751013 - Lecture BG 13.01-3 - Durban

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



751013BG-DURBAN - October 13, 1975 - 57:05 Minutes



Prabhupāda: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. We are reading one chapter from Bhagavad-gītā, Thirteenth Chapter. The subject matter is nature, the enjoyer and consciousness. In Sanskrit it is called kṣetra-kṣetra-jña (BG 13.27). Kṣetra means the field. Just like an agriculturist, they work on the field. The worker or the agriculturist owns the land, and he works there, and according to his labor he enjoys the fruits. Similarly, we have been given this body as the field of activity. Every one of us, not only human being, but also other living entities...

There are eight million four hundred thousand forms of living entities. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. In the water there are nine hundred thousand forms of living entity. Then, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Sthāvarāḥ means the living entities who cannot move, just like the trees, plants, grass, vegetables. They are standing in one place. They are also called "having no leg." Ahastāni sahastānām apadāni catuṣ-padām. This is nature's law, that the living entities which have no hands, they are eatable for the living entities who have hands. Ahastāni sahastānām apadāni catuṣ-padām. And the living entities which cannot move, they are the food for the living entities which has got four legs. Phalgūni mahatāṁ tatra jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. In this way, the weak is the food for the strong.

This is the law of nature, that one living entity is the food for another living entity. So when a person eats another living entity, it is not unnatural. This is nature's law. But when you come to the human form of living entity, you must use your discrimination. Just like one living entity is food for the another living entity, it does not mean... In the lower animals sometimes the father-mother eat the offspring, but in the history of human society it has not come into notice that the father-mother eating the offspring. But time has come when the mother is killing offspring. That has come already. This is due to Kali-yuga.

So here Arjuna's question is to understand the field and the worker on the field. He questions—arjuna uvāca. Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa,

prakṛtiṁ puruṣaṁ caiva
kṣetraṁ kṣetra-jñam eva ca
etad veditum icchāmi
jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ ca keśava
(BG 13.1)

Kṛṣṇa's another name is Keśava. So he is addressing Kṛṣṇa, "My dear Keśava, I want to know these subject matters—prakṛti, puruṣa." Prakṛti means nature, material nature, and puruṣa means the enjoyer, just like the living entities. We are trying to enjoy this material nature. Another prakṛti-puruṣa... Puruṣa means..., real puruṣa means the supreme enjoyer, God, Kṛṣṇa. And prakṛti means which is enjoyed. Another meaning—prakṛti means woman, and puruṣa means man. So this material world is going on—one party is trying to enjoy, and the other party is being enjoyed. So Arjuna wanted to know what is the distinction, what is the integral part and parcel of this prakṛti and puruṣa.

Then kṣetraṁ kṣetra-jña. Jña means one who knows, and kṣetra-jña means one who knows the field. Just like the agriculturist, the cultivator, he knows that "This is my field." He works there. Different cultivator works in his own field. So this kṣetra means this body, kṣetra, the field of activity. We have got different field of activities. So kṣetraṁ kṣetra-jñaṁ ca, kṣetram eva etad veditum icchāmi: "My dear Kṛṣṇa, I want to know from You." Why he wants to know from Kṛṣṇa? Because Kṛṣṇa is infallible. Whatever knowledge we get from the infallible, that is perfect knowledge. Ordinary human being, they are not perfect. Ordinary human being, they are subjected to four deficiencies. We are ordinary human being; we commit mistake. That's a fact, every one of us. We are illusioned. Our senses are imperfect. And with all this paraphernalia, when we want to teach, that is not teaching; that is cheating. Because I am imperfect, how can I be teacher? That is not possible. Therefore we have to learn from a person who has no defects in his life, or a liberated person. Liberated person means he does not commit mistake, he is not illusioned, he does not cheat, and his senses are not imperfect. This is the four signs of liberated person.

So our process, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, means we take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, who is liberated from these four kinds of deficiencies. That knowledge is perfect. Similarly, Arjuna is also inquiring from Kṛṣṇa. Etad veditum icchāmi. Etad veditum icchāmi jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ ca keśava: what is actual knowledge and what is the subject matter of knowledge. That means six questions are presented by Arjuna before Kṛṣṇa. One pair, prakṛti-puruṣa, kṣetra-kṣetra-jña, and jñānaṁ jñeyam, what is knowledge and what is the subject matter of knowledge. Six questions. Śrī bhagavān uvāca. Now, here Kṛṣṇa is speaking, but Vyāsadeva, who recorded this dialogue between Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, he is writing, "bhagavān uvāca." He does not say "kṛṣṇaḥ uvāca." "Kṛṣṇa" may be misunderstood, but Kṛṣṇa is bhagavān. He wants to stress on this point. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated by Vyāsadeva that kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Similarly, in the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvara means controller.

So parama means the supreme. So every one of us, we are more or less controller. But we are not supreme controller. We must know this. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). There are some men who claim to become īśvara, to become God. So we have no objection, that if somebody says, "I am god" or "I am controller," we have no objection. But if somebody says that "I am supreme God," or "supreme controller," then we have got objection. Supreme means he has no controller. And ordinary controller, just like we are... You are controller. You are controlling some sphere of life. I am also controlling some. But I also being controlled. But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ means He is the supreme controller. He has no controller over Him. He controls everyone, but He is not controlled by anyone. Therefore it is called,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
(Bs. 5.1)

These are the Vedic statement. And our process of knowledge, Veda... Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda vido jñāne. Supreme knowledge, perfect knowledge, that is Veda.

So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme person. He is the speaker of Vedas. The subject matter of Vedas is to know Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If you are a student of Vedas, then you must have clear conception of God. That is real knowledge—no vague idea, but clear conception. That is knowledge, Vedic knowledge, ultimate... Therefore the Vedānta philosophy. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the ultimate. Everything has got ultimate. So Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge of Vedas. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You will find in the Fifteenth Chapter, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛd ca aham. (break) So He is the compiler of Vedānta philosophy, and He is the knower of Vedānta philosophy. Therefore Arjuna is asking from Kṛṣṇa because He is the ultimate knowle... And ultimate, supreme person means Bhagavān. Bhaga means opulence, and vān means one who possesses. The word Sanskrit, vat, it is added when there is the question of possessing. Asty arthe vat and mat pratyaya. This is Sanskrit grammar. So bhagavat. Bhaga means opulence. Opulence means six kinds of opulences, ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa: all wealth, all fame, all strength, all beauty, all knowledge, all renunciation. These are the opulences. We can have some money. You have some money, I have got some money, but none of us can claim that "I have got all the monies." That is not possible. That is claimed by Bhagavān. I have got some strength, you have got some strength, but nobody of us can claim that "I have got all the strength." So one who possesses all the wealth, all the strength, all the fame, all beauty, all knowledge, all renunciation, He is called Bhagavān. The meaning of bhagavān is this, ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. Therefore Vyāsadeva says, bhagavān uvāca. He is not ordinary person who is speaking. Who is full with all knowledge, because that is the qualification of Bhagavān. He is competent with all knowledge. So bhagavān uvāca.

So what does He, Bhagavān, says? Idaṁ śarīraṁ kaunteya kṣetram ity abhidhīyate (BG 13.2): "My dear Kaunteya, Arjuna..." Arjuna's another name is Kaunteya because he is the son of Kuntī. His mother's name is Kuntī; therefore he is addressed as Kaunteya. And Kuntī has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Kuntī is the sister of Kṛṣṇa's father, Vasudeva. Therefore out of affection for His aunt, He is addressing Arjuna as the son of His aunt Kuntī, Kaunteya. Idaṁ śarīraṁ kaunteya kṣetram (BG 13.2), the field of activity, ity abhidhīyate. His two answers. Out of the six question—kṣetra, kṣetra-jña, prakṛti, puruṣa, jñānam, jñeyam—He is answering the first two, pair. What is kṣetra? So Kṛṣṇa said, "This body is the kṣetra." Kṣetra means this body. And kṣetra-jña... Etad yo vetti: "This body, one who knows this body," etad yo vetti taṁ prāhuḥ kṣetra-jñaḥ, "he is called kṣetra-jña." Just like I know my body. The pains and pleasure of my body, the necessities of my body, how I am situated in this body—I know. You also know, you, about your body. And my... About my body you do not know what pains and pleasure I am feeling; what pains and pleasure you are feeling, I do not know. But I know the pains and pleasure of my body; you know the pains and pleasure of your body. Therefore, in relationship with your body, you are kṣetra-jña, and in relationship with my body I am kṣetra-jña. My body is kṣetra, the field of activities, and your body is the field of activities.

So this is clear conception of kṣetra and kṣetra-jña. The body is called kṣetra, and the knower of the body... If we simply study our body, if we simply take this question little seriously, "Whether I am this body or I am different from my body?" You study each and every part of your body. You study your finger. You will know or I will know, "It is my finger." I do not say "It is I finger"; "It is my finger." Therefore I am different from my body. Just like I say, "This is my shoe." So I am not the shoe. So similarly, you study every part of your body, you know that it is your body. You are not this body. This is study. This is meditation. First of all study your body, whether you are body or you are different body. That is actually...

The other day I was speaking that a man's father has died, and he is crying, "My father has gone away." So my father..., your father is lying on the bed. The father which you have seen so long, lifelong, the body, that is on the bed. Why you are crying your father is gone? That means he has never seen his father, neither the father has seen the son. Everyone sees this body, but not the owner of the body. That is the defect of modern education, that everyone by contemplation can understand that "This finger is my finger, not 'I' finger." Still, he cannot understand that he is different from this body. That is to be understood. That is real knowledge, kṣetra-kṣetra-jñayor jñānam.

One should have very clear knowledge that "I am not this body. This is my body." You are not this body; it is your body. You are spirit; I am spirit. We are different from this body. This is the first instruction given in the Bhagavad-gītā in the beginning.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

We are not this body. I am not this body; you are not this body. We are changing body every moment, imperceptibly changing body. Sometimes it is found that the child has grown now to become a boy. But he has not become suddenly a boy. The body has changed. Body has changed every minute. But all of a sudden or at a certain moment we see that the body has changed. So this is real knowledge, that "I am not this body. I am changing my body. And when I shall finally change this body I will get another body." This is my position. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13).

So Kṛṣṇa says, etad yo vetti taṁ prāhuḥ kṣetra-jñaḥ iti tad-vidaḥ. If one understands that he is not this body, he is different from this body... From practical example and practical experience one can understand it. Especially human being can understand it. And if the human being neglect this understanding, then he remains animal—sa eva go-kharaḥ. That is the injunction of the śāstra.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
(SB 10.84.13)

Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke. This body, according to Āyurvedic system of medicine, this body is made of three elements—kapha, pitta, vāyu: mucus, bile and cough. So anyway, so tri-dhātuke... This body, is made of material elements. I am spirit soul; I am not material element. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul." This is knowledge. But if one does not take this knowledge, he remains with the bodily concept of life, "I finger," not "my finger," then he is in ignorance. "I head," not "my head." Nobody says "I head." Everyone says "my head." But find out who is "I." This is knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, etad yo vetti: "One who understands this simple education in the beginning," etad yo vetti, "if anyone understands this, that 'I am not this body: I am the owner of the body, I am the occupier of the body...' "

The body is just like a rented house, and there are two interested person. One is the occupier, and the other is the owner. That will be explained, that I am the occupier of this body. I am not actually owner. The owner is Kṛṣṇa, or God. This house is owned by Kṛṣṇa, or God. But just like the field: The agriculturist, the cultivator, takes the land from the king or the government. He pays little tax, and he works on it. Similarly, everything belongs to God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Nothing belongs to us. We also belong to God. This is knowledge. But God has given this piece of farm or land for our activities. That will be explained in the next verse. Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi (BG 13.3). Kṣetra-jña means... Body is kṣetra, and the living entity is the occupier of this body. So Kṛṣṇa said, "There is another occupier, interested person, of this body." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi. "That is myself." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata.

So what is the distinction between these two person? One is the occupier, and the other is the owner. He says, sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "In all different bodies I am the owner." The living entity is the occupier. Just like a big landlord, he has got many houses, and in each house or each apartment there are separate tenants; similarly these, everything, belongs to God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God. Nothing belongs to us. But the same relationship—He is the owner; we are simply occupier. There are two persons interested in this body: one is the individual soul, living entity, and the other is the Supersoul, God. He is also within this body.

Where He is staying? Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is living within the core of the heart, and the living entity, he is also living within this core of heart. They are living just like two birds sitting on the branch of one tree. These are the Vedic statement. There are two birds sitting on the branch of the same tree. One bird is eating the fruit of the tree, and the other bird, simply witnessing. This is the Vedic statement. So the eating bird we are, living entity. We are eating the fruit as we are working, and the result of our working we are enjoying. But God, the Supersoul, He is not interested in eating the fruits of the tree. He is self-satisfied. He is simply observing how you are working. Because we are working with this body, and God is situated in the same heart. So God is there, and we, individual soul, also there.

So then why He is there? Because He is friend. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 5.29). It is stated in the Vedas that two friendly birds. God is our actual friend, well-wisher friend, suhṛdam. He is simply trying to turn our face towards Him. So long he does not do so, he is changing different body, and God is also going with him—He is so friendly—just to advise him in due time that "Why you are changing from one body to another, one body to another? Why don't you come to Me and live peacefully in blissful life?" That is God's mission. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7).

So God is so great friend of ours. He is always witnessing, witnessing. And as I am desiring, God is giving us facility: "All right, you want to enjoy like this? You take this body and enjoy." Actually you are not enjoying. When we have no discrimination of food, we can eat anything and everything, just like the hogs and pigs. So God says, "All right, you take the body of a pig and hog, and you can eat even up to stool. I give you the facility." That is as we are desiring, so God is supplying a type of body for our enjoyment.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
(BG 18.61)

He orders the material nature that "This individual soul wants a certain type of body to enjoy like this, so give him." So material nature immediately makes ready a type of body. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante... (BG 8.6). So at the time of death, as our desires..., my mind is obsessed with certain type of desire, immediately a similar body is ready. The... Daiva-netreṇa, by superior law, the living entity is entered into the womb of a particular mother, and he develops the particular body. Then he comes out and enjoys or suffers. This is going on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19).

So God is witness. He is along with us always. Whatever we are desiring, whatever we are working, He is witness and He is giving the result. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi (BG 13.3): "I am also one of the occupant of this body. But what is the difference between you and Me? You know simply about your body; I know everything of everyone's body. That is the difference." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu. God knows what are the desires and activities of a little ant, and He knows what are the desires and activities of Lord Brahmā, the biggest of the biggest living entity within this universe, and the smallest—everywhere God. It is said, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61): "He is situated in everyone's heart." It does not mean that He lives in the brāhmaṇa's heart and not in the ant's heart. Everyone's heart.

A small insect, a full-stop–like size, it has also the same anatomical, physiological structure of the body and the same way, jumping and enjoying. You might have seen. So there is no difference between the bodily construction. Everyone has got heart and everything, complete. But according to the desire and karma we are getting different types of body. This is called material existence. So long we shall desire to enjoy this material world, God will give us facility to possess a similar body so that we can satisfy our desires. Therefore He is situated witness, anumantā upadraṣṭā. He is overseer. And without His sanction you cannot act, we cannot act. Therefore His name is anumantā. He gives sanction: "All right, you want to do it? Do it as you like." But ultimately Kṛṣṇa advises that in this way we'll never be happy. This constant change, repeated change of body and different types of desires, if you continue, you will never be happy. Therefore He advises, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You just surrender unto Me and just be engaged in My service. Then you will be happy."

So here it is said,

kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi
sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata
kṣetra-kṣetra-jñayor jñānaṁ
yat taj jñānaṁ mataṁ mama
(BG 13.3)

So this is jñāna, knowledge. We must know what is the constitution of this body, who is the occupier of the body, who is the supreme occupier of this body, how they are acting, how the bodily changes are taking place and how we are suffering in this... I say purposefully "suffering," because in the material world there is no enjoyment. It is illusion. It is only suffering. Only suffering. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This place is duḥkhālayam, simply for suffering. And if you say, "Never mind it is... I shall stay here and continue like this," then it is aśāśvatam. That also will not be allowed. You cannot stay. You have to change the position. This is material condition of life.

So Kṛṣṇa... Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). He comes down to instruct us that "This sort of life, materialistic way of life, will never make you happy. You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You surrender unto Me, act according to My advice. Then you will be happy." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

(break) And there are other persons also, their bodies are made… (break) So that combined glowing of all the inhabitants in the sun planet is coming out as sunshine. And that is impersonal. But the source of this impersonal energy is person.

Indian man (1): Your Divine Grace, our Hindu calendar has given us pūjās, ceremonies and celebrations. Have these any (indistinct)? Do they in any way assist spiritually?

Prabhupāda: What is that? Hindu (indistinct)?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (explaining question) There many celebrations and pūjās in the Hindu calendar. Do these elevate us spiritually?

Prabhupāda: Well, everything requires some training. If you are thoroughly trained up, this little business is not very so important. But for the neophytes, for the lower-grade person, this training is better. But nobody is following in these days. Therefore in this age of Kali it is recommended a common formula:

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā.
(CC Adi 17.21)

In this age of Kali, it is not possible to follow all the regulations of rituals of any dharma, either Hindu dharma or Muslim dharma. They are now given up.

So under the circumstances, it is recommended that you chant the Lord's name. That is very good. That will help you in advancing in spiritual life very easily. So it does not mean that we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore you have to chant also Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our request is that you chant God's name. If you have got a name of God in your religion, you chant that. It does not mean that you have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you think that Kṛṣṇa is the name of the Hindus—no. If you have got… Every religion, it is supposed there is some name of God. So you can chant. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended this, that there are hundreds and thousands of names. According to time, country, place, circumstances, they call God by different names. So you can chant whatever you know as God's name. Otherwise, we are distributing this knowledge, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all.

Indian man (2): Swāmījī, when this soul leaves this body and enters another body, how long does the soul take to enter another body? And when the soul does enter another body, does he usually take a human form?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that you will get another body, and there are 8,400,000 different forms of body. So you can get any one of them. There is no guarantee that you will have again the human form of body. There is no guarantee. So the change of body means the soul, first of all it is decided, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Just like the judge discriminates the actions of the complainant and the responder, so he gives judgment, similarly daiva-netreṇa, by superior investigation it is ascertained, "This man is dying. What body he will get next?" That is decided. Then as soon as it is decided that you have to enter such and such body, then you'll give up this body and enter that body—immediately.

It is said, the example it is given, just like when you walk you put your step one, two, like this. So when you understand your step is on firm ground, then you lift the another step and put forward. Similarly, as soon as it is decided according to his karma what form of body he will get, then I give up this body and enter into the womb of the mother of the certain type of body and develop that body and then come out.

Indian man (3): (indistinct) I want to know what is the meaning of Brahman and what are (indistinct) examples.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (to guest) What is your…? "What is Brahman?"

Devotee: "What is the meaning of Brahman and what it takes to become a brāhmaṇa?"

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa or Brahman?

Indian man (3): Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Brahman means spirit soul. Brahman means spirit soul. Every one of us, we are spirit soul; we are covered by this material body. So when we understand that "I am not this…, outward, external body. I am Brahman," that is called brahma jñāna:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

This is the brahma-bhūtaḥ stage explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. When one is fully confirmed that he is not this body, he is Brahman, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. When one understands that he is Brahman, then prasannātmā, he becomes jubilant. He no more morose. His anxieties are over. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He does not lament, he does not hanker. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: then he sees everyone is Brahman; the outward body is different. In this way when he is situated, he can be engaged in the devotional service of the Lord, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. This is the different stages.

So first of all, we must realise that I am not this body. The same example: I am not finger— "my finger." I am not head— "my head." In this way, when you come to the pure understanding that "I am not this body; I am pure spirit soul," that is Brahman. That is brahma-jñāna. I am already Brahman, but I have now forgotten. I am thinking I am this body. This is my misfortune. And when you come to this understanding that "I am not this body; I am Brahman," that is called brahma-jñāna.

Indian man (4): Swāmījī, may I know the best method whereby one (indistinct) the māyā of birth and death?

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the best method in this time. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, it has no expenditure, there is no loss, and you understand everything very clearly.

Guest (5): Swāmījī, I would like to ask one question. (indistinct) appears to be controversial, and challenges the scriptures of Hinduism. (indistinct) association of the gopīs of Vṛndāvana. I would like the Swāmījī (indistinct) of the Sanskrit (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He is asking, Prabhupāda, that there is a controversial subject matter, Kṛṣṇa's dealings with the gopīs, and he would like to know how to view these dealings, some authority.

Prabhupāda: So don't try to understand His dealings with the gopīs first. First of all try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you want to know somebody, first of all you should know him officially, what he is. Then you can enquire about his family affairs. Don't try to understand his family affairs immediately. First try to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you will understand.

Indian man (6): Dear Swāmījī, the Gītā has been created from the time of (indistinct—firework noises), discourse between Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. After the battle, Arjuna asked Lord Kṛṣṇa to repeat the discourse that had just happened. How can we accept Lord Kṛṣṇa as the divine person, or a godly person, or as God?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is, How can we accept Lord Kṛṣṇa as a godly person, as a divine person, or as God, when Arjuna, after the battle of Kurukṣetra, asked Kṛṣṇa to repeat the instructions?

Prabhupāda: Repeat the instruction? Where it is? Kṛṣṇa instructed, and Arjuna listened to Him, that is all. He never asked to repeat him. Where do you get this information? He never asked him to repeat. Where do you get this information? Hmm? He never said, "Repeat." He understood. Immediately as Kṛṣṇa said, he understood. That's all. And he acted according to Kṛṣṇa's instruction.

Lady guest (7): Swāmījī, can you (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is there a difference between the spirit and the soul?

Prabhupāda: No. Soul means the spirit. There is no difference. What you speak about soul, that you speak about the spirit soul. It is the same thing. It is finer than the intelligence:

indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu paro buddhir
buddhes tu yaḥ para
(BG 3.42)

Our gross understanding is our senses. Means bodily senses. But above that understanding there is the mind, the master of the senses. That is subtle. Senses are gross, but mind is subtle. I know you have got mind; you know I have got my mind; but you don't see where is the mind. Then above mind there is intelligence. That also you do not see. And above intelligence there is soul. So how you can see? You cannot see even the subtle material objects—mind, intelligence. And how you can see the spirit soul? So at the present moment we have no eyes to see. The dimension is stated in the Vedic literature, one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So that is not possible. Therefore we have to perceive that the…, here is a man living, and the same man, the same hands and legs, now dead, because that small particle of spirit is gone.

Man (8): Swāmījī, two great Western religions believe in judgment, and the Eastern religions, Hinduism and Buddhism, believe in reincarnation. Which is correct?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (explaining question) Two great Western religions believe in judgment, and two great Eastern religions, he says, Hinduism and Buddhism, believe in reincarnation. Which is actually the fact?

Prabhupāda: Judgment is also fact and incarnation is also fact. After judgment there is incarnation, I've already explained. When the judgment is given, then the soul is transferred to a different body. So the transmigration of the soul is called incarnation. And without superior judgment, the transmigration of the soul does not take place. So both of them are correct.

(aside:) Now you can chant. Now join with us chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)