730709 - Conversation A - London

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



730709R1-LONDON - July 09, 1973 - 120:38 Minutes



(Conversation with David Wynne, Sculptor)

Prabhupāda: ...recently I heard that the people in the airport protested against Indira Gandhi, that "Give us rain." Yes. That is Vedic civilization, ideal. Why there is rain then no rain? The king should be responsible. One brāhmaṇa lost his son. He immediately went to the king and asked him that "The son has died before the death of the father. Why this irregularity? You are responsible." You see?

The ideal is that king is representative of God. Because we are all sons of God. We have come here in this material world for our proper guidance. The king is responsible, the spiritual master is responsible, the father is responsible, the elderly persons are responsible. Because you told me that we have to work for other. That other is Kṛṣṇa. If we utilize our intelligence for serving Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of the king or the spiritual master or the father, then the society is perfect. That is ideal civilization. What is your opinion about this? How do you think this ideal...

David Wynne: I think it's... I... I... I wonder when it will come. Will it come on this level or what...?

Prabhupāda: Immediately, provided you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

David Wynne: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Immediately. It is not the question of when. Just like here is light. It doesn't depend there is darkness. You can remain in that darkness and immediately come to the light, and from the light immediately go to the darkness. So this darkness and light, they are existing, co-existing. It is my choice whether to remain in the darkness or in the light. It is my choice. As soon as you are in the darkness, there is no light. As soon as you are in light, there is no darkness. It is your choice.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is light. And anything else, that is māyā. So we can accept either māyā or Kṛṣṇa. If you take to māyā, then we've spoiled our energy and time. If you take to Kṛṣṇa, you utilize your energy and time. Everything is there, ready. You haven't got to create. Everything is there. Just like night is there and day is there. You can keep yourself always in day. Do you know how to do it?

David Wynne: Keep going round, I suppose. (devotees laugh)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nowadays it is not difficult, because...

Devotee (1): Airplane. Go west.

Prabhupāda: Just like I started from India at eleven o'clock, and I came here at half past eight, the sunlight was still there. So if you proceed still further, further towards western side, the night will not be able to come. So you can travel always in daylight. (laughs) You wont allow. It is an example.

David Wynne: Why do we choose the dark?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

David Wynne: Why do we all choose the dark? Why are we all in the dark, most of us?

Prabhupāda: Dark means without Kṛṣṇa consciousness—darkness.

Śyāmasundara: He asked why do we usually choose the darkness.

David Wynne: Most people.

Prabhupāda: Due to bad association.

David Wynne: To...?

Prabhupāda: Bad association.

David Wynne: Ah.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, our Society is association. If we keep good association, then we don't touch the darkness. What is the association? There is a song, sat-saṅga chāḍi' kainu asate vilāsa, te-kāraṇe lāgila mora karma-bandha-phāṅsa (Gaurā Pahū verse 3). Sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga means association with the devotees. That is called sat-saṅga. So the one poet, Vaiṣṇava poet, is regretting that "I did not keep association with the devotees, and I wanted to enjoy life with the nondevotees. Therefore I'm being entangled in the fruitive activities." Karma bandha phāṅsa. Entanglement.

Here in this material world we act, and the result is there. Again we enjoy the result and act, again another result. We act, another result, another... Because as soon as you act, there will be some result, good or bad. So, good or bad, by good result we get good birth, good money, good bodily feature, good education—these are the effects of good work.

And the effects of bad work: low-grade family, abominable, ugly bodily features, no education, no money, poor—these are the two effects of material good and bad work. But those who are trying to be transcendental both to the good and bad work, devotees, they are perfect. Because in this material world either you do good work or bad work, you have to suffer the material conditions. Just like you are..., suppose you are Englishman, you are well situated. But you can not avoid the influence of the weather. (laughs)

David Wynne: No.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is not possible. Either you become rich man or poor man, you have to undergo.

(aside:) Get the light. There is switch, yes.

So our position is that we are in this material world. George has sung that "I am in the material world." Yes, very sensible song. (laughs) He's good boy, realizing. Yes. So this material life is not good. Material life is not good in this sense, because you have to change your body: sometimes good birth, sometimes not good birth; sometimes Englishman, sometimes cats, dogs. Possibility. Because after death you'll get a body that will be chosen not by you but by the material nature. You'll create your body by your present activities, and nature will simply award you that body.

So, so long we have got this material body, the four kinds of miserable condition—repetition of birth, death, old age and disease—you have to suffer. Therefore, this human life should be utilized in such a way that we do not become subject to these four tribulations, birth, death, old age and disease. That is perfection.

But people are not given that chance, the modern education, modern civilization. They've no knowledge. They do not know that there is life after death, although it is a simple fact. Just like in our present existence we have got past, present and future. Just like you are young man, you have your past. You are a child, or a boy, now that is past. Present, you are young man, and in future you are expecting to become old man.

So as you have got past, present and future, similarly, I'm old man, I had my past life, why not future? What is the reason to deny it? Past, present, future, that is the time calculation. I had my past, I have now present, and what is my future? They do not care for the future. They're so blind. There must be future. So what I'm doing for the future? Just like in this life we collect some money, keep in the bank balance so that in future, old age, I may not be in difficulty. Similarly, what a human being should do for his future life? That he does not know, although past, present, future is there.

So this is foolishness. He doesn't care for the future. So one who is foolish, without any knowledge of the future, whatever he's doing he is defeated—in ignorance, because it is ignorance. Just like a boy does not take education, does not think of future, that is not very good. We must be prepared for the future. Future means next life. Yes. Where is that civilization? Where is that education, that people are thinking for future life? Is there any educational system at the present moment?

So everything is being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Abodha-jāta, these rascal fools, born foolish. He does not inquire about the self-realization, so whatever he is doing, it is all defeat, he is spoiling his time, because he does not know. Ātma-tattvam: the science of self-realization. So in ignorance, whatever you do there is defeat. And they're being defeated, and they're thinking, "I am victorious." This is called māyā. This is called māyā.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. We are trying to save the living entity from disastrous condition. This is the aim and mission of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a religious sentiment. No. It is very scientific. And we have got so many books already printed, and many books coming. Each and every one. You have seen our books?

David Wynne: I have seen the one that Sam gave me.

Śyāmasundara: Bhagavad-gītā he has seen.

Prabhupāda: If you read carefully, each and all carries volumes of meaning.

David Wynne: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He's got the Bhagavad-gītā that the Queen was reading.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Śyāmasundara: She was looking at.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā, our Bhagavad-gītā?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Queen Elizabeth was looking, and she gave...

Prabhupāda: Yes, as far as possible you should help everyone how to be..., how to become enlightened about his future. That is real humanitarian work—to save a human being from the future disastrous condition of life. Just like a father thinks of his son, that he may not be unhappy in his future life. So it is the duty of the king, it is the duty of the father, it is the duty of the spiritual master to see that his subordinate is not fallen a victim of future disastrous life.

Śyāmasundara: Didn't the Queen make some remarks about that? She said something to you...

David Wynne: Yes, she said, "How marvelous it would be to completely trust Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: That's very nice.

David Wynne: She said, er, "What a relief to be able to pass all responsibility to Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that one has to learn, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. The sentiment is very nice. It is just fitting from the royal... Because she's after all favored. She has taken birth in the royal family, so she is not ordinary woman. And her intelligence must be extraordinary. So she has remarked like that. What is that exact word?

David Wynne: I think the exact word... She said, "How marvelous to be able to give all responsibility to Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is ready.

David Wynne: Yes. And she said it with a beautiful smile.

Prabhupāda: But the thing is, from our side Kṛṣṇa expects something.

David Wynne: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not a dead stone.

David Wynne: No.

Prabhupāda: Reciprocal. If you fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa takes full responsibility. If you keep some reservation, Kṛṣṇa also keeps reservation.

David Wynne: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: This is it. When Kṛṣṇa understands that you have fully surrendered, He takes full responsibility. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi...
(BG 18.66)

Kṛṣṇa is always ready to take responsibility, provided we give. If we think that "Let me do in my own way, and Kṛṣṇa be responsible for my fault..." (laughs) No. That is not. Reciprocal. Responsive cooperation. Kṛṣṇa is always ready to cooperate.

So by the grace of Kṛṣṇa you have got some position. Try to understand this great science, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and spread it whenever it is possible. Wherever it is possible. That will make your life sublime. Yes. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, an expansion. "Whomever you meet, you just give him the advice Kṛṣṇa has given." Kṛṣṇa has given all instruction, advice, in the Bhagavad-gītā. So you simply repeat, your life is perfect. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Let us say, "You just surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy." What is the difficulty? If I..., you fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and simply ask people that "You also surrender to Kṛṣṇa," where is the difficulty?

Śyāmasundara: Sometimes people ask, "If I surrender to God, give everything to God, then how will the state go on, how will the work, the factories, how would all of that go on?"

Prabhupāda: That, Kṛṣṇa is taking responsibility. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He takes responsibility. Then otherwise, what is the use of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa? He takes responsibility.

Śyāmasundara: (laughs) It can't go wrong, then.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Actually Kṛṣṇa is doing everything. We are thinking, "I am doing it." We are doing nothing. Just like he has become a famous sculptor. Why you could not? Why? What is the reason? Kṛṣṇa has helped him. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ (BG 15.15): "I am sitting in everyone's heart." When he works, Kṛṣṇa says, "Do like this; it will be perfect like this." So Kṛṣṇa is guiding. So everyone is being guided by Kṛṣṇa, even in this condition of life. And when he fully surrendered, how much guidance will come, just imagine? Even without surrender he's guiding. Without His guidance he can not do it.

David Wynne: That's true.

Prabhupāda: You cannot do it. Cannot do anything. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Kṛṣṇa is guiding everyone, even an ant. Kṛṣṇa is giving information, "Mr. Ant, there is a grain of sugar; you can go there." Immediately he goes. Otherwise, how he gets the information? For him, hundred miles away, a grain of sugar, and he goes there. You did not inform. Who informs him? Who informs him?

David Wynne: You feel this very much when one's trying to make sculpture, because it is impossible for a man; one can't do it...

Prabhupāda: No.

David Wynne: ...one has to wait and be passive, and that's all...

Prabhupāda: If Kṛṣṇa withdraws the intelligence, you cannot work. So Kṛṣṇa is guiding already, but He's guiding at the present moment according to your whims.

Śyāmasundara: Ah.

Prabhupāda: "You wanted to do this? All right." Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence: "Do it." But when he'll agree to act according to the whims of Kṛṣṇa, that is perfection.

David Wynne: How do you agree to this?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

David Wynne: How does one agree to this?

Prabhupāda: There is process.

David Wynne: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to learn it. And in conditioned state we act according to my whims. And in liberated state we act according to Kṛṣṇa's whims. That's all. That is the difference. That is the difference. Just see, Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna wanted to act according to his whims, "Oh, He is going now, going to fight with my grandfather, with my teacher." This was the problem. "Kṛṣṇa, no, I cannot fight." And then at last he agreed to act according to the whims of Kṛṣṇa: "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava." Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā (BG 18.73).

(aside:) Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ.

Whatever we are speaking, there is reference in the Bhagavad-gītā. We don't speak anything according to our whims. No.

Śrutakīrti:

naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā
tvat-prasādān mayācyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ
kariṣye vacanaṁ tava
(BG 18.73)

"Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions."

Prabhupāda: There it is. "I am prepared now to act according to Your whims." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When he was trying to act according to his whim, the necessity of instruction of Bhagavad-gītā was there. And when he heard Bhagavad-gītā, he's changed. "Now this is..., all doubts are gone. Yes, I will act according to Your..." This is (indistinct)... Very important verse. Changing. Changing the whole picture. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Same Arjuna, same fighting, same battlefield, everything same, but still everything is changed. The consciousness is changed. Externally nothing changed; internally changed. This change is equal for perfection.

Śyāmasundara: So one doesn't have to give up his...

Prabhupāda: No. Arjuna was a soldier, he was a fighter. The battlefield was there, the war was there, everything is there. He did not... He took to Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean he gave up the field and went away. He remained there, but simply the consciousness was changed. He was not willing to fight on his own account. He changed his opinion, "Yes, now I shall fight. By Your grace, my all doubts are now gone." This is required. This is perfection. And just the picture how Kṛṣṇa is guiding Arjuna, when the ranks are formed.

Devotees and David Wynne: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Lord said: "Just here. Just here." How nice picture.

Śyāmasundara: This picture is in George's album. You've seen it?

David Wynne: Yeah, yeah, I have. When I was young, my mother died. I was very unhappy, and I read the bit where Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "That which is real always exists, and that which isn't real never existed at all," and then I stopped being unhappy. Because this book is..., it tells you everything, and...

Prabhupāda: This Bhagavad-gītā As It Is should be very widely spread and thoroughly read by the civilized man.

David Wynne: But it's read in this country by the intelligent people, but as literature. They don't think it applies to themselves.

Prabhupāda: It applies to everyone. What is that? Here is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna says, "Yes. Whatever You say, I will do. My all doubts are finished(?)." What Kṛṣṇa wants, we can act according to Him. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: But not everyone has the benefit of the personal instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then how does he know what...

Prabhupāda: His representative is there, the spiritual master. If you are not in direct contact with Kṛṣṇa, but you are in direct contact with His representative. What is the difficulty? Just like in a big office or in the government, is everyone in direct contact with the Queen? But there are different departments.

(break) ...has no realization. So Kṛṣṇa is helping from without, from within. Within, He is as Supersoul, and without, as spiritual master. So He is ready to help you, both ways.

Utilize His mercy. Then your life is perfect. He is ready to help you, from within and from without. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. The kindness, the mercifulness of Kṛṣṇa, nobody can repay. In every birth, He is with me, canvassing: "Why you are acting whimsically? Just turn towards Me." Therefore He's going along with the living entity in every kind of body—either as demigod's body or a hog's body, still, Kṛṣṇa is there. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ (BG 15.15).

(pause)

Give him some prasāda.

Śyāmasundara: They said it would be coming any moment.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: They're bringing some prasāda.

Prabhupāda: Is there any other paper? No. It is a very impressive picture.

(looking at picture taken at Ratha-yātrā in Trafalgar Square)

David Wynne: It's wonderful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have given, "A Rival for Nelson." So this movement is a rival... Days were there in British Empire that Nelson was a hero. Now Kṛṣṇa is going to be hero in this country. (laughter) It is a good admission, "A Rival for Nelson." Actually, it should be.

Śyāmasundara: Now no one even remembers Nelson.

Revatīnandana: I have.

Śyāmasundara: I never heard of him.

Prabhupāda: Lord Nelson, he fought the Spanish battle, I think.

David Wynne: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: He died, but became victorious. Yes. I think during Queen, last Elizabeth's time, or something...?

David Wynne: Yes. His last words: "England expects that every man this day will do his duty," and all that. He was a hero because he died young, I think.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. I do not know. But Nelson, Lord Nelson, was famous man, soldier.

Śyāmasundara: Now the pigeons are sitting on his head.

David Wynne: I have just come from Morocco. I've been with the King of Morocco, who is... It's very strange, because he is an absolute ruler, and when an ordinary man is an absolute ruler, it's rather dangerous.

Prabhupāda: No. If the man is really Kṛṣṇa's representative, then it is all right.

David Wynne: Yeah.

Śyāmasundara: Is he a pious man?

David Wynne: Yes, he prays five times a day. He's a Muslim.

Prabhupāda: That king should be a representative of God. That is ideal king. But if he thinks that "This kingdom is my property, and let me enjoy for my sense enjoyment," then it is all gone. If he thinks himself as representative of God... Just like we think. Therefore we are after our disciple: "Do this, do that, do that, do that." We want to see that my disciples also become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, it is the king's duty to see that every citizen becomes God conscious. Then he is representative of God. That is the first duty.

The division must be there, and the..., it is the duty of the king to see that everyone is discharging according to his responsibility. That is king's duty. A brāhmaṇa is acting exactly like brāhmaṇa. The kṣatriya is acting exactly like a kṣatriya. A vaiśya is... Like that. It is the duty of a king to see that nobody's unemployed; everyone is engaged in his own occupational duty. That is the... And they must feel security of life, property, anxiety. That is perfect king.

Here, at the present moment, nobody is confident whether he'll live after an hour or... You see? Anyone can take your property and life, at any moment. There is no protection. There is no protection. And so far anxiety, there is no length and breadth. People are always full of anxiety. Unemployment. These things should not be there. No unemployment, no anxiety, no feelings of insecurity. And that is good government. Nowadays there are police force. But what is the use of this police force? You go on the street, somebody stabs you, what police can do? If somebody takes away your money from your personal pocket, what the police can do? They'll take some note.

Śyāmasundara: That's right. If... One boy who stole from us, I told the police. We told them exactly where he was, at the airport, Manchester. "He's going on flight such and such to America tomorrow." Plenty of time to apprehend him. They didn't do anything.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Śyāmasundara: They came... Oh, they sent one inspector to take notes.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Many notes.

Prabhupāda: Useless, all... And taxation. No security, and ninety-nine percent taxation. Just see the fun. They are very much accurate to take taxation. And there is no guarantee of security. This is the position.

David Wynne: Has it ever been perfect?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

David Wynne: Has it ever been, on earth in the material world, perfect with it...?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

David Wynne: It has.

Prabhupāda: Five thousand years ago, it was all perfect. The whole world, this planet, was being ruled by one king. And they were all happy. That is in the history. Five thousand years ago. Maybe less, in three thousand years ago, the history was different. The difficulty is that as soon as one is lost of his culture, he becomes an animal. Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ (Hitopadeśa).

That is the difference between human being and animal. Human being must be with culture. Animal cannot be cultured. So a human being without culture, he's no better than animal. That culture is lost. They have missed the aim of life.

Bhagavān: They think they have culture.

Prabhupāda: What is this culture? A human being is killing so many animals, innocent animals, is that culture? They are less than animal. Who kills? The tiger kills, ferocious. A human being killing innocent animals... In Christian religion, therefore, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing only. What is the culture? Killing culture. That is not culture. What do you think?

David Wynne: It must be so. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. How a human being can kill another human being or another animal unnecessarily? And if you kill, there is law: life for life. But they have made laws for human being. When an animal is killed, he's not a criminal. But in the God laws you cannot avoid that. If you have killed an ant, you must be responsible. That is God's law. You can avoid man-made law, but you cannot avoid God-made law. That you cannot.

You must be responsible. If you kill an ant even without knowledge, you are responsible. Such subtle laws are there. So we must know our responsibility. Without knowledge if we kill, we are responsible. And with knowledge, there is no question. Where is that culture? They advertise, "Live and let live." What is that? Do they do that? Actually? They want to live at the expense of others. Why not let live others? Where is that culture?

Śyāmasundara: Now there is a famous cinema being shown called "Live and Let Die."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is good culture. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Favorite. Everyone likes it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let others die; you live.

David Wynne: And yet Arjuna had to fight in the war, didn't he?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

David Wynne: In the Bhagavad-gītā, he still had to... But it didn't matter him killing if it was Kṛṣṇa's responsibility?

Prabhupāda: No. Fighting or killing, when it is done for..., under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing.

David Wynne: Yeah, I see.

Prabhupāda: Just like a soldier fights on behalf of the king, and the more he kills, he gets medal. The same soldier, as soon as kills one man, he's hanged. He cannot say, the soldier, that "In the battlefield I killed hundreds and hundreds men and I was rewarded. Now I have killed only one man, I am being hanged? What is this?" Why he's hanged? Because he killed on his own account.

David Wynne: There's the thing.

Prabhupāda: And in the battlefield he killed on the state's account, he was rewarded. So there is difference between killing.

David Wynne: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: When there is real, righteous fight, for good cause, that fighting is all right. Just like the state gives punishment one person, "This man should be hanged. Kill him." So who is blaming the state, "Oh, the state is killing this man"? That is right. It is good for him. In Manu-saṁhitā there is good background. So similarly, everything is good when it is done for the good. And God is good. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And everything is bad when it is done for māyā. That's all. So these wars are declared not for Kṛṣṇa's sake; by the politicians' whims. So they must be responsible for this war.

Śyāmasundara: Like the Vietnam, you mean?

Prabhupāda: Any. Any war. They create whimsical... Anything you do whimsically, you are responsible. Anything you do. Why fighting? Anything.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. It's funny that that John F. Kennedy, he started that Vietnam war, and he was shot down later.

Prabhupāda: He started that war?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: What is the position now, Nixon? He's going to be impeached? Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Practically, he is, without...

Prabhupāda: He's cornered now.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. He's lost all respect.

Prabhupāda: Prestige. Still if he sticks to his position, that is his foolishness. He should have resigned. If, if... Upright man: "All right, you do not like me. I resign." Then whole thing would have been quashed off. But he's a foolish man. He's sticking to his position.

Śyāmasundara: (aside:) Prasādam...?

Bhagavān: Prasādam will be here in a few minutes. Our position, I guess, is just to make it an easy choice for people...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: ...to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: But choice means, a child cannot be given for choice. He must be forced. Right child is a rascal. So you cannot give him choice. He must do it. That's all.

Revatīnandana: Or like, like our festivals.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: It makes it easier.

Prabhupāda: It is very nice. It is, what is called, nonviolent. We ask everyone, "Come and join." You saw our procession yesterday?

David Wynne: No, I didn't, unfortunately.

Prabhupāda: Many thousand people joined us. From two o'clock up to eight o'clock. Six hours. At last, the police had to ask them to go away. Is it not? Who told me that? Eh?

Mukunda: I didn't know. I know they were...

Prabhupāda: They were not leaving Trafalgar Square. So it is a very nice movement, very serious movement. You are known to so many big, big men. Try to induce them to understand this serious movement. If leading men takes something seriously, others follow.

David Wynne: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, the world situation is not very good. And it will deteriorate more and more if they do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. When I speak "Kṛṣṇa," that means God.

David Wynne: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: What is your idea of God?

David Wynne: Everything.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

David Wynne: It seems... I, I mean I, I don't know. I've thought of it, of course, many times, as every intelligent person has, but it's, my idea of God is, er, the consciousness of the whole world, of all that we could possibly envisage, its consciousness is, that's God, and we're the little bits of it. But would you tell me...?

Prabhupāda: Complete in everything. That is the conception of God. Complete in power, complete in knowledge, complete in beauty, complete in opulence... Everything complete. That is the conception of God. Everything complete. There is no scarcity. Everything complete, unlimitedly. So what is your idea of this material creation? "Material" means so much land, so much water, so much air, so much fire. So who created these?

David Wynne: Well, God created it, and it seems to be the aspect of God that we are attached to.

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that?

David Wynne: (laughs) But I'd rather you told me, sir.

Śyāmasundara: This material world is like an aspect of God that we are attached to, but the God behind, we don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our foolishness, that we do not know that behind this material cosmic manifestation there is God. That information we get from Bhagavad-gītā. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That means this cosmic manifestation is creation of God. These vast water is created by God. The vast land is created by God. Everything is created by God. Do you believe in that?

David Wynne: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. So if everything is created by God, then, when you create something, is it your property or God's property?

David Wynne: Oh, God's.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

David Wynne: Yes. But it feels like it when one creates it. One's surprised and didn't know what it was going to be like and cannot claim it.

Prabhupāda: No. God supplies the ingredient. That just like you are working on stone. So who has supplied the stone?

David Wynne: Yes, this I can understand, because it's...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you are working on the stone with your intelligence, but who has supplied you the intelligence? You are working with your hand, but who has supplied you the hand? In this way, if we consider that everything belongs to God, therefore the result must be given to God. This is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

David Wynne: Sometimes one gets in the way. Sometimes one, when one's own wishes intrude, one can spoil what's being made by trying to put one's own ideas at the wrong time. But at other times, even with somebody who's as bad at it as me, the, something else does come through, doesn't it? The, the, what should be there if one senses and stands back and lets it come.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Sometimes it is not successful?

Śyāmasundara: When we try artificially to impose our idea on something, say, a sculpture, sometimes we make a mistake and it comes out not good.

Prabhupāda: That mistake you are responsible.

David Wynne: Yeah. Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Because at the present moment, as I told you, we are acting according to our whims. So if there is mistake, I am responsible.

Śyāmasundara: In, in... Sometimes they call inspiration. They say, "Oh, I've been inspired," and they create something beautiful by..., automatically almost. What is that inspiration?

Prabhupāda: That inspiration means you created an idea, that "I want to do like that," and because you are persistent to act, so God helps you, "All right, you act." That is inspiration. But you are responsible. God gives you... You are persistent, that "I must have it," "All right, do it." That is inspiration. We should not do that. Unless it is desired by God, we should not act anything. That is bhakti. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). You should not have any desire(?) for your satisfaction. Then it is all God's responsibility. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167).

Śyāmasundara: What if there's some desire to make something beautiful to give to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śyāmasundara: If one wants to be...

Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa will accept not from any ordinary man, unless you are devotee. If you think that "I shall do something for Kṛṣṇa without having any relationship with Kṛṣṇa," how Kṛṣṇa will accept it? Kṛṣṇa accepts only from the devotee. He does not accept anything from anyone else. He's not in want.

David Wynne: Yes, exactly. (laughs mildly)

Prabhupāda: He's not in want. He's complete in Himself. But when a devotee gives Him with love and faith, He accepts: "All right. Thank you." That is another thing. Otherwise, He doesn't require anything from you. What beautiful thing you can give to Kṛṣṇa? He can create thousand times' beautiful thing than you. What power you have got? Why should you desire like that? But if you are devotee, either it is beautiful or ugly, it doesn't matter. If you give to Kṛṣṇa in good faith, He'll accept it. It doesn't matter.

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). He doesn't require anything. But bhaktyā, in devotion and love, if anyone offers even little leaf, a little flower, tad aham aśnāmi, "I accept." He says. A little flower and little leaf, what benefit you'll do to Kṛṣṇa, unlimited? But He says, "Still, I accept because it is offered in faith and devotion." So that is a different thing.

Śyāmasundara: It's funny, too. When David went to see the Queen one day, he took fifteen of our small rubies. They're not worth much compared to her crown jewels...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly.

Śyāmasundara: But he told her that they were like... She said, "Well, what shall I do with them?" And he said, "Well, they are... Consider them, Your Majesty, like flowers offered to you by one of your subjects." And she became very pleased to see it like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What, what is the value of those jewels to her? But if some citizen offers in good faith and love, she accepts. That's all.

David Wynne: Is it right thinking to think that one..., although one can't give anything... Kṛṣṇa, of course, has everything. Should one not praise Him? Because...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You should praise Him, certainly. That is bhakti. That is bhakti. Yes.

David Wynne: Because what I...

Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55).

(pause as people bringing prasādam enter room, moving tables, etc.)

Take prasādam. Prasādaṁ prāpti-mātreṇa bhoktavyam.

("Prasādam should be eaten as soon as one obtains it.")

Take.

Śyāmasundara: You must be hungry after all that hard work.

Prabhupāda: This is halavā?

Devotee: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, it's bananas and cream. I would think.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Śyāmasundara: The cream in England is excellent.

(pause) (break)

Prabhupāda: So if the monarch becomes ideal, it will be very nice.

David Wynne: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: There is still a feeling... In all other countries, everyone thinks, "I can become the leader. I can become president. I can become prime minister." But in this country, everyone still must think, "I cannot become the king. I cannot become the queen." The king is something higher.

David Wynne: I'm making also the new coins for this country, and they were thinking of leaving off the words "Fid def," which means, in Latin, "Defender of the faith." And I refused to do it if they left that off the coin. Because it's the most important. It means she's..., it acknowledges that she is the, although it's only a tradition, but she's the defender of the faith of the people. And they were going... They said, "Oh, this is just now archaism." But I got them to keep it in.

(pause)

What I was going to ask was to praise, I feel, and I may be wrong... I was going to ask you. When I make a piece of sculpture of... The other day, I made two dancing figures. They were just a boy and a girl dancing. But I felt that this was praising God because these were as God..., I tried to make them as God had made them, and in joy, and simple, but happy. And is this, is this presumptuous, or is this right, to try to praise the creation by making sculpture?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

David Wynne: That's all right.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

David Wynne: Because one sometimes feels that one isn't..., doesn't know enough about it to do this, you know.

Prabhupāda: Or better than that is to praise the Creator.

Bhagavān: This sculpting is such a nice art. You're very fortunate, someone to have such a skill.

Prabhupāda: You can... (Prabhupāda is eating) Horrible(?) ...carve so many pastimes of God, Kṛṣṇa's. In India, the sculptor used to do like that.

Bhagavān: Have you seen the Deities?

Haṁsadūta: Everywhere, all over the world, art's business was to make scenes of..., spiritual scenes.

David Wynne: There's no great art that isn't religious in the..., that isn't to do about God. There is art about man is already debased, isn't it. This, must be. But I feel that if one, even me, even people like me, the ordinary people making ordinary things, if they're..., if it is praising nature... Because nature's an aspect of God, isn't it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

David Wynne: And a pure one. Not, not spoiled. Anyway, that's what I tell myself. (laughs) What I mean is, if one makes a bird, if it has the feeling that because Kṛṣṇa breathed life into it and made it, and if one can reproduce this and get the spirit of it, that's praising...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also indirect praising. But you can praise Him directly.

Śyāmasundara: I think part of the trouble with our modern age is that no one has any information about God.

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is God.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. They can't praise Him directly because they don't know what He looks like or what He does.

Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda is still eating) What is this, behind the halavā?

Śrutakīrti: Behind it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Something is coming out, white?

Śrutakīrti: Oh, they probably put cream in it.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Devotee: That's all right?

David Wynne: Very good. Thank you. Lovely.

Prabhupāda: So how do you like our philosophy?

David Wynne: How do I like...?

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy.

David Wynne: I, I like it. I admire it very much. I don't know...

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

David Wynne: I don't know very much.

Prabhupāda: I know, you, you, in one day or one minute, how can you know? But our basic principles of philosophy.

David Wynne: Yeah. I've been... I was more or less brought up... My mother told me when I was very small that the Bhagavad-gītā was the most important book in the world.

Prabhupāda: Oh!

David Wynne: And the Upaniṣads and the Vedas and the...

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are fortunate.

David Wynne: So I've always known that it was true, but one, one's knowledge is very shallow. It's always felt true, is what I mean. Because an arti..., you know, a sculptor goes more by feeling than by thinking, you know.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes in your..., by your convenience you can come to our temple and see how they are executing devotional...

David Wynne: Hmm. Also one can tell a little bit about your teaching by the people one knows who were taught. I know Sam, and I know George, and they've changed. George has grown much more, much more than the others. But I knew them when they were very young, you know.

Prabhupāda: Aiye.

David Wynne: And George now has gained enormously in spiritual steps.

Prabhupāda: He's a very intelligent boy.

David Wynne: Oh, yes. But he now is wise as well as just clever.

Prabhupāda: He's fortunate.

David Wynne: And so, from this I think...

Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara has tried his utmost to convince him about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break)

(aside:) That cantaloupe?

Śyāmasundara: ...because it went on so long; we didn't stop. He said, "Other religions have come for a short time." (breaks in tape)

Prabhupāda: Give him that, some more purīs.

David Wynne: No, I'm all right, really. I'm doing very well.

Śyāmasundara: ...and something to wash hands in. (door closes)

Prabhupāda: No, he's bringing. You can take.

Śyāmasundara: David has said that he would like to spend some time, a day or something, making also your form into stone. Is that...? Or into some metal. Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: Well, what I am? I am insignificant. I have no objection.

(pause)

Or some of our artists may paint this picture. I liked it very much.

(speaking of picture of Ratha cart in the Guardian newspaper)

Śyāmasundara: It's a very good photograph.

Mukunda: It was taken in such a way so that the cart looks like it is almost as tall as Nelson's Column. Fish-eye lens.

Śyāmasundara: Very clever person who has thought up this idea.

Prabhupāda: No other publication?

Śyāmasundara: I didn't see the newspapers today. I saw two or three, but on Sunday the reporters do not work. So if they were reporters coming, they came outside of their work hours. Some... I heard on television last night, though, there was half-hour program.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: Wasn't it? You saw?

Mukunda: Yeah. On the news they had a long sequence.

Prabhupāda: You have seen?

Mukunda: No, Ranchor said it was very first class.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mukunda: Every statement was very positive.

Śyāmasundara: What was that word he used? They were praising?

Mukunda: Glorifying.

Śyāmasundara: They glorified the whole parade on television. They didn't make fun of it, or like that.

Prabhupāda: Nobody should make fun.

Śyāmasundara: It wasn't just an objective report, but they said it was good, it was nice, and had good appeal.

Prabhupāda: Yeah, everyone appreciated.

Mukunda: The last thing they said on the program was, "Perhaps this will give us something to think about for a long time."

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly.

David Wynne: It must.

Śyāmasundara: No one could deny. They had never seen such a colorful parade, so full of festivity. (someone brings water for Prabhupāda to wash hands in)

Prabhupāda: Oh, I could have gone there. All right. (sound of washing hands in bowl) Yes. So I am very glad that you have come and you have taken prasādam with us.

David Wynne: Thank you, sir.

Prabhupāda: And we had very good talks also. I'm very glad.

Śyāmasundara: I'm hoping George will come tomorrow. He has indicated he would come Tuesday.

Prabhupāda: There is basin. You can wash your hands, wash the dishes.

Śyāmasundara: Even at night the sun is shining still. Or rather, the day is night.

Prabhupāda: Here. There is basin. You can wash.

David Wynne: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I think I am eating more here. (laughter) Is it not?

Trivikrama: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I could not eat in India.

Trivikrama: Apparently, it's not causing any trouble either.

Prabhupāda: At least, not yet.

Trivikrama: Not yet.

Prabhupāda: That means I must have improved. Otherwise, how I am eating? I could not eat.

Trivikrama: No hunger.

Prabhupāda: No hunger.

Śrutakīrti: India is so hot. It's so hot there you don't want to eat.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrutakīrti: Bothersome.

Dhanañjaya: (guest has left room) It was a nice talk.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: Sublime.

Prabhupāda: The subject matter is sublime.

Haṁsadūta: This boy that you were talking to this afternoon is...

Prabhupāda: Now everything is finished. (laughter)

Dhanañjaya: Now he must stay.

Devotee: Scurrying around to everyone.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee: Would you like to wash your hands, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: I have got. Now you can distribute amongst yourselves. They have been...

Bhagavān: This is a nice book, Upadeśāmṛta.

Prabhupāda: You have seen it?

Bhagavān: Yes, it's very gorgeous.

(pause) (David Wynne re-enters room)

Śyāmasundara: If one tries to praise the Creator by..., directly, with his ability, what..., how does he know what to...?

Prabhupāda: There are so many standard prayers.

Śyāmasundara: By his work, I mean.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To glorify God means the glorify the nature also. Just like here is a poem in Brahma-saṁ...,

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-
koṭisv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam
tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs. 5.40)

Now, the whole creation is there. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (Bs. 5.40). On account of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, which is called brahma-jyotir... Just like on account of the sunshine, the whole universe is existing. So similarly, there is a shine, bodily shining, what is called brahma-jyotir.

So when the brahma-jyotir is there, then innumerable universes are created. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ. When the effulgence, brahma-jyotir, is there, innumerable universes are created. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe. Koṭi, innumerable. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭisv vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam (Bs. 5.40). And in each universe is (break) impregnated with innumerable number of planets.

And each planet has got different atmosphere. Now the whole universe is described. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Yasya prabhā. The beginning: "Whose effulgence has created." That means simultaneously you praise His creation; at the same time, you get the universal knowledge how many universes are there, how they are situated, what is the atmosphere, everything. You get a glimpse of idea at the same time. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. This is the way.

Śyāmasundara: So we see in the creation of God, it also traces back to the Creator.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation means the Creator. Just like when I see the picture of so many sculptor. So who has done it? I come to David. To appreciate the creation means you have to come to the point, appreciating the Creator. Otherwise, it is not finished. Or your knowledge is imperfect still. So these scientists, they are simply trying to study the creation. They have no knowledge about the Creator. That is the defect. Neither do they try, neither they can understand. They are so foolish and poor fund of knowledge. They should try to understand the Creator also. Then the knowledge is perfect.

Just like the scientist: they are theorizing that life began from matter, chemicals. But wherefrom the chemicals came? That is insufficient knowledge. They say, "Chemicals existed." Now, we have no such experience... Just like we ate some purīs. Purīs had to be created. Not that existed. It is existing, but when I require, I have to create it. The crude example. The chemicals, wherefrom the chemicals came? That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā.

In this way you have to study. Simply to study the creation, that is imperfect knowledge. When you come to the Creator, then it is perfect. Just like if you see simply his sculptures, so many things, that is not perfect knowledge. Why this book is "David Wynne"? Now, you go to the creator. And the all appreciation is there, credit is given there. That is perfect. Otherwise, you see so many stones are there, figures are there. But when you study that "This is the creation of such-and-such artist, sculptor, and he's such and such," then that is perfect. Study him.

Śyāmasundara: Just like by my knowing David, it's very easy to understand his sculpture.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But someone who's just seeing his sculpture, they don't know what...

Prabhupāda: That is not perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: They don't know what he's like.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not perfect knowledge. Perfect knowledge is when you understand the creator. What do you think?

David Wynne: I think yes. I'm not sure that the analogy... I think that the greatest... Well, it is true, because with the greatest sculpture, one does get to the full understanding, but if one really understands the universe, well, one would see God, I suppose.

Prabhupāda: No.

David Wynne: No.

Prabhupāda: You have to penetrate. You have to understand who has created this universe.

David Wynne: Yes. Yes. But if a great artist was no longer alive, people would still appreciate...

Prabhupāda: No, but the God is not like that, no longer alive.

David Wynne: No, but that's what I mean. The analogy falls down there, doesn't it?

Prabhupāda: God is not like that.

Śyāmasundara: But you're saying that it's better to first penetrate and understand God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Then understand the universe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Before understanding, trying to understand God by His universe.

David Wynne: And science almost denies the existence of God in order to exist, doesn't it?

Prabhupāda: That is a rascal. These rascals say like that. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is rascal number one. Immediately. And anyone, he may be a great scientist or philosopher, let him come. If he says that "I don't believe in God," then I shall prove that "You are rascal number one." That I shall prove.

Śyāmasundara: We'll bring you some scientists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So many scientist, psychologist, philosopher came to me.

David Wynne: But the greatest scientists have..., are the humblest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real knowledge, when one becomes humbler: "Oh, God is so great." That is real scientist. I think Professor Einstein, he admitted.

Mukunda: Yes, he said that "I want to know how God created the universe. Everything else is details."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means he's still thinking, "My knowledge is imperfect because I do not know about God." That is real scientist.

Śyāmasundara: Just studying one small part of God's creation...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...is, is...

Prabhupāda: You see how nicely God has created this flower, how nice artist He is, how He has put the color exactly to the same point. So there is no hand? This is foolishness. It is going on. There is hand of God, but how His hand is working we do not know. That is explained in the Vedas: parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). He has got so subtle power that it is working, but we are seeing that it is automatically being done. But He's working. He's working. Just like we work. To paint one flower, we require a brush, color and so many things. Similarly, He also requires. But His requirement are supplied so quickly that we see, "It is being automatically done." That is the... Because He's so perfect and unlimited that His working capacity we cannot follow.

These are explained in the Upaniṣad, that God has no leg, but He can go so fast that nobody can compete with Him. These are the statement the Upaniṣad, that He goes so fast that nobody can compete with Him, nobody can go with Him. That is God's energy. So when it is said, "God has no leg," that means He has no this imperfect leg. He has go..., He has got so perfect leg that nobody can walk with Him. This is the idea. Not that God has no leg. He has got leg, but not this rascal leg—after walking three miles, that's all, finished. (laughter) Not like that. Not like that.

Paśyaty acakṣuḥ (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 3.18). He sees, but He has no eyes. These are the statement in the Vedas. He has no eyes... Just like we have got eyes, but we cannot see beyond this wall. But He can see everyone's heart, what he is thinking, what he is doing, everything. You cannot hide anything from His seeing. Paśyati. That is, that is His seeing. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ.

As soon as we hear something "seeing," immediately understand the relative term that one must have eyes to see. Then when the Vedas says acakṣuḥ, immediately warns that "Don't think God has got eyes like you." Because as soon as we think of eyes, we think of our eyes. We cannot think that there can be eyes which can penetrate everywhere. We cannot think of that. And therefore they become impersonalist. Because we rascals, when we think of God's personality, we think of our personality. "So we are imperfect. Therefore, how God can be person? He must be just opposite." Imperfect knowledge.

They cannot think, these impersonalist, that God is person, but all His bodily construction is perfect, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). That Him they cannot think. That means poor fund of knowledge. The impersonalist cannot think that having eyes, how one can see everything all at a time, past, present and future. But that is impossible by us because we have got imperfect eyes. Therefore they conclude, "No eyes. He must be without eyes." Imperfect calculation.

Śyāmasundara: So if God is a person with eyes, legs, He stays in one place?

Prabhupāda: Again, the same... You are comparing with yourself, because your person can stay in one place only. That means you are simply comparing the Personality of Godhead with your personality. That you have to forget. He, He stays everywhere. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (Bs. 5.37). Therefore we have to consult the authoritative Vedic literature. This answer is there, that goloka eva nivasaty, "He is living in Goloka Vṛndāvana; still, He is everywhere." You cannot think of. You are in this apartment. You are not in your office. But Kṛṣṇa, although He's in Goloka Vṛndāvana, He's everywhere, in everyone's heart. He's seeing everything. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible.

That means you want to compare with your this foolish, imperfect personality with God's personality. That is our defect. He's distinct from our personality, but He's a person. Yes. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He's also a person like us. He's also living entity like us. But what is the difference? He's the maintainer; we are maintained. How many person you can maintain? A family of two children and one wife, you are embarrassed. And He's maintaining everyone, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti..., innumerable living entities. He's supplying food everyone.

He's supplying food the ants... Within the hole of your room there are thousands of ants. You are not supplying food. How they are getting food? Similarly, you go to the African jungle, there are thousands and millions of elephants. They eat one at a, oh, huge quantity. He's giving food. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). In the air, within the water, there are so many living entities. In the air there are so many living entities. On the land there are so many living entities. Everywhere. How He's feeding?

That is the distinction between God's personality and our personality. We are embarrassed to maintain a family of four, five members, and He is maintaining the whole family of living entities. Not only one planet; there are innumerable planets. And not only innumerable planets; the one universe, then innumerable universes. And these, all these taken together, this is one-fourth creation of God. So three-fourth creation is of the spiritual world. Just imagine how big it is. All of them being maintained by that one. This is the difference.

(someone enters) Come on.

Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. This is the distinction. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: So you can, at any time, visit our temple. You can understand, try to understand the conception of God. We shall try to explain. But we can, at least, so far our knowledge is concerned, we have got a clear conception of God, what is meant by God. Therefore we do not accept the so-called dogs as God. No. So many people come: "I am God. I am God." We kick on their face. We don't accept. We don't accept such cheap gods. God is one, and He's all-powerful. That is our conception. We all servants of God. If anyone says that "I am servant of God," he's welcome. He's my master. The servant of God is my master. And if anyone claims to become God, I kick on his face. This is our principle. Because he's pretender, cheater. He should be punished immediately. So you... There are other papers also, published? You have seen? No.

Devotee: Are there any papers, newspaper articles?

Śyāmasundara: I'll find out, report tomorrow.

Kulaśekhara: There's none today.

David Wynne: There's a lot of pictures inside, though, aren't there?

Śyāmasundara: You saw inside, the pictures?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But this picture is very nice.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. The other pictures were quite revealing, too, because they showed Englishmen and Indian people, foreigners, everyone.

Prabhupāda: Everyone, yes. And they have declared that we have distributed free prasādam.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: "To all and sundry," it said.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

David Wynne: You should write and ask for prints. They'll send you proper prints of that in the paper, you know.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. That's a good idea. We'll try to get the photograph of that, original photograph from the paper.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That will be very nice.

Śyāmasundara: We can use it in our magazine. Cover photo.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Make it a cover photo for a magazine.

Prabhupāda: "Rival of Nelson."

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, "A Rival of Nelson." Just before, maybe two months ago, the boy who was in charge of Ratha-yātrā, Mahā-Viṣṇu, we were..., he was in so much torment because where was the money going to come from to create such an extravaganza? He wanted to have the best festival ever made. And suddenly he got a letter in the mail: "Your aunt has died, has left you eight thousand pounds."

Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda laughs) Just see.

Śyāmasundara: So with that money, he has spent everything for Kṛṣṇa, just to glorify Him in that way. He even printed the magazine, everything.

Prabhupāda: Very good. His aunt's money has been properly utilized.

Śyāmasundara: What arrangements do you want to make for making a model of Prabhupāda?

David Wynne: Well, I...

Śyāmasundara: When will you be free?

David Wynne: Yes, it'll be...

Śyāmasundara: How much time do you need to...?

David Wynne: Oh, not very long. Two days maybe. But it'll have to be a bit later on.

Śyāmasundara: That's...

David Wynne: Maybe if...

Śyāmasundara: Any time.

David Wynne: August or (indistinct). I've got to go back to Morocco.

Devotee: Do you translate now?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee: You will translate now?

Prabhupāda: Translation? Yes. Everything is ready. Who has taken that Caitanya-caritāmṛta?

Śrutakīrti: Must have been Pradyumna.

Prabhupāda: He has not come back? Why he hasn't?

Śrutakīrti: Yes, he's returned with his suitcase. And yours is at the airport. They would not give it to him because it was in my name. So they gave a form. I have to fill out the form and then anyone can pick it up.

Śyāmasundara: Well, we can go tonight. Make out the form.

Śrutakīrti: The doors are open all twenty-four hours.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Make out the form. I'll go right now.

Prabhupāda: First of all phone if they're open.

Śyāmasundara: Twenty-four hours.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Then that's all right. Then do it. I think you have to pay some money.

Śrutakīrti: Yes, it will cost money.

Śyāmasundara: That's all right. We tried to sell your coin today, but it's only worth three or four pounds.

Prabhupāda: Well, that's not bad. (laughter) (laughing) One rupee.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. That's not bad for one rupee.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like...

Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has this mint 1935..., 1835 rupee piece. Show it to him.

Prabhupāda: Indian rupee.

Śyāmasundara: Indian rupee. And we thought it might be pretty valuable. So old, more than a hundred years. We went to three places, they all said three, four pounds.

Prabhupāda: So highest bid, what was?

Mukunda: The highest bid I got was one pound. They said if it was in mint condition, we'd get two pounds.

David Wynne: Yes, I think, (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mukunda: He said if it was in perfect condition, mint condition, then he would give me two pounds. But in this condition, only one pound. He brought out many samples of old rupees with different people on them.

Prabhupāda: You said three pounds?

Śyāmasundara: He told me. He said, "Two, three. It's only worth two, three pounds."

Mukunda: One man said three pounds.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you sell to them? (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: If we travel... If we go around the city, we could probably get four pounds for it somewhere.

Prabhupāda: So get the best price and sell it.

Śyāmasundara: All right.

Prabhupāda: I don't want any antique. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Oh, this... Which king is this?

David Wynne: That's William the Fourth(?).

Śyāmasundara: Oh, King William. The British...

Prabhupāda: I think Queen Victoria's father, King William. Is it not?

David Wynne: Um-hmm.

Śyāmasundara: When David was commissioned by the Queen's husband, Duke of Edinbur...? Duke of...?

David Wynne: Edinburgh.

Śyāmasundara: Duke of Edinburgh. He went before a committee of the Duke and how many...? You tell us.

David Wynne: Twelve.

Śyāmasundara: He won a competition over many others for that privilege to make the coins. And his point was that the Queen Mother, or the Queen on the coin, it should not be false representation. It should be... What was the...? You were telling us, that it should be as she is, depicted as she is. And they did not agree. But then he showed her, he showed them an old British coin. What year was it?

David Wynne: Yes. Well, Queen Elizabeth the First, a gold coin, a very beautiful one. And I said, "This was a work of art," and I showed them. It's a very beautiful thing. And I said, "I could do you one like that." So they... So I got the job. But he was very annoyed.

Śyāmasundara: (looking at rupee coin) "East India Company," it says on here.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So the coins were given out by the East India Company.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all the Britishers went there as East India Company to have trade connection.

Śyāmasundara: Disguise. So we should sell it for any price?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, people could purchase any amount of coins from the currency.

Śyāmasundara: From who?

Prabhupāda: From the currency, government currency.

Śyāmasundara: Government.

Prabhupāda: Any amount of coins. In our childhood... Why our childhood? Even when we were young men, the India, generally, they like guinea gold, British guinea, what is called, pound?

Śyāmasundara: One pound, one shilling.

Prabhupāda: So in India it was available, any amount. You pay price and take. And they would melt it and make ornament, that guinea gold. There was no restriction. You can purchase any amount.

Śyāmasundara: Why all of a sudden it changed?

Prabhupāda: But they have lost all gold. There is no gold, simply paper, that's all. Simply blessing, "Yes, you'll get money." (laughter) But you'll never get. In the bank also, any amount of gold you can purchase. Bank was canvassing that "You take gold from us." I do not know where those gold gone. Nowhere, all over the world, you cannot purchase gold. Even in America.

Śyāmasundara: You can purchase some places, but the price is so high for a small amount.

Prabhupāda: Zurich, you can get.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, Switzerland.

Prabhupāda: But you cannot get out with the gold?

Śyāmasundara: No, officially not.

Prabhupāda: Well? Then? Suppose you purchase gold there. If you want to take out, they will not allow.

Śyāmasundara: Not if they find it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śyāmasundara: Officially, no, they will not allow.

Prabhupāda: And these currency notes, the price, commodity, has gone so high due to this rascal currency. Because your enemy country, they print counterfeit and they overflood in the market. So how you can check it? You cannot check.

I know, during wartime, a Chinese man was coming in Calcutta, and he had a purchasing agent who was my friend. So he would come, and he would give a list of goods, especially rare medicines, and he'll deposit with him bunch of notes: "You spend, purchase, and whatever..." That means all those notes were counterfeit. (break) (end)