751117 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

751117MW-BOMBAY - November 17, 1975 - 47:58 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . poverty.

Dr. Patel: They have poverty . . . we have seen utter poverty, sir, extreme poverty, as compared to other countries.

Prabhupāda: Poverty . . .

Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat all the life. Ninety percent of the peasantry absolutely, completely wiped out during the Britishers' time. They never looked after them.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Poverty is the cause of nonretirement?

Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat. They hardly get, I mean, two meals. Not square, but even triangle. (laughs) They don't get any food in the mofises.

Prabhupāda: What is the question of mofises? I am talking of . . .

Dr. Patel: India is made up of all villages and mofises. Cities are few.

Prabhupāda: So that is the cause of nonretirement?

Dr. Patel: I mean to my mind. It may be another cause also. I don't know. What do you think? Lack of proper education?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big men like Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi, they never retired.

Dr. Patel: Gandhi, as a matter of fact, retired long back. I mean the . . . as far as I know, he was not a member of the Congress.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It was everything.

Dr. Patel: That is . . . you are . . . "You may not be member, but you are everything." They like that. I mean, if I am not wrong.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by retire? Retire means . . .

Dr. Patel: Retire from the worldly affairs.

Prabhupāda: From the worldly affairs. That is retire. We are not śūnyavādi. The retirement means . . .

Dr. Patel: Our religions are dharma, artha, kāma and mokṣa. It is in a continuity. It is a sort of a string . . . (indistinct) . . . first you have artha . . .

Prabhupāda: The real thing is, they do not retire on account of their strong sense of gratification. That is the reason, not that poverty-stricken. Even though poverty-stricken, still they want to enjoy. This is the basic thing. There is nothing to be enjoyed; still, he wants to enjoy. That mentality.

Dr. Patel: Why with all that glorious past and glorious culture they have to . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . the principle, varṇāśrama-dharma.

varṇāśramācāravatāṁ

puruṣena paraḥ puman

viṣṇur aradhyate puṁsaṁ

nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam

(CC Madhya 8.58)

(aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Nanyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam. Tat-toṣa means to satisfy Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. They don't want to do that. They want to satisfy their senses.

Dr. Patel: Our culture was so built as to do work for Kṛṣṇa throughout the life, from brahmācārya, gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha, sannyāsa.

Prabhupāda: But where is the question. Unless . . .

Dr. Patel: But how they have forgotten this is the greatest, I mean, mystery to me. Because the sādhus voluntarily, I mean, embrace poverty?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: All those, sir . . .

Prabhupāda: This service to Kṛṣṇa has disappeared on account of this Māyāvāda philosophy.

Dr. Patel: You think so.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And Māyāvāda philosophy was necessary to dislodge the Buddhist, degenerated Buddhism.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūnyavādi. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. They are practically the same. Buddhists say that everything is zero ultimately. And the Māyāvādīs say . . .

Dr. Patel: Māyāvādīs, sir, have been proved that if everything is zero, who sees the zero? Who sees the zero?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Māyāvādī says zero, just like the sky. The sky is there, but it is zero. You cannot see the planet.

Dr. Patel: But who sees all these things? That is what . . .

Prabhupāda: And he cannot see; therefore he says it is zero. Just like now you do not see the stars, but it is on account of my deficient vision I do not see, and I say: "It is zero." Less intelligent.

Dr. Patel: Apahṛta-jñāna, you see. Apahṛta-jñāna (BG 7.15).

Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. The apahṛta-jñāna Māyāvādīs, they have spoiled the whole thing.

Dr. Patel: Do you think, in your opinion, Māyāvāda was a necessity to undo all the bad effect of the degenerated Buddhism? This followed some three, four or seven hundred years of after Gautama Buddha.

Prabhupāda: No, it . . . it might be necessity for the time being. Buddhism also was a necessity for the time being. They are not for all. Emergency. Just like it is going on, "emergency." It is not necessity, but sometimes we have to take emergency. Otherwise how Vaiṣṇavas are worshiping Lord Buddha? Eh? Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jatam: "You are always deriding the Vedic principles," śruti-jatam. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghāṭam. This is emergency that, "You have become so much compassionate upon the poor animals because they are unnecessarily being killed." Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa. He is glorifying, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, but showing that, "You are deriding Vedic principles." So how is that, if one derides Vedic principle, at the same time, jaya jagadīśa hare?

Dr. Patel: Because the Vedic principles were not properly understood by those people at that time.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He directly said: "I don't care for the Vedas." Lord Buddha says. So who will worship a person who directly says: "I don't care for your Vedas"? Shall you go to worship a Buddhist or Muhammadan? No. This is emergency. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita paśu-ghāṭam. He cannot deride the Vedic principle, but it was necessary at the time. Otherwise these rascals will not stop.

Dr. Patel: Today, sir, the more animals are being killed than what they were killed in those days in the name of religion. Today it is in the name of the civilization

Prabhupāda: Because . . . no, no. Now there is no religion. "Secular." There is no religion.

Dr. Patel: Don't say no religion. Secularism is irreligious . . .

Prabhupāda: Secular means no religion.

Dr. Patel: Irreligious rather than. No religion is also something good. But something other than religion.

Prabhupāda: You may call anything, but there is no religion. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samanaḥ. They are animals, that's all. The modern civilized man is nothing but an animal—dressed animal, two-legged animal. The animals are four-legged, and these animals are two-legged, that's all. Or big animal. (break) . . . varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The leaders of this modern civilization, they are being praised by other animals. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ (SB 2.3.19). Śva means dog, and . . .

Dr. Patel: Kharaḥ means asses.

Prabhupāda: Śva-viḍ . . . viḍ-varāha means hogs, and uṣṭra means camel, and kharaḥ means gāḍha, ass. So these leaders are being praised by these animals—dogs, hogs, camel and asses. And they are thinking they are very big men. What is the value of prayers offered by dogs, hogs, asses and camel? The general people are dogs, hogs, camel. I think you have read. I have explained how they are camel, how they are dog, how they are hog and how they are ass. I have explained this.

Yaśomatīnandana: That's the Second Canto.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The modern education means to create dogs. The dog goes door to door and moves the tail, "Please give me if you have anything." So this educated person with application goes, and they say: "No vacancy. Get out." Therefore they are dogs. Educated means dogs. They are creating dogs. In Vedic culture no brāhmaṇa will accept any job. No kṣatriya will accept any job. No vaiśya will accept any . . . only śūdras. Only śūdras.

Dr. Patel: Now they are keeping dogs in their kitchens. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Doggish mentality is there.

Dr. Patel: You see, the people are spending more than thirty, forty rupees on a dog every day. But they won't pay two rupees to a servant, domestic servant in their home.

Prabhupāda: They are keeping servants also. But educated dogs. After passing so many examinations, they are seeking after master. And without master they will starve. This is doggish mentality. A big technologist, unless he gets a good job, he is nothing but dog.

Dr. Patel: He has got no means to further his technology. He must have some means to further his own technology in the modern times, sir. It is very difficult to further your technology without proper means, instruments.

Prabhupāda: On the principle it is dog's business. Unless you get a master, you are useless. So that is dog's business. Just like these dogs here on the beach. Because they have no master, they are forlorn, only barking and going here, there. That's all. Sanātha jīvitaḥ. So we are, every one of us, we are now dogs of the material nature, or just like street dogs. So therefore . . . (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore we should take shelter of the big master, Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be all right. (aside) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . vantam eva caran nirantaram. This is Yamunācārya's prayer. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaram. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaraṁ praśānta-nihśeṣa-gato . . . praśānta-nihśeṣa-gato-rathāntara (Stotra-ratna 43). (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) . . . all right? No. Not yet. You are feeling all right? No.

Ambarīṣa: Yes, feeling all right. Yes. (break)

Indian man (1): Coconut tree along this side, Prabhupāda asking. Where sea is there . . . (indistinct) . . . (break)

Ambarīṣa: . . . warm weather in Florida. Tropical weather.

Prabhupāda: Huh? In Honolulu. That means it depends on weather also, not only seaside. (break)

Lokanātha: We chant, "gaura nityānanda bol, haribol, haribol . . ."

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Lokanātha: "Gaura śrī advaita . . ." Is it recommended by you? That is in our paramparā? And what about "jaya jagannātha, jaya jagannātha"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. (break) . . . anukīrtanam, to chant always the Lord's name. So these are Lord's name. Jagannātha is also Lord's name. Nityānanda is also Lord's name. (break) . . . harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). So harer nāma can be chanted.

Lokanātha: But chanting in that particular fashion, saying "jaya jagannātha, jaya jagannātha . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting means glorifying. Jaya jagannātha: "Please engage me." (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Indian man (2): South Indian community brāhmaṇas have spread all over Bombay now.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): South Indian community brāhmaṇas and in Goregaon, Mullan, Timpu, Nartinga, everywhere. In a year they have about eight to ten saptahams are there. Saptahams. The Nārāyaṇī and that . . . (indistinct) . . . that children are chanting every day. One guru is there everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . study all these things. And the saptaham . . . (indistinct) . . . Guruji, he is from Guruvayur temple only. He is staying in . . . (indistinct) . . . about fifty years, and many people from there, and the whole time I had a glance of . . . (indistinct) . . . I went from. I used to go there every saptaham every two, three years. (break) (devotees testing microphone) (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . last days, week, he saw the people are coming. And then he was climbing on the top of the roof and shouting, "Why boys are not coming?" "They will come. Don't worry."

Prabhupāda: Don't bring Ramakrishna as authority.

Dr. Patel: No, but that same thing here. I mean, the people will come.

Prabhupāda: They are coming. They are coming. That is another thing. But "People will come, therefore I shall have to sleep," this is not . . .

Dr. Patel: At least I am coming. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: So at night there was work?

Saurabha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa (break) . . . government is making secular. That means they think that there is no need of this spiritual education.

Dr. Patel: Sir, the secular means, I mean, respect for all the methods of worship.

Prabhupāda: There is no method.

Dr. Patel: But they means secular means no dharma. That is their definition. It is a wrong definition.

Prabhupāda: That is a defect of the government, that they do not know what is spiritual life. They have no knowledge. Mūḍhas. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). They do not know this. They cannot also explain what is the aim of life. That Professor Kotovsky, such a big man, he said: "Swāmījī, after death everything is finished."

Dr. Patel: Bhasmi bhūtasya śarīrasya kutaḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is this philosophy. This philosophy is prominent all over the world. They are . . . "So long this body is there, enjoy it to the utmost. And after death everything is finished." Bās.

Dr. Patel: Yavaj jīvaṁ sukham . . .

Prabhupāda: Sukhaṁ jivet.

Dr. Patel: . . . kṛtva ghṛtaṁ pibet . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Kutaḥ punar agamano abhavet.

Nanda-kumāra: Harikeśa, he is feeling sick. He has a bad headache. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . you have come? As soon as he has come, he is feeling headache. (laughter) And pain in the stomach is very good disease. Nobody can see. (laughter) If I say: "I am feeling headache," you cannot see. I can sleep very nicely. And pain in the stomach you cannot see. These two diseases are beyond the physician's limit.

Indian man (3): And these are common disease.

Dr. Patel: No, no, as a matter of fact, if there is a continuous headache, we can give him a number-one needle. Then his head will be cured. Then he will say: "I am all right sir. Now don't do it," with this much of needle inside. (break)

Prabhupāda: The first cultural education is how to teach the small children to become purified, brahmacārī.

Dr. Patel: In ancient times it was done by association in gurukulas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required, gurukula. We are starting, therefore, gurukulas. And it is becoming . . .

Dr. Patel: Gurukula. Kula of guru.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). This is the beginning. A brahmacārī should live in the aśrama of guru, danta, self-controlled, and only for the benefit of guru, not for anyone's benefit. Brahmacārī guru . . . they'll go, collect alms, and everything should be delivered to guru.

Dr. Patel: When Kṛṣṇa was sent to collect the wood.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guror hitam. The brahmacārī life means only for the benefit of guru. Everything is there in Bhāgavatam.

Dr. Patel: That mode of teaching, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: That can be introduced.

Dr. Patel: . . . in a different way is there in America, sir. The American professors keep boys with them. They imbibe in them complete spirit of their educa . . . I mean, their mode of . . .

Prabhupāda: I don't think so.

Dr. Patel: Not this—I mean, the material. But that is the way they do it. That is why their method of education is better than others.

Prabhupāda: They drink.

Dr. Patel: Drinking is different story. I talk of the general mode of education, the way.

Prabhupāda: No. Here are Americans. Is that the education? I don't think so.

Dr. Patel: No, postgraduate education is like that. Not undergraduate. The postgraduate boys are living in close contact with the professors for the research.

Brahmānanda: Only a few schools.

Dr. Patel: Ah, but there are. The research is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the professor is also drunkard.

Dr. Patel: Then he may be a drunkard.

Brahmānanda: They drink together. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: That's right. That is right.

Prabhupāda: The professor goes to hell, and the student also goes. That's all. (laughter)

Indian man (3): This is their close association.

Dr. Patel: You see, that is the way they . . .

Prabhupāda: So you know that story, that one man was drinking, so his friend told him, "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my mother drinks." "Oh, she will also go." "My father drinks." "Oh, he will also go." "My brother drinks." "Oh, he will also go." "Then where is hell? (laughter) Father, mother, brother, myself, if we live together, then where is hell?" (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: That's a fact. Education by association is the superior method, whatever type of education may be.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Whatever type of education may be, but that is the real education.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Not whatever. This is the education, that the . . .

Dr. Patel: Hum bahut jaldi aa gaye, 6.30. (I came very early, 6.30.)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. This is education. There is no question of A-B-C-D. First of all, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dantaḥ. He is to be trained how to become sober and gentle.

Dr. Patel: Self-controlled.

Prabhupāda: That is required. That is education. This is not education. They are killing the teachers. They are killing teachers. You do not know?

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: In the examination hall the police is there, and if the guard detects, "Oh, you are taking notes from books," then he will be killed. So many teachers have been killed.

Indian man (3): India mein bhi chakoo leke jata hai. (In India, they also take knives.)

Prabhupāda: Police. Under police they are. I saw in Delhi. One school I went, and the police is there, examination room, but all thieves, rascals. And they are sitting in examination for passing. All rascals.

Dr. Patel: The modern education has become a farce in that dress.

Prabhupāda: Farce, yes. No education. Amongst the Marwaris, the respectable gentlemen, they don't send. They keep private teachers, paṇḍitas, for learning Sanskrit, English. They know that our . . . "My boy hasn't got to earn money. He has to sit here. That's all. Why he should be spoiled?" They know very well, "We can purchase these technologist."

Indian man (3): Ek bar Prabhupāda student log kya kiya master ko le gaya patti marke ke picnic manane . . . usko swimming karna nahi aata hai wo challang se pani me kood gaya aur exam me pas karega nahi karega bolo nahi tumhe dubo dega bolta hai . . . aisa hua hai. (Once Prabhupāda, the students—what they did, they took the teacher by bluffing for enjoying a picnic . . . he did not know how to swim. He jumped into the water and threatened him, "Will you pass me in the exam or not or I will drown you."—it happened like that.)

Prabhupāda: Everything farce. There is no education.

Indian man (3): . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Dr. Patel: They decried him. yes Woh . . . that hindi seekhane wala. (He was . . . he was teaching Hindi.) In our time we had so much respect for our teachers, and what love teachers had for us. One of my teachers in the school retired some time back and then . . . (break) They wanted to give him 65,000 rupees because he was a seventy-five years. And when we collected from the old students it came to more than six lakhs of rupees. That was the love of the old students for the teacher in those days. Now it is this. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . infection and disinfection also, but you don't take to disinfection. That is our . . . here is disinfection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Who is going to take it? They will prefer to be infected. (break) . . . respectable person will send their children to gurukula. They don't want. I tried in the beginning. It was a failure. They don't want. Just like Prahlāda and Hiraṇyakaśipu. What is the trouble? The Prahlāda was devotee, and his father did not like him that, "Why you should be devotee? You become politician, diplomat." That is the difficulty, that nowadays everyone is Hiraṇyakaśipu, and he wants that his son should be diplomat, politician, black market and . . . what is the use of this Prahlāda? That is going on, especially in India. (break) Hiraṇyakaśipu, he'll never like to see his son Prahlāda. And our system is to make Prahlāda. So nobody will like it.

Brahmānanda: They had a gurukula here at Hare Kṛṣṇa Land. Isn't it? And then many of the children of the tenants were coming, and they were wearing tilaka. And then they would go home and tell their parents not to eat meat and so on, and the parents became very angry and took their children back. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Hiraṇyakaśipu education, then it is filled up immediately. And if you introduce Prahlāda education—vacant. (break) Hmm? (laughs) (break) . . . meet me at night, all you. (break) Who are living?

Girirāja: Our men? One room is for the school, and Yaśomat . . .

Indian man (4): School, gurukula school.

Girirāja: The children. Then Yaśomatīnandana's wife was staying there, and Bilvamaṅgala and his wife used to stay there.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Girirāja: One Bilvamaṅgala and his wife used to stay there.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have moved out.

Girirāja: So they've left. And Nayanābhirāma and his wife used to stay there, and they have left. So actually it could be empty.

Prabhupāda: But I saw yesterday someone living there.

Girirāja: Well, Yaśomatīnandana's wife is gone.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yesterday.

Prabhupāda: No, there is some Indian woman.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You saw her yesterday?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: Well, that's probably Bilvamaṅgala's wife before they moved.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) . . . modern, that the earth comes in front of the moon or the sun, and then there is eclipse. Do they not?

Dr. Patel: They, all the scientists also say the same thing, sir. When it comes in the straight line the eclipse . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I am saying, repeating their word. But why, then, eclipse takes place irregularly?

Dr. Patel: Because this is a question of simple harmonic motions according to the scientists here who explain it. The simple harmonic motion principle is that several motions are, I mean, going, gathered at a time. Then all of them come together, you see. Then, you see, that thing occurs.

Prabhupāda: No . . .

Dr. Patel: So that motions are different. The different timings come.

Prabhupāda: But that means they do not know actually the motions.

Dr. Patel: And the old astrologers and scientists of India, they have planned it perfectly, when it comes out.

Prabhupāda: Our śāstra says that it is Rāhu's attack. So attack does not come regularly.

Dr. Patel: That you may call allegorically.

Prabhupāda: One . . . suppose you have got enemy. You are not going to attack regularly, but when there is some opportunity you go to attack. Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21).

Dr. Patel: Are we not observing this eclipse rituals, that during the eclipse we stop āratis and all of this . . .

Prabhupāda: Why?

Dr. Patel: And after the eclipse is over, take bath and then do the ārati?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they take bath.

Dr. Patel: Even the other Vaiṣṇava mandirs don't do ārati during that period if it comes within that . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Some sort of cosmic disturbances must be occurring in the cosmos during this period of grahaṇa, or eclipse. We do not know, the modern science. Some movement must be happening.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our śāstra says it is attack by Rāhu. Rāhu . . .

Dr. Patel: Rāhu means . . . the other side of the earth's shadow is Rāhu, as we say. The modern scientists, the Rāhu means other side of the shadow. When the sun shines on the earth, the other side of the earth is, I mean, the night, and the shadow of the earth is long, drawn up in the cosmos. And in the view of that shadow, if moon comes, then it is caught by the shadow.

Prabhupāda: No, in the . . . Rāhu, Rāhu . . . Rāhu comes in front . . .

Dr. Patel: That is . . . the shadow is the Rāhu. What else could be? That shadow of earth in the cosmos is the Rāhu, most probably to me, because when the moon . . . generally moon does not come so very often therein in the purview of that shadow. When it comes, it gets eclipsed.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They give that the earth comes in front of the sun or the moon, therefore the shadow.

Dr. Patel: Earth comes in front of the sun. Then it becomes sun eclipse.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, but why, if the movement is regular, then the earth come regularly.

Dr. Patel: But there are several movements, sir. The movement of the earth, sun and moon.

Prabhupāda: That means again escaping.

Dr. Patel: All harmonic motions . . .

Devotee (5): Many shooting stars . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: Things should be thought scientifically.

Prabhupāda: What is the scientifically if you cannot say how many movements are there?

Dr. Patel: All the movements that the heavenly stars and other things are going on in a particular way.

Prabhupāda: No, you do not know what are the movements. You therefore say there are several movements, but you do not know what are these movements. That is not scientific. To avoid the explanation, if the scientist says that there are several movements . . . but you explain what is that movement. According to our śāstra there is no individual movement. The whole system is moving, making center the polestar. That we can see at night. They have . . . star and planet, they have no separate movement. They are fixed up. Just like this tree: there are so many leaves. The tree is moving, so the leaves and twigs, they are moving, not that the leaf is moving.

Dr. Patel: This is a question of relativity, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that we can see, this . . .

Dr. Patel: Now, the earth moves round the sun and the moon moves round the earth . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no . . .

Dr. Patel: And the rate of movement is different on either side. And the axis or ground on which it moves also differs. So when all of them collide or sort of a thing, then eclipse comes. That is the modern understanding.

Prabhupāda: And the . . . when Brahmānanda was speaking that word yesterday, I refuted your argument?

Brahmānanda: You were asking, "Why is it Sunday, Monday . . ." So I explained that the sun is the center of the universe, therefore the sun comes first.

Dr. Patel: No, various suns are there. All the stars are the suns of various universes.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept that. No. Sun is one.

Dr. Patel: That is the fundamental difference of opinion that we don't go ahead of it, sir.

Prabhupāda: No, why shall I go according to the dictation of the rascals? We are not so rascal.

Dr. Patel: And now we are define who is a rascal.

Prabhupāda: No, rascal is meant, who has no authority. They are changing every day. They are changing. We don't change. These rascals are changing . . .

Dr. Patel: These fundamentals, sir, cannot be changed.

Prabhupāda: In nineteenth century one theory, and twentieth century another theory and then another theory, another theory. This is going on.

Dr. Patel: The truth is not changed, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they are changing. You see here . . . you have not seen that, our Svarūpa Dāmodara's book? He has given: simply changing, simply changing, these rascals. Changing means rascal. He does not know. "It is this. It is this." Another man, "No, no, it is not this. It is this." Therefore all of them rascals.

Dr. Patel: About this Kakubh Kapoor Chakra, our scientist, Mihila, has planned it, and according to the eclipse and sun and the moon eclipse come. That means his science was perfect. Otherwise it would not come at that particular day, time, and . . .

Prabhupāda: We . . . our . . . five thousand years ago Śukadeva Gosvāmī said that, "As I have heard it, I am explaining." That means time immemorial, the thing is . . . same thing is coming. There is no change. Not that after few days, "No, no. It was wrong. This is now right." Again somebody comes.

Dr. Patel: They are explaining the truth in their own way. That is the change of theory. But the truth is the same.

Prabhupāda: That is the truth of rascaldom, as soon as you change your position.

Dr. Patel: Theory is rascal, but the truth is never rascal.

Prabhupāda: No, no, truth you do not know. Therefore rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: They do not know how to explain. Truth is there, sir.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyway, he does not know; therefore he is a rascal, either you say this way or that way.

Dr. Patel: Truth is there.

Prabhupāda: No, no, truth is there, but they cannot present the truth rightly. That is rascaldom. Truth is there, that is certain. But they cannot present the truth in right way.

Dr. Patel: You mean they are groping in the dark.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is rascal. How things are happening—every ten years they are changing their theory. And that has been explained by, not by a layman like me. Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he has explained. He has concluded Darwin's theory completely wrong. You have read that small booklet?

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And he has given reason, quotation, how simply he's speculator.

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact the whole cosmos is full of, I mean, intelligence. That is God. But then that intelligence is struck in different way to the, what you call the mind, which is embedded in the matter. So, I mean, each one explains it in his own way, as he understands . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. You cannot explain truth in your own way.

Dr. Patel: The whole truth nobody knows and sees. Even our śāstra says.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Things which one does not know, he should not try to cheat others by placing some untruth.

Dr. Patel: It is like five blind men seeing an elephant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you should not give the conclusion that, "Elephant is like . . ."

Dr. Patel: Then we don't accept . . . it is very difficult to know the whole truth by any one of us.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore our process is upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ, one has seen the truth. Not these rascals. Tattva-darśinaḥ. Darśinaḥ means who has actually seen. There is no change. The advice is, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevaya (BG 4.34). These are the thoughts. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Not that theoretical. Tattva-darśinaḥ. You have to go there, then you will get knowledge. A blind man goes to another blind man, what is the profit? No profit.

Dr. Patel: Andhena andha-niyataḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Andha yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man must go to a man who has got eyes, who has seen. Then that is right knowledge. Now we are presenting this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Let anyone come and challenge. Let anyone come. We have got many scientists. They will talk. What is the value of speculation?

Dr. Patel: I think some scientists have talked nonsense before you.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dr. Patel: So you are . . . (laughs) All scientists are not like that, sir. (end)