730730 - Conversation - London
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...how you can reject one and accept another. It must be properly utilized.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like if one has got money, he cannot... He can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Similarly hiṁsā, it is used for... Just like in Manu-saṁhitā it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also hiṁsā, to get him a man hanged. But Manu-saṁhitā says that this kind of hiṁsā is necessary. Because the man who's committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, in his next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to śāstra, hiṁsā..., ahiṁsā is good, but when there is necessity, hiṁsā is also good.
Reporter: Yes. When there is right hiṁsā, then it becomes a right action.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: And therefore it is no more hiṁsā. But when the devilish...
Prabhupāda: And actually it is not hiṁsā.
Reporter: Actually it is not hiṁsā, exactly, but...
Prabhupāda: Just like father gives a slap.
Reporter: Yeah, it is not hiṁsā.
Prabhupāda: It is not hiṁsā.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, the hiṁsā, so-called hiṁsā, when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, that is not hiṁsā. That is love.
Reporter: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: Then it is hiṁsā.
Reporter: Yeah. Then it is hiṁsā. And I am against that hiṁsā which is not directed by Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right.
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are all living in, nuclear age where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Kṛṣṇa is...
Prabhupāda: That is hiṁsā.
Reporter: That is hiṁsā.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean...
Prabhupāda: That you have understood. That is my point.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That so-called hiṁsā, when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, is not hiṁsā.
Reporter: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's...
Prabhupāda: The same example as I gave, gave you. That when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not hiṁsā. It is doing good to him.
Reporter: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No... King is... King means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Kṛṣṇa's representative, nara-devatā. The king is supposed to act on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa's business is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām BG 4.8 .
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful.
Reporter: But today's kings...
Prabhupāda: Today's no... I'm speaking... Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not.
Reporter: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ BG 4.13 . Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This catur-varṇa. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa, whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as śūdra, but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa.
Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Isn't it?
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king, it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "Doctor, Medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa, he must act as brāhmaṇa. If one is claiming to be kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Now, what are the qualifications of brāhmaṇa, what are the qualifications of kṣatriya, they are there already in Bhagavad-gītā .
Reporter: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya(?). Sva-dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. By quality. Guṇa-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra, a vaiśya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaiśya. Vaiśya, it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam BG 18.44 . Now the vaiśyas, they are in the share market speculating.
Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaiśyas. (laughs) Exactly.
Prabhupāda: Industrialists. Industrialists means śūdras. So if they're śūdras, why they should claim as...
Reporter: Vaiśyas.
Prabhupāda: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.
Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas. Nehru. He is brāhmaṇa, but what did he do as a brāhmaṇa? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.
Reporter: Hm. When such... When such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the vaiśyas are no more following that duty...
Prabhupāda: This is, this is... This world is material world. And (aside:) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad. (desires woman guest to sit comfortably)
Devotee: Would you like a chair?
Woman guest: No, it's okay.
Reporter: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva-dharma, their true self...
Prabhupāda: That anyone can do at any moment, any moment.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupāda: Any moment.
Reporter: Yeah. But then what is the action for the... Practical action, practical...
Prabhupāda: Practical action... If you give up... If a brāhmaṇa gives up sva-dharma, then it becomes a varṇa-saṅkara.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Kula-dharma, what is that in the Bhagavad-gītā? Jāti-dharma, kula-dharma. So they produce varṇa-saṅkara. If one does not follow the jāti-dharma, the kula-dharma, then he comes to the category of varṇa-saṅkara. Saṅkaro narakāyaiva. So when... A person born in brāhmaṇa family not acting as a brāhmaṇa, he's varṇa-saṅkara. So when there are number of people from the varṇa-saṅkara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakāyaiva. Śaṅkaro narakāyaiva. What is that? Read that.
Pradyumna:
kula-kṣaye praṇaśyanti
kula-dharmāḥ sanātanāḥ
dharme naṣṭe kulaṁ kṛtsnam
adharmo 'bhibhavaty uta
"With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice."
adharmābhibhavāt kṛṣṇa
praduṣyanti kula-striyaḥ
strīṣu duṣṭāsu vārṣṇeya
jāyate varṇa-saṅkaraḥ
BG 1.40
Prabhupāda: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jāti-dharma, and creating varṇa-saṅkara... Varṇa-saṅkara, just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra. So the first saṁskāra is garbhādhāna. So in this Bhāgavata it is said by Nārada that as soon as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes śūdra. So who is observing the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra? Nobody.
Reporter: (laughs) Nobody.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra . No brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdra, or less than śūdra.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Pañcavān.(?) This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform that, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible, it is Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ SB 1.1.10 . They are very slow, they don't accept the right path... Just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam SB 1.1.10 . But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle. You know better than me.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So, if big, big scholars say, when Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī... BG 18.65. The scholars say, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. The leaders... Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ BG 18.65 . The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jāti-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varṇa-saṅkara.
Reporter: Yes. Everybody is varṇa-saṅkara.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the only remedy is
harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
CC Adi 17.21
This is the only, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the...
Reporter: Hm. But what...?
Prabhupāda: It is most scientific.
Reporter: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma-yoga, the action, to transform the society, bring back into the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, the yoga in its preliminary stage is karma-yoga. Yoga, yoga means connecting.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So karma, when you...
Reporter: Yoga karma sukhośanām. (?)
Prabhupāda: Akarma sukhośanām.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you are addicted to karma.
Reporter: Hm.
Prabhupāda: So if you bring bhakti, karma-miśra-bhakti, that is called karma-yoga. Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jñāna. When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jñāna-miśra-bhakti or jñāna-yoga. So, this things are there. Just like karma-yoga. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam BG 9.27 . This is karma-yoga. You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Kṛṣṇa says yat karoṣi, never mind, even if you are a thief. Your business is stealing-steal. Yat karoṣi means that includes everything. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu.
Reporter: Mā phaleṣu.
Prabhupāda: This is karma-yoga— when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Kṛṣṇa, that is karma-yoga.
Reporter: Hm. Yeah, but karmaṇy evādhikāras te...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: This is the, the point that...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to work.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: See?
Reporter: But... So... If our responsibility is to act without attachment for the result, I accept, I agree with it.
Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says that purottama manaḥ (?). The result must be there.
Reporter: Yes. But that should be...
Prabhupāda: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot...
Reporter: Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you must be giving to someone, to who is the perfect person who can take it. That is Kṛṣṇa.
Reporter: Hm. Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So yat karoṣi, that is the... Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it's bhakti-yoga, karma-yoga, whatever you...
Reporter: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: But Kṛṣṇa is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight?
Prabhupāda: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kurukṣetra.
Reporter: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our...
Devotee: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do?
Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa's representative will tell you. Kṛṣṇa is not there, but Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. So you have to ask the Kṛṣṇa's representative.
Reporter: So that's why I have come to you...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: ...to ask you.
Prabhupāda: If you think we are representative of Kṛṣṇa, that is good. (everyone laughs)
Reporter: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They're thinking, "And to become Kṛṣṇa's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult.
Reporter: It is not difficult.
Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa... Who is Kṛṣṇa's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, that
āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa
yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa
CC Madhya 7.128
You understand Bengali?
Reporter: No.
Prabhupāda: He says that "By My order, you become a guru." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ājñāya, order?" That yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa CC Madhya 7.128 ': "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken." That's all. What is the difficulty? If we speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, exactly... Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, without my interpretation, no nonsense. No. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya CC Madhya 7.128 . There is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that here is Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. There is no more superior person or authority than Kṛṣṇa. So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat CC Madhya 7.128 . We are saying the same thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja CC Madhya 7.128 . We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa."
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: "Don't bother with any other things." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru BG 18.65 . So we are teaching them, that always think of Kṛṣṇa, always become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, always offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. So what is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Kṛṣṇa's representative. Who is representative? What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's book Bhagavad-gītā and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. He speaks his own words of the authority of Kṛṣṇa.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad-gītā? How much, aḥ, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy-speak. Why you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā? But that is going on. They take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and speak their all nonsense things. They're not representative of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's representative is he who exactly speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Kṛṣṇa's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Kṛṣṇa.
Reporter: Hm. No, but... Can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja BG 18.66 . Kṛṣṇa is speaking in a context of a clear defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us.
Prabhupāda: Why not available?
Reporter: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya BG 18.66 .
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Now, dharma means occupation. Dharma is not translated as religion.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupāda: This is wrong translation. Dharma means occupation.
Reporter: Activity?
Prabhupāda: Activity, occupation.
Reporter: All activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it..."
Reporter: But He's saying sarva-dharmān parityajya ... BG 18.66.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: ...not sarva-karmān parityajya.
Prabhupāda: Dharmān means karmān. Dharma means activity. Just like a brāhmaṇa...
Reporter: But activity...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)—just a minute—how he can understand the brahma? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ BG 4.13 .
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So this dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, they're divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brāhmaṇa, he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam BG 18.42 . These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya-karma svabhāva-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brāhmaṇa' s executing the karma of brāhmaṇa, he's dharma.
Reporter: Yes, but then karmaṇy evādhikāras te...
Prabhupāda: Karmaṇi means that you are as you are...
Reporter: No, no (indistinct) evādhikāras te. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Anyway...
Reporter: 'Cause activity...
Prabhupāda: Dharma means karma. Dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam BG 18.42 .
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is karma. So brāhmaṇa's activity means brāhmaṇa. So that activity is karma. Ah? Yajana yājana paṭhana pāṭhana dāna pratigraha, these are brāhmaṇas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the kṣatriya's karma. These the brāhmaṇa's karma. These are the, eh, vaiśya's karma. These are the śūdra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa, you have to act as a brāhmaṇa.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: You are kṣatriya, you have to act as a kṣatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock offering maṅgala-ārati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then taking the class and taking prasādam, then going to outside for performing saṅkīrtana, to distributing books. All day, twenty-four hours karma. So therefore outsiders, they can not understand, that "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing, what kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti. They think bhakti means, just like "Close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that.
Reporter: Bhakti is the quality...
Prabhupāda: Yes, quality of karma. Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was giving the certificate- bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So everything is karma, whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity. What is the quality of it. Yes, how you can live without being active? You are living being. That's not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of our activity. That makes one karma-yogī, jñāna-yogī, dhyāna-yogī, bhakti-yogī. Everywhere there is karma. Without karma there is nothing.
Reporter: Hm. Can I ask you another...
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is called karma-miśra-bhakti . It is not unalloyed bhakti.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Unalloyed bhakti, there is no karma.
Reporter: There's no karma.
Prabhupāda: There's no karma. That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Prabhupāda: Ah, akarma.
Reporter: Sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: No, more than akarma.
Reporter: Sannyāsa?
Prabhupāda: More than a ... Sannyāsī is akarma, yes. Sannyāsī is also not akarma. Sannyāsa means... That is also described in Bhagavad-gītā. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ BG 6.1 . That is also karma. Kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ sa sannyāsī. "It is my duty"—on this principle when one works, he is sannyāsī. He does not work for himself, he works for Kṛṣṇa. And that is sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalam. Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalam. Kāryam: it is my duty. Kāryam. Karma karot... Karma karoti yaḥ. That is karma. Sa sannyāsī. So how you can say in sannyāsa there is no karma? Karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma? So when the end is Kṛṣṇa, to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā BG 6.1 .
Reporter: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma?
Prabhupāda: Akarma means that does not produce another karma . Or sometimes akarma means laziness.
Reporter: No, no, (laughs), in the sense of Gītā.
Prabhupāda: Karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam. So akarma means, that is bhaktyā. Akarma means, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra karma-bandhanaḥ. Anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ: when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma, that is karma. And when you act yajñārthe , for Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma, that is akarma. It does not produce, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām [Bs. 5.54] . In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. But then why there are three words, karma, vikarma, akarma? There are three.
Prabhupāda: That... Vikarma means..., karma means you act according to the injunction of the śāstra. That is karma. And vikarma means when you violate the injunction of the śāstra.
Devotee: Violate.
Prabhupāda: Violate.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the śāstra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities.
Reporter: Hm. That's the vikarma.
Prabhupāda: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the śāstra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. Karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. But generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities, no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūnā (Sanskrit). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the śāstras: illicit sex life. You can not indulge in sex life without marriage, that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the śāstra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma, you're becoming bound up being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma. Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām [Bs. 5.54] . Otherwise, beginning from ant, up to the Brahmā, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma.
Reporter: Hm. Vi ... But is it not like vasiṣṭhaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam. (?)
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Reporter: Vasiṣṭhān karmān vikarmān? "Vi—" is generally used as to... a sort of bhaktyā.(?) To give the quality of the karma, quality of the action. Like vijñānam, jñānaṁ vijñānam. Karmān vikarmān. So this a little, what is the root of the language? I don't...
Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is, jñānam means theoretical knowledge. And vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam . When your knowledge is applied practically in life, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña. Yajñād bhavati (indistinct). This things are there. So everyone should act for yajña. Yajñeśa . In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate CC Madhya 8.58 . If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, never mind, whatever you are. Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate.
Reporter: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam. So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varṇāśrama. This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varṇāśrama, that is animal society, everything is chaos. (some people talking aside)
Reporter: You want to ask anything?
Woman: No.
Guest: (aside:) (indistinct) ...Kṛṣṇa first, and then you know what to do.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So we are teaching this sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja BG 18.66 , just to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all.
Reporter: Yes, yes. But what happens that some people have a social dimension, social political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But then it seems to me—I'm just asking—that we, when we are emphasizing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social political dimension. So how to bring this...
Prabhupāda: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Kṛṣṇa did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking?
Reporter: No, no, I'm not saying Kṛṣṇa did not take... I'm just saying that it seems that He sometimes, it seems, that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough..., it is not clear enough—and I'm not saying it's not there but it's not clear enough—the social political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear.
Prabhupāda: It is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it is clear, it is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction, that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa, this is the business of kṣatriya. So politics is the business of the kṣatriya . So if you act according to Kṛṣṇa's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mālā and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a kṣatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaiśya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma. " You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa. But if you act whimsically, then what is your surrender? And why did you become a brāhmaṇa? Then there is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they do not abide by the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Still, they have become leaders. Then the whole thing is chaos.
Reporter: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now what we are, Ann and myself, we are publishing a magazine called Researchers.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Reporter: And John Temple(?) was here?
Devotee: John Temple(?) was here a few days ago, yes.
Prabhupāda: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him.
Reporter: Yes, he was editor before.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Reporter: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking-Mahādeva was also in it—but how we can bring this total understanding together? So when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first...
Prabhupāda: We are presenting...
Reporter: ...they understand the way of communication.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are asking all these students... When I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Kṛṣṇa." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs)
Reporter: (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupāda: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam CC Antya 20.12 . Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly.
Reporter: In order to clear your heart you have to chant.
Prabhupāda: That is it.
Reporter: Right.
Woman: What about meditating?
Prabhupāda: This is the best medicine, meditation.
Woman: What about the other kind?
Prabhupāda: When meditation, meditation, dhyāna, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That's another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) And there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear they also hear.
Woman: What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them.
Devotee: But Kṛṣṇa is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Kṛṣṇa's taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Woman: Oh, I see.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Kṛṣṇa is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (everyone laughs).
Reporter: No conflict.
Woman: I am not sure, I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean...
Prabhupāda: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. That's why Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They'll support: this killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that (?). They want to kill. That's all. That is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But if you do not follow, at the same time you say you are not Christian, there is conflict. It is clearly stated—I've asked so many Christians—that "Why do you kill?" Christ said "Thou shalt not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretations. That is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shalt not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses?
Woman: But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it?
Prabhupāda: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now. If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shalt not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it?
Reporter: True.
Prabhupāda: Just see Arjuna—you are talking of Arjuna—before fighting, before killing so many things, he getting clarified. Ah? (Sanskrit) Just see, "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill. (aside:) Hm. Read that.
Pradyumna:
yady apy ete na paśyanti
lobhopahata-cetasaḥ
kula-kṣaya-kṛtaṁ doṣaṁ
mitra-drohe ca pātakam
kathaṁ na jñeyam asmābhiḥ
pāpād asmān nivartitum
kula-kṣaya-kṛtaṁ doṣaṁ
prapaśyadbhir janārdana
BG 1.37-38
"O Janārdana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?"
Prabhupāda: He's thoroughly understanding-before killing. Not that "We have (indistinct) reason to kill." No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see. This is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church? Although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things. Why?
Reporter: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious...
Prabhupāda: Life.
Reporter: ...experience in life.
Prabhupāda: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how will you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply rubber-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets?
Reporter: Same as you were saying, Nehru was not a brāhmaṇa, but only because he was called brāhmaṇa. So...
Prabhupāda: No, why Nehru? Everyone.
Reporter: Everyone.
Prabhupāda: Everyone. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ.
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment. Kṛṣṇa says,
māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
BG 9.32
So even one is śūdra, we can give him deliverance by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a śūdra. But Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ, even if you are lower than the śūdra, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. If he accepts Kṛṣṇa, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become śūdra. There is remedy also.
Reporter: Even the śūdras can...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Lower than śūdra. Why śūdra? Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ SB 2.4.18 . They become purified if they accept the real representative of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ. Everything is there in the śāstras. If you take advantage of the benefit of the śāstras, everything can be remodeled, everything can be good. There is no cause for disappointment. But unfortunately they'll not agree. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya. Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti. One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative śāstra, he'll never get success, na siddhim avāpnoti. Na sukham: neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? It is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the śāstra. Now Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme authority by all the ācāryas. The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, Lord Caitanya...
Reporter: Śaṅkarācārya.
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya. They all accept Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam SB 1.3.28 . They accept it. So how can you defy all these ācāryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense.
Reporter: But all these ācāryas interpret in different, different ways.
Prabhupāda: No. No.
Reporter: No?
Prabhupāda: On the principle, they never... Just like Śaṅkarācārya and Rāmānujācārya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments on Bhagavad-gītā. Śaṅkarācārya, although he is impersonalist, he says nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt: Nārāyaṇa is beyond this cosmic manifestation; He's transcendental. That means he says He's person. Nārāyaṇa, as soon as Nārāyaṇa, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in the spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy, he started the philosophy, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā.
Reporter: Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā.
Prabhupāda: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithyā. Śaṅkarācārya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college, hospital... Never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithyā, then why should we bother all these things?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So who is following Śaṅkarācārya? And they say that "We are followers of Śaṅkarācārya." And they are engaged. Śaṅkarācārya follower means he must become first of all sannyāsī, then talk anything else. So who is taking, going to do that?
Reporter: And all those Śaṅkara Maṭha and Śaṅkarācārya's various places in India, don't live as jagat was mithyā . (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No, jagan mithyā... We don't say jagan mithyā .
Reporter: No.
Prabhupāda: We Vaiṣṇavas, why should I say jagan mithyā? If God is true, what is created by Him, that is also true. Because Kṛṣṇa says bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā BG 7.4 . Me, "My." So why should I take Kṛṣṇa's things as false? If Kṛṣṇa is true, His things are also true. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Kṛṣṇa, it can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That is karma-yoga, bhakti-yoga. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Just like here is a microphone in the tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say "No, no, we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot touch this material thing." We don't say that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything has connection with Kṛṣṇa, so why shall I call it as material? Parityāga. This is condemned by Rūpa Gosvāmī,
prāpañcikatayā buddhyā
hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ
mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo
vairāgyaṁ phalgu kathyate
The mumukṣu, the Shankarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world.
Reporter: He who wants liberation.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Mumukṣu.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mumukṣu. So this mumukṣu, they're giving up this material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari-sambandha.
Reporter: Yes, hari-sambandha.
Prabhupāda: They do not know this art.
Reporter: Kṛṣṇa connection, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Now people know only "French Connection," they're forgetting Kṛṣṇa connection. (laughs) Yes, very true.
Prabhupāda: But we see everything has got Kṛṣṇa connection. Therefore we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like you're talking about Kṛṣṇa, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Kṛṣṇa's service. Why should I give it up? Because the airplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. Every year I'm wandering all over the world, twice, thrice. Because if you use airplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why shall I give it up? It is mithyā. Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach, very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairāgya. We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk things under the tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree nobody will come to me. (everyone laughs) So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy.
anāsaktasya viṣayān
yathārham upayuñjataḥ
nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe
yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate
Yukta-vairāgya. After all, you have to practice vairāgya. Not under attachment. But in connection with Kṛṣṇa, nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithyā, how do they consider mithyā? Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithyā, but they are accepting it, under a different name—"Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital..." They're coming to the mithyā platform, under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithyā why you are starting a school?
Reporter: Yes. Only way is to sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not sannyāsī business. For starting school the government is there, public is there. Why you... That means brahma satyam you could not understand; you are coming to the school-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satyam. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So, people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this, give me some candana." "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma..., jagat is mithyā, why you are coming again to this mithyā platform?
Reporter: Yes, yes. So detachment is there.
Prabhupāda: Detachment, that is required.
Reporter: Anāsakta.
Prabhupāda: Yes, detachment and jñāna. Jñāna-vairāgya.
Reporter: Hm. The jñāna-vairāgya.
Prabhupāda: This is the real achievement of human life, that jñāna-vairāgya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ SB 1.2.7 . Ah? Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti yo... Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Just like these boys.
Reporter: Quick detachment.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Immediate...
Reporter: Instant, instant, āśu vairāgya.
Prabhupāda: Āśu vairāgya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke, I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (everyone laughs) This is vairāgya. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they've got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, the Western countries. How they have given up? Jñāna-vairāgya. Janayaty āśu.
Reporter: Vairāgya, yes.
Prabhupāda: Āśu, "very immediate."
Reporter: Hm. Instant.
Prabhupāda: Instant.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So bhakti-yoga is so powerful. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam... SB 1.2.7.
Reporter: Is this in the Gītā, in Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: No, in Bhāgavatam.
Reporter: Bhāgavatam, yes.
Prabhupāda: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up.
Reporter: But he was not in power or position.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi, "You have so much respect now, now you have got sva-rāja, you give up this business, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā, people will hear you." Before starting this movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter.
Reporter: But he was praying, he was going to pray Hare Kṛṣṇa. He was devotee.
Prabhupāda: He was for political emancipation.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that...
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: ...these politicians, they do not grow vairāgya, even up to the point of death.
Reporter: Yes, true.
Prabhupāda: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Pantha(?)... They stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither did they know that there is necessity of vairāgya. But Vedic philosophy says... All the ācāryas, they're all vairāgīs, either Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, they're all sannyāsīs. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All vairāgīs. Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairāgī. Even Lord Buddha, vairāgī. This is required, but where is the vairāgya? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairāgya. This is the first stage, vairāgya, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra SB 11.2.42 .
anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ
jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam
ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-
śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā
[Brs. 1.1.11]
That is sarva-dharmān parityajya. This is vairāgya.
Reporter: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya means vairāgya BG 18.66 .
Reporter: Yes, means vairāgya.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise we are embarrassed with so many dharmas. Social dharma, political dharma, national dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, śūdra-dharma, so many. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharma.
Reporter: All of them.
Prabhupāda: All give up. This is vairāgya . Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā SB 1.2.12 . Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. The bhakti-yoga means, jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya there must be. Can you find that verse?
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyate
SB 1.2.11
Pradyumna:
tac chraddadhānā munayo
jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā
paśyanty ātmani cātmānam...
SB 1.2.12
Prabhupāda: Paś... Tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna-vairāgya... Without jñāna-vairāgya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then?
Pradyumna: Paśyanty ātmani cātmānam...
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Pradyumna: ...bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā.
Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. Śruta-gṛhītayā. By hearing from authority. Śruta. Gṛhītayā. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. This is the process. Tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā, paśyanty ātmānam ātmani, śruta-gṛhītayā, bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā SB 1.2.12 . This is the process.
Reporter: By devotion, by listening you receive and see the self...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: ...within the self.
Prabhupāda: Yes, within the self.
Reporter: Ātmani ātmānam. [break]
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vāsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead..."
Prabhupāda: This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ BG 18.55 . Never says by jñāna or karma you'll get.
Reporter: Only bhakti, yes.
Prabhupāda: Go on.
Pradyumna: "...who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings. The karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogis and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalist are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person."
Reporter: Who are those three, jñānīs...?
Prabhupāda: Jñānīs, yogis...
Reporter: And karm...
Prabhupāda: Karmīs, jñānīs, yogis...
Reporter: And bhaktas.
Prabhupāda: So karmīs are not transcendentalists. They're materialists. But jñānīs, yogis and bhaktas, they're transcendentalists.
Reporter: Yeah. So jñānīs are third class.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānīs are...
Reporter: Why?
Prabhupāda: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.
Reporter: I see. They're intellectual.
Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā BG 18.54 . They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti.
Reporter: Hm. You feel the presence.
Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.
Reporter: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhakta?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee..., she was a devotee.
Reporter: Yes. She had this quality of presence.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Reporter: Yes. Direct dialogue.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king that, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī."
Reporter: Hm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper?
Reporter: Researchers.
Prabhupāda: Researchers.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That gentleman I talked to, he was also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because in the jñānīs, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā BG 18.54 . When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta BG 18.54 , and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām BG 18.54 . After being brahma-bhūta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas . Bhaktas, they have got three stages- kaniṣṭha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī, not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. It's a very high stage, too, each.
Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London?
Reporter: I have been on and off for two, three years.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Reporter: And I will stay two or three more years.
Prabhupāda: So, you are family man?
Reporter: Yes, this is my wife.
Prabhupāda: You're married here.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Children?
Reporter: One child.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Reporter: And we have called our child Mukti.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing, (everyone laughs). Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhukti-mukti-spṛhā yāvat piśācī hṛdi vartate. Manifested..., that so long the piśācī... Piśācī, you know?
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: The piśācī of bhukti and mukti . Bhukti means karmī's business, "I shall enjoy."
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as piśācī.
Reporter: Really?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Ah, piśācī means witch.
Prabhupāda: Bhukti-mukti-piśācī (etc.)
Reporter: "As long as...?"
Prabhupāda: "So long these two piśācīs are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti? "
Reporter: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti and then you can...
Prabhupāda: You have to go to mukti, and then bhakti. Just as I explained.
brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
BG 18.54
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupāda: So after being mukta. The bhakta is already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:
māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guṇān samatītyaitān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
BG 14.26
So a bhakta is already brahma-bhūta SB 4.30.20 . So he hasn't got to ask for mukti. He's already mukta. Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura says,
bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā bhagavan yadi syād
daivena naḥ phalati divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ
muktiḥ svayaṁ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān
and dharmārtha-kāma-gatayaḥ samaya-pratīkṣāḥ
Dharmārtha-kāma, this is karmī's position. And mokṣa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, My Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this this dharmārtha-kāma, t hey're at my command." Simply by bhakti . The people are after dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90 , but these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktiḥ svayaṁ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān dharmārtha-kāma-gatayaḥ samaya-pratīkṣāḥ.
Devotee: Prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate. (Guest and devotees talk in background.)
Reporter: (aside:) Please... But calling kṛṣṇārpaṇam, and calling mukti and bhukti piśācī is a rather strong expression. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Just try to understand what is the bhakta' s position. They can use strong word against mukti.
Reporter: Yes, yes, they can.
Prabhupāda: (laughs)
Reporter: The attachment is mukti, materialistic attachment, and bhukti... [break] I was very impressed with the account, how...
Prabhupāda: This will be New Gokula.
Reporter: New Gokula. Hm, hm, it's very good.
Prabhupāda: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvīpa, New Jagannātha Purī, New Dvārakā...
Pradyumna: New Gayā...
Prabhupāda: ...New Gayā, and this is the New Gokula. You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politicians of India, they wanted the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some, always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So... So far this movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical.
Reporter: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they're mūḍhas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ BG 7.15 . So India cannot be happy being guided by the duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ. It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi That "You are..." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times.
Reporter: Yes, yes. But that... What Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request?
Prabhupāda: No.
Reporter: No. Hm.
Prabhupāda: But it did not go to his hand-hands of his secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister."
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Reporter: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved?
Prabhupāda: That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to... Village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal—to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. I agree.
Prabhupāda: The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principles—from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that.
Devotee: (to guests:) Some kṣīra?
Reporter: Oh!
Prabhupāda: That's all? Don't get more?
Reporter: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: They actually, by destroying the Manchester millionaires, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmadabad millionaires. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one rupee per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair.
Reporter: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth—one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. Now same thing for thirty rupees.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmadabad capitalists. That's all.
Reporter: Hm. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire.
Reporter: (laughs) Yes. Very true.
Prabhupāda: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness.
Reporter: Quite true. And therefore, nothing is working.
Prabhupāda: No. (pause)
Reporter: I'm not going by car, as you said. (everyone laughs)
Prabhupāda: Are you not plucking your hairs?
Reporter: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair.
Devotee: The whole head, you pull your...?
Reporter: Whole head, yes. It's an extreme form of a...
Devotee: Austerity.
Reporter: Ah?
Devotee: It's an austerity.
Reporter: Yes. And then I came to... I left it, and came to Benares, and...
Prabhupāda: So when you joined this (indistinct-Sarboddha?) movement? At Benares?
Reporter: Yes. I was meet... I met Vinoba Bhave, and...
Prabhupāda: He's still living?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy?
Reporter: His philosophy is... He is a bhak..., a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes, in the village, and not going to the city. This is his principle, on the economy scale. And on the spiritual end, religious, he's a brahma-vidyā. He's seeking brahma-vidyā. And he has in Padnab(?) Brahma-vidya Mandir.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Reporter: So he is... He is a follower of Śaṅkarācārya.
Prabhupāda: Mukti, bhukti.
Reporter: Ah?
Prabhupāda: Mukti.
Reporter: Mukti, yes.
Prabhupāda: Piśācī.
Reporter: Hm? (everyone laughs)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Bhukti-mukti-piśācī.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms." Bhukti -ism and mukti -ism. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up all these isms. Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love.
Reporter: Yes. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Ācchā.
Reporter: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (end)