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711110 - Lecture BG 04.01 - Delhi

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

711110BG-DELHI - November 10, 1971 - 62:27 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . by Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, five thousand years ago . . . not five thousand years ago. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that before it was explained to Arjuna, it was formerly explained to the sun-god.

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāha
manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
(BG 4.1)

Lord Kṛṣṇa said that before explaining the yoga system, bhakti-yoga system, to Arjuna, it was explained to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and sun-god explained the same system to his son, Manu, and Manu explained the same system to his son, Ikṣvāku. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2).

Kṛṣṇa said that, "This system of knowledge is coming down by disciplic succession," sa kāleneha yogaḥ naṣṭaḥ parantapa. "My dear Arjuna, although it was coming down by disciplic succession from spiritual master to the disciple, or from the father to the son, but in course of time, it is now lost. Therefore I am speaking the same yoga system to you," bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3): "Because you are My devotee."

So if we want to understand, if we want to know God, we have to become His devotee. Devotee means servant—not paid servant, but servant by affection. Just like, these boys, European boys, American boys and some of the Philippines boys, they are trying to serve me, but they are not paid servant; they are servant by affection. Just like father and mother becomes the servant of the sons. The son, the small child, passing stool, and the mother cleansing. That does not mean the mother has become sweeper. The mother is mother, but out of affection she is giving service.

Similarly, when we give service to the Lord in affection, in love, then God reveals: ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (CC Madhya 17.136). God's name, God's form, God's quality, God's pastimes, activities, are not understandable by our these blunt material senses. We cannot see God with these eyes. God is present everywhere. God is present within your heart, God is present within this universe, God is present within the atom. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). Aṇḍa, aṇḍa means this universe. God is within this universe.

Just like in your body, you are present, as I was going to explain, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, within this body, there is the proprietor of the body, the soul. Similarly, this gigantic body of universe, cosmic manifestation, there is the Supersoul, therefore it is working. Just like in your body or in my body, because the soul is there, therefore it is active, it is moving. Similarly, this gigantic universal body there is God, Supersoul. Two kinds of soul: one Supersoul and one individual soul. We are living entities, we are individuals, and God is Supersoul.

What is the difference between Supersoul and individual soul? One is very small, minute, and the other is very big. God is great. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20): God is greater than the greatest. You can conceive, in your idea, the greatness of something, but God is still greater.

And you can conceive the smallest—just like the atom—yet God is smaller than the atom. That is God. Not that He's only the great, but He is the smallest also. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān. Mahato mahīyān means greater than the greatest, and aṇor aṇīyān, and smaller than the smallest. We cannot imagine the dimension of the atom, or you can imagine, but still God is smaller than that. This is the position of God.

So He has got His form, as the atom has got form. Similarly, within the atom, God has got form, and as this whole universe has got form, the God has also got form. When there is a statement in the Vedic language that God has no form, it does not mean God has no form, but He has form which you cannot imagine. That is called formless. Actually God is not formless, but what is that form, you cannot imagine, because He is greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest.

So, you can imagine great, the great, this universe, the sky, millions and millions of miles spread. The scientists say that to go the topmost planet of this universe, it will take forty thousands of years in the light-year speed. But you can see there are so many planets. Just like you are trying to go to the moon planet, similarly there are other planets, but you cannot go. It is so big, beyond your reach. This is one universe, but there are innumerable universes. As you see that within this planet there are innu . . . within this universe there numberless planets, you cannot count even, so similarly, there are innumerable universes, and all these universes together is within God.

So the conception of God cannot be attained by our mental speculation. It is not possible. If you speculate what is God, you cannot understand. Therefore, the Vedic language says that:

athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-
prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi
jānāti tattvaṁ (bhagavān-mahimno)
na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan
(SB 10.14.29)

It is said: "My dear Lord, one who is Your devotee," athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, "one who is Your devotee, one who has got Your mercy by worshiping Your lotus feet, he can understand. Others, they may go on speculating for many millions of years, still it is not possible to know God." And in the Bhagavad-gītā also Kṛṣṇa says that, "Because you are My devotee, therefore I am revealing unto you My nature."

Therefore conclusion is that you have to become devotee, then you can understand what is God. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55): "One can understand Me by devotion," bhaktyā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ means in truth. You can imagine something of God, but that is not truth. Just like, for example, somebody very big, very rich.

So you can imagine this man is so big, so big merchant, he has got so much money—imagination, by discussion amongst your friends—but that is not perfect knowledge. But somehow or other, if you make friendship with that big man, and if he tells you that, "My position is like this," then you understand very easily. You cannot speculate. By speculating, you cannot understand God. That is not possible. He's so great; our speculating power is very poor.

In Sanskrit there is a logical conclusion: Dr. Frog. A frog within the well. You know, well, a three-feet circumference, and there is a frog. Another frog friend comes and informs the frog in the well, "My dear friend, today I have seen a very big span of water, Pacific Ocean." So the frog in the well, he considers that Pacific Ocean may be four feet. "My water is three feet, so Pacific Ocean may be four feet."

So he replied to his friend, "Is that Pacific Ocean four feet?" "No, no, it is very big." "All right, five feet?" "No, no, it is very big." "All right, six feet!" (laughter) So in this way, if we speculate about God—one feet more—God may be little stronger than me, or richer than me, little. Or more rich, more rich. In this way you cannot speculate. What will he know, the frog, about the Pacific Ocean? Similarly, all our philosophical speculation about God is the speculation of the frog within the well. Because our brain cannot accommodate what is greatness. So in that way we cannot understand what is God.

The process should be attempted. The process is bhakti, devotion. As it is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Now the present civilization, mistake of the present civilization, is that they are accepting this body (to be) everything. After this body is finished—big, big philosophers, big, big professors, I have talked with . . .

I was talking with one professor, Mr. Kotovsky, in Moscow. He is in charge of a big department. He said: "Swāmijī, after finishing this body, everything is finished. There is nothing more." Just see. And he is a great professor. He has no knowledge that after finishing this body there is another body. We are going to accept another body, not that after death, everything is finished. This conception is going on very strong, but this is a great mistake.

That is being explained here by Kṛṣṇa, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptir (BG 2.13). This is the first state to understand God. What is the nature of God? This is the first state, that I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God. If I study myself as sample of God, a little sample of God, then you can understand God. Just like you take a drop of Pacific Ocean water, and you chemically analyze the constituents of that drop of water, then you can understand what is the constituent ingredients in the Pacific Ocean. You can understand.

The difference is, as I have already explained, God and we, individual soul, are of the same quality. The quality is not different. Just like we have got creative power, God has got also creative power, but by your creative power you can manufacture a big airplane or a Sputnik to fly in the sky, but God's creative power, millions and trillions of planets are floating in the sky. Just like the sun.

You see every day, the sun is there in the sky, and it is lying in one corner of the sky, but this one planet itself is fourteen hundred thousand bigger than this planet. This planet is only a teeny, small planet in consideration of other planets. So we cannot know even what are there in this planet. So many things are unknown. So all these planets are floating. That's a fact.

So that is the difference between God and me. I can create a small aeroplane, and I can take the credit that, "Our science is so much advanced that we don't care for God." No, you cannot do, sir. You cannot manufacture a planet. That is not in your power. Similarly, there are so many things. You have creative power, God has got creative power, but your creation and God's creation there is vast difference.

So this is the understanding of God. So God is great. How great? Nobody is equal to Him, nobody is above Him. Everyone is down. This is the conception of God. So God is eternal, I am also eternal. God is within this universe, therefore the universe is working, and because I am within this universe, this body is working. It is very easy to understand. If you simply study . . . just like we individual soul, we want to enjoy our senses. Similarly, God has also senses, He also wants to enjoy. Just like here, we see a young boy, a young girl is united. Similarly, you have seen our pictures, Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, They are also united. There is also love, but that love is real.

Here, the same thing, a reflection, is shadow. It is not real. The real love is there. There is no separation of that love. Here in this material world, because it is shadow, it is false, therefore there is separation. Love without separation is in God. Relationship between friend and friend, here it is breakable. As soon as there is some dissatisfaction, the friends separate. But if you make friendship with God, that is never separated. If you love Kṛṣṇa, that is never separated. If you accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, that son will never die. So these are the conception of God.

Actually, this is exhibited when Kṛṣṇa came. Kṛṣṇa comes here, God, in His original form, in one day of Brahmā. These are very long, long narration, but first of all try to understand your self. What is your nature? Then you will understand God automatically. Or if you are so advanced that you can understand God, then you can understand your nature also. Just like God is gold mine, and I am a gold ring.

So the chemical composition of the gold ring and the chemical composition of the gold mine, the same. This is the position. Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively we are different. Quantity, God's quantity, God's power, God's opulence, God's riches, God's beauty, God's wisdom, they are very, very, very, very great than ours. That is the difference between God and us. Now try to understand your constitutional position.

Don't think that after this body is finished, or we meet death, then everything is finished, as it is going on. The greatest mistake: the world is going on, on the mistaken platform. They do not know what is going to happen after death. There is no education. There is no department of knowledge in the universities, what is going to happen after death. They are simply taking account of this body, which exists, say, for twenty years or fifty years, or utmost hundred years. And they have no knowledge what is after this body. Therefore śāstra says that:

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
(SB 10.84.13)

When one person thinks that this body is, "I am. I am this body . . ." Actually do so. If I ask you what are you, what you are, you'll give all description of your body; I'll give all description of my body. "I am Mr. Such-and-such, I am born of such-and-such father, my national country is such-and-such . . ." But these are all designation of this body. I do not know what I am, therefore I give only the designation. Therefore my intelligence is bodily concept of life: "I am this body."

So śāstra says that if one is in bodily concept of life, then he is no better than the animal. Because the dog, it does not know that beyond this body, the dog is there, he is a living entity, he is a soul, he is Brahman, part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman. These things dog does not know, or a cow does not know, or an ass does not know, or the animal does not know. Similarly, if we do not know beyond this body, then we are no better than animal, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13).

So if you analyze the whole population, you will find that we are simply a crowd or assembly of so many animals, that's all. This is fact. Because we not know beyond this body. So you cannot expect any peace and prosperity in the animal society. That is not possible. The animals, by nature they can not live in peace. They are always in fighting. Just like children: although they live together, but they will fight. They will fight. So the world is trying to have peace and prosperity, but they want to keep themself as animal. So therefore it is, conclusion is, that there cannot be any peace and prosperity in this status of social constitution.

You have to become real human being. That is wanted. And what is the human being? That is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta-sūtra, you have heard the name, if you have not studied, that is the greatest philosophical presentation of Indian culture, Vedānta. Vedānta means . . . Veda means knowledge; anta means end. Just like we have accumulating knowledge from university education, but everything remains imperfect. The scientists, they give some theory, but that is imperfect. Another scientist comes, he improves upon it, everything. That means this knowledge has no end—it is going on, going on. But the knowledge which is . . . which comes to the point that here is the extreme knowledge, that is called Vedānta.

So the Vedānta means, those who have read Vedānta, Vedānta-sūtra, the first sūtra, or code, is athāto brahma jijñāsā. Atha, "Now, the time is for inquiring about the Absolute Truth," athāto brahma jijñāsā. That means the human life. The human . . . Vedānta-sūtra, this philosophy, is meant for the human being, not for cats and dogs. They cannot understand. Therefore it is said, atha, "now."

It is the opportunity of our inquiring about the Absolute Truth, this human form of life. What is that Absolute Truth? Everyone is under the concept of this body. But that is not Absolute Truth, it is relative truth. But if you inquire about the Absolute Truth, then it is possible, because you are human being, you can understand what is that Absolute Truth. It is possible. Because this body is so advanced, our consciousness is so advanced, that there is possibility.

But if we misuse this possibility, if we don't inquire about the Absolute Truth, simply we fight with one another for eating, sleeping, sex life and defending, then we are no better than animals. The animals eat, sleep, have their sex life, and they defend in their own way. So if we improve the method of eating, sleeping and sexual intercourse and defending, then we don't go beyond the animal propensities. We have got higher intelligence, higher consciousness, not to improve the method of eating, sleeping, mating and defending, but to understand the Absolute Truth. Therefore, without understanding the Absolute Truth, we are simply spoiling our opportunity of this human life.

The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is attempting to educate people how to utilize this human form of life properly. It will not stay; it will also die, just like cats die, the dogs die. We also die, but there is difference of this death. We can die knowing the Absolute Truth. The cats and dogs die without knowing. That is the difference. In the Garga Upaniṣad it is said, etad viditva ga prayatisa brāhmaṇa etad aviditva ga prayatisa kṛpaṇa (Garga Upaniṣad).

Etad, this absolute knowledge, without knowing the Absolute Truth, if somebody dies . . . everyone will die, you cannot check. You may be very much advanced in scientific knowledge, but you cannot stop death. That is not possible. Neither you can stop old age, neither you can stop birth.

Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that you may be very much advanced, you have mitigated all your sufferings, all the problems of life, but these problems of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, birth, death, old age and disease, that you cannot avoid. That is not possible. So, if . . . but everyone has got the tendency to avoid birth, death, old age and disease.

Why? Because the spirit soul, I am, in reality, I am not subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. Because I have accepted this material body, therefore apparently I am subject to birth, death and old age. Otherwise, I am eternal. Just like God is eternal, similarly I am also eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This living entity, the soul, after the annihilation of this body, he does not die.

So this is . . . these are the subject matter of knowledge in the human form of life. So etad aviditya, without knowing this science, if somebody dies like cats and dog, he is a kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa means miser. And one who dies with the knowledge of this brahma-jñāna, self-realization, he is called Brahmana. Brahmana means brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ. One who knows Brahman, the Absolute Truth, he is called Brahmana. Therefore our business is to become a Brahmana. Don't think that Brahmanas are produced only in India. No. Brahmana can be produced any part of the world. Simply by knowing Brahman, he can become Brahmana. Every one of you can become Brahmana, if you understand what is Brahman, because Brahmana means one who knows the Brahman.

Janmanā jāyate śūdra—by birth everyone is a Śūdra, illiterate, without any knowledge. He is called Śūdra, worker class. Illiterate maybe, but without any sufficient knowledge. He is called a Śūdra. So everyone is born Śūdra. By the father and mother, when one is born, he is to be accepted as a Śūdra, uncultured. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ: by education, by reformation, he is become a dvija. Dvija means twice-born.

Just like the bird. Bird is called also dvija, because the bird is once born within the egg, and then fermentation of the egg, he comes out from the egg. Similarly, a person born by the father and mother is a Śūdra, but when he is given education up to the understanding of knowing the Absolute Truth, he becomes dvija, twice-born. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ veda-pathād bhaved vipra.

And after becoming twice-born . . . you know, you have seen sacred thread, that sacred thread is the emblem that he has approached a spiritual master and his birth has . . . second birth has been performed. This is the badge, a sacred thread—perhaps you've seen Indian Brahmana. A sacred thread means that is the mark that this man has now twice born. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. There are ten kinds of reformatory method, and one of them is initiation from the spiritual master. That is called dvija. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ.

Veda pathād bhaved vipra, and when he is allowed to study this Vedic literature . . . without becoming dvija, one cannot understand this Vedic literature. Just like without becoming a graduate, you are not allowed to enter in the law court. Similarly, without becoming a dvija, you are not allowed to study the Vedas, because you will not understand. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ veda-pathād bhaved vipro. And when by studying the Vedic literature he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes a Brahmana. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15).

Because the purpose of studying Vedas means to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God. When I speak of Kṛṣṇa, you understand God. So when one understands what is God, what is Brahman, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Paramātmā, then he is a Brahmana. This is the process. So the Garga Upaniṣad says that anyone who dies after becoming a Brahmana, his life is successful. And anyone who dies without becoming a Brahmana, he dies like a cat and dog. That is the difference.

So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that don't die like cats and dog, die like a Brahmana. That is our request. Don't think it is any sectarian religion. It is a science. It is a culture. You are trying to educate people how to become Brahmana. Just like these European, American boys, they are not born of a Brahmana family. According to Vedic understanding, they are born in the family of mleccha or yavanas or caṇḍālas, like that. There are different terms. But Bhāgavata says never mind what he is, or Bhagavad-gītā says never mind what he is.

In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find the statement by Kṛṣṇa: māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32), "Anyone, it doesn't matter what he is, even he's born in sinful family, it doesn't matter. If he takes shelter of Me:" māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiḥ, "they all are promoted to the supreme planet, back to home, back to Godhead." Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā (BG 9.33), then if they can be promoted, what to speak of persons who are really born in the Brahmana family.

So it is a great opportunity to make your life successful. Don't spoil your life like cats and dog. Just become a Brahmana. We don't expect that everyone will become Brahmana, but if a little percentage of person becomes Brahmana, the whole problems of the world will be solved. Just like Brahmana is considered to be the brain. A man may be very healthy body, but the . . . if the brain is cracked, this body will not help, everything is spoiled.

So at the present moment there is no brain, there is no Brahmana, neither there is Kṣatriya, simply Śūdras and Vaiśyas, mostly Śūdras. So as in your body there are divisions—the brain division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division—similarly the human society must be divided like the scientific divisions. A section of people must be very intelligent class of men, Brahmana.

A section of people may be very strong, Kṣatriyas, politicians, fighters. A section of people must be producers, the Vaiśyas; and a section of people must be Śūdras, or the legs. Just as compared with your body—the full body means the head, the arms, the belly and the legs. If you say that there is . . . there is no need of head, is that very bodily sound? It is dead body. It is dead body.

So our propaganda is that we want to make a section of people Brahmana. Brahmana means one who knows Brahman. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And we are all Brahman, you, me, everyone, because we are part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. This is the philosophy that, "I am not this matter; I am Brahman." This knowledge required. This knowledge, this brahma-jñāna knowledge, is being imparted in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā, that:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

Dehino, the proprietor of the body, is Brahman, the spirit soul. Try to understand it. Don't be foolish to accept this body as "I am." No. This is dogs', cats' philosophy. This is not Brahmana's philosophy. The Brahmana's philosophy is that, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi.

So it is very nice movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to understand yourself first of all. Then you understand what is God, and as soon as you know God, then you become a fit candidate to go back to home, back to God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). "Anyone who knows Me," God says, anyone who knows God, in truth, then what is the result?

The Brahmana, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti, after giving up this body, he does not enter another material body. Then what happens to him? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), "He comes back to Me." So try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Your life will be successful. Your life will be successful.

We are giving a great contribution to the human society, to understand God, or Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So you can understand God by becoming a devotee. That is not very difficult task. You can become devotee in two ways. It is not difficult. You can study all these Vedic literatures, scientific Vedic literature; you can understand. But another method is open for everyone: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. If you simply chant this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, if you don't study . . .

(break) . . . to merge into the water is superficial, you will be again evaporated. I am explaining your understanding. Just like you are a drop of water. You are mixed up with the ocean or the water, but in certain season you will be evaporated again, you will become cloud, and again fall down in the surface, and again you go to the ocean and mix up. So this business will go on.

Guest (1): Yes, of course.

Prabhupāda: But if you become a fish within the water, you will never be evaporated.

Guest (1): That's exactly my question is.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): That I want to go out of this avajñāna cakra.

Prabhupāda: So then you become a fish within the water. Then you will never come out. And if you remain superficially on the water, you will be evaporated.

Guest (1): So there is no remedy.

Prabhupāda: There is . . . no, there is remedy. You can become a devotee of God, then you will not be evaporated.

Guest (1): That's right.

Prabhupāda: And if you superficially merge into God, then you will be evaporated. Bhūtvā bhūtvā praliyate (BG 8.19). You will once mix up, again you will be evaporated; again you will mix up, again you will be evaporated. If you want to stop this, then you become a devotee. Surrender, like the fish, a small fish within the ocean. Because he does surrender, it is not evaporated. It is never evaporated, although he is very small fish. So you become a devotee, don't try to merge, serve, then you will never evaporated.

Guest (1): How can I be devotee if I don't . . .

Prabhupāda: That is, that is Kṛṣṇa is teaching, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that you have (to) understand. You have to learn Bhagavad-gītā nicely, that's all.

Guest (2): Excuse me. Your Honor, sir, what is the duty of the perfect master?

Prabhupāda: To teach the rascals. (laughter) The students are all rascals, and the teacher's duty, to educate him properly, that is.

Guest (2): Is not the perfect master, when come to the Earth, prophet, he showed to the God?

Prabhupāda: You were asking what is the duty of the master and teacher.

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: The teacher's duty is to make right the rascals, that's all.

Guest (2): When is the perfect mast . . .

Prabhupāda: So, first of all this is the duty of the teacher. So therefore a disciple should consider himself that he's a rascal, and then he goes to a teacher. If he thinks himself that he is quite all right, he does not require a teacher.

Guest (2): But when we are going to the teacher, teacher is showing from the 1, 2, 3, 4, teacher is showing, but not to what you call telling to just you. Teacher is telling, and teacher is showing us. So the perfect master, when the Lord Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: But how do you know the perfect master if you are a student?

Guest (2): When the Lord Kṛṣṇa was on the Earth . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all you answer me, that if you are a student, how you can know who is perfect teacher? (laughter) So you do not know what is your position. If you are teacher . . . if you are a student, then you should go to the teacher submissively, not that strong attitude.

Guest (2): If I am the student, excuse me, Your Honor, sir . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): If I am the student, I am going to the class, and I want to know that he's the principal teacher or not . . .?

Prabhupāda: So how you can know the principal teacher or not, if you are student?

Guest (2): Naturally he's giving us lesson from there, I will understand that he is teacher, and he will show us that, "This is A," "This is B," "This is C . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Anyhow, the books is near to us, and I do not know that this is A or this is B or this is C . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): . . . anyhow book is near. But the perfect teacher, or the master, is showing us that, "This is A," "This is B," "This is C," and then we know that "This is A," "This is B," and "This is C." Anyhow, that before when we devote our . . . to bring to class in the school, and the books was very near to us, we do not know this is one, this is two, this is three, this is A, this is B, this is C. Books was near to us, with our eyes we can see, but we do not know what is this A and B, and the teacher is the one showing us that this is A and this is B, and this . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then what do you want to know? (laughter)

Guest (2): I want to know . . . (laughter and applause)

Prabhupāda: Now, the student goes to learn from the teacher A-B-C-D. The teacher says: "This is A," but the student has to accept that this is A. The student cannot argue, "So why not this way?" That is not a student. When a teacher says that, "This is A," so you have to accept this is A. You cannot argue. That is the relationship between the student and the teacher. A student cannot argue. The teacher says: "This is A", the student has to accept that is A. He cannot argue. If he argues, then he cannot learn. That is the first proposition.

Guest (2): That is correct.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He must surrender.

Guest (2): But the master is showing A.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.

Guest (2): That's why the, what you call, when this guru is coming, we are calling sad-guru, or the perfect master, he should show that the ocean of the God. God, he should show us, ourself . . .

Prabhupāda: But first of all you learn A-B-C-D, then. Without a learning A-B-C-D, how you want to pass M.A. examination? (laughter) That is not student. The student must submissively learn from the teacher, from the A-B-C-D, and if he makes progress, then one day he will be able to pass the M.A. examination.

Guest (2): When the Lord Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: He . . . you cannot learn what is there in the M.A. examination while studying A-B-C-D. That is not possible. You have to wait. You cannot say immediately, "You pass me M.A. examination." That is madness. You must learn first of all A-B-C-D, gradually, not all of a sudden. That's all right. Any other question?

Guest (3): Yes. Your Divine Grace, I'd like to ask a very, very lowly and simple question. For some time before 1934 or perhaps '36, I met . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: We cannot hear him.

Śyāmasundara: I can . . . we can hear . . . barely hear you.

Prabhupāda: Ask him to come forward. Come forward.

Guest (3): I beg the indulgence of this . . . (indistinct) . . . I want to relate a short . . . (indistinct) . . . story which analyzes this question. Some years ago, I think 1934 or '36, between those times, I met Dr. . . . (indistinct) . . . I asked him a question. And his answer to me is like this, "Some days you're going to meet Kṛṣṇa, and you are going to answer your own question." Now, Your Divine Grace, the question was so lowly, so humble, so natural, that practically happens in life.

I asked him that in the lectures that has passed, I come to understand that God's love and that nothing that happens in this world unless God wills it to happen. During those days of sufferings, I asked him the purpose of God of creating men, and if He is all-love, He is all . . . nothing happens without His will, what is His purpose of creating men, and then these men, which he created, and claimed to be beloved by Him, suffers?

Prabhupāda: That's your question? Why He created you?

Devotee: And why he is suffering?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose a father creates some children. So the purpose is that he wants to enjoy family life. This is the purpose of creation. But the father wants that each and every one of his children become nicely educated, obedient, but if the child, the boy, is not nicely . . . properly taking the instruction of the father and spoils himself, and he is in suffering, so is that the fault of the father or the child? Whose fault it is?

Guest (3): If he reads everything, if he is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, father gave, directs everything, but if the child does not want to follow the father's instruction and he suffers, then whose fault it is? The child's fault or the father's fault?

Guest (3): Of course, it's the child's fault.

Prabhupāda: That's it. So you are child of God. You do not follow the instruction of God; therefore you are suffering.

Guest (3): But being a child, Your Divine Grace, you may not know everything, being a child.

Prabhupāda: But still, still, he may not everything, but when he's grown up, he must know everything. Just like all these living entities—there are 8,400,000 species of living entities—they are all children of God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ
tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

"I am the seed-giving father of all living entities." So there are 8,400,000 species of living entities. Just like the . . . there are 2,000,000 species of living entities within the water, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). In this way the living entities are growing consciousness. Actually, when he comes in the human form of body, then he is his full consciousness. At that time—that is our subject matter—that time he should know why he is suffering, what is the cause. So similarly, when he finds that he is suffering on account of his being disobedient to the father, and he rectifies himself, he becomes happy.

So you, first of all try to understand why you are suffering, and in human form of life you can rectify why you are suffering. And then you become again happy. God has not made you unhappy. You became disobedient. You wanted to enjoy life in a certain way. God has given you the chance, "All right, you do it." But you are not happy. Huh? God does not want you to become happy, therefore He comes, He instructs you again and again. But you do not hear. You neglect the instruction of God. There are your suffering. You come to your consciousness, become obedient to God, you will be happy. That is our propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (3): I should now request you, Your Divine Grace, if God wills everything?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Means without His will you cannot do anything. But first will is yours. You wanted to become like that. God has given you a body like that to enjoy, but you are not happy.

Guest (3): Thank you for the answer.

Prabhupāda: Any other question? All right, let us chant. Chant with us. Yes, there is. Come forward please.

Guest (4): I would like to ask the teacher, I, as I understand the Ramakrishna movement is, uh, Hare Kṛṣṇa, rather, movement is, uh, centering on the practice of chanting the great mantra Hare Kṛṣṇa. No? My question is, what is the . . . why is that this particular movement is not emphasizing so-called meditation?

Prabhupāda: It is meditation. When you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, your senses are attracted by this vibration. You hear. As soon as you hear, your mind is fixed up, that is meditation.

Guest (4): The chanting is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation.

Guest (4): . . . bhakti meditation?

Prabhupāda: Meditation . . . if you meditate individually, you will have to try so many things. But when I loudly chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, your meditation immediately attracted. This is the easiest method of meditation in this age.

(pause) Chant. (break) (end)