750623 - Conversation - Los Angeles

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Conversation 1 with Dr. John Mize
Los_Angeles - June 23, 1975



750623R1-LOS ANGELES - June 23, 1975 - 112:00 Minutes


(Conversation with Dr. John Mize)



Prabhupāda: ...advises Arjuna that "I am... The body and the soul different."

Dr. Mize: The body and soul are different, yes. So it seems to me, too.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is the beginning of spiritual education. People do not understand. I have seen many European big, big professors, they do not have any clear conception that the body and the soul, different.

Dr. Mize: It still disturbs me, of course, how the body can influence the mind so much, the mind not being the soul apparently. But I know that when I get hit on the back of the head, my mind seems to blank out. Once in judo I recall having my carotid artery pressed, and consciousness left. But it was very pleasant. It was not unpleasant at all.

Prabhupāda: No. Actually, soul is above intelligence. Above intelligence. Our gross senses, that is our present perception, direct. And beyond these gross senses, there is the mind. And beyond the mind, there is intelligence. And beyond intelligence, there is soul. So come to that platform requires that meditation process to make the sense activities calm and quiet, mind settle, and then come to the intelligence platform, then come to the spiritual platform. (aside:) Find out this verse,

indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir
buddhes tu paro yaḥ saḥ
(BG 3.42)

Jayatīrtha: Indriyāṇi pramathini?

Prabhupāda: Indriyāṇi parāṇy ahuḥ. Para. You better come here. Yes?

Jayatīrtha:

indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir
yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
(BG 3.42)

"The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he (the soul) is even higher than the intelligence."

Purport: "The senses are different outlets for the activities of lust. Lust is reserved within the body, but it is given vent through the senses. Therefore, the senses are superior to the body as a whole. These outlets are not in use when there is superior consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness the soul makes direct connection with the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore the bodily functions, as described here, ultimately end in the Supreme Soul. Bodily action means the functions of the senses, and stopping the senses means stopping all bodily actions. But since the mind is active, then, even though the body may be silent and at rest, the mind will act—as it does during dreaming. But, above the mind there is the determination of the intelligence, and above the intelligence is the soul proper. If, therefore, the soul is directly engaged with the Supreme, naturally all other subordinates, namely, the intelligence, mind and the senses, will automatically be engaged. In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad there is a passage in which it is said that the objects of sense gratification are superior to the senses, and mind is superior to the sense objects. If, therefore, the mind is directly engaged in the service of the Lord constantly, then there is no chance of the senses becoming engaged in other ways. This mental attitude has already been explained. If the mind is engaged in the transcendental service of the Lord, there is no chance of its being engaged in the lower propensities. In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad the soul has been described as mahān, the great. Therefore the soul is above all—namely, the sense objects, the senses, the mind and the intelligence. Therefore, directly understanding the constitutional position of the soul is the solution of the whole problem.

"With intelligence one has to seek out the constitutional position of the soul and then engage the mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That solves the whole problem. A neophyte spiritualist is generally advised to keep aloof from the objects of senses. One has to strengthen the mind by use of intelligence. If by intelligence one engages one's mind in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, by complete surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then, automatically, the mind becomes stronger, and even though the senses are very strong, like serpents, they will be no more effective than serpents with broken fangs. But even though the soul is the master of intelligence and mind, and the senses also, still, unless it is strengthened by association with Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is every chance of falling down due to the agitated mind."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. The yogic process is to control the mind. Our process is: immediately engage the mind in Kṛṣṇa—thinking of Kṛṣṇa, feeling for Kṛṣṇa, willing to act for Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right. Then everything will be all right. If the mind is immediately engaged in the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then this side and that side, everything will be all right. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). Padāravindayoḥ, in the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa mind is engaged. So this is our process: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma..., engaging the mind, meditation.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the doctor was saying that he holds to the philosophy of Kant.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kant.

Bahulāśva: Kant, yes. He was explaining nicely his point of view downstairs before we came up.

Prabhupāda: What is that Kant's philosophy?

Dr. Mize: One major difference, it seems, with the point of view of the Eastern Indian philosophies in particular is that the soul of man does not seem to be something eternal, but it seems to be something created.

Prabhupāda: Created?

Dr. Mize: Created.

Prabhupāda: No. Soul is part and parcel of God. As God is not created—He is creator, above creation—so the father creates a child; therefore father is above creation. So God is above creation. God created the cosmic manifestation. Before creation of this cosmic world, God was there. Therefore He is not created; He is creator of all created things. And the soul, being part and parcel of God, he is also not created.

(Video 1 start)

Dr. Mize: The question that bothers me in part is, then, why would the soul... Because I understand your conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally, or part of God, and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing.

Prabhupāda: That is his independence.

Dr. Mize: Independence.

Prabhupāda: Instead of using independence properly, when he misuses independence he falls.

Dr. Mize: I'm sorry, he what?

Prabhupāda: He falls down.

Dr. Mize: He falls.

Prabhupāda: He falls down on account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear me.

Dr. Mize: I wouldn't what?

Prabhupāda: You may not like to hear me.

Dr. Mize: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That independence you have got. I have got also. I may not talk with you. So that independence is always there. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, it is the duty of the soul to be always engaged in the service of the Lord.

Dr. Mize: Always engaged in...?

Prabhupāda: In the service of the Lord.

Dr. Mize: Service of the Lord.

Prabhupāda: Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately carrying out. I say, "Make it like this," he will..., it will do. So... But this is dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is not machine, mechanical part. It is spiritual part. So therefore, as I am directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life. Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A son's duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material world.

Dr. Mize: It is puzzling to me that one would be so foolish.

Prabhupāda: Because by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). (aside:) Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter. That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can do." Kṛṣṇa never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. He gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can do." And he agreed: "Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say." The same independence. Yes.

Bahulāśva: This is in the Eighteenth Chapter.

Dharmādhyakṣa: "Thus I have explained to you the most..." Read Sanskrit first?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dharmādhyakṣa:

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ
guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā
vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa
yathecchasi tathā kuru
(BG 18.63)

"Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now if you say, "Why the soul should become so foolish?" so that is misuse of independence. Intelligent father has got intelligent son, but sometimes he becomes a fool. So what is the reason? He is the part and parcel of the father. He should have become exactly like the father. But he does not become like the father. I have seen, in Allahabad was a big lawyer, barrister, Mr. Bannerjee. His eldest son was also barrister, and his youngest son, on account of bad association, he became a ekala-wala. Ekala means... In India there is a carriage drawn by one horse. So he liked to be an ekala. That means he fell in love, a low class of woman, and by her association, he became an ekala. There are many instances. The Ajamila upākhyāna. He was a brāhmaṇa and then he fell down very low. So this misuse of independence is always there.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our material contaminated state, when we act in a foolishly or mad..., then we call that tamas, or ignorance. But in the spiritual sky when the living entity is in his pure state of consciousness, what acts... Does something act upon him to make him illusioned at that point also?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. They committed offense. They did not allow the four Kumāras to enter. That was their fault. And the Kumāras became very sorry. Then they cursed him that "You are not fit to remain in this place." So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence. Or we are prone to fall down because we are small. Just like small fragment of fire, although it is fire, it is prone to be extinguished. The big fire does not extinguish. So Kṛṣṇa the big fire, and we are part and parcel, sparks, very small. So within the fire there are sparks, "fut! fut!" There are so many. But if the sparks fall down, then it is extinguished. It is like that. The fall down means material world, there are three different grades: the tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa and sattva-guṇa. If the... Just like the spark falls down. If it falls down on dry grass, the grass becomes ablazed. So the fiery quality is still maintained, although it is fall down. On account of the atmosphere of the dry grass, it again makes another fire, and the fiery quality maintains. That is sattva-guṇa. And if the spark falls down on the green grass, then it is extinguished. And the dry grass, if, when the green grass becomes dry, there is chance of again coming to the blazing. But if the spark falls down in water, then it is very difficult. Similarly, the soul, when comes in the material world, there are three guṇas. So if he contacts with tamo-guṇa then he is in the most abominable condition. If it falls down with rajo-guṇa then there is little activity. Just like they are working. And if he falls down in the sattva-guṇa, then he at least keeps himself in the knowledge that "I am fire. I do not belong to this dull material."

So therefore we have to bring him again to the sattva-guṇa, brahminical qualification, so that he can understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul. I am not this matter." Then his spiritual activity begins. Therefore we are trying to bring him to the platform of sattva-guṇa, means to give up the business of rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa: no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling—so many no's—to deny him the influence of material qualities. Then, if he is situated in the sattva-guṇa, then he remains on the platform of... When he remains on the plat..., sattva-guṇa, then the rajas-tamaḥ, the other base qualities, cannot disturb him. The base quality, the platform of base quality, is this: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. So tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaṣ ca ye (SB 1.2.19). When one is free from at least two, these base qualities... Base quality means kama, lusty desires, and greediness. In material world, generally they are under these base quality, means always filled up with lusty desires and not satisfied, greedy. So when we conquer over these base qualities, then we become happy. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaṣ ca ye, ceta etair anaviddham... (SB 1.2.19). When the consciousness is not influenced by these base qualities, ceta etair ana..., sthitaḥ sattve prasīdati, being situated on the platform of sattva-guṇa, he feels happy. That is the beginning of spiritual life. When... So long the mind is disturbed by lusty desires and greediness, there is no question of spiritual life. Therefore, the first business is how to control the mind so that it may not be influenced by the base quality, lusty desires and greediness. We have seen in Paris old man, seventy-five years old, he is going to the night club, because the lusty desire is there. He pays fifty dollars for entering the club, and then he pays further for other things. So even he is seventy-five years old, the lusty desire is there.

Dr. Mize: Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once, or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they're not foolish, they don't fall down?

Prabhupāda: No, there are... Majority, ninety percent, they are always good. They never fall down.

Dr. Mize: So we're among the ten percent.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world, all the living entities they are... Just like in the prison house there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they're outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few falls down.

Dr. Mize: Does Kṛṣṇa know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa? Yes, Kṛṣṇa may know because He is omniscient.

Dr. Mize: Are more souls falling all the time?

Prabhupāda: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence... Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal, so their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the criminal? You are constructing..." Government knows there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency.

Dr. Mize: The origin of that tendency is...?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Mize: From where does that tendency come?

Prabhupāda: Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Now you do whatever you like."

(Video 1 end)

Jayatīrtha: Because Kṛṣṇa is independent, therefore the part and parcels...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Part and parcel must have a little portion of independence. Qualitatively, part and parcel means... Just like you take a drop of water from the sea. The all the chemical composition is there in the drop. So Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. So we living entities, we are drop. Still, the independence quality is there in minute quantity.

Dr. Mize: But Kṛṣṇa has no tendency to fall, whereas we do.

Prabhupāda: No. Because Kṛṣṇa is God. Therefore He is all good. Even He falls down, to our estimation, it is not fall down. Just like... (break) ...cannot judge God. If we are devotee, all circumstances we shall glorify God, "You are all-good." That is devotee. You cannot criticize God, "Oh, You are doing such thing." No.

Dr. Mize: I'm still puzzled about the relationship of the soul to God. If the soul is eternal, as God is, and yet some souls have the tendency to fall and others don't have that tendency...

Prabhupāda: No, no, eternal does not mean not fall. Suppose you are now professor. So you can fall down from your position. But that does not mean you are not eternal. If you are fall down from your position, you do not lose your eternity; you simply fall down. You can become a professor; you can become an ordinary man. But you are eternal in all circumstance. Eternal... Fall down does not mean that he loses his eternal. That is stated, that na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). (aside:) Find out. Ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The living entity is never born or it never dies. This is eternity. You change your body, but you eternal.

Dr. Mize: It's so puzzling, though, why I would spend eternity...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he requires that sattva-guṇa qualification.

Dr. Mize: The what qualification?

Prabhupāda: That sattva-guṇa, goodness.

Dr. Mize: I'm sorry...

Prabhupāda: Goodness.

Dr. Mize: Goodness?

Bahulāśva: The mode of goodness.

Prabhupāda: Mode of goodness. Just like not that everyone can become a philosophy professor. It requires certain qualification. But everyone can become, also. Everyone got the chance. Provided he is qualified, then he can take the post of a philosophy professor. Everyone has got the chance, not that you have got only the chance. Anyone has got the chance. But not that without having a certain qualification, one can become. Similarly, these thing will remain puzzling unless one comes to the qualification of goodness. Therefore we order our disciples, "Come to the platform of goodness. Give up all this nonsense habit." Then it will be possible.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Let him ask. (pause) Tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ (SB 1.2.19). Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu (SB 1.2.18). (aside:) In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you find out this verse, First Canto. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. So abhadreṣu, prāyeṣu. We are now covered with base qualities. So when these base qualities are finished—not altogether, almost finished—then one can come to the platform of sattva-guṇa.

Dr. Mize: The platform of...?

Prabhupāda: Sattva-guṇa, goodness.

Dr. Mize: Goodness.

Prabhupāda: In that platform one can understand very quickly. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is little successful because we are trying to bring the students on the platform of goodness. Therefore it is becoming little successful. If you keep them in the platform of ignorance and passion, then it will be difficult.

Dharmādhyakṣa:

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
bhagavaty uttama-śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
(SB 1.2.18)

"By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the glorious Lord, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact."

Purport: "Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhāgavatas. There are two types of bhāgavatas, namely the book Bhāgavata and the devotee bhāgavata. Both the bhāgavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee bhāgavata is as good as the book Bhāgavata because the devotee bhāgavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhāgavata, and the book Bhāgavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also bhāgavatas. Bhāgavata book and person are identical.

"The devotee bhāgavata is a direct representative of Bhagavān, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee bhāgavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhāgavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee bhāgavata or the book Bhāgavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Śrīla Nāradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Śrīla Nāradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of bhāgavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the bhāgavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, and the result is that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the bhāgavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhāgavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee bhāgavata, and the combination of these two bhāgavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on."

Prabhupāda: So we are giving this chance to everyone, devotee bhāgavata and grantha-bhāgavata, to get them raised from the lower condition of life, kāma-lobha, lusty desires and greediness. This is the process. And practically you can see all these young men, they have no more lusty desires or greediness. They are also young men. They never ask permission from me any time, "Now today I want to go to the cinema." They have got all the monies in their hand. They never misspend without my permission. They are also young men, born in the Western countries, addicted to so many bad habits. But they have given up. This is practical. Professor Judah has written me letter. You know him?

Dr. Mize: No, I do not.

Prabhupāda: That "I am simply amazed how you have converted drug-addicted hippies to become servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." That is his puzzling. But the method is so nice that it automatically becomes. Therefore we are stressing on the method.

Dharmādhyakṣa: In other words, Śrīla Prabhupāda, without practice of the method, it's very difficult to understand the philosophical concepts.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Therefore it is said that without becoming a brāhmaṇa, nobody should touch Vedas. That is a... Without becoming brāhmaṇa...

janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ
saṅskarād bhaved dvijaḥ
veda-pathad bhaved vipro
brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ

These are the different stages. Everyone is born śūdra. Śūdra means the life of lamentation. He does something and laments. This is śūdra. He does not know how to perform, but by whims he does something and laments later on. This is śūdra. And brāhmaṇa means na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He never laments, neither hankers. That is brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). (aside:) Find out this verse, brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati.

Jayatīrtha: 18.54. I should read?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param
(BG 18.54)

"One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me."

Prabhupāda: That means one has to come to the platform of brāhmaṇa. Then he can enter into devotional service. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param (BG 18.54). In that brāhminical state he sees every living entity as part and parcel of God. That is samaḥ, equality. He does not see like this, that the human being has soul and the cow has not soul. He does not see like that. He sees the cow has soul, the ant has soul, the elephant has soul, the tree has soul, the human being has soul. That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. By ignorance he thinks that "The tree has no soul; the cow has no soul; the animal has no soul; simply we have got soul." That is ignorance, base quality. But when you come to the pureness of goodness, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, this qualification will arise. So a devotee is not willing to kill even an ant because he knows that "He is also soul, part and parcel. By his karma, he has become ant; I have become a human being. So I am the same soul; he is the same soul. He is different body. He is suffering in that way. I have got different body. I am also suffering, but I am thinking I am enjoying." That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. What is the meaning, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu?

Jayatīrtha: Samaḥ means equally disposed; sarveṣu means all; bhūteṣu means living entity.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Jayatīrtha: "He is equally disposed to every living entity."

Prabhupāda: So we can see on equal level when you become a brāhmaṇa, brahma-bhūtaḥ. Not in the United Nation, passing resolution and fight is going on outside. Because they have no vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So the politicians should be guided by the brāhmaṇas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again—first of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault. The whole society is being guided by the mle..., śūdras and some portion vaiśyas. Mostly śūdras, and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society there must be four divisions. (aside:) Find out this verse, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Jayatīrtha: 4.13.

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ
guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
tasya kartāram api māṁ
viddhy akartāram avyayam
(BG 4.13)

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy—just to make the human society very peaceful and making progress, we wish to establish this system. A first-class man, group of men, brāhmaṇas, they will guide the kṣatriyas; and the kṣatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaiśya. Vaiśya means agriculture and cow protection and trade. And śūdra means those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there must be division like this. The brāhmaṇas should guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas will administer the state, and the vaiśyas will produce foodstuff, and śūdras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is śūdra, without any aim of life, then there will be chaos. Just like in your country, in spite of so much facility for education, the students are produced hippies, useless for all purposes. Why? I have gone to so many universities. I have seen the students, hippies. And if you say that "If you act like cats and dogs, you will become dog next life," they say, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" (laughter) This is education. He is prepared to become a dog. He does not know what is the distinction between dog and human being. He is seeking after the dog's facility that he can have sex on the street. He is thinking the dog life is advantageous. This is the position. Therefore Professor Judah has written me this letter, that "I am simply surprised how you have converted the drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." This is his words.

Dr. Mize: May I ask you another question?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Mize: The relationship of mind to the soul, how the mind comes to know that it has or that there is a soul.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Conversation 2 with Dr. John Mize
Los_Angeles - June 23, 1975


(Video 2 start)

Dr. Mize: How the mind comes to know that there is a soul.

Prabhupāda: By taking lesson from professors who has mind clear. Why the students are coming to you? Because his mind is not clear. You have to clear his mind by teaching him psychology—feeling, thinking; feeling, willing. Therefore he has to come to a learned man who knows how to understand mind, how to understand the activities of the mind, how to deal with them. That requires education. A dog cannot take this education, but a human being can take. Therefore it is the duty of the human being how to control the mind, not act like cats and dogs. That is human being. He should be inquisitive, "Why this happening? Why this happening?" and he should take education. That is human life. And if he does not inquire, if he does not take education, then what is the difference between him and the dog? He remains a dog. He has got this opportunity of human life. He should take advantage of understanding what is what, not to keep himself in the dog status, simply eating, sleeping, sex life and defending. That is the distinction between dog and human being. If he does not become inquisitive how to control the mind, he is not even a human being. A dog never inquires. A dog knows that "When I bark, people become disturbed." He'll never ask, "How to control this barking habit?" (laughter) Because he is dog, he cannot do that. A human being can know that "People hates me. I do something wrong. How to control my mind?" That is human being. That is the difference between human being and dog. Therefore Vedic injunction is, "Go and inquire. You have got this human form of life." Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now, this is the time for inquiring about the soul." Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If you want to understand this science, then go to proper guru and take lessons from him. The same thing as we instruct our children: "If you want to be educated in higher status of life, go to school, go to college, take lesson." That is human society. The dog's father will never ask the dog child, "Go to school." No. They are dogs.

Jayatīrtha: The universities nowadays don't teach any courses in the nature of the soul.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he says, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" Because there is no education. He does not know the difference between dog and the human being. Therefore he says that "What is the wrong if I become a dog? I will get more facility for sex without any criminal charges." This is the advancement of education.

Dr. Mize: How does the mind, then, come to know that there is a soul?

Prabhupāda: That I say, that you have to educated. How these people are convinced about the soul? They have been educated, by practice and by knowledge. Everything has to be learned by being educated. And therefore the Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārtham, "In order to know that science," gurum eva abhigacchet, "you must go to guru, teacher." So the answer is that you must go to the teacher who can teach you how the soul is there.

(Video 2 end)

Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda, the professor asked what is the relationship with the soul and the mind?

Prabhupāda: Mind is there in the soul, but the mind is now polluted by material contamination. Just like a madman: he has got his mind, but his mind is contaminated. Therefore he requires treatment by psychiatrist. You cannot say the madman has no mind. He has got mind, but it is contaminated. You have to make treatment. So mind is there. Everything is there in the soul. And now the mind, contaminated by the matter, it is perverted. The same example: A madman has got mind, but it is useless. He is simply acting in madness. The same madman, when properly treated, he will act like a sane man. So mind is there always, in the pure soul or in the material body. Everything is spiritual. The soul is spiritual; the mind is spiritual; the intelligence is spiritual. But it is now contaminated. So you have to make treatment. When it is purified, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then mind is controlled, intelligence properly acting, and soul is in his proper position. Therefore those who are under treatment, they must be strict observation—he may not do something wrong so that treatment may be hampered.

Jayatīrtha: Philosophers generally try to use their mind to speculate about the nature of the soul. But with the mind they can never understand...

Prabhupāda: Just like the madman is speculating. He is thinking, "I am president. Bās, finished." He is lying down on the street, "Oh, I am completely independent. Why shall I go on the footpath?"

Dr. Mize: When the soul was in the spiritual sky, it also had a mind and an intelligence like here?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Unless he has got mind, how he misuses intelligence?

Dr. Mize: But he misused that intelligence in his freedom, his independence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Mind is there also. That is spiritual mind. Everything is spiritual. There is nothing material. Body spiritual, mind spiritual, intelligence spiritual, he is spiritual, the land spiritual, water spiritual—everything is spiritual. That is spiritual world. Here in the material world, except the spirit soul, everything is material. And he is encumbered with this material atmosphere by twenty-seven stratas, layers: the five elements, gross elements; then ten senses; and then three guṇas... In this way there are twenty-seven layers he is within, and he has to be taken out. That is called liberation. Just like if you are covered with twenty-seven layers of dirty things, so it is very difficult position. But there is process to clear the garbage and take him out. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement, to take the soul out of the covering of twenty-seven layers of material atmosphere. That śloka is naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu: "almost cleansed." Abhadra, abhadra means dirty things. So this clearing process going on. When it is almost cleansed the man feels, "Oh..." And that process: nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā (SB 1.2.18), constantly being engaged in the service of Bhāgavata, grantha-bhāgavata and the person bhāgavata. Then it will be cleansed. And then, when he comes out, that is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54), "Oh, I am now free." Na śocati na..., no more lamentation, no more greediness. Everything finished. Then he begins his real business as part and parcel of God. That is perfection.

Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda, in the Thirteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, "Nature, Enjoyer and Consciousness," in verse number six and seven you mention those twenty-seven coverings: "The five great elements, false ego, intelligence, the unmanifest, the ten senses, the mind, the five sense objects, desire, hate, happiness, and distress, the aggregate, the life symptoms and convictions—all these are considered, in summary, to be the field of activities and their interaction." And...

Prabhupāda: By the material life, these are our field of activities. The body is a combination of all these things. Just like a huge computer machine. It is made of these material things, but the mechanical parts are very minute, different. All these are matter. But within this matter, because the soul is there, therefore the finest machine is working. Just like your composition machine, (imitates machine:) "kut-kut-kut-kut-kut-kut." But one has to push the button; otherwise useless. However very nicely made the machine, without a living being's touch, it is useless. So all this big machine, body, is wonderful so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul is out it is lump of matter, useless, not worth a penny. Throw it away. So we are giving importance to the machine, not to the person who is dealing with the machine. This is the folly of modern civilization. We are thinking like child, "The machine is working independently." But that is not the fact. The big airship, 747, is flying because the pilot is there, and the pilot is a soul, covered by another bodily machine. And that, that is missing point in the modern civilization, that who is working with the machine. That they do not know. That is ignorance. It is said—(aside:) you see Bhagavad-gītā,

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
(BG 18.61)

Yantra means machine. The modern education is missing the pilot. They are simply wandering with the machine. Read it.

Jayatīrtha:

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
(BG 18.61)

"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy."

Prabhupāda: That's it. They do not consider this body as machine. In spite of all education, they are thinking that there is no other element than this machine. And actually, they are finding that big, nice machine, computer, without an operator, it does not work. And this huge machine is working without any spiritual touch? Just see how foolishness. They think automatically working. Nature is working automatically. Do they not think?

Dr. Mize: They think there's a mind, but not a soul.

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Something is there which is working. Now that may be mistake. You call it soul or mind; that is next understanding. But the machine is not working independently. That should be understood first. Then how the machine is working, that will be next chapter. So they have no understanding even that how the machine is working. Mūḍhā (mohitaṁ) nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam... (BG 7.13). Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram... (BG 9.10). That they do not know, mūḍhas. So if you do not know how the machine is working, then what is the value of your education? Education means enlightenment. You do not know what is the final cause, that huge body is working as nature, so many planets, so many big, big planets like sun, moon, they are floating in the air. Who has made this arrangement? They are... We see every day. They will never accept God is the original cause. That thing does not come to their brain. They are putting forward different theories, and that is being accepted. One theory is accepted today, and tomorrow, "No, no, this is not. Here is another, advanced theory." That "advanced" means he does not know.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, accepting that there is a eternal soul, how is the soul distinguished, then, from the body, or from the machine, since things like the senses, the mind, the intelligence, desire and hate, which people accept as the symptoms of the soul...

Prabhupāda: That is the proof, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). When the body is finished, no more working, the soul is there; he has accepted another body. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Those who are educated, sober, they are not surprised. Those who are not educated, they are surprised. Therefore this very word is used, dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra means one who is sober by education. He knows the soul has now left this body; he has accepted another body. That is dhīra. He knows by education. Therefore this very word... (aside:) Find out.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara
tatha dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

Bahulāśva: That's chapter number two, text thirteen. "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."

Prabhupāda: That's it. He does not lament. "No, this body is no more useful." Just like this dress is no more useful—throw it away; accept another dress. But dress is old, now it is useless, that does not (mean) you are useless. You accept another dress. That's all.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but my question was what distinguishes the soul from the body? Because here we're mentioning everything that is the field of activity, but then what is the soul?

Prabhupāda: He is acting on the field. If the field is not acting, the soul is not there. Just like field, agricultural field, when you see the food grains are growing, the grass is there nicely, the paddy is growing nicely, you know, "Somebody is working." And in the jungle, where there is no paddy field, it is simply jungle, you know nobody is working. Where is the difficulty? When these things are in working order, then you know the soul is there. And it is decomposing, lying on the field, and birds are coming, eating, dogs are biting—then the soul is not there. This is distinction. Where is the difficulty? When the motorcar is standing on the middle road, you know, "There is no driver. It is left over." Although the big machine, but because there is no driver, it is lying uncared for.

Bahulāśva: So the soul is the conscious worker of the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A little mistake will cause disaster. Therefore education means to protect him from committing mistake. This is education. And if you keep him in the darkness, what is the value of education? (aside:) Get that switch on. Education means enlightenment. One should know, "What I am? I am this body or something else other than the body?" This is education. That is self-realization. "Oh, I am not this body; I am soul. And I am simply working for the body? What I am doing for me? I say, 'It is my body,' so I am working for 'my,' and what for the 'I?' " Where is that education? If you simply take care of "my" and don't take care of "I," is that education? So taking care of "my" is done by the dog, and taking care of "I" is done by the human being. That is the difference. The dog, as soon as he sees another foreign dog in that neighborhood, he begins barking, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" So we are doing the same business in the immigration department: "Why you have come? Have you got visa?" This is civilization, but the dog's business, "Gow! Gow!" In Paris I went without visa, and they detained me for four hours. Well, a human being has come here. Why the immigration law so strict? But that is advancement of civilization.

Bahulāśva: They have to keep out the thieves and the rogues.

Prabhupāda: That means they have created thieves and rogues. Therefore they are suspicious. Nowadays in the airport, everyone is searched. Then it is now taken for granted that all of them are cheats. So what is the value of this education if all of them are cheats? There is no discrimination, "Now, here is a educated professor, Doctor, Ph.D. He cannot be searched." No, he will be also searched, because, "You may be Ph.D., but we know you are a cheat." (laughter) Is not the conclusion? Will he be excused if he says, "Oh, I am Ph.D."? No, you must be searched. "You may be Ph.D., but you are a cheat." This is education. So what is the value of this education? And according to Vedic civilization, as soon as one is a brāhmaṇa, he is not within the jurisdiction of administration—immediately. The government has no right to check in his activities, because he knows he is a brāhmaṇa. Four person, four or five, they are excused from the jurisdiction of law. The first is brāhmaṇa, the second is cow, the third is woman, and the fourth is old man and fifth is the child. These five persons are not in the jurisdiction of law. No. Just like we have got practical. If a child comes and takes my spectacle away, he is not criminal. Everyone knows. But if a man takes my spectacle, then he is criminal. Similarly, a brāhmaṇa is never criminal. A cow is never criminal. These are the Vedic civilization. Woman, woman is also excused. No punishment for woman.

Jayatīrtha: Now the crime rate amongst the women is...

Prabhupāda: Now they have been trained up. What can be done? Woman is not trained up now to become a chaste wife. That is the defect of the civilization. Formerly, woman was trained up only to become..., remain faithful to his husband, that's all. Nari-rūpaṁ pati-vrataḥ: "Woman's beauty is how she is faithful to her husband." That's all. That is beauty, not personal beauty. Vidyā rūpaṁ kurupanam: "A black man or ugly man, if he is educated, that is his beauty." Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ. Kokila, the cuckoo, is just like a crow, but everyone likes because his voice is so sweet. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ vidyā rūpaṁ kurupanam nari-rūpaṁ pati-vratam. Like that, he has given a list. These are the beauty. If a woman is trained up not to talk with any other man except her husband, that is her beauty. That enhances the beauty and prestige. This is Vedic knowledge.

Jayatīrtha: In today's society that standard is unimaginable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore there is no adjustment. Everyone is suffering, in spite of so-called education. Nobody is happy.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the professor was also saying that Kant had a theistic viewpoint also. He believed that there was God and... What other things were you saying?

Dr. Mize: The nature of God? Kant's view?

Bahulāśva: Kant's philosophy.

Dr. Mize: That the purpose of the human existence is to improve its moral nature, to reunite ultimately with God, to be pleasing to God. So it's similar in that sense. He apparently disagrees on the origin...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sattva-guṇa. Good character means sattva-guṇa—to become brāhmaṇa and then love God. This is Vedic civilization.

Jayatīrtha: Does he make any description of God? Any explanation?

Dr. Mize: His thesis is that God is an intelligent moral force. But he avoided anthropomorphism by not projecting such properties as anger onto God. But he recognized personality in God. God is a moral intelligence, and powerful.

Prabhupāda: So to become angry, that is also qualification of God, to become angry.

Dr. Mize: Is...?

Prabhupāda: To become angry is also qualification of God.

Dr. Mize: I don't understand what you last said. To be angry is...

Bahulāśva: A quality of God. To become angry is a quality of God.

Prabhupāda: Because unless there is anger in God, how there is anger in me? But we, as we misuse our independence, we misuse our anger. And God does not misuse His independence; He does not misuse His anger. But the anger quality is there. Otherwise, how I have got anger? This is the Vedānta philosophy. Janmādyasya yataḥ: "Everything is emanating from the Supreme." So if the anger is there, it must be there.

Dr. Mize: And jealousy?

Prabhupāda: Everything.

Dr. Mize: It's difficult to imagine Kṛṣṇa jealous.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Mize: What could He possibly envy or be jealous of?

Prabhupāda: You can say whatever thing, but anger, all, whatever you have got, God has got in bigger quantity and perfect quantity. That is the conception of God—without any..., what is called?

Dr. Mize: Imperfection?

Prabhupāda: Imperfection, yes.

Dr. Mize: I hope He doesn't have my ignorance in such a mass.

Dharmādhyakṣa: But ignorance is not a positive existence.

Dr. Mize: And is anger or jealousy?

Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes anger acts. If you fight, if you do not be angry, you cannot fight.

Jayatīrtha: In the Kṛṣṇa book there are so many stories of Kṛṣṇa's anger or... Once, when His mother was (indistinct) a cooking pot...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: Kṛṣṇa's activities are always for the good. So even when He becomes angry there is no loss.

Prabhupāda: That is also...

Dr. Mize: Righteous anger.

Bahulāśva: Yes, spiritual anger.

Dharmādhyakṣa: It's His mercy. So if Kṛṣṇa gets angry at us, that's actually...

Prabhupāda: Everything has got proper use. In the material condition we do not know that. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has made a list, how to use your, this anger, greediness, like that. He says, kamaḥ kṛṣṇa-karmārpaṇe. We are lusty for doing something for our sense gratification. The same desire, same propensity, can be utilized for serving Kṛṣṇa. Just like we are writing books, keeping night, whole night. So for an old man like me, it is tedious. But we are doing for Kṛṣṇa. So similarly, another author may be writing whole night for some sex literature. So the labor for producing a sex literature and the labor for producing a Bhāgavata is the same. It may be same ambition, that "Let me become a big author. My name will be very popular." But one thing is being done for Kṛṣṇa; one thing is being done for sense gratification. So that propensity of becoming a reputed author or the labor, this, same, but it is being utilized for different purposes. Similarly, you take anything, if you use it for... Just like Hanumān. He became angry upon Rāvaṇa. He set fire in his city, destroyed the whole city. He showed his anger, but not for his personal sense gratification. He wanted to serve Lord Rāma. Sītā was stolen by him, so there was arrangement for fighting, and he did the same thing, set fire. To set fire in your home or your country, it is not good, but he did it for satisfaction of Lord Rāmacandra. So everything has its proper use when it is utilized for serving Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are living beings. We are conscious. We cannot give up anything. But we are being trained up how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (aside:) So give him some prasādam.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes, we have made some (indistinct) prasādam.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda has written one book—actually it will be two books, this thick—on all the different philosophers. Prabhupāda is discussing their philosophy in relationship with Kṛṣṇa consciousness and where their weak points are. This book will be published soon?

Prabhupāda: The publisher is there.

Jayatīrtha: As soon as possible.

Bahulāśva: That will be very interesting.

Dr. Mize: I look forward to seeing it.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, did you speak about Kant's philosophy in that book also? Yes? He is very popular.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kant is very popular. I was also a student of philosophy. In my student life my professors were all Europeans. I was student of Scottish Churches College in Calcutta. So one professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he was our professor for psychology, metaphysics. Later on he became the vice-chancellor of Calcutta University. A very nice gentleman.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Dr. Mize finds that he's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa a little in the shower now. (Prabhupāda laughs) When he takes a shower, he chants a little.

Prabhupāda: One press reporter in the Berkeley University in the beginning, he wrote his article, and he wrote that "After hearing this Hare Kṛṣṇa for a few minutes, I came home chanting all the road, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.' " He gave this report.

Dharmādhyakṣa: I think many scholars have a hard time realizing how just by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is so nice and so easy.

Dharmādhyakṣa: ...that the highest philosophical realization can come from chanting.

Dr. Mize: (accepting prasādam) Thank you.

Devotee: Mrs. Salim has given these flowers and clock.

Jayatīrtha: That gentleman who came over last night, he has brought this present.

Prabhupāda: Take. (eating prasādam)

Dr. Mize: This is delicious.

Prabhupāda: Now you can take. Kṛṣṇa has given us so many nice things. Why should we kill the poor animals? That's not good. Because na samaḥ, there is no such vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. He is not a brāhmaṇa. He is giving the dog a bad name and hang it. "Animal has no soul." What is this? Animal has no soul?

Bahulāśva: Sometimes they argue that we're killing the vegetables.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Vegetable has also life, but we are not killing. When you pluck out the flower, the tree is not killed. When you take a fruit, the tree is not killed. When you take grains, automatically they die; then you take the grains. There is no question of killing. But even it is killing, it is not as murderous as killing a cow. Why the state hangs a man when he kills a man? The man can plead that "So many animals are being killed every day. If I kill one man, what is the wrong there?" The punishment is that "You have killed one important animal." Therefore the Bhaga..., kṛṣi-go-rakṣya (BG 18.44), that cow should be protected because it is a very, very important animal. It does not say "other animal." Or does not say "all animals." He said cows, because important. It's supplying you milk, so important food. She is your mother, and you are killing mother? Is that your civilization, killing mother? "Mother is old, and mother is no more supplying milk. Kill." Is there any such sanction? Rather, old mother is given more protection. And what is this civilization, killing the mother? In the morning we require milk immediately, and the mother cow is supplying. And when she cannot supply, kill her. What is this philosophy?

Bahulāśva: I was lecturing in the University of Marin in San Francisco. So I was explaining that, and one man said, "This is just your sentiment. You just have some sentiment." So I asked him if he had a dog. And he said, "Yes." So I said that "When your dog becomes old, will you kill it?" So he said, "No, why shall I kill it? It's a good dog." So...

Prabhupāda: Dog is good; cow is bad. Dog is creating always nasty things, and cow is so pure, even the stool is pure, and she has to be killed.

Dr. Mize: The question has been asked about the unfertilized eggs, why they should not be eaten.

Prabhupāda: Unfertilized, but there is potency of fertilization. You check the progress of one living entity coming out of it.

Dr. Mize: Once the egg is laid, there is no chance for it to be fertilized.

Prabhupāda: No, egg is... The living entity is already there. Just like a woman is pregnant means the living entity is already there. So as soon as there is egg, the living entity is already there. It is taking time to come out. Just in the womb of the mother, the child is taking time to grow and become fit to come out.

Dr. Mize: True, but the egg in the mother has been fertilized by the male sperm, whereas the egg laid by a chicken was not fertilized...

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. They have got that potency. There are four kinds of birth: from the egg, from the vegetable, from fermentation and from embryo. So from any of these four kinds of sources the living entity come out. Aṇḍa-ja, udbhij-ja, jarāyu-ja and sveda-ja, the Sanskrit name. Sveda-ja, simply by perspiration. Just like unclean bed, they produce bugs. The man gets perspiration, bad perspiration, and in contact with air, with this perspiration, the living entity comes. That is bug. This is called sveda-ja, "out of perspiration." Your coat, shirt, if you don't cleanse, or your body is unclean, you will find so many moths within the shirt. How it is coming? From the perspiration, bad perspiration, bad smell. Not that every time the male-female combination required. There are other sources also.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, that is called spontaneous generation, and scientists have so-called proven that that cannot occur. It's called a folk myth or something like this, folklore, that birth can take place without the male and female union.

Prabhupāda: No. How it is coming from the bed, unclean bed? How it is coming, the grass? They are also living entity. The seeds are already there. They are like egg. And as soon as there is watering, then it is fructified and it comes. Similarly, the egg, fermentation... What is called? Fermentation?

Dr. Mize: Fertilization.

Prabhupāda: Fertilization. Not fertilize. The birds sit on the egg.

Dr. Mize: Incubation.

Prabhupāda: Incubation, yes. They are artificially incubating, and the chickens are coming from the egg.

Dr. Mize: If it's been fertilized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, not fertilized. They are keeping in certain temperature.

Dr. Mize: It has to have both—fertilization and incubation.

Prabhupāda: Both?

Dr. Mize: Both. The egg cannot become a chicken unless it has been fertilized.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that... It is coming out of that egg, so there is life. We do not recommend prohibition of eggs because living entity. It is not very good food. It agitates the senses. Therefore we prohibit. Yes?

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the doctor's first question that he brought up, that although we are conscious, our consciousness seems to be affected by different material arrangements. There's one philosopher, William James, who is like the father of psychology. He says the same thing, that consciousness can be affected by removing the material elements. So that is simply the arrangement of the modes of nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same three guṇas. If you contact with tamo-guṇa, then your consciousness is tamo-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, sattva-guṇa, and if your consciousness is always with Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Mize: James had a very interesting view of consciousness. The brain doesn't cause the consciousness, he felt. It does not originate it. It only receives it like a radio receiver is receiving transmissions.

Prabhupāda: That is the...

Dr. Mize: He felt that the source of consciousness was divine. James was a religious man.

Bahulāśva: Sometimes also he would have a material view, also.

Dr. Mize: That matter can give rise to consciousness.

Bahulāśva: Yes. He would take both sides.

Dr. Mize: His final stand on it was theistic, that the brain simply gives transmission of the consciousness through it. It does not produce it, whereas in the Soviet philosophy, that is that matter gives rise to consciousness.

Jayatīrtha: Where do they have any example that matter has given rise...

Dr. Mize: This. They point to us. They deny a soul. There is simply matter, the brain, that generates consciousness. (pause) This is delicious.

Devotee: More, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No.

Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Rāmeśvara would like to show you some paintings. They are bringing the book to the printer this evening.

Prabhupāda: All right. I am coming. (break)

Rāmeśvara: "...and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self."

Prabhupāda: Unmotivated means, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, service of Kṛṣṇa, is so nice. Let me begin immediately." Now, "What will be the result? What shall I gain? What is the profit?" no such consideration. "Begin immediately." And if you begin in that way, there is no impediment. Apratihatā. It is so nice thing. In the material world, if you want to begin some work, then you require some preliminary qualification. It doesn't require any preliminary qualification. Whatever qualification you have got, that is sufficient. Begin. And nobody can say, "Oh, I am not educated," "I am not rich," or "I am not born of a high family." There are so many. No. These things are not impediments. Educated or uneducated, culture or no culture, it doesn't matter; you can begin immediately. The Indian culture was checked by the caste brāhmaṇas, that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant for the Hindus." Therefore it was not spread. Such a great thing, philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā, remained covered because they thought it is meant for the Hindus, for the Indians; or those who came out of India, they misinterpreted in a rubbish way. And now it is being presented as it is, it is becoming effective. Therefore apratihatā: nothing material can check its progress. Unless one voluntarily refuses it, there is no checking. Some other professor was to come?

Brahmānanda: Yes, but he did not come.

Bahulāśva: I spoke this morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with Dr. Judah.

Prabhupāda: Where he is?

Bahulāśva: He'll be arriving tomorrow night. He just got in from Boston, and he wanted one day to rest a little bit, and then he'll be coming tomorrow night. He'll probably get here around seven o'clock, and then he'll come on the walk in the morning and then you can, as you like, you can speak with him that day. He has spoke already with the publisher, the Wiley Company and he is getting permission that you wanted him to publish some part of his book, that preface. So he is getting permission from them to do that. He also... I was speaking with him. He also said that if you wanted, he would write more different things supporting our movement—some little thing to print, like some little book, like we had The Scientific Basis. He could write some little things independently, and we could print whatever you like. He is very eager to help.

Rāmeśvara: You mean like a foreword?

Bahulāśva: Whatever you like.

Rāmeśvara: He could print some foreword and it would be inserted in our book?

Bahulāśva: He said he'll write whatever Prabhupāda wants. He is surrendered.

Prabhupāda: Learned scholars, philosophers, they should understand the importance of this movement and how it is beneficial. They are suffering for want of knowledge of the spirit soul. They are keeping themselves in the animal platform with their so-called education, but unless there is spiritual understanding, the education has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇa mano-rathena asato dhavato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). He will remain on the mental platform. And mind is now materially contaminated. So even if he remains in the mental platform..., he remains in the material platform, he cannot make any improvement. One has to come to the spiritual platform. That is required.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Prabhupāda, what is the symptom that you have reached the spiritual platform?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dharmādhyakṣa: What is the symptom that one has reached, practically reached, the spiritual platform?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). These persons who are on the mental platform, they will argue, "The animal has no soul."

Dr. Mize: I did not understand the answer.

Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda said that those who are on the mental platform will argue that the animal has no soul. They will be hankering and lamenting...

Prabhupāda: These are the signs of material platform.

Jayatīrtha: On the spiritual platform you're able to see all living beings equally, but on the mental platform...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. (aside:) Find out this verse.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ
(BG 5.18)

(end)