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760513 - Conversation - Honolulu

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760513R2-HONOLULU - May 13, 1976 - 59.22 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . cannot say sometimes it is dark. (coughs) Is that truth, that sun is sometimes dark, sometimes light? This is their intelligence. But we have to be guided by these rascals. That is the dangerous position in the modern world. All the leaders are rascals: religious, political, social. Any field of activities, just try to advise us. Now this Indira Gandhi is convicted: "You must leave your post. It is taken." Just see, (s)he is the guidance of the whole nation, and (s)he is a culprit. Where is that, the secure? The mother is killing child, you see. And the prime minister is a thief; the president is a rogue. This is the . . . in your country, big country, and a big rogue. And India, it is big country also, culture, there is a thief. The mother is the best shelter for child. She is mother, then where is protection? (child crying in background) This is going on. The mother is no more shelter; the king is no more protector. Then? Where is shelter? This is the . . . and long, long ago, at least three thousand years ago, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita warned, viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca: "Government men and women should not be trusted." This is the . . . and this, they elected the woman politician. Why she does become victim? (devotee laughs)

I think yesterday I was talking that this Indira Gandhi was going to the hospital for abortion, twice times in a year. That is discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, Indira Gandhi—we don't wish to discuss—but she is, that is . . . she has no culture, no character, she's not very much educated. But anyway, so-called education, what is the value? And she is leader. Whatever she says, that is final. I think somebody told me that Nixon, "Resign on condition from . . . (indistinct)"

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. It is secret, but it is well-accepted fact. So Ford pardoned him.

Prabhupāda: So that means he is dishonest.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: For his post as president he played this dishonesty.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He made a deal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the king's duty to see that there must be judgment for culprit and innocent. But from the very beginning, start, the judgment is in favor of the rogue. Then how we can expect justice? Beginning is dishonesty. Anyway, this should be reduced. They do not want character. No religion, no character. That's a different . . .

Paramahaṁsa: That is why they will consider us . . . consider this philosophy—the people in power—they will consider this philosophy very dangerous to them, because it would make it so that they could not plunder so easily.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: It would make it so they can't plunder as easily. The people have some knowledge, then it won't be as easy for the leaders to plunder, to exploit. So they don't want the people to have this knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Then our preaching is finished. There is a story of this "have knowledge." One brahmin, he was very much poverty-stricken, so he could not find any things, valuable. Very poverty-stricken. So he knew one gang of thieves, so he went there. He met that chief, gang, "Sir, I know you. I have no . . . (indistinct) . . . so I have come to you. You can also take me as one of you . . . (indistinct) . . . I can steal." So "All right, you may come." So they went to some house to plunder. All the assistants were plundering here and there, and he was also doing also. So as soon as he touches something, he remembered, "If I steal this gold, then such-and-such punishment will be assessed." He is a brāhmaṇa-pandit, he knows. "How can I steal?" He left over that. Then he touches something else, . . . (indistinct) . . . and he remembers . . .

Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Not a very good crook.

Prabhupāda: So he saw that the householder, they chewed some pān, and after chewing he has thrown, so he took that. "I don't see . . . (indistinct) . . . let's go."

Paramahaṁsa: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: So when they gathered together, the leader: "What you have stolen? What you have got?" Somebody said: "We have so much . . ." And when he was asked, he said: "I have got this." (devotees laugh) So he became very angry, "So how can you stay with us, you cannot be a thief?" "Where I was searching I got so many opportunities, but after searching, the śāstra says, "If you steal like that, you suffer like this. Kindly don"t do that.' Therefore I thought there is no any injunction for this." So (laughing) the leader could understand. Then out of sympathy he said: "All right, you are poor man. You came to us, you cannot steal, so whatever we have got today you can take it." Then he said: "How can I take it? It is stolen property." And he went away, again the same poverty-stricken. He could not improve his position.

So this is the social condition. And if we teach them not to become drunkard, not to become women-hunter, the modern society, they find that "Where is our business? Our business is to keep hotels, brothels and, what is called, topless, bottomless hotels, and drinking house and smoking cigarettes, and then so many . . . and where is our business? To teach the lowest to give up this . . . (indistinct) . . . where is our business? Then we have to close up."

Paramahaṁsa: Wow.

Prabhupāda: This is our position. Therefore it is said: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That I was thinking in the beginning, that "I have come here as wise man . . . (indistinct) . . . how these rascals will accept? They are so much addicted to all these things." I never expected that anyone will accept it. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's grace that some of you have accepted it; otherwise I was hopeless. Bon Mahārāja was hopeless. He left, and so many big, big horses came, and I was a little horse . . . Boro boro ghoda gelo rasatal, beto ghoda bole koto jol. (Big big horses got swept away but the pony wants to know how much water is there.) Horse, they’re swimmer. But the stream was so strong, big, big horses were carried away. And one pony, he came, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" That means he wants to cross over. He was informed that many, many big horses, they jumped over and were carried away, but still he stayed. So my position was like that. Big, big Vivekananda and so on and so on, so many came, and they became victimized themselves. Instead of stopping illicit sex he became subject to illicit sex, and when he returned India he brought with him two women secretaries and intimate companions. That was Vivekananda. One was Sister Nivedita, and another was some other obscure, some. He could not find any male disciples. He took to cheat women. This is Vivekananda's achievement . . . (indistinct) . . . when he retired, two women, and one of them was very intimately connected. This is . . .

Paramahaṁsa: The more that people accept and understand what you are teaching, the more dangerous you will be seen.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: The more dangerous you will be seen. You will be seen as a threat to the way of life, so there will be so many powers that want to stop. And universities are connected with the government. Universities are part of the . . . actually government sponsored. The government is full of the biggest rogues, so, er . . . but on the university campuses there are some good people. In other words, there are some intelligent people in the universities who will be able to appreciate.

Prabhupāda: So why they keep the subject matter in philosophy? They . . . the subject matter is spent—atheist. We study, people who are atheists, moralists.

Devotee (2): (showing something) Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: Aiye. Yesterday you were talking about the philosophy of not the person but the soul who is in the person, like that. What did you say, Gaurasundara told you?

Govinda dāsī: That the principle . . . it's the principle of guru, not the person. In other words, not . . . you're saying that to worship and serve you directly as Śrīla Prabhupāda as the personality that we know and love is . . .

Prabhupāda: So he is following the principles of guru's instruction?

Govinda dāsī: Well, he doesn't . . . he's changing all the time.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then what is the use?

Govinda dāsī: So it's not . . . I expect him to continue to change. But this is just what he is most . . .

Prabhupāda: Change means he has no knowledge. He has not taken any knowledge. Change means that.

Govinda dāsī: In other words, he is saying that the . . .

Prabhupāda: But what is the use of his saying, if he is saying today something, tomorrow he will say something else? What is the use of his saying?

Govinda dāsī: Well, there are a number of people who also accept what he is saying.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. One fool is followed by another. That is another thing. But with this changing, then what is the value of his saying? And apart from that, there is Radhakrishnan's statement that Lord Kṛṣṇa, the person, er, the spirit within. That is Radhakrishnan's philosophy. This is not applicable to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa . . . we have got inside soul; outside, this material body. Kṛṣṇa is all-spiritual, therefore He has no such distinction, "inside" or "outside." We conditioned souls, we are inside, the soul; outside, this material body. And it is changing. Today I have got this body, next another body, next another body. Therefore I as spirit soul, Brahman, I am different from my body. Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Kṛṣṇa has no changing. He is Supreme Brahman. He hasn't got to change. Without changing He can be present anywhere and everywhere. That is His . . .

So Dr. Radhakrishnan's statement, it is wrong, and we protest that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we condemn him, that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and still he is writing commentary on Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Gandhi, he also, they . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3): out of millions and millions people, somebody has tried to become perfect. That's a fact. Who is eager to become perfect, so many? Nobody cares for it. "Hah! Let me enjoy life." Kṛṣṇa also says the same thing: manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, "Somebody tries to become perfect," and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ, "and those who have become perfect, out of many of them, one may know Me."

So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy. Even those who have become perfect, they cannot understand. So the Radhakrishnan, how he can understand? He is not perfect even. Amongst the perfect also it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. So we see that. Gandhi says that, "I don't believe that there was any person ever living as Kṛṣṇa." Just see. This is the position of big, big, so-called big men. They do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And still they have the audacity to write comments on Gītā. So what will Gaurasundara will understand? Therefore why has he changed?

Paramahaṁsa: Gaurasundara is using . . . Kṛṣṇa as separate from His body?

Govinda dāsī: No, the spiritual master is not, I don't think . . . the spiritual master should not be served on the material platform but like we are serving. He considers all this on the material platform, our service to you directly, our service to Your Divine Grace.

Prabhupāda: Then he does not know . . .

Govinda dāsī: That's a low-level sentiment.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual activities are not on the material platform.

Govinda dāsī: The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . (sounds in background)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you take one almirah? This big almirah?

Devotee: All right.

Prabhupāda: So that "inside," "outside" is not for Kṛṣṇa.

Govinda dāsī: It's not for the spiritual master either.

Prabhupāda: Yes, not for the spiritual master.

Govinda dāsī: It's not to be applied to the spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Govinda dāsī: It's not to be applied to the spiritual master, either, just like . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . I mean, I consider you to be completely on the spiritual platform . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained: sākṣād-dharitvena. He is directly like. That is to be understood. That's a fact. If somebody thinks that he has got a material body, even if one thinks that is material body, that body is not acting materially. The body is acting as spiritual. So even you say that he has got a material body, the body is no more acting materially—therefore it is spiritual.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes . . . (indistinct)

Govinda dāsī: And he also, this attitude . . . and this has been ever since he first left, since the first time, when he first left, and has continued as his attitude. Since the first time actually he took . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Even Vaiṣṇava . . .

Govinda dāsī: . . . that all spiritual masters are the same.

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava . . . vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhi: anything that is spiritually engaged, that is spiritual. Why the spiritual master? Anything. Now this table (knocks on table), it is used for spiritual purpose—therefore it is spiritual. The temple . . . why the temple was? Because temple is not an ordinary thing. It is used for spiritual purpose. Everything is used.

Paramahaṁsa: The example of Lord Caitanya carrying Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Devotee: Er, excuse me. There is that one Indian doctor, the lady doctor who came to see you last time, she came, and she want to know if she can see you now or sometime . . .

Prabhupāda: No, she can come. So anything engaged in spiritual service . . . the example is the iron rod put into the fire. Everyone knows it is iron rod, but it acts as fire. (break) So why not anything which is always engaged in spiritual service is not spiritual? Where is the difficulty to understand? Anyone who has no other business than spiritual, then he is spiritual. The same example: when the rod is not acting as iron rod but acting as fire, so what is the objection to call it fire? Actually it is burning. Why it should be iron? Eh? Where is the argument? So anyone—spiritual master or anyone—who is twenty-four-hours engaged in spiritual service, he is spiritual. Even though he has got this material body, he is spiritual . . . aiye!

Indian lady: Namaskāra.

Prabhupāda: Namaskāra.

Indian Lady: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Accha. Besh . . . (Okay. Fine . . .) Bālajī?

Indian lady: Ah, Bālajī.

Paramahaṁsa: The example of Lord Caitanya carrying the body of Haridāsa Ṭhākura is evidence that the body is perfectly spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to argue, this is the argument, logic. So how you can refute it? An iron rod, you put into the fire. Everyone knows that it is iron rod. And when it is red hot, then even though you know it is iron rod, but it is fire. Similarly, material body, when it is saturated with spiritual activities, it is no more material. What is material and spiritual, what is the distinction? The distinction is that when we forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Now we say it is day because there is light, and when there is no light it is night. But where is the situation changed? The situation is the same: the same planet, the same tree, the same house. Now we say it is day, and at night the same house, the same land, the same tree, it will be night. So what is the difference? The difference is presence and absence of the sun. So on account of presence and absence of Kṛṣṇa things become material and spiritual. If you keep yourself always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you are spiritual, and if you forget Kṛṣṇa, material. Just like the sky. The sky is always clear, but when there is occasional appearance of the cloud then you say the sky is not clear. Sky is always clear. When it is covered by the cloud it is called not clear. Clearness means surpassing the condition of not-clearness.

Paramahaṁsa: Surpassing the condition of what?

Prabhupāda: (to guest) You can come here. So if you keep always in clear condition, then it is all right. That is Brahman. And if you bring cloud, then it is material, polluted. So the cloud is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Consciousness is there. If you keep it always Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is spiritual, and if you bring some other consciousness—material things—then it is material consciousness. Consciousness is already there. That the sky is already there, you bring in clouds, then it is not clear . . . the whole night cloudy sky, and then as soon as the cloud is cleared, the sky is very nice. Similarly, we are trying to bring Kṛṣṇa, or clear sky. That is our program. Actually that is the condition of sky. Sky is always clear. Some portion, it becomes dark on account of; tiny portion. When this Hawaii, it is cloudy, it does not mean the whole sky is cloudy. Millions and millions of miles you go out of the cloud you will see everything clear. By aeroplane you have got experience. Downward the plane you will find some clouds, say few thousand miles, but what is few thousand miles in the sky? Few million miles also is nothing. Therefore the spiritual world is unlimited. It is only, only portion—this material world—little portion. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā (BG 10.42). Only a little portion, this material world. Not that this material world is a, I mean . . . no. The sky is expanding four billion miles up and down, this diameter. Even a few million miles covered by cloud, what is that? How many millions make a billion?


Prabhupāda: Hundred million?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, I think so.

Prabhupāda: Or thousand million? There is . . . so this question of billions of miles, so say even one million of miles becomes cloudy. That is not joke, one million miles; you cannot imagine. Twenty-five thousand miles, finish our world. What is the question of million? If you go twenty-five thousand miles, then the world area is finished. So this question of millions . . . millions, many millions, billion and such four billion. That is the space. So even hundred miles, two hundred miles, that is cloudy, it doesn't affect the sky, neither the sun. We are affected. Our eyes are covered. We say: "There is no sun." We are affected; not that there is no God, there is no sun. We are poor fellow. Our teeny knowledge is affected, and we say there is no sun. Just like same, rabbit philosophy: close the eyes—there is no enemy . . . the enemy is in front, to kill him. He, out of fear, closes the eyes, and he thinks there is no enemy. And the maṇḍūka, kūpa-maṇḍūka, three-feet water, he thinks that this is the area of water. And if he is informed about the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, what he will understand? And every one of these rascals, they are trying to understand God from his standard of understanding. Kūpa-maṇḍūka. Just like the frog is trying to understand Atlantic Ocean by measuring the well, that's all. This is position. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the real position. Paraṁ bhāvam. Paraṁ bhāvam, ajānanto—without any knowledge.

So we have to take knowledge of God from God. That we have got. Don't manufacture your God. Rascal, that will never be successful. All the rascals, they are manufacturing their own God, and this is being supported: yato mata tato patha. (addressing Indian lady) Apni jana? Yato mata tato patha.

Indian lady: Ki?

Prabhupāda: Yato mata tato patha.

Indian lady: Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . roads.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekaṁ, but these rascals say: "No, no, you can manufacture anything, and you can go."

Paramahaṁsa: Is that what Siddha says?

Govinda dāsī: Siddha? More or less.

Prabhupāda: But that is the way, that . . .

Govinda dāsī: That all the ways are the same. That . . .

Prabhupāda: "You are perfect, I am perfect." If I say you are imperfect, then I become.

Indian lady: They are using that in psychology now, "I'm okay, you're are okay." And then next they say the same connection, you know.

Guest: "I'm okay, you are okay." It's a philosophy, so everything's all right. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am okay. You are not okay. You surrender." That is it.

Paramahaṁsa: The psychologists now, they . . .

Indian lady: They are using the same philosophy.

Prabhupāda: They have no other way, because they are imperfect. So if I say: "You are imperfect," then I remain imperfect.

Indian lady: No, but they are saying that, "You are all right and I am all right."

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, unless I say you are all right, how I can become all right?

Indian lady: This is why they are using this.

Prabhupāda: This is the reason. This is the reason. If I say: "You are not all right," then you will say: "You are also not perfect." (laughter)

Paramahaṁsa: And I want you . . .

Prabhupāda: Just to make a compromise.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So I am right, you are right.

Paramahaṁsa: Because you don't want anyone to say that . . .

Prabhupāda: He's wrong! (laughter)

Govinda dāsī: The thing is accepted . . .

Indian lady: Yes. They don't dig up your past, and they don't have to know anything about, so you become more equal with them, and then they accept you as you are. It is working better with the . . .

Prabhupāda: What is working?

Indian lady: This concept.

Prabhupāda: "That is working" means you do not die?

Indian lady: No, but . . . you're going to die.

Prabhupāda: Then why . . . how it is working?

Govinda dāsī: More or less there are so many . . .

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by working?

Indian lady: It means that this problem they are raising . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the problem?

Indian lady: You are . . .

Prabhupāda: Your problem is that you do not wish to die, but you will die. That is the real problem.

Indian lady: I think we want to die, that we can't avoid it.

Prabhupāda: Then where is your problem solved?

Indian lady: That is I . . .

Prabhupāda: You make a compromise. The problem is not solved. Your problem is, "I do not want to die." You are sitting, now there is something, danger, signal, immediately you will be afraid, "What shall I do?" That means you do not want to die. This is your problem.

Indian lady: As long as we have fear of death, we are not free.

Prabhupāda: There must be death, and there must be fear. Then where is your problem solved? That is foolishness, "Now okay, everything is okay." What is okay?

Paramahaṁsa: Nothing is okay.

Prabhupāda: They are foolishness. Where you are okay? (laughter)

Paramahaṁsa: And when you say like that, they say: "You are a pessimist."

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. But you cannot say okay. (laughter)

Devotee: You are a realist.

Prabhupāda: These are rascals, simply rascals.

Paramahaṁsa: It's like the rabbits.

Prabhupāda: You say?

Paramahaṁsa: If they can . . .

Prabhupāda: They say okay. Close the eyes and "Okay."

Paramahaṁsa: Everything is okay. And they look at each other and say: "It's okay, it's okay, it's okay . . ." but all around them is death, but they are helping keeping themself in illusion, helping keep each other in illusion.

Indian lady: But let me explain to you that they know also that they are okay.

Paramahaṁsa: But they are not. That's illusion, though.

Indian lady: But they are not okay, but still it makes them feel okay that, "If he is all right, I am also all right." So . . .

Prabhupāda: That is called frog philosophy.

Indian lady: What is?

Prabhupāda: Frog philosophy. (laughter)

Paramahaṁsa: Frog philosophy.

Prabhupāda: The frog within the well, three-feet water.

Indian lady: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He thinks, "My knowledge of water is complete." But when his friend says: "Oh, there is vast water," "What is that, four feet? All right, five feet?" He will calculate, "Three feet? All right, little more? Four feet? Come on. Six feet? Ten feet?" He cannot think of actually what is Pacific Ocean. He is making "okay," like that.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Three to four, four to five, five to six.

Paramahaṁsa: It seems like . . .

Prabhupāda: He does not know any number of feet he will increase, it is not okay.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He does not know.

Paramahaṁsa: People want to be in illusion that it's okay so that they can enjoy more nicely, because if they are not feeling that it's okay, that there is some danger, then they can't be in the enjoying spirit as much. They can't have the spirit of enjoyment. So to be able to enjoy the world better, they like to have a mind which is . . .

Prabhupāda: Crippled. (laughter)

Paramahaṁsa: Crippled. (laughs) They would say relaxed. Illusioned.

Govinda dāsī: They don't want to be in anxiety.

Prabhupāda: That is their opinion.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to know the truth, because that would . . .

Prabhupāda: That is called kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya, a crippled mind. A frog in the well. The same philosophy.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to know.

Indian lady: Yeah, they don't want to know the truth. It hurts.

Paramahaṁsa: Because then it would make it so they would not enjoy it so nicely.

Indian lady: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: They would also have to change.

Indian lady: . . . (indistinct)

Paramahaṁsa: They are . . . everybody is always continually trying to forget death. They have so many ways to try to forget.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is advised by . . . I think Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that the karmīs should think always that he will never die; otherwise he cannot work.

Paramahaṁsa: He can't enjoy. He can't do anything.

Prabhupāda: And those who are jñānīs, they should think always, "I may die immediately." That is the difference between karmī and jñānī.

Paramahaṁsa: "I may die immediately"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Is there any guarantee that you will not die immediately?

Indian lady: When we think that, then we are . . .

Prabhupāda: You think—it is a fact. You think or not think.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is a fact. Therefore I was saying the other day that to die, there is no wonder, but to live, that is wonder. Because you can die at any moment. So you are still living, that is wonder.

Indian lady: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And death, everyone knows, "I will die." So where is wonder? Nobody won't die. So death is not wonder. To live is wonder. Therefore we should utilize the lifetime properly, not a single moment lost. Then it will . . . living is wonder. Death is not wonder. Any moment you can die. And they are happily running this car—at any moment he can die. Is there any insurance that they will not die? There is insurance of car accident, but there is no insurance that he will not die. Just go to one insurance company that you will not die. Then you will be prosecuted. So this is a fact. Death is not wonder; to live is wonder.

That Khaṭvāṅga-rāja, he joined with the demigods to fight with the demons. So the demigods were very much pleased. They wanted to give some benediction, "You have done so much for us. You take some benediction." He first of all questioned, "Now what is the duration of my life, left, balance?" Then they said: "Your duration of life is one moment," according to their calculations. So he immediately thought it wise, "Then what is the use of your benediction? Let me take sannyāsa." This is intelligence, that "I am living; this is wonder. I can die at any moment. So I have to finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business." So not a single moment should be wasted. This is . . . that I can die at any moment, and if you do not finish my Kṛṣṇa consciousness business before death, then I do not know how I am going to change my body. If I finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business, then, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), then I can go back to home, back to Godhead. If I do not finish, then I will have to change this body. Yes. That is seriousness of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Labdhvā sudurlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte mānuṣyam arthadam (SB 11.9.29). I have got this body, human form of body, after evolution of so many species and forms of life. They do not know. They are doomed to . . . (indistinct)

So one who will mislead him, he is his friend, and one who will speak the real truth . . .

Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to hear you.

Prabhupāda: "Swami is very conservative," they say. "Bhaktivedanta Swami is very conservative." Can I change my . . . (indistinct)? "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Because I do not say: "Whatever you like, you do; whatever you like, you drink; whatever you like . . ." There is no . . .

Paramahaṁsa: "You're okay, I'm okay."

Prabhupāda: "Everything okay." That I do not. Therefore I am not popular.

Paramahaṁsa: They do not want to hear of their actual position.

Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Just now you were saying people do not like it.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. No, I am saying, that . . . yes. (laughs)

Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct)

Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to hear . . . if you say: "You are going to die," they immediately get mad at you, "Don't tell me about that. I don't want to know about that." (laughter) "I almost forgot. I was just forgetting that." (laughs) People are amazed that we are always talking about death. They don't want to talk about death. They don't want to hear about death. They hide death; they don't want to think of it in any way. But it seems that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have heard many big men that say, "Why you bother about death?" You are dying at every moment, before the actual death. They say. Because you are bothering about death, that means before actual death you are dying every moment. Death, "Why you care for death? Let it come when it will come." That is their philosophy.

Paramahaṁsa: It means they are afraid of . . .

Prabhupāda: You are afraid of death, that means before actual death you are simply dying. You have no enjoyment of life. This is their argument.

Devotee: Sometimes their philosophy is, "Death is just one moment and life is many, many moments. So why not think about life?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: But that means that they are afraid of death.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I know their argument.

Indian lady: No, but the ones who know that they are going to die, if they have . . .

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . blinking eyes.

Paramahaṁsa: The devotee is . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore I have said the karmīs shall forget about death, then they will be able to work.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Hard, like ass. The ass does not know, like that. He loads the body, tons of clothes, washerman. So remain ass. Karmī means ass. The karmi, they are compared with ass.

Paramahaṁsa: There is that story . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like this tomato, so many tomatoes. I'll eat . . . I may eat one or two. But why they are collecting so much? So these rascal karmī, they are collecting money, collecting money, eat. So there will be used only a few dollars. Therefore they are ass. You don't require so much money, and he will pick all the girlfriends to go there and talk . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: They will find some ridiculous use for it, if they have it.

Paramahaṁsa: That is difficult. They have a hard time finding money.

Prabhupāda: Ass means he does not know his actual interest. He'll eat some grass, and the grass is available everywhere, but he is thinking that "If I do not carry the load of the washerman I'll not get." This is ass.

Indian lady: Grass . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Indian lady: (indistinct Hindi) . . . you call it grass. Something . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the ass eats grass.

Indian lady: Oh, the ass eats grass. Oh.

Prabhupāda: So grass is available everywhere, but he has become the servant of the washerman because the washerman gives some grass. After taking his service, carrying tons of cloth, he cannot move. He is doing that. He is thinking, "I must have to do this because otherwise this washerman will not give me grass." He does not need anything more than the grass, a few morsels. As soon as the ass comes to the destination, then the load is taken away and he is given some grass, and he stands there whole day. Again he will load. So why he is standing, thinking himself as dependent on the washerman? Because he is thinking, "The washerman is giving me grass." He does not think that, "I can get grass anywhere sufficiently. Why shall I remain a servant of the washerman?" That is ass quality, mūḍhā. They can get very easily their food, huh, by plowing some land with some bull. But they are starting big, big industry. Big, big. Why? And the land is neglected. They are not growing food grains, they are growing sugarcane, the others, pineapple. Who will eat so much sugar, pine? No. They will do business. This is capitalism. Therefore the Communists, they are revolting, "Why shall I serve him?" (end)