711111 - Conversation in English and Hindi - Delhi

Conversations by Date, 1971

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

711111R2-DELHI - November 11, 1971 - 54:23 Minutes

Tejiyas: So this is Sri Madan. He is architect.

Prabhupāda: Madan Mohan.

Tejiyas: And this is Sri . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

(break)

Guest: Maharaj kaise hain? (Mahārajā how are you?)

Prabhupāda: Bas theek hain (I am okay) . . . patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). Then?

Tejiyas: This is Sri Naran Svarupa Sharma. He was professor in England and then Member of Parliament here.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tejiyas: And he has been helpful. Has been very nice.

Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā (SB 10.22.35). Jiska paas jo kuch hai, sab bhagwan ka seva mei lagana chahiye. (Whatever anybody has should be offered in the service of God.) Just see our condition. You have read this morning's paper?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Swami Akhandananda is speaking kalpanā. Such a big sannyāsī, he says that Kṛṣṇa is kalpanā.

Guest (1): Who said that?

Prabhupāda: Swami Akhandananda, he was . . .

Guest (1): Swami Akhandananda, I see. That yesterday in Birla temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Birla temple, he is speaking that Kṛṣṇa is kalpanā.

Guest (2): Kalpanā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, kalpanā. Unka . . . unka (Their . . . their) Māyāvādī theory is brahma nirākāra, toh unka koi bhi roop aap kalpanā kar lijiye, sab theek hai. (so you can imagine any form, everything is correct.) You can imagine that God is so insignificant that you can imagine His form. This dangerous theory is going on in India. God is so insignificant that you can imagine, at your whims, whatever you like. Ramakrishna Mission is also preaching this, and our this big, big sannyāsī, they also preaching this. God is a subject matter for . . . of my imagination, He is so insignificant. You have seen the paper?

Guest (1): No. I haven't read this particular statement.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Rayānanda, can you get that paper, Hindustan?

Guest (2): Quite surprising. He's quite a learned scholar.

Prabhupāda: The learned scholar, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is āsurī. Then māyaya apahṛta-jñānā. Therefore, however learned they may be, māyā takes away their knowledge.

Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśr . . . that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagwan kalpanā ka vishay hai? (Is God a subject of imagination?) The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me? I am a tiny soul. And if a learned sannyāsī says like that, how many thousands of people will be bewildered, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions. "Dekho ji Akhandananda bola hai" aise. Isliye, inka bhitar woh cheez hai. Ye zyada hodgepodge inka bhitar nahi hai, ("See Akhandananda has said so," like that. That is why, they have that thing inside them. This hodgepodge is not inside them.)

Guest (1): Another one, Bala-yogi, has made a statement that, "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (1): "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."

Prabhupāda: I will call . . .?

Guest (2): "Anybody but not Hindu."

Guest (1): He is not Hindu, he says.

Guest (2): Bal-yogeswara, some other saint. He said, "I am not a Hindu."

Guest: He was giving this in Ramlilā . . .

Guest (2): In Ramlilā ground.

Guest (2): Nobody is now, I think.

Prabhupāda: (referring to paper) Padiye uska aur aage, sunayiye. (Please read further, let's hear.) What is the heading?

Guest (2): This one? "Tattva va Gyan prapti ke liye murt rupa mei kalpanā ki avashyakta hai." ("To attain absolute truth and knowledge, imagination of a tangible form is required.")

Prabhupāda: Kalpanā ki avashyakta hai. (Imagination is required.)

Guest (2): Avashyakta hai. (Is required.)

Prabhupāda: "To imagine." By imagination one is going to tattva, Absolute Truth. Just see the theory. By imagination you have to reach the tattva. Tattva means Absolute Truth, reality, and that is subjected to man's imagination.

Guest (2): You see, Swāmījī, this is the headline, which is not Akhandananda's statement. Only the reporter has put up the headline.

Prabhupāda: But people will read as Akhandananda's . . .

Guest (2): Yes.

Guest (1): Why don't you read the whole matter? If sum and substance is same as Śrīla Prabhupāda says. He says, and he says it very wrongly, that . . . (indistinct) . . . you read the whole matter. The summary of the whole matter is the same. This is very wrong.

Prabhupāda: Vasudeva, you just . . . you can read the whole thing that is fine. It is imagination. Tattva . . . (break) . . . you imagine yourself that "My lover will be like this, like this, like that." In this way he will reach to the reality. Do you think it is very nice argument?

Guest (2): Mujhe lagta hai maharaj, who khud hi path se bhatak rahe hain. (Maharajā, I think that he is wandering off the road.)

Prabhupāda: "Swami Akhandananda ji ka Śrīmad-Bhāgavat par pravachan." Aur yeh Śrīmad-Bhāgavat pad rahe hain. ("Swami Akhandanandaji's sermon on Śrīmad-Bhāgavat." And he is reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavat.)

Guest (2): Śrīmad-Bhāgavat toh woh Birla mandir mei de rahen hain. Toh aaj unka jo rupa vachan sunkar ke unse prashn karun? Kya hume pahuchaiye, kahan hum pahunch sakte hain. Mujhe kal Raghav Narayan Das ne kaha thaa aap zarur aayiye aur usne kuch prashn uttar bhi karna chahenge. Maine kaha mai toh yahan vyast hoon. Maharaj ka ye sab aarambh hona hai. Hamara 12 tarikh se rakhe the, toh beech mei main aaunga. (He is giving a lecture on Śrīmad-Bhāgavat at Birla mandir. So I should go and question him after listening to his words today? Please make us reach, where we can reach. Yesterday Raghav Narayan Das had urged him to come, and also ask questions if I wanted. I had told him that I am busy here. All this needs to be started for Maharajā. Our program is held from 12th, so I would attend in-between.)

Prabhupāda: (reading the paper) "Aaj ke yug mei paap anachar bhrashtachaar aur atyachaar rupi kans bahut aarthik. Aarthik kya? Adhik, haan adhik, kans bahut adhik bad rahe hain. Lekin Bhagwan aaj bhi avatar aur janm lene ke liye kisi Vasudev aur Devaki ki prateeksha mei hain. Swami Akhandananda ji ne aaj Laxmi-Narayan mandir, Birla mandir mei dusre din Śrīmad-Bhāgavat ki katha . . ." Iska matlab hai jo agar koi Vasudev mil jaye toh Bhagwan ka imagine karte rahen, toh Bhagwan aa jayega. ("In today's era where sin, incest, corruption, and torture in the form of Kamsa are increasing a lot, God is still waiting for someone like Vāsudeva and Devaki to take birth and descend. Swami Akhandananda had the second day of Śrīmad-Bhāgavat at Laxmi-Narayan temple, Birla mandir . . ." So this means that if some Vāsudeva is found and if one keeps imagining God then God will come.)

Guest (1): He is not a bhakta, he is a scholar.

Prabhupāda: What is the nonsense scholar (laughter) if he does not know the truth? Isliye toh Bhagavad-gītā mei bataya gya hai (That is why it has been told in the Bhagavad-gītā that) Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā (BG 7.15). Scholar maybe superficially, but real knowledge is taken away by māyā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu isliye batayein, (That is why Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said,) māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If people hear him, then for good he will be lost in bewilderedness.

Usko jo, jaisa saanp ek dafe usko kaat liya tabhi uska khatam ho gya. Yeh mayavadi log hai, jo Bhagwan ka roop nahi hai. Isiliye sab, sara duniya, vishesh karke hamara Bharatvarsh nastik ho gya. (Just like if someone is bitten by a snake, he is finished. That is how these mayāvādi people are, God does not have form. That is why everyone, whole world, especially our India became atheist.)

Guest (1): Iska karan kya hai? (What is the reason for this?)

Prabhupāda: Karan yehi hai. Aise hi sab moorkh log sab, pandit hoke baithe hain. Yehi karan hai. Hai to moorkh ab baaki pandit ka position mei hain, aadmi maan bhi lete hain. Isi karan hai. Woh apna ek position create kiya. Bolta hai, I am a moorkh. Sadharan toh moorkh hota hi hai. Usko aur moorkh banate hain. Bharat ki yehi dikkat hai. Ramkrishna mission aise prachaar karte hain. Unka bhakt, unka jo follower, bolte hai agar kisi cheez bhi, agar bishta bhi hoye usko hum Bhagwan manate hain, toh woh bhi Bhagwan hai. Aise aise nonsense. Toh isko sudharna bahut mushkil hai. (This is the reason. Foolish people are sitting as learned scholars. This is the reason. They are foolish but are in the position of learned scholars and people believe them also. This is the reason. They have created a position for themselves. Says that I am a fool. Common person is a fool anyways. They make a bigger fool out of him. This is the problem of India. Ramkrishna mission publicize like this. Their followers say that if anything, even if it is shit, we consider it as God, that is also God. Nonsense like these. So it is very difficult to improve all of this.)

Guest (2): Bishta mei agar Bhagwan mil gaye toh Bhagwan ko paane ki iccha aur dharna aadi bhi kyu karen? Stan mei pahuchne ka kyu prayatn karen? (If God can be found in stool then why desire and assume to get God? Why to even try to reach a certain place?)

Prabhupāda: Isiliye toh . . . paap puchte hain kyu karen? Vivekananda ka Chicago ka speech mei hai jo (That is why . . . asks why to sin? In Vivekananda's Chicago speech it is there) "Why do you think that you are sinner?" So jo log paap kaaj karne wala hai woh samajhta hai "hum to sinner hai hi nahi, hum toh Bhagwan hai, hum brahma, hum jo kuch bhi kar sakta hai." Usko kaun rok sakta hai? Paap punya ka vichaar nahi hai, Bhagwan ka vichaar nahi hai, aur sab cheez chal raha hai. Hamara vishaya diya hai "atyachaar ke virruddh yudh se nahi darna chahiye." (So those who are going to do sinful work are thinking that, "We are not sinners at all, we are God, we are brahman, we can do anything." Who can stop that? No idea about sin or virtue, no idea about God, and everything is going on. (referring to paper) My topic is given as "One should not be afraid to fight against abuse.")

Guest (1): Haan apka yeh statement jo aaj ka hai bahut timely . . . (Yes your statement from today is very timely . . .)

Guest (2): Kal ka aapka bahut sundar raha. Kal bahut sundar raha. (Yours was very beautiful yesterday. Yesterday's was very beautiful.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi. (No.) Our theory is not that. Kṛṣṇa is fighting. He is inducing "Fight against irreligiosity."

Guest (2): Kal ka subah aisa prabandh tha column mei. Hua yeh ki un logon ne yeh dekha kaise uska prabhav rehta hai. Us prabhav se unko ispe aa jana pada ke kal shaam ko ek telephone se sab log yaha sammalit hue. Humne kaha koi apko nimantran nahi hota hai is cheez ka. Presswaalon ke liye ek ek cheez ka ki maharaj aa gaye hain? Aur waha viraaj rahe hai. Aapko maloom hai ki woh dilli mei padhar gaye hain. Toh aapka yeh duty hai, aur apka kartavya hai ki aap wahan swayam jaayen aur jaa karke aapko iccha hai toh unse kuch bol ke muh se nikalwayiye. Kuch pake aayenge. Toh uska yeh prabhaav hua ki sab log kalka prasang suna. Sab log aaye. Barabar yahan se wahan se telephone aate hain. Maine kaha 2 number jayiye aap, jaakar ke baith jayiye. Samay jab milta hai tab aap saamne baithiye. Woh apne aap prabhu ki aise kaamon mei toh . . . (Yesterday morning it was arranged for the column. Those people saw what effect it has. Due to that effect they had to come to this, that just by one telephone call everyone gathered here. We said that for something like this there is no formal invitation given. To tell press people each and every thing that Mahārajā is here. You know that he has arrived in Delhi. So it is your duty and your obligation that you go there on your own, and if you have desire then you will speak and make him say something. You will come back after receiving something. So this resulted in everybody listening to yesterday's topic. Everybody came. Telephone calls keep coming from here and there. I said go to number 2, go please sit there. When you get time, then you please sit in front. These things happen on their own for these type of work for prabhu . . .)

Prabhupāda: Bhagwan khud bataa rahen hai, (God is saying Himself,) Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no higher reality than Me." Are we imaginists? Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: "There is nothing," I mean to say, "higher reality than Me." And these people are taking Him as a mūrta-vigrahaḥ, kalpanā. Kalpanā ki murta vigrah. Aur uska avashyakta hota hai, kalpana ka. Aap log kya arth karenge humko malum nahi hota hai. (Tangible form of imagination. And imagination is needed. I do not understand what meaning you people will take out for this.)

No. Why this word kalpanā is there? That is . . . that is my point. Kalpanā means something false imagination. Kalpanā is not reality, and Kṛṣṇa says that, "There is no higher reality than Me." And He became the subject matter of my kalpanā . . . (indistinct)

Guest (2): Kehta hai "in sab dharmo ko chorr karke meri sharan mei aa" (He says that, "Leave every dharma and surrender unto me.")

Prabhupāda: Haan, aur woh kalpana hai! (Yes, and that is imagination!)

Guest (2): Kalpana kahan hai. Aur uske baad "tu nirbhaya ho jaa abhaydaan main deta hoon." Zyada kya kahenge kalpana keh dein? Koi kahani nahi hai zyada. Ye cheezein brahma paida karti hain. (Where is imagination. And after that, "You become fearless, I will give you refuge." What is more to say, call it imagination? There is no long story. These things create illusion.)

Guest (1): Aapke aadmi abhi puri dilli mei acha prabhav pada hai. (Due to your men there has been good influence all over Delhi now.)

Prabhupāda: Hum toh kuch nahi jante, Bhagwan ki seva mei lage hue hain. Aap log aashirwad dijiye bas itna. Jo yeh seva kalse chuki na hoye, bas. Ye kalpana na ho jaaye. (We do not know anything, we are just engaged in the service of God. Just request that you all give your blessings. Tomorrow there should be no mistakes in the service that is all. This should not become imagination.) Let it become reality.

Guest (2): Haan, agar is sandeh mei pad gaye toh phir toh koi sthan hi nahi rahega. (Yes, and if we fall into this doubt then there will be no place only.)

Prabhupāda: Why this word should be used as kalpanā? I don't think the newspaper reporter can write in that way unless this word was actually spoken.

Guest (2): This is Times? Hindustan?

Guest (1): Yeh Navbharat Times hai. (This is Navbharat Times.)

Guest (2): Navbharat wale mei nahi likhna chahiye. Navbharat mei toh Akshay ji ko karna chahiye. (It should not be written like this in Navaharat. Akshay ji is in Navbharat, he should see.)

Prabhupāda: Haan aap log thoda puchiyega jo Bhagwan kahen hai ko mujhse bhatak ke aur koi ooncha reality hai nahi. Param Satya. Param Satyam. Param Satyam vastu kalpana ka vishay hai kya? (Yes, you all please ask that God has said that there is no Higher Reality than Me. Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth. Is Absolute Truth a subject of imagination?)

Guest (1): Apni imagination ko upar batate hain. (States their imagination is higher.)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (1): He says imagination is the supermost.

Prabhupāda: Aur aise koi imagination karte rahe toh Kṛṣṇa phir aa jayega. (And if someone keeps imagining like this then Kṛṣṇa will come.)

Guest (2): Woh kehte hain sansar mei jitne bhi dharm hain unme Ishwar ki parkalpana sansar ke shista . . ." (They say that, "In all the religions of the world, God's imagination is beyond's world's . . .")

Prabhupāda: Dekhiye, first batayiye ishwar ke kalpanā? (See, first tell God's imagination?)

Guest (2): Parkalpanā. (Beyond imagination.)

Prabhupāda: Yes, parkalpana ka arth kya hota hai? (What is the meaning of beyond imagination?)

Guest (2): "Lekin Bhagwat dharm mei Ishwar sansaar ki keval rachna hi nahi karta swayam usme ramta bhi hai." Aa toh wahi jaate hain, aap keh kya rahe hain? "Jo kewal nirguna aur nirakar hai. Samanya praani ki indriyon ki pahunch se pare bhi hai aur isliye bhai Ishwar samanya prani ke liye thoda upyogi bhi nahi hai." ("But in Bhāgavata dharma God not only creates the world but also enjoys it." We come back to the same point, what is it that you are trying to say? "Who is without any attributes and formless. Is also outside the purview of normal people's senses, and so God is also little bit useless for common people.")

Prabhupāda: Dekhiye koi aadmi bekaar hota hai phir usko gaali diya jata hai, jo iska koi gun nahi hai. Aur nirakaar ka artha kya hota hai. Jaise iska haath nahi hai, pair nahi hai, aankh nahi hai. Toh jiska haath nahi hai usko kya bolta hai, lulah? Lulah. Aur jiska pair nahi hai? Langda. Toh yeh Ishwar prarthna hai. Jo haath nahi hai, nirakaar maane aankh nahi hai, haath nahi hai, pair nahi hai yehi toh samjhe. Toh yeh unka Ishwar ka prarthna hai. "Ishwar andha hai, Ishwar lula hai, Ishwar langda hai." Indirectly hota ki nahi? Bhagwan sac-cid-ananda vigrahah sashtra mei kehte hain. (See when a person is useless then he is abused by saying he has no qualities. And what is the meaning of formless? Like he does not have hands, does not have legs, and has no eyes. So the one who does not have hands, what is he called? Cripple? Cripple. And the one who does not have legs? Lame. So this is God's prayer. Has no hands, formless meaning has no eyes, has no hands, has no legs, this is what is understood. So this is their prayer for God. "God is blind, God is cripple, God is lame." Is it not indirectly so? It is said in the śāstra that God is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha.

Bhagwan khud kehte hain, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Jitne murtiyan hai sab humse hain. ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Toh pitaji agar sundar hoye tab toh ache ache bacche nikalte hain. Woh nirakar ho gya toh itna sundar sundar bacche kidhar se aaya? Aise koi experience hai jo hawaa se sundar sundar bacche nikal aata hai? Hai koi experience? Hamara aakar hai, toh hamara pitaji ka aakar hai, aur unke pitaji ka aakar hai. Aapko pitaji ka pitaji ka pardada ka dekha bhi nahi hoga, toh aap nirakaar kaise hota hai? Boliye? Jab aapka aakar hai toh aapka pita aur unke pita unke pita woh nirakar kaisa ho jayega? Bhagwan kehta hai hum Parampita hai. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayaḥ (BG 14.4). Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Toh Bhagwan jab param pita hai, toh hamara jo practical experience hai jahan hamara pita, unke pita sab aakar. Toh param pita nirakar kaisa hoga? Aur shastra mei kehte hain vigrahah. Vigrahah ka arth hota hai form. Sac-cid-ananda vigrahah. Vigrahah ka artha hota hai form. (God Himself says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). All the images come from Me. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. So if the father is beautiful then beautiful children come out. If he becomes formless then where will these beautiful children come? Do you have any such experience that from the air, beautiful children are coming out? Do you have such experience? If I have a shape then my father also has a shape and his father has a shape. You must have not seen your father's, father's or his grandfather but still you are not shapeless, how? Please tell me? When you have a shape, then your father, his father, his father's father how will they be shapeless? God says I am the Supreme Father. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayaḥ (BG 14.4). Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. So when God is Supreme Father and our practical experience is that our father, father's father everyone has form. So how can the Supreme Father be formless? And the scripture says Vigraha. The meaning of vigraha is form. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. The meaning of Vigraha is form.)

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(Bs. 5.1)

Jo sabka karan ka karan hai, woh nirakar hai, yeh bhautik chinta hai. Yeh parmarthik chinta hai. Dusri baat hai, dekhiye jaisa yeh hamara shirt hai, yeh coat hai toh iska ek haath hai, do haath hai. Toh hamara haath hai isliye toh iska haath hua. Kapda, haath aisa kataa diya. (He who is the cause of all causes, He is formless, this is materialistic thinking. This is spiritual thinking. Second thing is, see, like this is my shirt, this is a coat, so it has one arm, it has two arms. Because I have arms that is why this also has arms. Cloth has been cut like this.) They have been cut with two hands because I have got really two hands. Toh Bhagavad-gītā mei kehte hain, yeh jo sharir hai, (So in Bhagavad-gītā it is said that this body,) Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22).

Jaise ek purana kapda chorr ke naya kapda liya jata hai, toh usko poshaak, shirt coat ka jaise shareer ko mana gya hai. Toh shareer ka jab ek murti hogya, ab ye yadi coat shirt hai toh asal mei jo jeev hai uska roop nirakar kaise hoga? Aapko samajh mei aaya? Coat ka haat hota hai, kyuki hamara haath hai. Phir ye jo jadd shareer hai, isko shastra mei kehte hain yeh coat shirt ka jaise. Toh agar hamara origin, hum spirit soul agar aakar nahi rahega toh isme akar kaise banega? Dekhiye yeh table hai, table ko kapda se dhaank diya, ye bhi table jaisa. Toh table ka aakar hai isliye kapde ka bhi maloom hota hai aakar ho gya. Toh is prakaar hum jivatma hai, kyuki hamara aakar hai isliye ye hamara shirt ban gya, uska bhi haath hai. Toh jivatma kaise nirakar hoga. Aur Bhagwan kehte hain Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta (BG 15.7). Toh Bhagwan ka ansh jo hai, jaise hamara ansh hamara putra hai, ke mai apne pitaji ka ansh hai, toh Bhagwan kehte hain mamaivāṁśo. Toh Bhagwan kaise nirakar hoga? Haan? Aur Bhagwan khud kehte hain, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāh, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). "Manushya rupa se mai idhar aaya hoon isliye humko ye log manushya hi mante hain." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11) Jante nahi ye param bhaav kya cheez hai. Ye sab vichaar hai toh hum log yeh jo Vaishnav, Bhagwan ki moorti jo hum log upasana karte hain, ye kya sab imagination hai? Imagination ke liye itna muth, mandir, aur bhakt sab itna sab kharch karte hain, itna sab is all for imagination? (Just like an old cloth is discarded and new clothes are taken, hence the body is also considered to be a dress like a shirt or a coat. So if the body has one form and if it is a coat or shirt then in reality the jīvā who is there how can that be formless? Did you understand? Coat has an arm because we have an arm. So this dense body is called a coat-shirt in scriptures. So originally, if the spirit soul does not have a shape then how will this body have a shape? See this is a table, the table has been covered by a cloth, so this has also become shaped like a table. So because the table has a shape, the cloth also looks like it has a shape. So like that we are jīvātmā, and because we have a shape, that is why this body has become our shirt, and that also has an arm. So how will jīvātmā be formless? And God says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta (BG 15.7) So God's part, like our part is our son, I am the part of my father, so God says mamaivāṁśo. So how will God be formless? Yes? And God Himself states, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāh, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11) "I have come in the form of a human that is why these people consider me as human." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11) Do not understand what is transcendental nature. These subjects are present, so we people, the Vaiṣṇavas who worship God's Idol is it all imagination? So many institutions, temples, and devotees spending so much is it all for imagination?)

Guest (2): Itna sundar bhumandal ko aakaar diya hai, toh uska aakara hai . . . nirakar nahi hai. Uska aakar hai. Uska bahut sundar aakar hai, aisa swarup hoga ki usne rachna ki hai. (Earth has been given such a beautiful form, so it has a form . . . it is not formless. It has a form. He must have a beautiful form that is why he has created like this.)

Prabhupāda: Tabhi toh itna sundar hai, jaisa woh artist. Yeh kya imagination hai? Woh jante hain aise. Aur kuch baat nahi hai jo is prakaar aadmi ko fatkaar diya jaaye toh phir aage kaise badega. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas, tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21) shrestha vyakti koi cheez aachran karen toh sadharan vyakti jo hai usko nakal karta hai. Isliye shreshta vyakti jo hai unko aise baat nahi kehni chahiye. Aage kya kahen. (That is why it is so beautiful, like an artist. Is this imagination? He knows it like that. It is nothing else but if a person is scolded like that then how will he move forward? Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas, tat tad evetaro janaḥ BG 3.21). If an eminent person behaves in a certain way, the common people imitate him. That is why eminent people should not speak such things. What else to say.)

Guest (1): Abhi aap kuch din toh Bharat mei hai? (You are here in India for few more days?)

Prabhupāda: Aise program hai, (The program is like that,) I shall return to USA by the month of March. So, December, January, February. November toh chal raha hai. (November is going on.)

Guest (1): Yahan par pehle ek ashram ke sthapna ki bhi baat kar rahe the . . . (indistinct) . . . ji aur kai zameene bhi dikhaii. Architecture Madan bhi abhi gaye. Khoob ghume. (Earlier there were talks about establishing an ashram here by . . . (indistinct) . . . and showed him many places. Architecture Madan also went. Roamed around a lot.)

Prabhupāda: Mil jaaye toh idhar maan mung karke ashram chal jayega. (If you get then with donation an ashram can run here.)

Guest (2): Sabki hardik iccha hai. (It is everybody's wish.)

Prabhupāda: Haan. Aap log sab. Delhi mei toh bahut jagah hai. (Yes. You all can. Delhi has lot of land.)

Guest (2): Sab sab free hai. Sab log lage hue hain. (Everything is free. Everyone is busy with service.)

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hum logon ka jo prachaar ki vishaya hai, jo Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Humko koi imagination karne ka koi zarurat nahi. Hamara paas facts hai. (The subject of our preaching is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. We do not have a need to imagine anything. We have got the facts.) We are dealing with facts. Humko koi imagination karke ek program karna nahi hai. (We do not need to imagine anything to do a program.) Already everything is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. We have to simply explain them. That's all.

Explanation ka bhi koi zarurat nahi hai. Itna saral bhashya hai Bhagavad-gītā mei. Baki woh usko aswadan karne ke liye koshish karne padenge. Jaise Surya hai, yeh Sun prakash hai aur us prakash ko band karne ke liye darwaza sab band kijiye. hai ahi hai. (There is no need for any explanation also. The language of Bhagavad-gītā is so simple. But one needs to make efforts to be able to taste it. Like this is Sun, this is sunlight, and to stop this light all doors will need to be closed.)

You cannot stop sunshine. That is not possible. But you close yourself in the dark room. It is not possible to cover Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. But by jugglery of words you close yourself in a dark room. Yehi chal raha hai. (This is going on.) "Toh hum toh nastik hai, asur hai, Bhagwan ko uda dena hai." Yeh Kans ka baat keh rahe hain, woh jante nahi khud hi Kans hai. Kans ka kya vichaar tha, "ki Bhagwan ka janm hoye aur usi waqt humko khabar do, hum maar dalega." Aur ye kehte hain woh kalpana hai, toh toh pehle hi maar dala. Woh Kans toh khud hi hai. Toh aap puchiye, "aap kehte Kans ka matra adhik ho gya, toh aap uska bhi tarah hai hi kyun?" ("So I am an atheist, I am an asura, will make God disappear." He talks about Kamsa, he does not know he is himself Kamsa. What was Kamsa's thinking that, "As soon as God takes birth, inform me immediately and I will kill Him." And he says this is imagination, so then he has already killed. He himself is Kansa. So you please ask that, "You say Kansas have increased a lot, so then why are you himself like him?")

Guest (2): Main aaj puchunga . . . (indistinct) . . . dar jayenge aaj toh. Aise pucha toh sahi ki kisliye aapne ek nayi ek kalpana kehkar, ek naye shabd ka . . . (I will ask today . . . (indistinct) . . . will get scared today. At least ask that why you have created a new, by saying imagination, a new word . . .)

Prabhupāda: Yeh hum kalpana kar sakte hai ki nahi ki aap bhi Kansa hai? Bhagwan ka kya kalpana ka vishaya hai kya? (Can we imagine this or not that you are also Kamsa? Is God a subject of imagination?)

Guest (2): Lekin swayam hi khandan karke mandan kar rahe hai aage jaake. "Par Kṛṣṇa hi par aake utarte hain." Aaker ke swayam hi pahunche hai yahan. (But he is himself denying and then accepting a little ahead. "But Kṛṣṇa only comes and descends Himself." He is saying this thing Himself here.)

Prabhupāda: Toh phir jugglery of words hai. Pehle na keh dete Kṛṣṇa swayam, Kṛṣṇa Bhagwan, Parmeshwar. Woh kehne se kya mushkil tha? Pehle kehte hai kalpana kehte phir. (Then it is a jugglery of words. Should have said at first only that Kṛṣṇa Himself, Kṛṣṇa is God, Parameswara. What is the problem in saying that? First says imagination then says.)

Guest (2): (Reading from the paper) "Swami ji ne kaha ki Shri Kṛṣṇa ke jivan rupi amrita vachan, sansariyon ko . . . (indistinct) . . . ho. Ke rogo ko jivandayini aushadhi sansaar mein . . . (Swamiji said that for worldly people, Śrī Kṛṣṇa's life giving nectarean words are . . . (indistinct) . . . life giving medicine for diseases of the world . . .)

Prabhupāda: Toh aushadhi kya kalpana hote hain? (So is the medicine imagination?)

Guest (2): Jo kalpana hai woh aushadhi kahan se degi? "Sansar mei jiske hrdaya mei santosh aur prem ki rasdhara nahi . . . (How can one who has imagination provide the medicine? "In this world, one who does not have satisfaction and love flowing in their hearts . . .")

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you.Kahan se utha ke le aaye? (From where did you get these?) All right, thank you very much. Come on. Le aao. Aap log ek ek kela khayiye na. Na na udhar hai, ye bhi lijiye. Mataji bahut cheez le aya. Lijiye. (Get it. All of you please have at least one banana each. No, no we have more. Please take this also. Mātāji, you have brought so many things. Please take.) You can offer this.

Aayiye na. Oh aapko diya nahi? Acha. Aayiye. Khaayiye. Prasad prapti matrena bhoktavyam. Prasad, Bhagwan ka prasad milne se bas ho jata hai. (Please come. Oh, you didn't get it? Okay. Please come. Please eat. Prasād prapti matrena bhoktavyam. Prasād, everything is done if you get God's prasād.) (laughs)

Guest (3): Aapne toh pure vishwa mei sankirtan failakarke kranti kar daali. (You have revolutionized the whole world by spreading saṅkīrtan.)

Prabhupāda: Haan, woh log kehte hain ye revolutionary movement hai. (Yes, they say it is a revolutionary movement.)

Guest (2): Maharaj ke bhojan ka samay hai. Acha Maharaj agya dijiye. (It is time for Mahāraja's lunch. Alright Mahāraja, we beg your leave.)

Prabhupāda: Le jayiye isko khaate khaate le jayiye. (Please take it while eating.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Phir shaam ko aayiyega. (Please come in the evening.)

(break)

Prabhupāda: Lijiye sab prasad. (Everyone please take prasād.) Give them.

Guest: Sir in the worship of, any worship, we first worship Lord Ganeśa. And . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not necessary. That is not necessary. We worship other demigods to fulfill our some particular desire. Ganesh ji ko hum log puja karte hain ki hamara kaam ki siddhi ho jaaye. Laxmi ji ko puja karte hain ki humko kuch dhan mil jaaye. Isi prakaar Shiv ji ko bhi hum log puja karte hain ki humko duniya bhar ka dhan mil jaaye aur phir sukh mil jaaye. Accha khaane ko mil jaaye. Accha patni mile. Ye sab alag alag . . . (We worship Ganeśa so that our task is accomplished. Lakṣmī is worshiped so that we get some wealth. Like that we worship Śiva so that we get all worldly wealth and we get happiness. Get good food to eat. Get a good wife. All these are different . . .) there are different demigods they worship, but one who knows that, "If I approach Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, then everything is obtained . . ."

Guest: You say a true devotee of Kṛṣṇa, such a person need not go after the demigods?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Guest: Secondly . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no need.

Guest: But if he goes after demigods . . .

Prabhupāda: If he wants some material profit. Jisko dhan chahiye, jisko uttam stree chahiye, jisko uttam khaane-peene ko chahiye alag . . . (indistinct) . . . unke liye sab alag alag devata puja vidhi hai. Aur jo khaas Bhagwan ko chahate hain, unko toh material necessities hai hi nahi. (One who wants wealth, one who wants the best woman, one who wants the best food and drinks, different . . . (indistinct) . . . for them there are different demigods and methods of worshiping. And the one who especially wants God, they do not have material necessities as such.)

Guest: Bhagwan ko chahne ke liye bhi inki avashyakta ya inki sahayata hai? (Do we require or need help from them to want God?)

Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, Bhagwan ko chahne ke liye Bhagwan ki avashyakta hai. (No, no. To want God we only need God.)

Guest: Jaise Ramayana mei kaha hai, Ram ne ki, (Like in Rāmāyana, Rāma has said,) Shankar bhajan bina nar, bhakti na pavahi mori.

Prabhupāda: Woh Tulsidas bola hai. Baaki shastra nahi bola hai. Shastra jaisa Bhagavad-gītā hai. Toh kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20) Jo kaam ke dvara buddhi nasht ho gya, woh sab dusre devata ko puja karte hain. (That has been said by Tulsidas. It is not said in the scriptures. Scripture like Bhagavad-gītā. So kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). Whose intelligence has been destroyed due to material desires worship other demigods.) Tulsidas is different; therefore we don't take Tulsidas as authority.

Guest: Then, sir, there is Rāma and there is Kṛṣṇa. You have Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Rāma is dhanuṣdhārī. Kṛṣṇa is vaṁśīdhārī. So when you . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Rāma . . . Bhagavān has different forms: rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (Bs. 5.39). Bhagwan ka expansion bahut hai. (God has many expansions.)

Guest: That's good. So that explains . . .

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu-tattva. That is called viṣṇu-tattva.

Guest: In that expansion can't we take Durgā and Śiva, even for . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is śakti-tattva. We have to take expansion according to the tattva. Substance and categories; in which category. The substance is Viṣṇu, and all other tattvas are categories. So devatās, they are śakti-tattva, śakti category, the same category as you are. The same example: just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly, you can become also Durgā. You can become Indra, Candra, Sūrya.

So qualitatively the ant, you, or a learned brāhmin, they are all the same category.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brahmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

(BG 5.18)

A paṇḍita knows that they are on the same jīva-tattva categories. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, there are many tattvas. Brahman-tattva, paramātmā-tattva and bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other tattvas, they are jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, like that.

So Bhagavān is not jīva-tattva, but others, they are jīva-tattva. Demigods, they are jīva-tattva. Brahmā is also jīva-tattva. Devī is śakti-tattva. Jīva is also śakti-tattva. In one sense jīva-tattva is higher than this material śakti-tattva. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

apareyam itas tu

viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parāḥ

jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho

yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

(BG 7.5)

Yeh sab vishleshan shastra se hi milega. (All these analyses can be found in śāstra only.)

Guest: For meditation, which form of should we . . .

Prabhupāda: Meditation Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu form. Yes. Viṣṇu form is the objective. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayo. Viṣṇu tattva . . . (indistinct) . . . the Ṛg Veda mantra. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ divīva cakṣur ātatam, like that.

Guest: But in the Eleventh Chapter of the Gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: When Lord has shown His virāṭ-darśana . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: He has shown Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśa, etc. They are all in Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Subordinate to Him.

Prabhupāda: You are also in Him.

Guest: They are subordinate to Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Subordinate. Yes.

Guest: Therefore to meditate on Kṛṣṇa, the muralīdhārī Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To meditate upon Kṛṣṇa is the highest yogic principle.

Guest: So that's what I asked . . .

Prabhupāda: Generally yogīs, they observe viṣṇu-tattva, generally.

Guest: For what . . .

Prabhupāda: But higher yogīs, bhakta-yogīs, they see only Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47).

Guest: What is fit for we people? Which form should we meditate upon?

Prabhupāda: For Kali-yuga, this is Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya (SB 12.3.51). Kali-yuga mei (In Kali-yuga) kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya.

Guest: I asked which form, that is the form . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa form.

Guest: Kṛṣṇa form holding muralī in His hand?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Veṇu, muralīdhara.

veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ

barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda sundarāṅgam

kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(Bs. 5.30)

Guest: But when you chant "Rāma," the other . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāma is another . . . there is no difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṇa. If you like . . .

Guest: The form comes different in the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they are the same. Rāmādi mūrti.

Guest: For purpose of practice I am asking, when you chant Rāma, should you have the form of Rāma before you?

Prabhupāda: That, that depends on your affection. Bhagavān has got many forms. If you want, if you love Rāma, that's all right. If you love Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. If you love Nārāyaṇa, that is also all right. But Bhagavān mūrti, rāmādi-mūrtiṣu.

Guest: Along with Rādhe? I like only both. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That is incongruency. Rāma with Sītā.

Guest: Along with . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: Kṛṣṇa along with Rādhikā.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa with Rādhārāṇī.

Guest: Then what is Rādhā tattva?

Prabhupāda: The same śakti. Cit-śakti. Bhagwan ke pleasure potency. (God's pleasure potency.) Śakti, śakti-tattva. So śaktimān. Bhagavān is śaktimān, and that śakti is Rādhārāṇī or Sītā or Lakṣmī. Durgā is also śakti, another feature of Rādhārāṇī.

Guest: Śakti in original is Rādhā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Parāsya śaktih . . . parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Bhagwan ki shaktiyan anek prakar ke naam. (God's śaktis have several names.) Originally cit-śakti. Cit-śakti. That cit-śakti is expanding. Just like we are . . . rāmādi mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (Bs. 5.39). Kalā means part and parcel. So we are also part and parcel, but we are very small part and parcel.

But rāmādi mūrti, they are bigger part and parcel. Just like if you throw one brick on the floor, so there will be so many small particles, big particles, this particle, that par . . . they are all part and parcel of the brick, but one part, very small atomic part, and one big part, this part, this part, then this part, then this part. So all, Kṛṣṇa is the origin, and everyone is part and parcel. Some of them are bigger and some of them are smaller. So viṣṇu-tattva is almost like Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: Like Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Others, they are very small. So according to the size, or according to the power . . .

Guest: Power.

Prabhupāda: The part and parcel exercises his position. Some of them are viṣṇu-tattva, some of them are jīva-tattva, some of them are śakti-tattva and some of them para-tattva. Like that.

Guest: Para-tattva?

Prabhupāda: Para-tattva.

Guest: Means?

Prabhupāda: Para-tattva is Bhagavān. Para-tattva means Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu. These are para-tattvas. Bhagavān avatāra, rāmā, nṛsiṁha, varāha, kūrma, vāmana, daśāvatāra, all avatāra. Anek avatar hain, toh yeh sab para-tattva. Aur, (There are many avatāras, and these are para-tattva and,) śakti-tattva, material energy, aparā-tattva, matter. Similarly cit-tattva, spiritual world. The living entities, although they are in the material world, they belong to the spiritual world. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, apareyam. This material energy is inferior. Itas viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. Beyond this there is another, superior energy, jīva-bhūta. That is jīva.

Devotee: Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Devotee: Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in which category?

Prabhupāda: He is para-tattva.

Devotee: And, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: Any viṣṇu-tattva is para-tattva.

Guest: What is definition of mann, chit, buddhi, ahankaar? (mind, consciousness, intelligence, ego?)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: Some people say that jīva is, you see, surrounded by mann, chit, buddhi, ahankaar (mind, consciousness, intelligence, ego.)

Prabhupāda: Mann, buddhi dwara unka brham ho raha hai jo mai, ye bhautik ego, iska naam false, false ego. (Due to the mind and intelligence they are getting deluded. This I, which is material ego, it's name is false, false ego.) He is misidentifying with this matter. He is not matter. So this ahaṅkāra, this identification, has to be purified by understanding himself that "I am Brahman. I am not matter." That is purification. And as soon as he is purified, brahma-bhūta . . . now jīva-bhūta, but when he becomes brahma-bhūta, then he becomes jolly. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54).

That is the symptom. Not that "I am realized Brahman." But the symptom will be there. If he says, "I am very rich man," then I'll see what is the symptom, whether you have got a nice car, you have got many servants, and "Oh, yes, you are rich man." And if you are walking on the street with a sweeper, how can I accept you?

Guest: If I am that by balances and . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Sab cheez ka symptom hai, you see. Symptom se pehle koi bol de hum Bhagwan hai, toh hum log thode hi manenge. Gadha log manenge. Hum log toh bolega, tum Bhagwan hai to woh uthao, pahaar uthao, dekhen. Samudra mei pul banao . . . (indistinct) . . . hum log itna sasta nahi manate. Baaki gadha log manate hain, "oh Bhagwan ka avatar hai. Yeh Bhagwan ho gya." Toh Bhagwan ke jaisa aap kuch dikhao toh Bhagwan ho. Kam se Kam chaar haath toh dikhao. Kuch nahi hai, Bhagwan ho gya. Aur gadha log maan lete hain Bhagwan. (Everything has a symptom, you see. Before showing symptoms if anyone says I am God, then we are not going to accept it. Donkeys will accept it. We will say, if you are God then lift, lift the mountain, let's see. Make a bridge over the sea . . . (indistinct) . . . we do not accept it so cheaply. Otherwise donkeys accept, "Oh see God's avatār. He has become God." You show something like God then you can be. At least show four hands. Do not have anything but have become God. And donkeys are accepting also as God.)

Guest: Maharaja, Bhagwan ki raasleela kya hai? (Mahāraja, what is God's rasa-lila?)

Prabhupāda: Pehle Bhagwan ko kuch aage peeche samajhiye phir raasleela samajhiye. Ek din mei sab na samajhiye. (First try to understand God back and forth then understand rasa-lila. Do not try to understand everything in one day.)

Guest: Nahi. Yeh aap galat kar rahe hain. Yeh khud tao mei rehta hai. Aap inke paas aakar baithke vibration de diye, toh ab yeh toh tao mei bahut rehta hai. (No. This you are doing wrong. He stays very overjoyed nowadays. You have sat near him and given him the vibration so now he is very overjoyed . . .)

Prabhupāda: Bhagwan ka raasleela bahut confidential hai, jaise aajkal ka preacher . . . (God's rasa-lila is very confidential, like today's preachers . . .)

Guest: We are just asking questions, and questions without any . . . endeavour to understand it . . . (indistinct) . . . sit and receive his vibrations . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Bhagavān's rāsa-līla is very confidential. It is not for ordinary men. Woh toh ulta samjhega. Yeh jo aap prashn kar rahe hain, kyu ke aap ulta samjhenge? Prashn ka koi zarurat nahi. Toh isliye woh Bhagwan ka raasleela ka vishaya kanishta adhikar mei sunana nahi chahiye. Isliye raasleela dasve skand mei diya hai. Dekhiye, Akhandananda ji, woh Bhagwat path kar rahen hain, toh daswa skand mei path kar rahe hain. Kyun? Aur navam skand kya hua? Usko kyu chorr diya? Ye uchit nahi hai. Ye Bhagwat mei 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 toh 10 tak pahunchna chahiye. Jaise school mei aaste, aaste, aaste, aaste hi upar jata hai. Ek dum 10th class mei koi jata hai kya? Murkhta hai ki nahi? Haan? Koi ladka ko ekdum 10th class mei baitha diya. 1st class, 2nd class, 3rd class sab chorr diya. Ye murkhta hai ki nahi? Woh kya samjhega? Kya samjhega woh? Toh step by step jana chahiye. Baaki sadharan log, woh Radha Kṛṣṇa ka jo raasleela hai, (They will understand it incorrectly. The question that you are asking, will you understand it incorrectly? There is no need for this question. So that is why you should not listen about God's rāsa-līla when you are a neophyte devotee. That is why rāsa-līla is given in the tenth Canto. See, Akhandananda ji is doing the Bhāgavata readings and reading the tenth Canto, why? What happened to the ninth Canto? Why was that left? This is not appropriate. In Bhāgavata there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, so I have to reach until the tenth. Like in school slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly one reaches to the top. Does anybody go to tenth class immediately? Is it not foolishness? Yes? Somebody is immediately made to sit in the tenth class. First class, second class, third class everything is left. Is it not foolishness? What will he understand? Will he understand? So one should go step by step. Otherwise, for the common people, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa rāsa-līla,) Kṛṣṇa with young girls dancing, embracing, kissing, just like ordinary novel and natak (play), they like it. So these professional Bhāgavata readers, they take advantage of the people's inferior quality, of their weakness, and make money. That's all.

Guest: That's why I wanted to know . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. They make money.

Guest: . . . the real significance, that spiritual . . .

Prabhupāda: The significance . . . there is no significance. These professional Bhāgavata readers, they make money from the public because public wants to hear all these things. Just like we read a novel—a woman is embracing a man, or kissing or having sex. They like it. Therefore they go the Bhāgavata Tenth Canto immediately. Their Bhāgavata reading is professional, not understanding of Kṛṣṇa.

If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then go step by step, one by one. First of all read Bhagavad-gītā, try to understand, and you surrender to Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa says, then you enter. Just like after passing entrance examination you enter into the college. Similarly, when you are qualified in accepting Kṛṣṇa as all in all, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66), then you enter into Bhāgavata.

Bhāgavata is the graduate study, not ordinary study. But these professionals, they take advantage of the weakness of the people, and they make profession and earn some money. That's all. When we speak of Bhāgavata we speak from First Canto, Second Canto, Third Canto . . . the nine Cantos to understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like in First Canto the beginning, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, janmādy asya yataḥ. This is Vedānta-sūtra verse. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Toh param satya vastu kya cheez hai, kahan se duniya ka janm hota hai, sthiti hoti hai, ye sab . . . (indistinct) . . . ayenge tab toh Kṛṣṇa ka perfect knowledge hoga. (So what is highest truth, from where does the birth of creation takes place, what is the situation, all this . . . (indistinct) . . . will come then you will have Kṛṣṇa's perfect knowledge.) Then you'll understand what is kṛṣṇa-līlā.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end)