760205 - Morning Walk - Mayapur
Prabhupāda: . . . kinds of rascals.
Hṛdayānanda: One theory is that there has always . . . the material nature has always existed. It was never created, and it will never be annihilated, and there is no other cause. It's simply an eternal fact.
Prabhupāda: But how always existed? Nothing here ever exists . . . this house was never existed. It's created.
Hṛdayānanda: But the elements existed.
Prabhupāda: Elements exist, that's all right, but the format, how it is created?
Hṛdayānanda: They say it's not created. It's an eternal, unexplainable fact.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then he is a foolish. Then he is rascal. Immediately rascal is captured.
Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . pucha ki tum jao Prabhupāda ji ke pas . . . (indistinct) (He said: "You should go to Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break)
Prabhupāda: Unexplainable, that means why he is trying to explain, rascal? Immediately captured.
Harikeśa: You may all laugh now, but in the future we're going to find a solution.
Prabhupāda: That is another rascaldom. "I am rascal, and future I am going to be very intelligent." Talk of presence. You are, at the present moment, you are rascal. That's all. Don't talk. Rascal cannot talk.
Hṛdayānanda: Another theory which is taught . . .
Prabhupāda: So this theory is rascaldom. Then another theory . . .?
Hṛdayānanda: Is that actually God created everything, but after creation God is no lon . . .
Prabhupāda: No, then . . . no, that's all right, "God created everything." That means acceptance of God. Then we come to the science of God, what is God.
Hṛdayānanda: Well, God created, but now God is . . .
Prabhupāda: Don't imagine. I am asking what is the current theory.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, that God is . . . God now is in a dormant condition.
Harikeśa: God is dead.
Prabhupāda: God is dead. After creating, He is dead.
Harikeśa: He used Himself up.
Hṛdayānanda: No, but, no, they say . . . no, that's not what they say. They say that God created, and now God is in a dormant condition.
Prabhupāda: Whatever condition, there is God. That you have to accept.
Prabhupāda: Now, what is that God?
Hṛdayānanda: Well, God does not directly take part in the material creation. He simply created.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but He creates by His energy. Just like I am creating this institution, but I am not doing directly, but my men or my assistants, they are doing it. (trumpeting sound) What is this sound?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Intercom.
Prabhupāda: So why this intercom? Inter . . .?
Hṛdayānanda: To speak from one room to another.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It connects the pūjārī room and . . . it connects the pūjārī room, the office, your secretary, and up here, Bhavānanda Mahārāja. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . accepted, now He created and that . . . what is that next? Explain.
Hṛdayānanda: Now God is dormant, in a dormant condition.
Prabhupāda: What is that dormant?
Hṛdayānanda: He has no more activity. He simply created, and now He has no more activity.
Prabhupāda: Well, "no more activities," that's all right, but He is active. Suppose I am walking. I may not walk half an hour. That means I have got the capacity of walking. That you cannot say, that my walk . . . because I have now stopped walking, you cannot say that I cannot walk. Is another nonsense. How you can say "dormant"? He is active.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dormant implies He was active.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Was active, He is active, but you, you rascal, you cannot see. You cannot say: "Once He was active. Now He is no more active. He has finished His activity." That you cannot say. Dormant? What do you mean by dormant? Huh? Dormant means potential. He can act. And He is acting. That acting, you have to learn how He is acting. He appears to be not acting, but He is acting. That is knowledge. Just like aeroplane is running. A intelligent man knows that, "The pilot is there. He is acting. Therefore it is running." And a foolish man will say, "The aeroplane is going automatically." That is the question of observation. A foolish boy . . . I have given this example many times, that I was thinking that in the fan there is a ghost. But the idea is, there must be somebody. Although I was a child . . . I could not explain how the fan is running in my childhood. I was thinking there must be some ghost. And in the gramophone box I was thinking there must be one man within this box. So this is foolish thinking, but I was convinced that without somebody, it cannot sing or it cannot run. Even one is very innocent child, he can think like that. So whole thing is going on, prakṛti, the activities of material nature . . . just like there was cloud and rain. Now it is not raining. So there is activity already. It is being managed. So you cannot say that God is dormant. He is acting because His creation is acting, and God says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My direction the nature is working." How you can say He is dormant? The nature is working.
Harikeśa: Well, just like a man may make a chemical reaction in the beginning by mixing two or three chemicals, but then the reaction takes place by itself. It doesn't need the man once he started it.
Prabhupāda: No, doesn't need the man . . . he is needed for another reaction. That will not take automatically.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So another theory is, why you have to say that there is a cause? It was always there. There was no cause. It was always there . . .
Prabhupāda: No, it is caused. Why do you say: "God created"?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we say there is no God, and the creation was always there. There's no question of it not being there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was always there. There was always . . .
Harikeśa: It's eternal.
Jagadīśa: Conservation of energy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's eternal. There's no question of any creator being required. It is there.
Prabhupāda: No. Then why do you say: "God created and He became . . .?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't say.
Prabhupāda: He said.
Hṛdayānanda: He's another rascal. (laughter)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has . . . he is some sentimentalist, a fanatic, religious fanatic.
Prabhupāda: Then you talk. He said: "God created." You say not. Then you talk. Now you decide. Now he has accused you that you are a nonsense.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a religious fanatic. I told him, he's a religious fanatic.
Prabhupāda: Not fanatic. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have no explanation, so you're simply giving it the name "God."
Prabhupāda: No, why not explanation? Why not explanation that, "Nature is working"? He said that "God is dormant. God created," and he accepted. And "God is dormant. He is not doing anything." But no, that's not the fact. The nature's work is going on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nature is going on.
Prabhupāda: So the nature is directed by God.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Why not?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not. It's moving of its own accord.
Prabhupāda: Then he is another rascal. Nature cannot work automatically. Just like mother, nature mother. The mother cannot produce child without father.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Father and mother required.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So how do you say: "The mother is producing child without any father"? That you cannot say.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but why are you comparing nature to a father and mother?
Prabhupāda: This is also nature. Everything is nature. Are you outside nature? That is another nonsense. Your body is nature; your activities are nature; everything is nature. How you can say you are out of nature? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). He has got some intelligence, I have got some intelligence, but the intelligence is coming from nature. Otherwise how you are intelligent? Somebody is intelligent; somebody is dull. Unless there is some background, how do you find the difference? Here you see some flower is red, some flower white. How it is being done? You cannot say "automatically."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we say . . . we agree, everything came originally from some elements.
Prabhupāda: That "some" He has explained. He is God.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we don't . . . we say that those elements were always there. There is no need of any creator of those elements. They were always there.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are the basic elements.
Prabhupāda: Yes, "always there," but there must have been creation of these elements. Just like in the laboratory, you . . . soda bicarb. Carbonate mixed with soda makes soda bicarb. Sulfuric acid. You take sulphur and turn into acid by mixing with something else. That is going on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the original elements were there. There's no need of any creator.
Prabhupāda: You are already . . . that you know, do not know, but the original elements also produced. That is not automatic. Anything you are taking.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we have no . . . how can you say what happened so many years ago?
Prabhupāda: We don't say: "So many years." We say it is created by . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your proof?
Prabhupāda: Proof? What proof you want?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, what is your proof of what happened millions of years ago at the beginning of creation? You say that . . .
Prabhupāda: No, the same thing is going on. Millions of years there was sunrise. Now sunrise is still going on. Do you think that millions of years there was no sunrise? It is going on. The same thing is going on now here. Because you are foolish, you cannot see. Nothing has changed. The same thing is going on. Millions of years the father-mother combined and there was child, and that is going on still.
Harikeśa: Oh, no. No, no, no. That's only been going on for about three thousand years.
Hṛdayānanda: No, no, even the scientists don't say that.
Harikeśa: Yeah. Four or five thousand years.
Hṛdayānanda: No, no, no. Scientists don't say that.
Harikeśa: At most, fifteen thousand years, they say.
Hṛdayānanda: No, no, no, they don't say that. You have to keep up to date. It makes good arguments.
Harikeśa: What do you mean?
Hṛdayānanda: They don't . . . they say now millions of years.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What? Human beings?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes. How to present good arguments.
Harikeśa: Millions of years?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, they say that.
Jagadīśa: One scientist said that.
Hṛdayānanda: No, no, no. It's accepted.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, I've seen many quotes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was in an anthropology department. They don't accept millions of years. They said forty thousand years ago there were no . . .
Prabhupāda: And what was before forty thousand years?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Apes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And where from the apes came?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lesser . . . lesser-mentality beings. Everything originated . . .
Prabhupāda: So anything is a development. That is, therefore, called Darwin's theory of evolution. But where the evolution begins? That is the question.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It begins from these primordial elements.
Prabhupāda: So where that elements came?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were always there. They are eternal.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then why you say: "From this time it begun"? Everything is eternal. There is no question of beginning.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why" is because it developed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. All rascals, simply rascals.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's not very easy for us to give good argument with these bogus . . .
Harikeśa: We can't even keep up with their theories.
Hṛdayānanda: The main argument among the philosophers, the atheistic philosophers, is that "God could not exist because if God existed, if God were good, then why would we be suffering? God would stop our suffering."
Prabhupāda: Because you are criminal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. If your father's good . . .
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, it is criminal. That is . . . you say that there are so many persons in the state. Not all of them are suffering in the prison house. Only the criminals. So that is the proof that you are a criminal.
Hṛdayānanda: God could have . . . God could have created me in such a way that I would never have fallen down.
Prabhupāda: He has created, but He has given you independence.
Jagadīśa: God wants us to enjoy.
Kāśirāma: Why has He given us that independence if in that independence we . . .?
Prabhupāda: Then you are not living being. You are dull stone. God does not want that you remain a stone.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Free will" means living being.
Hari-śauri: But if he gave us the material world to enjoy, then why do we have to suffer here?
Prabhupāda: No, no, enjoyments . . . you do not know what is enjoyment. You suffer. Just like you are voracious eater. You eat and then suffer. Then no eating. That means you are nonsense. You do not know how much to eat. Just like you require little salt with your food, and if you put one sea of salt, then that is your foolishness. Because salt has to be eaten, it does not mean that you bring the whole ocean to make it salty. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). That is the instruction.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if you know how to . . .
Prabhupāda: Whatever direction is there, you take that. The medicine is given. Doctor gives direction, "So many drops you can take." Now you say: "Oh, the good medicine. Let me eat the whole thing. I can become cured immediately." Then you die. You have to take, enjoy—but according to direction. God does not say that, "You don't enjoy." You are, what is called, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). A living entity means ānandamaya, enjoyment. But that ānanda, where it is permanent ānanda, how we have to reach that permanent ānanda, that is being taught. Otherwise, you foolish, you'll eat the whole medicine and die. That's all. Therefore the varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma means that is real human civilization. There is direction that, "You enjoy like this." And if you become mlecchas and yavanas, then you'll not enjoy. You'll simply suffer. You do not know how to enjoy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if one abides by the law of God, then he can become happy.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: God has made that arrangement.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in Viṣṇu Purāṇa.
- puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān
- viṣṇur ārādhyate panthā
- nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam
- (CC Madhya 8.58)
That is said, varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, unless one comes to the regulation of varṇāśrama-dharma, that is not human civilization. That is actually the fact. That is the same dog's society. That is going on. If there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified brāhmaṇa, who will give direction? There is no . . . if there is no kṣatriya, then who will give protection? If there is no vaiśya, then who will produce food? And if there is no śūdra, then who will work for general assistance? This is scientific.
Harikeśa: You have defeated us all again.
Harikeśa: We are all defeated.
Prabhupāda: Without varṇāśrama-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. And after sannyāsa, then spiritual life complete, śuddha-sattva. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to establish varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāra. Ācāra. Ācāra. Varṇāśrama ācāra. Yes. Because the aim is . . . again we come to the . . . just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied. Then you'll get everything nicely. Similarly, the supreme government or supreme governor is God. That is your duty, to keep Him satisfied. Then you get all direction, all facilities and life. That is the aim. But these rascals, they do not know what is government or who is the governor. They are doing anything whimsically, and they're punished. Prakṛti is there. Prakṛti is there. Government does not want that you suffer, but you violate the government's law. Therefore you suffer. That these rascals do not understand. They declare, "There is no government." So this is foolishness, ignorance, mūḍha. There is government, he sees, and still he is rascal. He says: "No, no, I don't care for anyone. There is no government." That is atheism, that is hooliganism.
Hṛdayānanda: So the so-called . . .
Prabhupāda: He is dying. He doesn't want to die, but still he says: "There is no authority." He's suffering. He is becoming old. He doesn't want to become old, but he is so rascal, he does not question, "Why I am becoming old?" So therefore they are all rascals. He says: "I am independent," but he is forced to do something, and still he is independent. What is the remedy? Just like prisoner. He doesn't want to obey. The . . . a constable comes and kicks him, slaps him. Still, he says: "No, I am independent. I don't care for you." What is this? Hmm? Chalao, na to bhoy. (Go on, I don't fear.)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, it's time to go downstairs, if you want to walk outside . . .
Prabhupāda: What is the time?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five minutes past seven now.
Prabhupāda: So they have not come, the workers?
Jagadīśa: They are there. (break)
Hari-śauri: . . . without birth, death, disease and old age, then we can simply say that, "You already were like that before, but you gave it up because of your mentality."
Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?
Hari-śauri: A person already has the position where he doesn't have to experience birth, death, old age, like that. So if they argue like that, "Why doesn't God give us that position where we can enjoy without God consciousness . . .?"
Prabhupāda: God has given, giving you the position that, "You obey Me, and you get the position," but because you are rascal—you are not obeying—you are suffering.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like a hog takes stool instead of sweetmeat. The hoggish mentality.
Prabhupāda: That is God's mercy, that he wants to eat stool, and God has given you, "All right, you eat stool. Take this body."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not that God is not offering him sweetmeats, but the rascal won't eat them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got such a body that he does not relish sweetmeat.
Gurukula boys: Jaya Prabhupāda! Haribol!
Kāśirāma: Śrīla Prabhupāda, why do we have this rascal propensity?
Kāśirāma: Why do we have this rascal propensity?
Prabhupāda: Because you are rascal. That is the only reason. Because you are rascal.
Gurukula boys: Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa (end)