730905 - Conversation B - Stockholm
(Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, Dr. Suneson. Chanting of Ādi-līlā 7.2–59 (05:36) plus "Hari hari bifale" (46:52))
Prabhupāda: What else?
Śrutakīrti: The vegetable.
Prabhupāda: What type vegetable?
Śrutakīrti: Cauliflower and peas and everything.
Prabhupāda: Oh, they have got cauliflower?
Śrutakīrti: Yes, they have cauliflower and tomatoes.
Prabhupāda: So you can give also two parāṭās to me.
Śrutakīrti: Now you mean?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And milk you have got?
Śrutakīrti: Yes. They have got. I think there's one other guest coming, isn't there?
Pradyumna: Is the professor coming?
Devotee: He was supposed to come a half an hour ago.
Śrutakīrti: There was a guest who was supposed to be here one half hour ago.
Pradyumna: He's a little late.
Śrutakīrti: So I'll bring it down.
Professor: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: These are our books. You have seen?
Professor: Yes, sir, seen . . . some of them, I've seen. This one in particular I have seen.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are . . . this is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. There are sixty volumes, books like this.
Professor: Sixty volumes like this?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Six zero. And you can see how we are doing Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Transliteration and word meaning, then translation, then purport.
Professor: Yes, I've studied the text myself.
Professor: I've studied the text myself.
Prabhupāda: I see. You have studied? How do you like it?
Professor: Yes, I like it very much.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Professor: I'm interested in the bhakti.
Prabhupāda: Which one you have studied?
Professor: Oh, well, I haven't read all of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, but of course, this Tenth Chapter I read.
Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto?
Professor: Yes, the Tenth Canto I read. And other parts, other parts also.
Prabhupāda: Oh. We have begun from the First Canto, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1).
(aside) You show him the verse, janmādy asya yataḥ. This is first . . .
Pradyumna: First volume.
Pradyumna: After introduction . . . (indistinct)
Professor: Yes, yes, it's . . .
Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye . . . like that.
Professor: You belong to the Caitanya . . .?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have translated Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is one chapter only, sample.
Professor: In the Bengali script. That's good.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in . . . Caitanya-caritāmṛta is in Bengali.
Professor: I've read also. I've read parts of that also.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya . . . original Bengali?
Prabhupāda: So you know Bengali?
Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. (laughs)
Professor: Yes. Sanskrit and Hindi and Bengali and Tamil.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oh, that's nice.
Professor: So I read lot of the Tamil bhakti scriptures.
Prabhupāda: Oh, I see.
Professor: The Alwars and the Nayanas.
Prabhupāda: I see. Just a . . . immediately he came, Damodaran, the Ambassador. He came just now.
Professor: Yes. Oh, he came just now?
Professor: He has left now?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, Ambassador Damodaran. He was . . . just prior to your coming, he was also meeting with Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes.
Prabhupāda: Just a half an hour before, he was here.
Professor: I see, I see. I know him well.
Prabhupāda: He's coming from Malayalam.
Prabhupāda: So we can see . . . you can see how we have done.
Professor: Do you recite this also, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Bengali?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Professor: Do you think you could do a little?
Professor: I would be very interested.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Shall I read? You want?
Prabhupāda: All right.
This is . . .
Professor: If you could read some of the Bengali part. Of course, in the beginning there are Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Only one verse.
Professor: Some Sanskrit.
Professor: But the pure Bengali.
- jaya jaya mahāprabhu śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya
- tāṅhāra caraṇāśrita, sei baḍa dhanya
You understand Bengali?
Prabhupāda: Or shall I explain?
Professor: Oh, well, I understand.
Prabhupāda: All right.
(chants verses 7.2–59 from Ādi-līlā in Bengali)
- (TEXT 2)
- jaya jaya mahāprabhu śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya
- tāṅhāra caraṇāśrita, sei baḍa dhanya
- (TEXT 3)
- pūrve gurv-ādi chaya tattve kaila namaskāra
- guru-tattva kahiyāchi, ebe pāṅcera vicāra
- (TEXT 4)
- pañca-tattva avatīrṇa caitanyera saṅge
- pañca-tattva lañā karena saṅkīrtana raṅge
- (TEXT 5)
- pañca-tattva—eka-vastu, nāhi kichu bheda
- rasa āsvādite tabu vividha vibheda
- (TEXT 6)
- pañca-tattvātmakaṁ kṛṣṇaṁ
- bhaktāvatāraṁ bhaktākhyaṁ
- namāmi bhakta-śaktikam
- (TEXT 7)
- svayaṁ bhagavān kṛṣṇa ekale īśvara
- advitīya, nandātmaja, rasika-śekhara
- (TEXT 8)
- rāsādi-vilāsī, vrajalalanā-nāgara
- āra yata saba dekha,—tāṅra parikara
- (TEXT 9)
- sei kṛṣṇa avatīrṇa śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya
- sei parikara-gaṇa saṅge saba dhanya
- (TEXT 10)
- ekale īśvara-tattva caitanya-īśvara
- bhakta-bhāvamaya tāṅra śuddha kalevara
- (TEXT 11)
- kṛṣṇa-mādhuryera eka adbhuta svabhāva
- āpanā āsvādite kṛṣṇa kare bhakta-bhāva
- (TEXT 12)
- ithe bhakta-bhāva dhare caitanya gosāñi
- "bhakta-svarūpa" tāṅra nityānanda-bhāi
- (TEXT 13)
- "bhakta-avatāra" tāṅra ācārya-gosāñi
- ei tina tattva sabe prabhu kari' gāi
- (TEXT 14)
- eka mahāprabhu, āra prabhu duijana
- dui prabhu seve mahāprabhura caraṇa
- (TEXT 15)
- ei tina tattva,—"sarvārādhya" kari māni
- caturtha ye bhakta-tattva,—"ārādhaka" jāni
- (TEXT 16)
- śrīvāsādi yata koṭi koṭi bhakta-gaṇa
- "śuddha-bhakta"-tattva-madhye tāṅ-sabāra gaṇana
- (TEXT 17)
- gadādhara-paṇḍitādi prabhura "śakti"-avatāra
- "antaraṅga-bhakta" kari' gaṇana yāṅhāra
- (TEXTS 18–19)
- yāṅ-sabā lañā prabhura nitya vihāra
- yāṅ-sabā lañā prabhura kīrtana-pracāra
- yāṅ-sabā lañā karena prema āsvādana
- yāṅ-sabā lañā dāna kare prema-dhana
- (TEXTS 20–21)
- sei pañca-tattva mili' pṛthivī āsiyā
- pūrva-premabhāṇḍārera mudrā ughāḍiyā
- pāṅce mili' luṭe prema, kare āsvādana
- yata yata piye, tṛṣṇā bāḍhe anukṣaṇa
- (TEXT 22)
- punaḥ punaḥ piyāiyā haya mahāmatta
- nāce, kānde, hāse, gāya, yaiche mada-matta
- (TEXT 23)
- pātrāpātra-vicāra nāhi, nāhi sthānāsthāna
- yei yāṅhā pāya, tāṅhā kare prema-dāna
- (TEXT 24)
- luṭiyā, khāiyā, diyā, bhāṇḍāra ujāḍe
- āścarya bhāṇḍāra, prema śata-guṇa bāḍe
- (TEXT 25)
- uchalila prema-vanyā caudike veḍāya
- strī, vṛddha, bālaka, yuvā, sabāre ḍubāya
- (TEXT 26)
- saj-jana, durjana, paṅgu, jaḍa, andha-gaṇa
- prema-vanyāya ḍubāila jagatera jana
- (TEXT 27)
- jagat ḍubila, jīvera haila bīja nāśa
- tāhā dekhi' pāṅca janera parama ullāsa
- (TEXT 28)
- yata yata prema-vṛṣṭi kare pañca-jane
- tata tata bāḍhe jala, vyāpe tri-bhuvane
- (TEXTS 29–30)
- māyāvādī, karma-niṣṭha kutārkika-gaṇa
- nindaka, pāsaṇḍī yata paḍuyā adhama
- sei saba mahādakṣa dhāñā palāila
- sei vanyā tā-sabāre chuṅite nārila
- (TEXTS 31–32)
- tāhā dekhi' mahāprabhu karena cintana
- jagat ḍubāite āmi kariluṅ yatana
- keha keha eḍāila, pratijñā ha-ila bhaṅga
- tā-sabā ḍubāite pātiba kichu raṅga
- (TEXT 33)
- eta bali' mane kichu kariyā vicāra
- sannyāsa-āśrama prabhu kailā aṅgīkāra
- (TEXT 34)
- cabbiśa vatsara chilā gṛhastha-āśrame
- pañca-viṁśati varṣe kaila yati-dharme
- (TEXT 35)
- sannyāsa kariyā prabhu kailā ākarṣaṇa
- yateka pālāñāchila tārkikādigaṇa
- (TEXT 36)
- paḍuyā, pāṣaṇḍī, karmī, nindakādi yata
- tārā āsi' prabhu-pāya haya avanata
- (TEXT 37)
- aparādha kṣamāila, ḍubila prema-jale
- kebā eḍāibe prabhura prema-mahājāle
- (TEXT 38)
- sabā nistārite prabhu kṛpā-avatāra
- sabā nistārite kare cāturī apāra
- (TEXT 39)
- tabe nija bhakta kaila yata mleccha ādi
- sabe eḍāila mātra kāśīra māyāvādī
Prabhupāda: You know kāśīra māyāvādī?
Professor: Just a little.
- (TEXT 40)
- vṛndāvana yāite prabhu rahilā kāśīte
- māyāvādi-gaṇa tāṅre lāgila nindite
- (TEXT 41)
- sannyāsī ha-iyā kare gāyana, nācana
- nā kare Vedānta-pāṭha, kare saṅkīrtana
- (TEXT 42)
- mūrkha sannyāsī nija-dharma nāhi jāne
- bhāvuka ha-iyā phere bhāvukera sane
- (TEXT 43)
- e saba śuniyā prabhu hāse mane mane
- upekṣā kariyā kāro nā kaila sambhāṣaṇe
- (TEXT 44)
- upekṣā kariyā kaila mathurā gamana
- mathurā dekhiyā punaḥ kaila āgamana
- (TEXT 49)
- itimadhye candraśekhara, miśra-tapana
- duḥkhī hañā prabhu-pāya kaila nivedana
- (TEXT 50)
- kateka śuniba prabhu tomāra nindana
- nā pāri sahite, ebe chāḍiba jīvana
- (TEXT 51)
- tomāre nindaye yata sannyāsīra gaṇa
- śunite nā pāri, phāṭe hṛdaya-śravaṇa
- (TEXT 52)
- ihā śuni rahe prabhu īṣat hāsiyā
- sei kāle eka vipra milila āsiyā
- (TEXT 53)
- āsi' nivedana kare caraṇe dhariyā
- eka vastu māgoṅ, deha prasanna ha-iyā
- (TEXT 54)
- sakala sannyāsī muñi kainu nimantraṇa
- tumi yadi āisa, pūrṇa haya mora mana
- (TEXT 55)
- nā yāha sannyāsi-goṣṭhī, ihā āmi jāni
- more anugraha kara nimantraṇa māni
- (TEXT 56)
- prabhu hāsi' nimantraṇa kaila aṅgīkāra
- sannyāsīre kṛpā lāgi' e bhaṅgī tāṅhāra
- (TEXT 57)
- se vipra jānena prabhu nā yā'na kā'ra ghare
- tāṅhāra preraṇāya tāṅre atyāgraha kare
- (TEXT 58)
- āra dine gelā prabhu se vipra-bhavane
- dekhilena, vasiyāchena sannyāsīra gaṇe
- (TEXT 59)
- sabā namaskari' gelā pāda-prakṣālane
- pāda prakṣālana kari vasilā sei sthāne
You want to hear more?
Professor: No, thank you.
Prabhupāda: So, in this way, we have given Sanskrit, here, the transliteration. Just like
- āra dine gelā prabhu se vipra-bhavane
- dekhilena, vasiyāchena sannyāsīra gaṇe
- (CC Adi 7.58)
Here is the transliteration. Āra, dine, gelā, prabhu, se, vipra, bhavane, dekhilena, vasiyāchena, sannyāsīra, gaṇe.
Professor: Hmm. How many volumes is this one, when it's complete?
Prabhupāda: This is only one chapter.
Prabhupāda: And you know how many chapters there are.
(aside) How many chapters?
Pradyumna: Seventeen in first part, about twenty something in the second part . . .
Professor: Second part.
Pradyumna: Thirty something in third part.
Professor: Yes, about sixty altogether. A little more than sixty.
Prabhupāda: So how many, all . . .? Sixty.
Professor: Sixty, sixty-five . . .
Prabhupāda: So, at least fifty volumes like this.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you introduce in your university?
Prabhupāda: You see?
Professor: Yes, yes. I like myself also to acquire this one.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You see how we have translated. I have given transliteration and word-to-word meaning. You are scholar, you can understand. So we want to introduce this literature in the universities.
Professor: Hmm, hmm, yes . . .
Prabhupāda: Everything, you can see.
Professor: Have you translated also the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Professor: All of it? Or . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, all of it. Nectar of Devotion.
Paramahaṁsa: Do you have, Nectar of Devotion?
Professor: And also this Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi.
Prabhupāda: Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi. No, Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi is not for general study.
Professor: No, it's . . .
Prabhupāda: It is, it is for high, advanced devotee. You have seen our Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: Just down. You can see.
Paramahaṁsa: Dr. Suneson is also a friend of Dr. Berndhart and Dr. Stahl, Professor Stahl in Berkeley.
Professor: Bernhardt, I know, I know . . .
Paramahaṁsa: He knows them. And both of these gentlemen have Śrīla Prabhupāda's literature in their universities, in their libraries.
Professor: Hmm. Hmm.
Prabhupāda: This book is recommended in the Temple University as textbook.
Professor: Hmm-hmm. This one.
Prabhupāda: Nectar of Devotion. This is Caitanya-caritā . . . I mean to say, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Yes. "The summary study of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī's Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu."
Professor: Hmm-hmm? So it's the complete text?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete. You can read from any portion; you'll find so nice description. Anywhere from, you can read. Yes.
Professor: But original text is not given.
Prabhupāda: Then it will be very big volume. Therefore we have given summary study. But if time we get, we shall give the original text also. (break)
Professor: . . . is translating this Ṣaṭ-sandarbha. It is very voluminous.
Prabhupāda: Not yet.
Professor: No, no sense in this . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīva Gosvāmī.
Professor: Yes, also his books are very long.
Prabhupāda: I, I am doing alone.
Professor: Also Gopāla-campū.
Prabhupāda: Gopāla-campū, yes, not yet done.
Professor: No. That's what I have.
Professor: I've read part of that.
Prabhupāda: Oh. I see.
Prabhupāda: Then you have read many of our Vaiṣṇava literature.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice.
Professor: Also in Tamil. I'm partic . . . I'm doing also comparative studies between those in the Sanskrit and Tamil. Do you know Tamil?
Professor: No. They have also a big collection.
Prabhupāda: I don't know anything. (laughter)
Professor: What? What?
Do you have this, the Tenth Canto of the Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Professor: Which? Here. Or . . .?
Pradyumna: That's Kṛṣṇa Book.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa Book. (break)
Professor: . . . take you to translate?
Prabhupāda: I am doing in my Dictaphone daily one tape.
(aside) One tape, about how many pages?
Pradyumna: About ten to twelve pages.
Prabhupāda: And he's editing. After typing, he edits, and then it is gone to the press. In this way, our work is going on.
Professor: Do you have the original here of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Professor: Could I see it? Is it any . . .?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is only Fifth Canto. We have got . . . you can bring that book, black bound.
Pradyumna: Here's others.
Pradyumna: Third Canto also.
Prabhupāda: Oh, here is.
(break) . . . eight commentaries by different ācāryas. So I read all the commentaries and give my own. In this way, we are doing. Yes.
Professor: Where do you have these eight commentaries? Are they found in this edition, or . . .?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vīrarāghava Ācārya, Jīva Gosvāmī, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. Here is the original text, type. It is in Bengali type. (break)
Professor: . . . does this one have?
Professor: How many commentaries does this one . . .?
Prabhupāda: Oh, here, only Śrīdhara Svāmī's. One commentary.
Professor: That's the one I have read, Śrīdhara's.
Professor: Yes, only Śrīdhara's. Because it's difficult to get the other commentaries.
Prabhupāda: No, they are available.
Professor: Yes, I'm trying, but . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: No. Purpose we have not translated, because they are not meant for ordinary reading. They are meant for Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because there is dealings of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, people will misunderstand.
Professor: Yes, but it's very great poems. It's very beautiful, musical.
Professor: But . . .
Prabhupāda: And we, we have translated pralaya-payodhi-jale. That is Daśāvatāra-stotra of Jayadeva Gosvāmī. We have translated Upadeśāmṛta of Rūpa Gosvāmī, which is useful for general public. (break)
Professor: Yes. And, I think he was ill also. He was quite weak.
Paramahaṁsa: When he died, he . . . every year he was going to these trips to visit these Buddhist monasteries.
Prabhupāda: He was a little attached to Buddhism?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, like Śaṅkarācārya, remember, he was . . .
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He was mentioning to you that he thought Śaṅkara's teachings were much more simpler, much more understandable, he said.
Paramahaṁsa: Attractive, he said, than Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. This was his . . .
Prabhupāda: What is your . . . (break)
Professor: I do not find Śaṅkara . . . well, it's too abstract and it's . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, right you are. It is round . . .
Professor: It's a question of . . .
Prabhupāda: . . . about way.
Professor: Yes, of course, it's difficult to practice, of course, for people in general also. But, of course, he has also written hymns.
Prabhupāda: Yes. About Kṛṣṇa.
Professor: And they are . . . yes. And they are, of course, a bit different. So he, Śaṅkara himself, seemed to . . .
Prabhupāda: That is explained in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta, why Śaṅkara prepared . . . presented his Māyāvāda philosophy. It is explained there.
Śrutakīrti: I remember where it was.
Śrutakīrti: I remember where it was . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. (break)
Professor: Do you have classes on Caitanya-caritāmṛta?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Read it.
- tāṅra doṣa nāhi, teṅho ājñā-kārī dāsa
- āra yei śune tāra haya sarva-nāśa
Prabhupāda: . . . haya sarva-nāśa. Read the English translation.
Pradyumna: "Śaṅkarācārya, who is an incarnation of Lord Śiva, is faultless because he is a servant carrying out the orders of the Lord, but those who follow his Māyāvādī philosophy are doomed. They will lose all their advancement in spiritual knowledge."
Prabhupāda: This is the opinion of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Anyone who hears Śaṅkara's comment on Vedānta philosophy, he is doomed.
Professor: (laughs) That's about it.
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "Māyāvādī philosophers are very proud of exhibiting their Vedānta knowledge through grammatical jugglery, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad-gītā certifies that they are māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15), bereft of real knowledge due to māyā. Māyā has two potencies with which to execute her two functions: prakṣepātmikā . . ."
Pradyumna: ". . . śakti, the power to throw the living entity in the ocean of material existence, and āvaraṇātmikā-śakti, the power to cover the knowledge of the living entity. The function of the āvaraṇātmikā-śakti is explained in Bhagavad-gītā by the word māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Why the daivī-māyā, or illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa, takes away the knowledge of the Māyāvādī philosophers is also explained in Bhagavad-gītā by the use of the words āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15), which refer to a person who does not agree to the existence of the Lord."
"The Māyāvādīs, who are not in agreement with the existence of the Lord, can be classed in two groups, exemplified by the impersonalist Śaṅkarites of Vārāṇasī and the Buddhists of Saranātha. Both of them are Māyāvādīs, and Kṛṣṇa takes away their knowledge due to their atheistic philosophies. Neither of them agree to accept the existence of a personal God. The Buddhist philosophers clearly deny . . . clearly deny both the soul and God, and although the Śaṅkarites do not openly deny God, they say that the Absolute is nirākāra, or formless. Thus both of them are aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), or imperfect and unclean in their knowledge and intelligence."
Prabhupāda: What do you think?
Professor: That's . . . of course, in the introduction to Śaṅkara's commentary to Bhagavad-gītā, he does, it seems, if it is for him, which is that . . .
Prabhupāda: He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality.
Professor: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, yes.
Professor: So Śaṅkara is a bit difficult, because his followers, even he's Māyāvādī, the followers, his followers, they clearly believe in it. But whether, what Śaṅkara himself meant by it . . .
Prabhupāda: No, that is explained. Śaṅkara is the incarnation of Lord Śiva. He has no fault. He has simply executed the order of the Supreme Lord. But the way in which he has presented the commentary, one should not hear it. That is his warning. Here is the Tenth Canto of Bhāgavatam, two volumes.
Professor: That's also, "Not for sale in India." Why?
Prabhupāda: Because . . .
Professor: Why not in India?
Prabhupāda: India, we make members. We get more price. Because we are, our scheme, Life Member, they pay eleven hundred rupees, and whatever books we can supply, we supply. That's all. That is not even to the amount they pay. So we give our presentation and they contribute. This is the program.
Professor: Do you use any grammar, Sanskrit grammar, when you study Sanskrit?
Prabhupāda: Sanskrit grammar?
Professor: Yes. How do they learn when they learn Sanskrit here?
Prabhupāda: We have given some hints.
Professor: Or learn from a text or . . .?
Prabhupāda: We have given some hints. In the last . . . you can show him, in the Bhagavad-gītā. Or Īśopaniṣad. The mode, how to read.
Professor: No, Sanskrit is quite difficult . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, there . . .
Professor: Many forms and so forth.
Prabhupāda: Now, these boys, they did not know Sanskrit. By, by following the direction, they read very nicely these diacritic marks.
Professor: (looking at book) Yes. Oh, this is good.
Pradyumna: . . . (indistinct)
Professor: But they don't learn how to inflect forms and so on . . .
Prabhupāda: Simply they have to learn the alphabet.
Professor: Alphabet, but not, I mean . . .
Prabhupāda: They write the mark . . .
Professor: Devaḥ, devam, devena, devāya, and so on.
Prabhupāda: He has given the direction. This is made by him, how to pronounce. And then, by practice, it comes.
Professor: Are you going to have any kīrtana also tonight?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? You want to hear?
Professor: Yes, very much.
Prabhupāda: Well, all right. Begin.
Pradyumna: With the mṛdaṅga?
Prabhupāda: So you are a bhakta. You are a devotee.
Professor: Well . . . I'm sorry . . .
Prabhupāda: Now it appears. Very good.
Professor: Well . . . but . . .
Prabhupāda: So we have got a . . .
Professor: . . . well I'm studying it and, well, I'm attracted by many things.
Prabhupāda: No, studying, there are many scholars, they are studying, but you are factually bhakta. How you wanted to hear kīrtana? That is the sign of bhakta. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). Tan manye 'dhītam uttamam (SB 7.5.24). Uttamam. He has, he has studied really.
Professor: In India, where is your center? Do you have any headquarters or something like that . . .?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got center in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in Navadvīpa. I was, after my retirement from family, I was staying at Vṛndāvana, from 1956. Then in 1965 I came to America. So . . . where is Haṁsadūta?
Paramahaṁsa: He's leading kīrtana downstairs, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Then? You can, you can lead. Or anyone can lead.
So you like this kīrtana?
Professor: It's very unusual in Sweden.
Prabhupāda: So you are, you are a devotee. Kindly cooperate with us, and overflood Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are educated. Your word will be accepted more than ours.
Professor: Yeah. How does one order these books?
Devotee: We have them here, or . . .
Paramahaṁsa: We just received shipment from Germany.
Professor: You stock them here?
Prabhupāda: Yes, all the books are there.
Professor: (indistinct) . . . you have spoken to him?
Paramahaṁsa: I have spoken to him on the phone. He's on a trip, I think.
Professor: Yes, to New York, I think.
Prabhupāda: So what is your full name?
Professor: Karl Suneson. It's quite difficult.
Prabhupāda: Karl Simhasan.
Prabhupāda: You are this . . .?
Professor: Swedish, yes.
Prabhupāda: So he can attend our meeting. He can introduce. That will be nice.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. We're having a meeting, as you know, tomorrow night at the Stockholm University.
Professor: Yes, I'll probably be coming, yes.
Paramahaṁsa: If you would, would you be kind enough, perhaps, to give an introductory lecture or, you know, to . . .
Professor: Well . . .
Paramahaṁsa: . . . say, praise, or your appreciation of our movement or Śrīla Prabhupāda's teachings in front of the audience.
Professor: I, I, I don't know exactly. I hope I can come, but I can't say for sure.
Paramahaṁsa: I understand. I understand. Well, you're kindly invited. That goes without saying.
Professor: Yes, yes, I'll try to come. That will be at the University.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, tomorrow evening at seven-thirty.
Professor: No, I'll try to come. Do you think, this one, do you think I could . . .?
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also available.
Professor: . . . have for myself, or . . .?
Paramahaṁsa: Unfortunately, I think we have to order these.
Śrutakīrti: I don't think they have it here yet in your . . .
Prabhupāda: We are getting the consignment. Now we have got only one copy.
Professor: This is the only copy you have?
Paramahaṁsa: We'll place an order.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you want to read overnight, then you can take. You can return tomorrow.
Professor: Of course, if I don't come . . .
Paramahaṁsa: Hmm? No, I can return. I can.
Professor: That's all right. I can wait. But then I get a copy of . . . that will be alright.
Prabhupāda: So give him some prasādam.
Śrutakīrti: Someone went out to get it. (break)
Professor: . . . kīrtanas?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Bengali?
Professor: Yes. Yes. Do you sing any hymns, kīrtanas, in Bengali also?
Haṁsadūta: Do we sing in Bengali?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Professor: Or mostly, mostly in Sanskrit?
Prabhupāda: No, in Bengali some also.
- hari hari bifale janama goṅāinu
- manuṣya-janama pāiyā
- rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā,
- jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu
- (Iṣṭa-deve Vijñapti 1)
(aside) You have got harmonium here?
Professor: I'm not . . . (indistinct) . . . tire you.
Prabhupāda: Give me water.
(Prabhupāda plays harmonium and sings Hari hari bifale)
You can replay this.
Professor: Who has written this kīrtana?
Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura.
- narottama-dāsa koy
- nā ṭheliho rāṅgā pāy
- tomā bine ke āche āmāra
Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's singing, hari hari bifale janama goṅāinu: "My dear Lord, I have simply wasted my time, bifale, without any profit. Because I got this human form of life, but I missed the opportunity for worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa." Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā." And by doing this, I have taken poison knowingly." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Then, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana: "This nāma-saṅkīrtana is not any material thing. It is the ecstatic love of Kṛṣṇa in the Goloka Vṛndāvana."
- golokera prema-dhana
- rati nā janmilo kene tāy
"But I have no attachment for this hari-kīrtana." Biṣaya-biṣānale, dibā-niśi hiyā jwale: "My heart is always burning in material existence," tore bāro na koinu, "but I did not make any means by which I can get out of it." Brajendra-nandana jei, śacī-suta hoilo sei: "Formerly, the same Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, who was, who appeared as the son of Nanda Mahārāja, He has again appeared as the son of Śacīdevī." And balarāma hoilo nitāi, "And Balarāma has appeared as Nityānanda Prabhu."
So their business is, papī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo: all sorts of sinful men, and materially suffering men, all of them have been delivered by these two brothers, Gaura-Nitāi, by preaching the saṅkīrtana movement. Tāra śākṣī jagāi and mādhāi: "They have delivered all kinds of sinful men.
The evidence is Jagāi and Mādhāi." Hā hā prabhu nanda-suta, vṛṣabhānu-sutā-juta: "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, the son of Nanda Mahārāja, You are now standing with Rādhārāṇī, the daughter of King Vṛṣabhānu. So it is my appeal," koruṇā karoho ei-bāro, "kindly be kind upon me." Narottama-dāsa koy: "Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, 'Don't kick me out. I have no other shelter. Please take me.' " This is the . . .
- narottama-dāsa koy
- nā ṭheliho rāṅgā pāy
- tomā bine ke āche āmāra
"I have no other shelter. Don't kick me." There are many very appealing songs in Vaiṣṇava literature.
Professor: How old is this one?
Prabhupāda: Eh? It is about two hundred fifty years ago it was written. There are many songs of Narottama Ṭhākura.
- gaurāṅga bolite habe pulaka-śarīra
- hari hari bolite nayane ba'be nīra
- āra kabe nitāi-cānder koruṇā hoibe
- saṁsāra-bāsanā mora kabe tuccha ha'be
- viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana
- kabe hāma herabo śrī-bṛndābana
- rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti
- kabe hāma bujhabo se jugala-pīriti
- (Lālasāmayī Prārthanā)
There are so many songs.
- gaurāṅgera duṭi pada
- jār dhana sampada
- se jāne bhakati-rasa-sār
Many songs. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's songs, then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs. Locana dāsa, Locana dāsa's songs.
- parama koruṇa
- pahuṅ dui jana
- nitāi gauracandra
- saba avatāra-sāra śiromaṇi,
- kevala ānanda-kanda
- bhajo bhajo bhāi
- caitanya nitāi
- sudṛḍha biśwāsa kori
- biṣaya chāḍiyā
- se rase majiyā
- mukhe bolo hari hari
- (Śrī Śrī Gaura-Nityānander Dayā)
In this way, there are so many songs. Very simple Bengali. Especially Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs, they have been approved by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura as Vedic evidences. Although it is written in Bengali, they are full of Vedic authority.
- anya devāśraya nāi
- tomāre kahinu bhāi
- ei bhakti parama karaṇa
What is that? Eh? Oh, Śaraṇāgati.
Pradyumna: All. The Mahājana-gīti, by Narottama dāsa.
Prabhupāda: Oh. There are so many songs. So you have devotional tendency. Develop it. Make your life successful. That is my humble suggestion. Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā bi . . . anyone who has got this human form of life, he does not engage himself in developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he's drinking poison knowingly. Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Biṣa means poison. A great opportunity, this human life. That is our mission, that this modern civilization, they have created such entanglement that people are rotting, and they are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Only on the basis of this bodily concept of life.
- yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
So by order of our superiors, we are trying to introduce. But we are very unhappy seeing these people. They are spoiling their life in the bodily concept of life. He does not know what is going to happen next life. But there is a next life. That's a fact. As we had past life as child, as boy, as young man, similarly, we have past life also. This simple truth they cannot understand. Or there is no attempt in the educational field.
Professor: Are you working all . . .? In what countries in Europe?
Professor: In what countries in Europe are you working in, besides Scandinavia?
Haṁsadūta: In Germany, France and England, Holland. Everywhere, in all countries.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Of course, this . . .
Professor: But East, Eastern Europe's impossible, eh?
Haṁsadūta: Yes, as a matter of fact, we, we have a devotee in East Berlin. But, of course, it's very difficult because the government doesn't allow it. But we just . . . he keeps a shaved head, and he's chanting. He's reading our books.
Professor: But nobody has interfered with him?
Haṁsadūta: Well, nobody knows.
Haṁsadūta: I was just telling him about this devotee we have in East Berlin. We have a devotee in East Berlin who's chanting and keeps a shaved head.
Paramahaṁsa: Do you know Professor Kotovsky?
Professor: Kotovsky? No.
Paramahaṁsa: In Moscow. He's a Sanskrit . . . head of the Oriental Studies.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He's, uh . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda also met him one time in Moscow.
Haṁsadūta: But he's not a devotee.
Professor: No, but that's . . .
Prabhupāda: Now, I, when we were talking, I asked him one question that, "Professor Kotovsky, you are Communist, I am Kṛṣṇite. So where is the difference of philosophy? Because you have to accept one authority, leader. So you have accepted Lenin as leader; we have accepted Kṛṣṇa as leader. So where is the difference on the principle?"
So he could not answer. But he very much appreciated this, that "Where is the difference between these two principle?" But now we have to consider whether the leadership of Lenin is good or the leadership of Kṛṣṇa is good. That is another thing. But you have to accept one leader. You cannot do without leader. That is not possible.
Professor: Well, well, to some extent it's possible.
Prabhupāda: No, every extent. Anyone, anyone calling . . . so many philosophy or "ism," he has got leader. That you cannot avoid. The Buddhists, they are following Lord Buddha. Christian, they are following Lord Jesus Christ. Muhammadan, they are following Muhammad. Similarly the Communists, they are following Lenin, or Max. What is?
Paramahaṁsa: Karl Marx.
Prabhupāda: Karl Marx.
Professor: But, of course, in Sweden, most people, they don't . . . they don't follow anybody. So it's . . . I mean . . .
Prabhupāda: No, they follow. At least, one follows himself. Is it not? "Don't follow anyone" means he follows himself. He has got a particular philosophy, and he's the leader.
Professor: Well, naturally, everybody has some kind of ideas, I mean, how to lead his life.
Prabhupāda: But that will not help us.
Professor: But, uh . . .
Prabhupāda: Unless we accept the real leader, a perfect personality who can give us perfect knowledge, there is no success. That is our philosophy.
- tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet
- samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham
- (MU 1.2.12)
- tad viddhi praṇipātena
- paripraśnena sevayā
- upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
- jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
- (BG 4.34)
We have to approach a person who has seen the truth in reality. Then our life is success. That is the Vedic injunction. And that is fact. Unless we are . . . just like you are teacher, a professor. So therefore people are coming to you to learn. How can you say that he can follow his own philosophy? He's coming to school, college. He's taking lesson from the teacher. One has to follow. The selection may be right or wrong; that is another thing. But one has to select.
Professor: Well, one has to acquire knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Therefore, if we have to acquire knowledge, we must go to a person who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned. There are four defects in the conditioned soul: to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of senses. One may declare himself that he's perfect in knowledge, but his senses are imperfect. So how he can call himself that he has got the perfect knowledge by speculative method?
Prabhupāda: The instrument which he is using for speculation, that instrument itself is imperfect.
Professor: Well, normally our knowledge will be imperfect in some way or . . .
Professor: Normally our knowledge is imperfect in one way or another.
Prabhupāda: How it is perfect?
Professor: Im . . .
Professor: That is . . .
Prabhupāda: So imperfect knowledge, one who has got imperfect knowledge, how he can give lesson perfect?
Professor: No, but you can still give something, even if you . . .
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right, you get something, but that is not perfect.
Professor: No. But of course, there are different kinds of knowledge and . . .
Prabhupāda: No, our principle is to get perfect knowledge from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's above these defects. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni ca . . . (BG 7.26).
(aside) Find out this verse.
Prabhupāda: First of all you find out that verse, bahūni me janmāni vyatītāni tava cārjuna.
- śrī bhagavān uvāca
- bahūni me vyatītāni
- janmāni tava cārjuna
- tāny ahaṁ veda sarvāṇi
- na tvaṁ vettha parantapa
- (BG 4.5)
"The Blessed Lord said: 'Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!' "
Pradyumna: "In the Brahma-saṁhitā we have information of many, many incarnations of the Lord. It is stated there:
- advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam
- ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca
- vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
- (Bs. 5.33)
'I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Govinda, or Kṛṣṇa, who is the original person, absolute, infallible, without beginning . . .' "
Prabhupāda: Infallible. Infallible. This word is used. Acyuta. Hmm.
Pradyumna: " '. . . without beginning, although expanded into unlimited forms, still, the same original, the oldest and the person always appearing as a fresh youth. Such eternal, blissful, all-knowing forms of the Lord are usually understood by the best Vedic scholars, but they are always manifest to pure, unalloyed devotees.' "
"It is also stated in Brahma-saṁhitā:
- rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan
- nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu
- kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi"
- (Bs 5.39)
" 'I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda (Kṛṣṇa), who is always situated in various incarnations such as Rāma, Nṛsiṁha and many subincarnations as well, but who is the original Personality of Godhead known as Kṛṣṇa, and who incarnates personally also.' "
"In the Vedas also it is said that the Lord, although one without a second, never the less manifests Himself in innumerable forms. He is like the vaidūrya stone, which changes color yet still remains one. All those multiforms are understood by the pure, unalloyed devotees, but not by a simple study of the Vedas (vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau). Devotees like Arjuna are constant companions of the Lord, and whenever the Lord incarnates, the associate devotees also incarnate in order to serve the Lord in different capacities."
"Arjuna is one of these devotees, and in this verse it is understood that some millions of years ago when Lord Kṛṣṇa spoke the Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god Vivasvān, Arjuna, in a different capacity, was also present. But the difference between the Lord and Arjuna is that the Lord remembered the incident whereas Arjuna could not remember. That is the difference between the part-and-parcel living entity and the Supreme Lord. Although Arjuna is addressed herein as the mighty hero who could subdue the enemies, he is unable to recall what had happened in his various past births."
"Therefore, a living entity, however great he may be in the material estimation, can never equal the Supreme Lord. Anyone who is a constant companion of the Lord is certainly a liberated person, but he cannot be equal to the Lord. The Lord is described in the Brahma-saṁhitā as infallible (acyuta), which means that He never forgets Himself, even though He is in material contact. Therefore, the Lord and the living entity can never be equal in all respects, even if the living entity is as liberated as Arjuna. Although Arjuna is a devotee of the Lord, he sometimes forgets the nature of the Lord, but by the divine grace a devotee can at once understand the infallible condition of the Lord, whereas a nondevotee or a demon cannot understand this transcendental nature. Consequently these descriptions in the Gītā cannot be understood by demoniac brains."
"Kṛṣṇa remembered acts which were performed by Him millions of years before, but Arjuna could not, despite the fact that both Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna are eternal in nature. We may also note herein that a living entity forgets everything due to his change of body, but the Lord remembers because He does not change His sac-cid-ānanda body. He is advaita, which means there is no distinction between His body and Himself. Everything in relation to Him is spirit—whereas the conditioned soul is different from his material body. And because the Lord's body and self are identical, His position is always different from the ordinary living entity, even when He descends to the material platform. The demons cannot adjust themselves to this transcendental nature of the Lord, as the Lord Himself explains in the following verse."
Then the next verse.
Pradyumna: Then the next verse.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
- ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā
- bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san
- prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya
- sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā
- (BG 4.6)
Prabhupāda: That's all. So this Bhagavad-gītā, at least, should be introduced in all colleges. And Professor Dimock has recommended. Just . . .
Professor: Well, it is quite widely read, the Bhagavad-gītā.
Professor: The Bhagavad-gītā is quite widely read.
Pradyumna: This is an introduction by Professor Dimock.
Professor: Yes, I've seen it. I read it. But it is quite widely read, you know. I mean the translations . . .
Prabhupāda: But one thing is that other Bhagavad-gītās, they have interpreted in their own pleasure, not as it is. That is the difference. Just like you, you must have read Bhagavad-gītā by Radhakrishnan.
Prabhupāda: When the verse, the verse, where it is? In Ninth Chapter: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Kṛṣṇa says: "Just think of Me, become My devotee, and worship Me, offer Me respect, obeisances." Radhakrishnan comments, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Have you seen it?
Professor: Yes, sir. Radhakrishnan's, yes.
Prabhupāda: Now he says . . . he misinterprets that, "This is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see.
Professor: No, but Radhakrishnan, his . . . he has wide knowledge also, but his interpretations . . .
Prabhupāda: This is his knowledge.
Professor: But his interpretations are . . .
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Why he should interpret in that way? Kṛṣṇa personally says that, "You become My devotee." And he says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa the person." Why? He has no right to say like that. This way, these people mislead. If he is commenting on Bhagavad-gītā, he must present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Why he gives his own opinion? If I say: "Give me a glass of water," how you can say, "No, it is not to him"? How you can say? Is that very good thing? That Radhakrishnan has done. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa person." Just see. Do you think he has got the right to do so?
Professor: No, but I don't think Radhakrishnan's commentaries are . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Just see. It is there.
Professor: They are very incorrect often, and, uh . . .
Prabhupāda: He has done this. You can see from . . .
Professor: Yes, but there's a translation by Franklin Edgarton of the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Translation is all right, but his commentation is wrong. Translation is all right. I know. That's very nice. It is done by some Englishman. Eh?
Professor: Well, that's one. Yes. And also there is Edgarton. He was an American Sanskrit scholar.
Prabhupāda: No, translation is, there is, good translation. But he comments like that. Just like Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was asked that, "You are hearing; You do not speak anything," He said: "Yes, I am understanding the original verse of the Vedānta very clearly, but you are trying to cover the meaning. Therefore I am puzzled." This is the business of the Māyāvādīs. They'll simply puzzle. That's all.
Professor: Who? The Māyā . . .?
Professor: Māyāvādī, hmm.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You also told me that it is very difficult to understand the jugglery way of presentation.
Professor: Well, I think it's time for me to leave.
Prabhupāda: All right, thank you.
Professor: I have a long way home.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Give him this garland. Hmm. Jaya. (end)