Vedas there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing Vedas, there is . . . he said: "I don't care for it." Veda māniyā.

veda nā māniyā bauddha haya ta nāstika
vedāśraya nāstikya-vāda bauddhake adhika
(CC Madhya 6.168)

Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rūpa Gosvāmī's advice that, "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa mentioned." But whether you have followed other things.

Yaśomatīnandana: Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa . . . you are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam. But first there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ (NOI 1). Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī, and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta. He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said: "Yes, you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā. Immediately . . ."

Acyutānanda: Even in Kṛṣṇa book, rāsa-līlā should not be told in public.

Prabhupāda: No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there. In the book must be there.

Acyutānanda: But in public . . .

Prabhupāda: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities?

Acyutānanda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Liberated for going to hell.

Devotee: In your Kṛṣṇa book, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Kṛṣṇa that it's very difficult to misinterpret them, because you use such clear explanation.

Prabhupāda: No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand.

Yaśomatīnandana: Even theoretical understanding that Kṛṣṇa is transcendental will not help unless one . . .

Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa is giving . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Kṛṣṇa?

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vṛndāvana . . .

Prabhupāda: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all.

Devotee: And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā. Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇḍa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha. Why should he desire like that?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some devotees who always want to . . .

Prabhupāda: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane.

Acyutānanda: They also wear the Rādhā-kuṇḍa māṭi, tilaka.

Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā-kuṇḍa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇḍa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa vāsī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau.

Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad-gītā, then gradually the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then ultimately Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavad-gītā is the entrance. Then Bhāgavata is graduate, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . this is the step by step. But if one is sincere, everything becomes revealed to him. He does not commit mistake.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some devotees, especially in Vṛndāvana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannātha Purī, always parikramā of holy places.

Prabhupāda: It is good to go to holy places.

Acyutānanda: They go independently.

Yaśomatīnandana: Unauthorized.

Acyutānanda: They go more to avoid service than to become purified.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's no harm if they just . . .

Prabhupāda: (coughing) You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Kṛṣṇa gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru: "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious, then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete āra nā kariha. This is . . .

Acyutānanda: What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use?

Prabhupāda: Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tathā, he has got this.

Acyutānanda: Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it?

Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If one is determined that, "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Mahārāja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Otherwise he'll argue.

Devotee: Even nitya-siddha has guru in the spiritual . . .

Yaśomatīnandana: Even the liberated soul, nitya-siddha.

Prabhupāda: Liberated soul never says that, "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberation. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God—guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan (CC Adi 7.71): "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever-lastingly of guru, then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha, "I am fool number one"? That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru. Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that, "I am beyond this chastisement. I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru. I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that, "This man should be the next ācārya." But these people, just after his passing away, they began to fight, who shall be ācārya. That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya, and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insisted on it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya. Then another man came, then another ācārya, another ācārya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become." Then he's finished.

Yaśomatīnandana: They kept fighting, and when the real ācārya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is the real ācārya.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The real ācārya emerges by his own preaching?

Devotee: Yes.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)