730918 - Conversation - Bombay

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



730918R1-BOMBAY - September 18, 1973 - 58:34 Minutes



Prabhupāda:

Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ.

You know Sanskrit. You know Sanskrit?

Guest (1): Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda:

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-karaḥ
(SB 10.84.13)

Go-kharaḥ. Go means cow, and kharaḥ means ass. Those who are living life the bodily concept of life, they're simply go-kharaḥ, just like cows and asses. So at the present moment, it is a civilization of go-kharaḥ. They may be proud, advanced civilized man, but the śāstra says that "You are all asses and cows." And we speak on the basis of śāstra. Don't be angry upon... We see all the cows and asses.

(break) (low level audio)

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ
prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase
gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca
nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ
(BG 2.11)

"You are talking like a very nice, learned scholar, but no learned man talks like this." That means "You are a fool." (laughter) He's friend, so He's talking very mildly that "You are, you are trying to talk like a learned scholar, but actually no learned scholar speaks like this." That means, "You are a fool."

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Nobody knows. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, from one body to another, we are doing that, every moment, but these rascals, they do not know. I was a child, I was a boy. Where is that body? It is gone. It is a fact. I am in a different body. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Still they won't believe that there is life after death. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ we are experiencing in this life. But they won't believe that after this deha, there is another deha. That they won't believe, such dull-headed. (Hindi) Are they dull-headed or are they intelligent scholar and scientist? What is your opinion? What is your opinion? You are practical man.

(break) That is later on, so 'ham. First of all, understand what you are aham, then so 'ham. You do not know what is aham. So these rascals, they do not know aham, and they're speaking so 'ham.

(break) When you understand yourself, then you understand God also. Then you'll understand that God and yourself are of the same ingredient, so 'ham. Just like if I say, "So 'ham. I am just like Indira Gandhi." Indira Gandhi is the big personality. So, "I am as good as Indira Gandhi." So this is applicable in this sense, that Indira Gandhi is Indian; I am also Indian. Indira Gandhi is a human being; I am also a human being. In this way, go on, analytical study. You'll find so many things, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. But still, you are not Indira Gandhi.

So so 'ham means to understand that "I am not this matter. I am the spirit soul, as good as the Supreme Lord." But that does not mean I am Supreme Lord, or as good as Supreme Lord. Qualitatively I am one, not quantitatively. Just like a drop of water from the sea.

(aside:) You can come here.

(break) All the chemicals in the drop of the seawater, you'll find in the sea also. But still, the drop of water is not equal to the sea. So so 'ham means qualitatively one with God, the Supreme. That not means that "I am the Supreme Lord." That is nonsense.

Guest (1): Ahaṁ sa brahma.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Ahaṁ sa brahma.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Brahman, the spirit soul is Brahman. Ahaṁ sa brahma. Kṛṣṇa is paraṁ brahma. Paraṁ dhāma pavitram..., paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. The paraṁ brahma. Kṛṣṇa is called paraṁ brahma, and we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are Brahman. The drop of water and the vast water. So Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, Supreme Person, and we are also persons, but not Supreme Person. Do you think you are Supreme Person? Anybody? So anyone thinks that "I am Supreme Person," he is a crazy fellow, madman. He can say, "I am person. Kṛṣṇa is a person; I am also person." That is all right. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is Vedic version. (break) Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234).

Guest (1): There are internal senses also?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): There are counterparts of senses also?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like your coat and shirt. The coat has got hand. But that is not hand. Real hand is within the coat. So actually the coat has no hands. So where is the question of coat having senses? Similarly, this material body is a lump of matter. Just like the dolls. The dolls are prepared with grass, hands and legs, and then it is plastered, and it becomes a nice doll. Similarly, we have got hands and legs, and this material is plaster. Therefore when the real hands and legs go away, they are no more hands and legs; they are simply lump of matter. Therefore, anyone thinks that this body, "I am," he's a fool. If you think that you are the coat, you are the shirt, then you are a fool.

Guest (1): Keśava, Kṛṣṇa, everything, one, every senses.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is all-spirit.

Guest (1): His senses are...?

Prabhupāda: Everything. He has no difference between the body and the soul. He's Supreme Soul, simply Supreme Soul.

Guest (1): He has no these external senses?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He has no external, internal. We are conditioned souls. We have got external, internal. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). Because people cannot understand it, they think that "Kṛṣṇa is like us."

Guest (1): He's not person, then, realistically.

Prabhupāda: He's person. Not like you person.

Guest (1): A different.

Prabhupāda: That you are always in want. Not like that. He's Supreme, full of all opulences. He's person, but not a person like us. The same example: Indira Gandhi is a person. I am also person. But not a person like me. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means person. He is sac-cid-ānanda. We are not ānanda. This body is not sat.

Guest (1): Not cit also, not full cit.

Prabhupāda: Neither cit, nor ānanda. So how you can be equal with Kṛṣṇa? You have got a different birth, you can have a... We have already, but it is plastered with matter. If you become without plaster, then you become as good as Kṛṣṇa—not in quantity, but in quality. Quality, you are already. But you have been covered with these dirty things.

Guest (1): Māyā.

Prabhupāda: So when these dirty things are washed, then you become as Kṛṣṇa as you in spirit sense. So at the present moment, we are with... Covered means with upādhi. Upādhi. Just like your naked body and this body with shirt and coat. When you take away the shirt and coat, you become original body. Similarly, when you stop accepting this plastering process of body, material body, in different shapes, then you become mukta.

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
(CC Madhya 19.170)

When you begin serving Kṛṣṇa in your original, spiritual body, that is called bhakti. (break) ...educated person. If you like, you can learn all the things. You read our books. You have got our books?

Guest (1): A few books I have got. Kṛṣṇa, I have got it.

Prabhupāda: So you are member?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then... (break) We have not very many followers because we disagree with all rascals. We are not rascal. (break) Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na sāntāya(?). Mūrkha upadeśa... (Hindi) If you give some lessons to the rascal, he becomes angry. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam (Nīti Śāstra). If you ask a serpent, "Sir, you don't bite anyone. You take your here milk, daily," the result will be he'll increase his venomous poison, and one day—"phansss." (sound imitating biting) You know the story? The kuta..., the wood-cutter and the snake. He found a snake. Snake, if it is not killed, then if you simply beat and becomes dead, again he revives life. You know that?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: By air. So somebody killed, but he did not cut or burn. So he again, into life. So a wood-cutter, what is called? Who cuts trees and wood? He felt sympathetic. He took away the snake and kept at home and gave him some milk. So one day, when he was strong, (makes hissing sound). (laughs) So he thought, "Oh, I gave you life, I gave you milk, and now you are trying to attack me?" He cut into pieces.

Therefore in the śāstra it is said, modeta sādhur api vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā (SB 7.9.14). When Prahlāda Mahārāja's father was killed by Hiraṇya..., I mean to say, Nṛsiṁha-deva, Prahlāda Mahārāja prayed, "Sir, You reduce Your anger now. Nobody is displeased with You, because my father was just like a scorpion and snake, and when a scorpion and snake is killed, nobody's unhappy. So nobody is unhappy. Your action is not decried by anyone. Please now become in Your sense." So in the whole living entities, kingdom of living entities, the vṛścika, vṛścika and sarpa...

Guest (1): Scorpion.

Prabhupāda: ...they are very dangerous. So if vṛścika and sarpa is killed, nobody's unhappy. (break) ...in Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ, sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ. A jealous, envious man, he's also crooked, and the snake, it is also crooked. But the man practiced to jealousy is more dangerous than the snake. "Why? He's human being. He's still more dangerous?" "Yes." "Why?" Mantrauṣadhi-vaśaḥ sarpaḥ: you can bring under control the snake by mantra and drugs. Khalaḥ kena nivāryate: and the jealous man cannot be subdued. Therefore he's more dangerous than the snake.

Guest (2): Than the snake. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...that here is a very nice, educated man. He's very nice. But we say, "No. Because he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's as dangerous as if he is ordinary man." We don't give any credit. (break)

Acyutānanda: Which is more important: to go back to Godhead or to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Well, one who is preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's already back to Godhead. (break) ...īhā yasya harer dāsye karmaṇā manasā vācā (Brs. 1.2.187). Preacher means he has engaged his body, his mind, his speeches only to glorify the Lord. That is preacher. So anybody who's engaged that business, he's jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate. He's liberated even in this life. (break) ...even if he's liberated. So why he should seek for liberation? He's already liberated. He's already back to Godhead. He's already with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is talking with him. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi... (BG 10.10).

One who is actually preacher, engaged in Kṛṣṇa's glorification, service, he's already in Vaikuṇṭha. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Etad īśanam... (SB 1.11.38). It's just like Kṛṣṇa, if He comes within this material world, does it mean that He's in the material world? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's pure devotee, he's not in the material world. In the spiritual world.

Guest (1): He gets the body? Does he get the body?

Prabhupāda: Therefore it's said, jīvan-mukta. Although he is within this body, still he is mukta. Just like... Example is you take a rod, put into the fire; by association of fire it becomes red hot. At that time, it is fire, not rod. Similarly, if one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious—he has no other business than to glorify Kṛṣṇa—he's already in the Vaikuṇṭha. Why should he...? Therefore kṛṣṇa-bhakta doesn't require any mukti. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān. Mukti's serving him.

(break) Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, mama janmani janmani (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4), birth after birth. And when you go back to home, back to Godhead, there is no birth. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). You don't return. But here Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Birth after birth." So he's already mukta, he's already in the Vaikuṇṭha. Is that clear? Yes. Therefore kṛṣṇa-bhakta is niṣkāma. He has no any desire, because he's already fulfilled with all desires. He's, he's in the service of the Lord.

Acyutānanda: Well, like sometimes the devotees are preaching, but they get feelings of getting entangled, so they want to...

Prabhupāda: That means it is not yet perfect preacher. He requires perfection.

Acyutānanda: So they argue with me or some other...

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of arguing.

Acyutānanda: No, they say, "Well, I want to fix myself up," and we want them to preach.

Prabhupāda: Preaching is our only business. Preaching. Whatever we do, it is aimed at preaching.

(aside:) Namaskāra. (break)

That is our business. Whatever we are doing, it is for preaching. (break) In, in the practice or in the engagement of preaching, their position is better than those who are worshiping the Lord in a secluded place, bhajanānandī.

Acyutānanda: What about those who are preaching, but imperfectly, and those who are...?

Prabhupāda: Even it is imperfect...

Acyutānanda: It's better than just sitting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) If he's sincere, it cannot be imperfect. Because... We are always imperfect, but Kṛṣṇa will help us. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam (BG 10.10). How he can be imperfect? Kṛṣṇa will give him intelligence. Imperfect means whose intelligence is not perfect. But when Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence, how he can be imperfect? He may be imperfect, but he's being helped by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's not imperfect.

Guest (1): Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation).

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's associating with Kṛṣṇa. And unless one is confidential devotee of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa does not speak with him. But when he becomes perfect confidential servitor, Kṛṣṇa speaks with him, "Do like this, do like that," and he'll do that. And therefore in his action, you won't find any fault. (break) If somebody perfect instructs him, "Do like this," then my action is not imperfect. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If I say, "Yes, you give up everything. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then I am perfect. And if I say, "So 'ham. I am Kṛṣṇa," then you are imperfect.

Is that...? (break) "...the same. I am the Lord. I am the Supreme." They're all imperfect. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They have been described as rascals. They are strongly thinking that they are liberated. They're rascals. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They are talking like nonsense because their intelligence is not..., it is purified. He's therefore wrongly thinking that "I am the Supreme Lord. I am moving the sun." These rascals, they meditate, "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon. I am this, I am that." This is their meditation. So 'ham. So they are rascals. And how you can become the Supreme? As soon as you have got a toothache, you have to go to the doctor. And he was thinking he was supreme. Nonsense. Rascal.

(break) ...bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). These are Māyāvādīs, those who are after, "I am the Supreme." They are Māyāvādīs. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Anyone who hears the philosophy of Māyāvādī, he is doomed. He is gone." (break) ...teaching, "Why you are seeking after God?" Just like Vivekananda taught, "Oh, why you are seeking after God? Don't you see so many Gods are on the street? They are hungry. They are lame. They are daridra-nārāyaṇa. Why don't you worship them?" This is Māyāvādī. So if we take Vivekananda's version, and be engaged in the service of the daridra-nārāyaṇa, then I am misled. (break) ...preaching this daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā for hundreds of years, at least one hundred years, but still, there are daridras. Even in the city like Bombay, still. Fifty years ago I came. I saw there are the residents of the footpath, having a small... Eh?

Guest (1): The pipe.

Prabhupāda: And still I find. When the rice is selling at eight rupees kilo, and when the rice was selling three rupees a maund, at that time also they were on the footpath, resident, and now also.

Guest (2): Now also.

Prabhupāda: Now also. So how you can stop this?

Guest (1): It is God's desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is nature's arrangement. And those who are rich... There were richer section when the rice was selling at three rupees per maund, and the richer section is still there when rice is selling, nine rupees a kilo. So they have no eyes, because less intelligent. They cannot make equal. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Prakṛti, in the prakṛti there are three modes of material nature. They will be manifested. It is not possible to make everyone of the same standard. The standard must be different. So they are simply spoiling their time to make the whole society on the same status. The Communists are trying, the others are trying. That is not possible. So one should not be disturbed with all these superficial low and high places. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,

yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete
puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha
sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīraṁ
so 'mṛtatvāya kalpate
(BG 2.15)

One is not disturbed with this outwards happiness and distress, he's eligible to become immortal. Saḥ amṛtatvāya. How? (Hindi) Yaṁ hi... (break) ...amṛta, eternal. And that is perfection. And that is going back to home, back to Godhead. But they do not know what is the aim of life. Still they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31): leaders are blind, and they're leading blind men. Therefore there is always disaster, confusion.

Guest (1): The aim of life is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Aim is go home, back to Godhead. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). That is our aim. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. (break)

Guest (3) (Indian man): We have a company for interior decorating.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (3): We have a company for interior decorating.

Prabhupāda: India decorating?

Guest (3): Interior decorating.

Prabhupāda: Interior, oh.

Guest (3): And... (break) ...and become one now.

Prabhupāda: You are always. But you forgot. That is our position.

Guest (3): No, I believe I was respecting all religions, all gods, but now I think I lay more emphasis on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: How all can be all Gods then? That is practical. If everyone is God, then what is the meaning of God? If... Do you think everyone is president, everyone is Indira Gandhi? Indira Gandhi is one. The Prime Minister cannot be many. It is a commonsense. How everyone can be God? This is nonsense. Anyone thinks that there are many Gods, he does not know what is God. Aiye. God is one. Ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti. Therefore there is no education what is God. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagava..., mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "Nobody else superior than Me." That is God. Asama-ūrdhva. God is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as asama-ūrdhva.

(aside:) You can come this side? Let them come forward. You can sit down...

(break) ...equal to God. And nobody can be greater than God. That is "God is great." If somebody becomes equal to you, how you can be great? Or if somebody is higher than you, then how you can be great? So there is no equal to God, nor greater than Him. That is God. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7).

(break) "...anyone greater than Me." That is God. There are so many Gods, false Gods, nowadays. Can anyone say that "Nobody is greater than me"? All these rascal Gods, can he say? Can anyone say? Immediately he feels some sickness, immediately he has to call greater God, physician. And he's claiming, "I am God." We don't want such kind of God, manufactured God. We want real God. When we see nobody is greater than Him, that is God. (break) We accept so many pseudo, pretender, as God. But we do not know how to test him, whether he is greater than everyone. Whether nobody is greater than him. Then he's God. Can you find out any, so many Gods, who has no greater than him, or equal to him? You are claiming you are God, I am also claiming God. Then we are equal. Then how you can be God or how I can be God? We are equals. As soon as you find there are equals, or as soon as find there is greater, then you are not God. God—the great. He must be greater than everyone.

Therefore śāstra has concluded, īśvara, God; parama, the Supreme; Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. And why? Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). His body is sat, cit, sac-cid-ānanda. Now you test. Your body's not sac-cid-ānanda. Sat means eternal, cit means full of knowledge, ānanda means full of bliss. Is, is my body sac-cid-ānanda, this body? No. It is not eternal. It is full of ignorance. It is full of miseries. Then how it can be God? So God..., there cannot be many Gods. Many Gods, that is not many, that is one. Just like you have got millions of photographs. That does not mean you are million. You are one, but you have expanded millions. Just like the sun is found in every pot. In millions of pot, you keep, and the sun is reflected. Does it mean the sun has become million? No. The sun is one. Similarly...

Guest (3): Reflections.

Prabhupāda: Reflections. These are examples. Similarly, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is in everyone's heart. That does not mean God is many. He's one. But He has got such inconceivable power that that oneness can be distributed into millions. Advaya. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. Although God expands Himself in many forms, still, He's advaita, one. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). He's the original person; still, always fresh, young. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, you'll find always fresh. That picture of Kṛṣṇa, you see. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca. Just a fresh, young man. In the Bhagavad-gītā, you see. Kṛṣṇa is driving. He's fresh, young man. But Arjuna has got mustaches.

Guest (3): People who are not aware of Kṛṣṇa, and are living...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): ...and it may take time for your people to educate them. Till then they are not aware they are accepting somebody.

Prabhupāda: Then they are cats and dogs. They are doing something also.

Guest (3): No, but...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Cats and dogs, they are doing some business.

Guest (3): What percentage of people today know about Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That we do not know. But anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is, more or less, like cats and dogs. Maybe bigger dog, bigger cat. Just like amongst the dogs, there are different varieties also. So similarly, he belongs to that dog, cat class.

Guest (2): Now if he is not got, then what shall he do to become aware?

Prabhupāda: No, everyone gets opportunity. But he'll not take the opportunity.

Guest (2): In this country, yes, everybody has got opportunity.

Prabhupāda: Not... Every country, every, all over the world. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śara... (BG 18.66). The opportunity's open for everyone, but he'll not do it. He'll say, "Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa?"

Indian woman: But, Guru Mahārāja, if one has some original faith in Jesus Christ or Muhammad, would he...? They think they're sons of God or a messenger of God.

Prabhupāda: No, Jesus Christ says, "I am son of God." He never says, "I am God."

Indian woman: So if they follow Jesus Christ...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Son of God is as good as God. That is another thing. We have no objection. Suppose in a big office the father is there, the son is there, and the son has ordered something. The father will never say that "Don't do it." Because father and son, the same position. That is another thing.

Guest (1): But he is not Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): He is not Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: He's son of Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Guest (2): Now, if we take another example...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): ...that some people worship gods.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Guest (2): Some people who are strictly Śaivites...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. That's nice.

Guest (2): No, no. But then what is the connection then between Kṛṣṇa and Śiva?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Śiva, just like dahī and dudha. Dahī is nothing but dudha, but still it is not dudha.

Guest (2): It's a different form.

Prabhupāda: Not different form; different action also. If you want milk, if I give you dahī, and if I say, "Oh, dahī and dudha, the same thing. Why you are not accepting this dahī?" will you accept?

Guest (2): Correct.

Prabhupāda: Although the same thing, but action is different. If you become devotee of Lord Śiva, you'll get opportunity of material opulences. Because Lord Śiva is the husband of Durgā, and Durgā is the superintendent of this material world. So Durgā is under control. If one becomes a devotee of Lord Śiva, then Durgā gives him, eh? Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpavatī-bhāryāṁ dehi yaśo dehi. So you'll get all this, nice position, nice wife, nice power, famous... All this material, not spiritual. So to worship any other demigod than Kṛṣṇa is materialism. That is not spiritualism.

Guest (1): Worshiping Viṣṇu is also material?

Prabhupāda: No. Viṣṇu is not... Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu the same, expansion. That you have to understand.

Guest (2): Rāma also.

Prabhupāda: Rāma also.

rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan
nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu
kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs. 5.39)

Tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Yes. Kṛṣṇa also says, mām ekam.

Guest (2): What is the position of people like Guru Nanak, Muhammad, and other people?

Prabhupāda: They're servants of Kṛṣṇa. They are serving on behalf of Kṛṣṇa among certain people who cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like a student in the primary class, he does not know what is M.A. examination. Therefore teacher is teaching according to his position. But he's a teacher, he's an authorized teacher, appointed by the school authority.

Guest (2): So they're representatives.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they're... Just like Lord Buddha. We accept him as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But he preached, "There is no Kṛṣṇa. There is no God. I don't care for the Vedas."

Guest (2): He's flaunting the authority of...

Prabhupāda: No, he is authority himself. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare (Śrī Daśāvatāra-stotra 9). He's personally Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): Does he say so, or you...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sometimes he has to say so.

Guest (2): And he's allowed to say so.

Prabhupāda: That is... Just like...

Guest (2): Is he allowed to say so?

Prabhupāda: No, no. He is the Supreme, He can say. Just like a father cheats sometimes the son. The son has taken from the pocket of the father one hundred rupees' note. He's not separate. The father takes one lozenges, two paisa–worth: "Oh, my dear son, you can take it, very nice. You give me that." "Ah, yes." It is not cheating? He's giving two paisa–worth lozenges, and taking hundred rupees' note. Is it not cheating? This is cheating. But father is cheating; therefore it is good. You cannot imitate father and cheat others. Father can do anything for the welfare of the son. That is another thing. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa appears as a cheater, the atheist class of men and Lord Buddha say, "No, no, there is no God. Yes, it is all right. You are right. But you hear me." "Yes, sir, we shall hear you." But he's God. This is cheating.

Guest (1): Was he preaching karma-kāṇḍa?

Prabhupāda: He said that there is no God, but he's God. Just like the policeman sometimes cheats. He goes as a gambler, but he's a policeman. So that is another thing. Therefore if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you understand all these different activities. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. And you become liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. If anyone understands what is Kṛṣṇa, why He comes, what His activity is, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, you, after giving up this body, you haven't got to come again in this material world.

Simply by studying Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are preaching, "Simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...life is meant for to possess complete knowledge of the Supreme. That is perfection of knowledge. That is possible in the human form of life, not in the life of cats and dogs. That is not possible. So we have got this opportunity. If we spoil this life, living like cats and dogs, then we are missing the opportunity. This is the opportunity to understand Kṛṣṇa, God.

Guest (1): Merely knowing it won't...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Merely knowing won't do also?

Prabhupāda: No, if you know, you'll act. But if you do not know, how you'll act, in the darkness? But even if you know simply... That Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyam.

(aside:) Find out.

Devotee: Janma karma...

Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ, if you can understand, then your business is done. Then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Then, after giving up this body, you are not going to accept any more this material body. My problem is acceptance of this material body. That is my problem. Because these pains and pleasure, feeling of pains and pleasure, is due to my this body. Therefore Buddha philosophy is nirvāṇa: "Make this body zero." That is his philosophy. Nirvāṇa. Because people are bothered due to these pains and pleasures. Here everything is painful, but we take something pain as pleasure.

Guest (1): Something, some devotees want the body again and again for doing service also.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Some devotees want the body again and again...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee... Because people want perfection. But their perfection is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Their perfection is not to stop this body. But the... Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he's not living in this material world. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Anyone who's engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he's transcendental to these material qualities. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). (break) ...and then, after leaving this body, you are not going to accept a material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, you are under pains and pleasure. No pleasure, simply pains. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We are trying to avoid pains. But it is not possible. The real pain—birth, death, old age and disease—that remains. What is the use of temporary getting some so-called pleasure?

Guest (2): At what stage could one say that a person is Kṛṣṇa conscious? There must be a beginning stage...

Prabhupāda: He has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): And only then he's Kṛṣṇa conscious person?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). This is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business.

Guest (3): And if everybody became Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: Then everybody's becoming liberated. Where is the harm?

Guest (1): Does he mean he has to...?

Prabhupāda: Why to lament? "Oh, everyone is becoming good men. Nobody's coming in the prison." It is to be lamented? That nobody's coming in the prison house, it is very good news. But that will not take place.

Guest (3): Should it affect the normal duties?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (3): Should it affect the normal duties?

Prabhupāda: Real duty is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is normal duty. All, all other duties are abnormal duties, crazy duties. Just like pāgala, they're all crazy. There is a...

piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya
māyā-grasta jīvera se bhāva udaya
(Prema-vivarta 1)

Anyone who's under the clutches of māyā, or madness, what is the value of his duty? Śrama eva hi kevalam. He's simply spoiling his time. That is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
viṣvaksena kathāsu yaḥ
notpādayed ratiṁ yadi
śrama eva hi kevalam
(SB 1.2.8)

Just like you have come here, a little tendency for hearing about Kṛṣṇa. Your life is succ..., on the path of success. And there are other, millions, they're not interested. So for them, the śāstra says, "They're simply working like cats and dogs." Just like dogs sometimes goes very fast this way, that way, that way; they're passing with motorcar, this way, (makes barking sound) "onh, onh, onh, onh, onh, onh." They're simply spoiling time. In America I have seen, always, (makes automobile noise:) "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh." Here also.

But we see these rascals spoiling time. But that will not appeal to the rascals. They'll say, "They are spoiling time. What these rascals are dancing Hare Kṛṣṇa on the Fifth Avenue?" They think, "Oh, they are crazy fellow." Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī (BG 2.69). They are thinking us as in darkness; I am thinking, we are thinking, "They are in darkness." This is going on. But who is in darkness, that is to be decided by the supreme judgment of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore I have written one that book, Who is Crazy?

Devotee: Who is Crazy?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: That's a new book?

Prabhupāda: No, old book.

Indian woman: But, Guru Mahārāja, one has to do her duty as advised.

Prabhupāda: You do not know what is your duty, first of all. A madman, he does not know his duty.

Indian woman: But if he's chanting (indistinct) the whole day, then where is he going to get the money for his food?

Prabhupāda: Oh, where we are getting money? Where we are getting money? Just like in London, George Harrison has given us a house, fifty-five lakhs' worth. So if I wanted to possess this house by doing this business, three lifetimes would have been required. (chuckles) Not even three lifetimes. We are spending like anything. But we have no stock. We do not know what we shall eat tomorrow morning. We do not know. It is our position. We do not know what I shall eat tomorrow or this evening. But do you think we are starving? We have no problem.

Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa says, yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here it is. Kṛṣṇa is giving opportunity of eating for the cats and dogs, the birds and beasts, and I am engaged in His service, He'll not give me food? Because we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore we are thinking, "If I do not work like these cats and dogs, I'll starve." That is my imperfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And perfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness means he knows that "I have engaged my life in Kṛṣṇa's business. Kṛṣṇa is... Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).

He's feeding millions and millions of living entities, and he'll keep me starving?" Is it possible? That means he, he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He's thinking Kṛṣṇa is a fictitious thing. That is his position. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...then they would have been confident, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is feeding everyone. Why not me? What I have done? Because I am engaged in His service, therefore I shall starve?" And the devotee has no such question also, whether he'll starve or eat. It doesn't matter if he starves. It doesn't matter. He thinks, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has put me in this position, to starve."

Just like in hospital. A patient is ordered by the physician: "You should not eat anything." So he knows, "It is good for me." Similarly, a devotee, when he's starving, he knows that "Kṛṣṇa has put me in this starving condition. It is good for me." He never complains.

tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇo
bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam
hṛd-vāg-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te
jīveta sa mukti-pade dāya-bhāk
(SB 10.14.8)

Anyone lives in that way, that "Kṛṣṇa has put me in this distressed condition of life. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. I would have been put into more severe condition of life, but He is a little..., giving me little pain. So I must be very much obliged to Kṛṣṇa that He's so kind upon me." So if one lives like that, mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk, he has got the claim to become liberated. Just like a son has got the right to claim the property of father, similarly, one who lives like this, he has the claim to become liberated. Mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk. That is... This is Bhāgavata's statement. And similarly, in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated...

(aside:) Sit down. Yes. Why you are late? We have talked so many things.

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha (BG 2.15). That I have already explained.

mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
āgamāpāyino 'nityās
tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
(BG 2.14)

Just like one is in winter season, and the winter... Not in this country; in Western countries, it becomes below thirty degree. In Canada and what other places?

Acyutānanda: New Vrindaban.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Acyutānanda: New Vrindaban.

Prabhupāda: Virginia?

Acyutānanda: Oh, yes. Thirty below zero.

Prabhupāda: So we have no experience below zero degrees. But in Europe, America, there is places. In Russia also, below fifty degrees. But they do not stop their business. They know that "Winter season has come. It will go away again." So devotees, even they are in distressed condition, they know, "It has come due to my bad activities in the past. It will go away. Let me suffer and finish it." Just like if you become, all of a sudden, infected with some disease. So what? You'll go mad? No. You know that "I have infected this disease. Let me suffer a few days. It will go." That's all. This is the mentality of the devotees. They are not disturbed. And if he's not disturbed, then he's fit for becoming liberated.

yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete
puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha
sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīraṁ
so 'mṛtatvāya kalpate
(BG 2.15)

And our aim is amṛtatva, how to become immortal. That is our aim of life. So we have to achieve that goal of life. We should not be disturbed with this temporary distress and pleasure. That is called tapasya.

tapasā brahmacaryeṇa
śamena damena va
tyāgena satya-śaucena
yamena niyamena vā
(SB 6.1.13)

These are the processes to become perfect. Tapasā. First thing is tapasya. And nobody's prepared to undergo tapasya. And human life is made for tapasya. Therefore in Vedic civilization, you'll find tapasya. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they were all engaged in tapasya. Rājarṣi, devarṣi. Bharata Mahārāja, under whose name this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa, at the age of twenty-four years, he gave up his young wife, children, and went for tapasya.

Tapasya is the life of the human being. Not to live like cats and dogs. That is not human life. Restrained. Tapasya. But here there is no, at the present moment, there is no question of tapasya. Even one is ninety years old, he's still engaged in these material activities. Even a person like Gandhi, unless he was killed, he would not give up politics. The material activities are so palatable for the materialists, that even up to the point of death...

In Bengal, there was a big zamindar. So his father, er, his sons asked him at the time of death, "Father, what we can do for you, last desires?" So he expressed that "That man is my enemy. If you can bring him here and beat him with shoes, I'll be very much satisfied." This is material world. Even at the time of death, he's thinking enmity with others. And he will..., he wanted to be happy that "If you bring that man and beat him with shoes, I'll be very happy." The other day somebody said that one man was cut into two, and he was asked, "What do you want?" He said, "Give me a cigarette." (laughter) This is the position.

Guest (2): And he was cut into two.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was going to die; still he was asking, "Give me a cigarette." He does not know anything else. Therefore one has to practice. Ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). At the time of death if you can remember Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful.

Guest (2): This is very nice.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Simply if you can... Just like Ajāmila. He simply chanted "Nārāyaṇa." Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). He was saved from the greatest danger. So this human form of life should be so trained up that at the time of death you can remember Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa, now you can judge what I have done for You, and what You have done for me." Then give me that place. That's it." That... If you have worked whole life for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is not ungrateful. He'll give you.

Guest (3): Can a person become Kṛṣṇa consciousness only by renouncing, or can he do both, continue his life and also become Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: What we have renounced?

Guest (3): Well, you are not conducting any business. You are conducting the business of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So in Kṛṣṇa's business, there is no question of renouncement.

Guest (3): No, but that is not a specific things. But if somebody's carrying out a particular duty, does he have to renounce that...

Prabhupāda: That particular duty, you cannot manufacture. That particular duty is, as Kṛṣṇa says, if you cannot... Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... (BG 4.13). (break) (end)