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750521 - Morning Walk - Melbourne

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

750521MW-MELBOURNE - May 21, 1975 - 39:15 Minutes

Madhudviṣa: . . . cannot become a medical practitioner by simply reading the books. He must study under a medical practitioner. So in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?

Prabhupāda: No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand, you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you have to contact with the author always.

Śrutakīrti: Just like the textbooks are not written by the teachers; they're written by other professors.

Paramahaṁsa: Usually you don't even meet the author.

Prabhupāda: Simply one who knows the subject matter, he can explain.

Madhudviṣa: But can your . . . would your purports, would that serve as a explanation besides . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. Not necessarily the author is required to be present there. (break)

(on walk) . . . to study from a medical man. I never said you have to study from the author. Or one who understood the author's purpose. Just like we are explaining Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Not that one has to learn directly from Kṛṣṇa. One who has understood Kṛṣṇa—from him. That is paramparā system.

Madhudviṣa: Also, in the lecture last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that after the water subsides, then the trees come out, and then the insects, then the birds. That would indicate that the creation takes place in stages.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Madhudviṣa: It would indicate that the creation of this universe takes place in stages, over quite a long period of time, and this is what the scientists also claim. Darwin's theory is similar to that, that first there was water, then vegetation came up, and then gradually, gradually, each and every species evolved, like that. So is there some correlation between those . . . (indistinct) . . . two?

Prabhupāda: But the varieties of creation, not that everything is coming like that. Just like Brahmā was first created, the first intelligent man. So although there was water, he was above water. He was on the lotus flower, which is not in the water. So that is also creation. So suppose this part is not covered by water—you see grass. But where there is lake there is no grass. So both things are there. Somewhere where there is water, unless the water is dried up, there is no grass. But somewhere you will find, immediately, grass, but there is no water. Or above water. So far the material elements are concerned, that is this stage. But the material elementary presentation, in different places, different way.

Madhudviṣa: From the Bhāgavatam we understand, though, that Brahmā first created human species of life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, from him.

Madhudviṣa: So if he created the human species of life, how is the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that other's creation was there. Just like Lord Śiva, he began to create all demons. The Brahmā stopped it. So somebody was creating demons, somebody was creating animals.

Madhudviṣa: Oh, different Manus, uh, different procreators were creating different types.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: Paramahaṁsa was . . . we were discussing this morning about the species of life. We understood that there is actually all the species of life on this one planet, or some species don't exist here?

Prabhupāda: No, everywhere the same process. Everywhere there are living entities in different forms.

Śrutakīrti: The 8,400,000 species is for the whole universe, or for each planet?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, whole universe.

Paramahaṁsa: So not all of those species are on this planet.

Prabhupāda: No, all of them are there.

Paramahaṁsa: On this planet.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: And the demigods we cannot see. Like the demigods, the higher human species, we cannot see.

Prabhupāda: You, why do you believe on your seeing? That is the defect. That is the defect of the Westerners. They are very deficient; still they say, "I cannot see." What is your seeing power? Suppose if Nārada comes, some demigods come, but you cannot see. Just like when Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva appeared, Prahlāda was seeing. "Is your God here?" "Yes." And he could not see. So why do you believe so much on your seeing? You have to attain seeing power. That is very good example, Prahlāda . . . Hiraṇyakaśipu asking Prahlāda, "Where is your God?" "My God is everywhere." "He is on the pillar?" "Yes." So he was seeing, but he was not seeing. He became angry and broke the pillar: "Let me see where is your God." This is the position. So one has to create the eyes to see things. Not that whatever eyes you have got you can see everything. No. Just like motorcar is being driven, a child is seeing that the car is running automatically. And the father is seeing, "No, there is driver." So the seeing of the child and seeing of the father is different. In our childhood we were thinking that in the gramophone box there is a man. And the fan, there is a ghost. (laughter) I remember quite. "How these records are being played? There must be one man. He is singing." And the electric fan was running, I was thinking there is some ghost. This is the way.

Madhudviṣa: The demons are trying to go to the heavenly planets by building their skyscrapers higher and higher.

Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa's, Rāvaṇa's staircase for going to the heaven. He promised that "Oh, what is the use of austerity? I shall make a staircase directly. You can go." As their . . . it is the same, Rāvaṇa's staircase and the modern attempt to go to the moon planet, the same thing. They will never be able to go, but imagining that "We shall do it." The same process, Rāvaṇa's process. For how many years they are going? Since 1950?

Devotee: To the moon expedition?

Prabhupāda: Yes, moon expedition.

Devotee: Maybe 1955.

Madhudviṣa: 1955.

Devotee (2): The first moon landing was 1961.

Prabhupāda: That is beginning. First of all they sent dog. (laughter)

Madhudviṣa: Space dog. Space mouse.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Space mouse.

Paramahaṁsa: Space monkey also.

Prabhupāda: So since 1955 even. So twenty years, what they have done?

Paramahaṁsa: Spent billions of dollars.

Prabhupāda: Yes, simply they have brought little dust, that's all.

Madhudviṣa: Now they have found that that same dust is here on the earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply propaganda. They are not going. Now the Russian scientist and American scientist are combined. Because both of them thieves, so one thief is asking, "Don't expose me; I will not expose you, so that our business will go on." This is the way. "Let us combine together and cheat these rascals, and otherwise, if you expose me, then I will expose you. Then our business will stop."

Devotee: They are cooperating.

Prabhupāda: Cooperating. Thief, thief's cooperation.

Devotee (3): In the Bhāgavatam in Canto Two, it's mentioned here that without discrimination both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees in the Lord's personal abode. I was wondering if you could explain how this is possible.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the explanation of the śāstra. Those who are devotees . . . you can see the devotees, they are gods, demigods. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daivaḥ. Viṣṇu-bhakta, those who are devotees of Viṣṇu, Vaiṣṇava, they are demigods. So why do you say we do not see the demigods?

Madhudviṣa: It also says the demons.

Prabhupāda: Demons, those who are not devotees. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. Those who are opposing these Vaiṣṇavas, they are asuras.

Madhudviṣa: But how is it that a demon is worshiping the Lord? It says in the Bhāgavatam, he just read, that the demons are also worshiping the Lord in His personal abode.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When the demon is promoted to the Vaikuṇṭha, they also become. Just like you are all now Vaiṣṇava. (laughter) Why don't you compare with yourself? The others are seeing, "What these mlecchas, yavanas, how they can become Vaiṣṇava?" They are seeing like that. Therefore they object. The Vṛndāvana, "How these Europeans can worship Deity?" They are protesting.

Paramahaṁsa: We can show them this verse.

Prabhupāda: Well, there are many verses. When one is qualified, he is no longer demon. (break) . . . big, big sannyāsīs. So I was a gṛhastha. They are now saying, "How this gṛhastha is doing? He was a gṛhastha. He never lived with us." They are saying in that way. (break) Tree has spread the roots solid standing. Just see how carefully it is going.

Madhudviṣa: In the courtyard back at the temple I would like to grow one nim tree. That be nice?

Prabhupāda: Nim tree, how you can get?

Madhudviṣa: I think we can grow. Get some seed from India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Scientists cannot purify the sea water and use it profusely. Why they are depending on rain? Let them purify it and take so much water.

Devotee (2): It's a very costly process, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Therefore I am asking.

Madhudviṣa: Kṛṣṇa is doing it. He is taking the water from the sea and putting it up in the sky, and it becomes very pure.

Prabhupāda: Millions and millions of tons water taken and distributed. Why their scientists so proud of their achievement? What they can do?

Madhudviṣa: Hmm. It is amazing. There is no factory in the sky to purify the water. Simply by the evaporation of the sun, the water is held up in the sky, and immediately it comes down pure.

Prabhupāda: And it is stored on the mountain head and it comes down. Eternal supply. Whole year's supply through the rivers, huge water. You have seen that, what is name, Niagara Falls?

Madhudviṣa: Yes. You have seen? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Huge water. There are many falls like that. Clean, clear, nice, sweet water is coming. There is sweet-water sea also.

Madhudviṣa: In the sea.

Prabhupāda: No, not here. In the sky. There is sweet water, very sweet, nice water, drinking water, sea. Sea of ghee, sea of yogurt, sea of milk. Everything is there. (japa)

Madhudviṣa: Here is a Government House. Simply a monument now.

Prabhupāda: The governor lives there?

Madhudviṣa: Yes. They still let them fly the flag, the British flag.

Prabhupāda: British flag?

Madhudviṣa: They still let them fly the British flag on top of the house.

Prabhupāda: They have disconnected the British?

Madhudviṣa: Yes, but there is some traditional respect. (break) When you were speaking with the priest yesterday, he was saying the chanting is material because it comes out of the mouth and it's made like a material sound vibration. Would it be possible for them to run scientific tests on the chanting, the sound of Hare Kṛṣṇa, to make a distinction between that sound and let's say the sound of an automobile's horn? Would that be perceptible?

Prabhupāda: No, the same sound. Sound is the same; when you are impure, this is material. Just like the tongue is the same, but when you are suffering from jaundice, you are tasting sugar as bitter, and when you will be cured, then the same tongue will taste it is sweet. So it depends on the purification of the body. Whole this bhakti-yoga or any yoga, the whole system is purification. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). Our existence is now impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease. And when it is purified, without any contamination, then there is no birth, death, old age. In diseased condition you cannot relish. Even if you are given actually rasagullā you will not taste it very nice. If there is no appetite, even it is rasagullā, it is useless. Spiritual life means curing the contamination of material disease. That is spiritual life. And when you are purified, you relish the spiritual taste.

Madhudviṣa: That is a subjective experience. When you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa you can say, "Oh, I feel good," but to someone who won't chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if there was some objective way of measuring the difference between the Hare Kṛṣṇa sound and the sound of, let's say, someone's name . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the sound is the same. I gave you the example. The tongue is the same, but according to your condition of life you taste differently. Tongue is not different. But if you are diseased, then with this tongue you taste something else. And if you are in healthy condition, with the same tongue you can taste differently.

Devotee (3): So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the sound is the same, does that mean that when you become fully purified you will also see the sound of an automobile horn as transcendental?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is transcendental, this microphone, because it is being used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The same flower, when you use it for sense gratification, it is material. The same flower when you offer to Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. The flower is not different, but by the different use it becomes material and spiritual. I think I have said many times that there is actually no material existence. Therefore it is called māyā. Māyā means it has no actual existence. We create an atmosphere. That is māyā. Atmosphere of forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa, that is māyā. Anartha. Anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam (SB 1.7.6). If this park is given to us, we can immediately make it Vaikuṇṭha. We know how to do it. But it is not given to us.

The same electric energy is creating heater and cooler. For the cooler there is no different electric energy. And for the heater there is no different—the same electric. Similarly, the material and spiritual is coming from Kṛṣṇa's energy. How Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? That is spiritual. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "These material elements, they are also My energy." So how Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? Bhinna, separated, a little separated, that's all. Separated means as soon as you separate Kṛṣṇa from anything, that is material. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to dovetail everything with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be spiritual. As soon as you say these demons, they separate Kṛṣṇa, "What is Kṛṣṇa? What is God? We are scientist, we are technicians and so on, so on. We create our own thing," that means they don't dovetail with Kṛṣṇa; therefore they are materialist. When we want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And Kṛṣṇa gives chance, "All right, you enjoy without Me." And when he is, what is called, disgusted, then Kṛṣṇa comes once, "Now you have experienced. You haven't got happiness. Now give up this attitude to enjoy without Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam . . . (BG 18.66). "Do it." This is going on. The rascals, they want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are dancing with Kṛṣṇa; the dancing is here also, ball dance. Why they do not get any pleasure? Without Kṛṣṇa. You dance with Kṛṣṇa, you get real pleasure.

So our business is to educate people that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa. You try to understand." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are trying to forget Kṛṣṇa. That is your argument. Just like the materialistic person argue, "Why shall I do this? Why shall I go to Kṛṣṇa?" They argue simply this. Actually, there cannot exist anything without Kṛṣṇa. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, Kṛṣṇa says. "All this, whatever you see, that is My expansion of energy. Everything is resting on Me." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything is on Me." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ. By bhakti-yoga gradually he develops that "Everything—vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)—oh, everything is Kṛṣṇa." Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That mahātmā is very rare who can see everywhere Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. How it is realized . . .

Madhudviṣa: Some people want to artificially jump to that stage of seeing everything is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). That stage is attained after many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. When one is actually wise, he can see, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, everything is Kṛṣṇa." Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is very rare. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛ . . . (BG 9.13). At that time he is under the control of spiritual energy. And what is the sign? Bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. He has no other business than to render service to Kṛṣṇa, that's all. What is that?

Madhudviṣa: Dangerous tree.

Śrutakīrti: It says, "This tree is dangerous in a high wind."

Devotee: It will break.

Prabhupāda: Oh. And this path is not dangerous? (laughter) Everything is dangerous in the material world. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām (SB 10.14.58). In every step there is equal danger. That is material life. (break) . . . they claim equal rights, man and woman. Why in the lavatory they are different?

Madhudviṣa: They also want to have the same there.

Prabhupāda: Why there is difference, Ladies and Gents? Why not equal right?

Śrutakīrti: In some of our modern universities they are doing that.

Prabhupāda: Advancing.

Śrutakīrti: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see, foolishness. But at least somewhere there is no equal right—in the lavatory. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (greeting someone) I have received your letter, you can see me. (break)

(in car) This too much intermingling of woman means the path of hell. Therefore the restriction is that only the married couple can freely mix, not others. Mahat-sevāṁ dvār (SB 5.5.2) . . . that is the defect of the modern civilization. They are not interested associating with devotees. They are interested associating with man or woman, that's all. Woman is interested to associate with man, and man is interested to associate with woman. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam (SB 5.5.2). Therefore the civilization is becoming hellish. It is already said in the śāstra. One should associate with spiritually advanced men, but that is not being done. Now the woman is hankering after man, man is hankering after woman. Yoṣit saṅg . . . yoṣit means for sense gratification. Tamo-dvāram. This is the path of darkness. Just like the priest was saying, "Oh, sex is very nice. Why you stop?" Just see. And he is a priest. Why the Roman Catholics, they are ordered not to marry? Why? Roman Catholic are supposed . . . the fathers and priests, they should remain unmarried. Eh? Is it not?

Madhudviṣa: Yes. They remain celibate. He was saying that it is a personal preference.

Paramahaṁsa: They have no general rule. It's just that if you want to be celibate, then that's very nice, but if you want to have sex life . . .

Prabhupāda: Then why they have recommended this, unless there is some benefit?

Śrutakīrti: Well, that knowledge has been lost through the years. A few hundred years ago, many of the celibates were also vegetarian, but all that has changed.

Prabhupāda: That means they are gliding down towards hell, that's all. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Now they are coming to the platform of homosex. This is their advancement, spiritual advancement. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. This is Coca-Cola, everywhere.

(break) . . . mukti, liberation, and the word salvation is the same? Then what is the meaning of salvation?

Madhudviṣa: Salvation means to be saved, liberation.

Prabhupāda: Then what do they mean by that liberation?

Madhudviṣa: Salvation means to be saved by Jesus. Saved by Jesus means to . . .

Prabhupāda: So what is the platform of that saving?

Madhudviṣa: To go to heaven, spiritual world.

Prabhupāda: There is idea of spiritual world?

Madhudviṣa: Well, there is kingdom of God, but they have vague idea. They say no man has seen God, nor has he seen His kingdom.

Prabhupāda: Then how Jesus saw?

Śrutakīrti: Well, he was not of this world. When they say no man of this world has seen . . .

Prabhupāda: So anyone who is not of this world, he can see. That we say also.

Śrutakīrti: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: But they say that no man has seen it nor described it.

Prabhupāda: No man has seen it, then how Jesus says that there is kingdom of God?

Madhudviṣa: He said there is the kingdom of God, but he has never described it.

Prabhupāda: Because you cannot understand it, you are rascals. He said that "Thou shall not kill," and you killed him. You are so intelligent. "And first of all let us kill this man who is advising, 'Thou shall not kill.'" Your intelligence is so sharp. Guru-māra-vidyā. First of all kill the guru. That is called guru-māra-vidyā. Guru advised that you take food in goodness, sāttvika. So he first of all advised that don't take fish, just like we are advising, meat, eggs, don't take. Then they thought that "The cow is very pure. Cow is very pure, so let us eat cow, sāttvika."

Śrutakīrti: That is pure, sāttvika.

Devotee: "Every part of the cow is pure, so we can eat every part of it."

Prabhupāda: So when Guru Mahārāja inquired that "You have given up everything bad?" "Yes, now we are eating cow." "What?" "No, it is sāttvika." "No, no, no, no, no. You cannot eat even." Then they thought, "Then what we shall eat? Guru Mahārāja is sāttvika, most sāttvika. So let us eat him." (laughter) So it is called guru-māra-vidyā: "For sāttvika eating, let us eat Guru Mahārāja." This is intelligence. "Why so much botheration seeking here and there? The Guru Mahārāja is there."

(kīrtana as approaching temple)

Śrutakīrti: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)