740223 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740223MW-BOMBAY - February 23, 1974 - 33:47 Minutes

Prabhupāda: This is also very good, good in this sense, that they do not eat without restriction. There is some restriction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To sacrifice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That if you want to eat meat and chicken, then you first of all sacrifice before the deity. So at least they'll be restricted from eating meat purchased from slaughterhouse. But this rascal civilization, one side they're advertising, "Stop cruelty to animals," another side they're opening unrestricted slaughterhouse. Just see. One side they're allowing marriage of woman every week, another side contraception. Just see their contradiction. (japa) (break) . . . there is animal sacrifice in the church. Is there any such pre . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jews, they have got.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That was one of the things that Jesus was against.

Prabhupāda: Shocked. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That the Jews were sacrificing animals in the temple. (pause)

Nitāi: Excuse me.

Prabhupāda: Don't come very near.

Nitāi: I'm sorry. (break)

Prabhupāda: No, no. People will know our position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your Guru Mahārāja was also very outspoken?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh, yes. (pause) (break) . . . that demonstration, " Hoh! Hoh! " They do not . . .?

Indian man (1): Yes. Only two men is coming. Two only coming.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two of them do it here, but the big group does it on Chowpatty.

Indian man (1): Chowpatty Way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they live in Woodlands, Warden Road. So they go to Chowpatty.

Indian man (1): They got also own flat, I think.

Indian man (2): No, they are not staying in that same flat where . . . (indistinct) . . . stayed.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Indian man (2): They have their own apartment. They had, and they are paying for that. They are working . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . big animals.

Dr. Patel: I don't think he would say that, so you could . . . must have just joking. He's really highly religious man. Yogendra Bhai is the most religious man in the whole group. Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean he actually said that?

Dr. Patel: No, he acts, but he's . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right.

Dr. Patel: There is no question of action. We also act. How much we are religious, only God knows.

Prabhupāda: (japa) (break) . . . there is there. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya (Brahma-stotra).

Dr. Patel: Up to now, I think this is the best part I have run across. One of the best parts. And that, that particular līlā of Kṛṣṇa is the most thrilling one. No?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And when Brahmā saw Kṛṣṇa with four . . . and Viṣṇu with four hands and all, all, even in cows and boys and calves and everything, then it was the height of the whole philosophy. You have read it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: He? He? No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I, I . . .

Dr. Patel: But you must have read it in English, in those two volumes of Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I read it in Sanskrit, in directly. And there, in real, original Sanskrit it is wonderful. You get the real rasa of it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you . . . do you mean to say that I was reading it indirectly?

Dr. Patel: No, no. Indirectly. It is indirect. The real Sanskrit is different. He will tell you. Any other language than Sanskrit . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, there is no difference.

Dr. Patel: . . . will not get that rasa.

Prabhupāda: There is no difference.

Dr. Patel: O rasa. Rasa ne hi aayega (That rasa will not come.)

Prabhupāda: No, no, rasa . . . Rasa jo lene wala he usko toh pehle dekha gaya. (The rasa has already been revealed to the one who is to receive it.)

Dr. Patel: Real rasa comes in Sanskrit. I read it twice in Gujarati, but I . . . I was not able to get that pleasure when I read it in Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Viprād dvi-ṣaḍ-guṇa-yutād aravinda-nābha-pādāravinda-vimukhāt śvapacaṁ variṣṭham. (SB 7.9.10)

Dr. Patel: Those two books of Kṛṣṇa you have written, it's from this only.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: The tenth skandha, no?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I mean, I read all those books which you have published. Now more books you must send, because I have finished. I am a voracious reader. I finish all of them.

Prabhupāda: Viprād dvi-ṣaḍ-guṇa-yutāt. A Brāhmaṇa, having twelve brahminical qualifications . . . viprād dvi-ṣaḍ-guṇa-yutād aravinda-nābha-pādāravinda-vimukhāt śvapacaṁ variṣṭham. A Brāhmaṇa, well learned, well scholar, and just brahminical principles, strictly following, but if he is not a devotee, from him, one caṇḍāla is better. Śvapacaṁ variṣṭham. Why? Now, because that caṇḍāla has—caṇḍāla who is devotee caṇḍāla, not ordinary caṇḍāla—he has dedicated his mind, his body, his activities for the service of the Lord. Therefore he not only is purified, but he purifies the whole family, whereas a qualified Brāhmin, if he is not a devotee, he cannot purify himself, what to speak of purifying the family.

Dr. Patel: In the śruti also they mention that all those yogīs and philosophers and, and other developed spiritually, if they have not, they have not been able to really realize what Kṛṣṇa or God is unless they have become bhaktas. But in this only it comes.

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata is . . . (indistinct) 

Dr. Patel: In this particular part.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Viprād dvi-ṣaḍ-guṇa . . .

Dr. Patel: I thought Bhāgavata was a book of stories, so I was not reading. Really. I am so truthful to you. That is, I read all, I myself, more than half a dozen times all the, mean, twelve Upaniṣad, but I said: "Bhāgavata why?"

Prabhupāda: No, Bhāgavata is . . .

Dr. Patel: But I read it in Gujarati . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata, in the beginning it is said, nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam (SB 1.1.3).

Dr. Patel: That first śloka you explained to me. First śloka.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Dr. Patel: First.

Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya ya . . . (SB 1.1.1).

Dr. Patel: Ah! Janmādy asya. It becomes very difficult for me to understand.

Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. No. Because the question . . . it is the explanation of Brahma-sūtra. So the Brahma-sūtra, the beginning is athāto brahma jijñāsā. "What about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth?" The next verse is, immediately, janmādy asya yataḥ: "The Supreme Absolute Truth is that . . ."

Dr. Patel: ". . . from which everything is born."

Prabhupāda: ". . . everything is born." Now that Bhāgavata begins the answer: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1).

Dr. Patel: From the second line of the sūtras.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Answer Brahma-sūtra's question. The answer is Bhāgavata: janmādy asya yataḥ. Then what is that janmādy asya yataḥ? And he says, Vyāsadeva says, anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ. That . . . the . . . abhijñaḥ. That the Absolute Truth, from whom everything has emanated, He knows everything directly and indirectly. He knows. Because He's abhijñaḥ.

Dr. Patel: He is knowing everything.

Prabhupāda: Knowing every . . . knows everything.

Dr. Patel: Knowing everything. Knowing everything.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Dr. Patel: Abhijñaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Because . . .

Dr. Patel: All-down knowing, all-down knowing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So He's not a stone. Just like some philosopher says there was a chunk, and creation came from that. So here Bhāgavata says: "No. The origin of creation, He's a person—abhijñaḥ. And He knows everything, directly and indirectly." Directly, I know this is my body, but indirectly, I do not know what is going on in this body. Therefore we go to physician that, "Please tell me what is the ailments in my body." So I do not know what is the cause. But the original Absolute Truth, He knows everything, directly and indirectly. Therefore He is abhijñaḥ. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). In this way concludes: satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi.

Dr. Patel: Dhīmahi. Yes. Krishna Shankara Shastri has written hundred pages on this explanation you know. And I was lost in it, on this one single śloka. He has, about the last dhīmahi, is also a part of Gāyatrī-mantra.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: What this kuhakam, kuhakam?

Prabhupāda: Kuhakam means this material world is kuhakam.

Dr. Patel: Kuhakam.

Prabhupāda: No, kuhakam means illusion, magic. Something magician showing—so much money. Just like your this, one bābā, what is . . .? Satya . . .? He creates some gold.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Satya Sai.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct Hindi) . . . Babu bhai tumne dekha tha (Babu bhai, did you see that?) A magician in Gujarat, some Muslim magician, he would ask . . . not ask for a ticket . . . (indistinct) 

Indian man (3): He would not . . .? He would not . . .?

Dr. Patel: Nahi Nahi. (No. No.)

Indian man (3): Mohammad Chhel.

Dr. Patel: Mohammad Chhel. There was one man called Mohammad Chhel. And when the ticket collector comes and asks for the ticket he says, "All right, take this," and there would be a heap of tickets, railway tickets.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So a magician can do . . .

Dr. Patel: A magician he was. He would stop that train. Stand behind and stop the train. Stop. He must . . . people must have got some siddhis by . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, the yogic siddhi, aṣṭa-siddhi, aṇimā, laghimā . . .

Dr. Patel: No, but that, this aṇimā, laghimā, you get, the sāttvika fellows. But these, these people who are . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone can get. It is a practice mechanical.

Dr. Patel: But wrong, wrong . . .

Prabhupāda: Mechanical.

Dr. Patel: So the vartas also get it, these śakti-vartas. They get this by tantric yoga. I can't still understand how tantras, by following, I mean, drawing particular figures and writing down those figures, you can get powers. This is very common in Bengal side, this tantra. No? I read a book on tantra by Sir Arthur Avalon, and he described so wonderful of powers come by this and that. I don't know whether it is a fact or not.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is materialism. Anyone who is after power, that is materialism.

Dr. Patel: I could not believe in it. How could it come?

Prabhupāda: It can come.

Dr. Patel: Not so.

Prabhupāda: Now, this is also tantra. Just like nowadays, they were flying Sputnik, and from here controlling everything. Millions and millions of miles . . .

Dr. Patel: But there is a science behind it, no?

Prabhupāda: So that is also a kind of science, subtle science.

Dr. Patel: This writing, writing letters, two and two, and, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are subtle sciences. These are gross sciences. There are subtle science also. Just like now mechanically you are flying. But there is science . . . anything. I can fly with this stick. That is possible. Ākāśa-patana. There is a science, ākāśa-patana. Kapota-vāyu. Kapota-vāyu. Now, you can train the pigeons, and it will . . . you'll fly in the sky.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vāyu.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And a carpet also?

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) 

Dr. Patel: You must have read the carpet-flying in India.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I used to read such stories when I was a young boy of ten years.

Prabhupāda: Actually, the aeroplanes mentioned in the śāstra, they are not machine. Mantra.

Dr. Patel: Mantra.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because this puśpak-vimāna, it could land anywhere . . .

Indian man (3): puśpak-vimāna also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that was . . .

Dr. Patel: The puśpak-vimāna was with the . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . flying in mantra.

Dr. Patel: Not, it was not . . .

Prabhupāda: Now scientific improvement has been done, but that is on the gross material platform.

Dr. Patel: Spiritually, they must be working.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not spiritual. That is also subtle. Just like mind, the speed of mind. The mind is material. By mind speed, you can . . . just imagine. You are here. Immediately, within a second, you go to Calcutta.

Dr. Patel: Because you think of the thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: First going is mind going.

Prabhupāda: So this is the mind. Similarly mental, then intellectual . . . you are going?

Dr. Patel: No, no. You are going ahead. We have to come to that . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mind is also material. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ kham. Khaṁ manaḥ (BG 7.4).

Dr. Patel: Khaṁ manaḥ eva ca.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all material.

Dr. Patel: But . . . but even in, even in . . .

Prabhupāda: The so-called jñānīs, they are on the mental platform. Therefore they are also materialists. But therefore Brahmā . . . you'll find in that Brahma-stotra, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya: "Give up this attempt to reach the Supreme by mental speculation." Jñāne prayāsam uda . . . namanta eva: "Be submissive." Namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām: "Just hear from devotee the news of the message of God, Kṛṣṇa." That is the process recommended. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. Sthāne sthitāḥ. You haven't got to change your place. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). You hear from the realized soul and try to apply in your practical life. Then, one day, although God is unconquerable, He will be conquered by you. This is recommendation by Brahmā.

Dr. Patel: I heard sometimes in bhakti-yoga that you have to become pure, you have got to leave your body consciousness and become soul conscious . . .

Prabhupāda: That is soul consciousness.

Dr. Patel: In the other conscious, and then . . .

Prabhupāda: Body consciousness is mental speculation.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say. You must go beyond that.

Prabhupāda: Ah. This is the gross body and subtle body. So when these jñānīs, they think that they have become liberated, but they are entrapped by the subtle body. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya . . .

Dr. Patel: These yogīs . . .

Prabhupāda: Then they are also, the same thing: gross material thing.

Dr. Patel: The yoga means to join yourself. Your self means not body, not even mind, but your soul, to the higher soul of . . . that means the God. That is real yoga. And that is as good as bhakti. Or you call it yoga, anything. Yoga and bhakti comes to same thing then.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakti is real yoga. Others are farce. Yoginām api sarveṣām (BG 6.47). The bhakti is real yoga. That is real yoga. And this is farce.

Dr. Patel: Mad-gatenāntarātmanā.

Prabhupāda: Ah. That is real yoga.

Dr. Patel: Antarātmanā.

Prabhupāda: Antarātmanā means beyond his mind and intelligence . . .

Dr. Patel: From within yourself.

Prabhupāda: Yoginām api sarve . . . so within yourself, if one thinks, antara mad-gatena, Kṛṣṇa, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, that is first-class yogī. But the so-called yogīs, they want to become Kṛṣṇa, "Now I have become God."

Dr. Patel: But then I don't think they say they are becoming Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: Their disciples say. As any disciple . . .

Prabhupāda: These all rascals! Kick these disciple. Why . . . where from the disciple comes? From the rascals.

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

Prabhupāda: Eh? These rascals come . . . if the . . . janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). If the rascals are produced, he's rascal.

Dr. Patel: But you are a guru. I am your disciple.

Prabhupāda: So you see they are mine. They are not violating . . .

Dr. Patel: I have not . . . if I have taken you as a God, then I can get my knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Dr. Patel: If I take you as a man, I have not got it.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. If God produces rascals, then he's not . . . he's a rascal.

Dr. Patel: The guru has got to be taken as God.

Prabhupāda: That is another . . . guru has taken . . . not that God, he's God only.

Dr. Patel: Guru is not talk, God.

Prabhupāda: He's . . . just like your representative. Suppose if I have got you some business. There is a call, "If you love me, you love my dog." It is not the dog is you. Dog is different. But if you love somebody, you pat sometimes, "Oh . . ." the dog. Just to satisfy him. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. This is stated. If you satisfy guru, then God is satisfied. That does not mean guru is God.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I don't say I think guru . . .

Prabhupāda: Guru . . .

Dr. Patel: I don't understand, and you also don't understand me. I mean to say that disciples have got to take guru as God, and not this body as God. His ātmā is guru, and ātmā is God. So guru in that way is God.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not . . .

Dr. Patel: That is what I think.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: And I don't think I am wrong.

Prabhupāda: No, why God . . .? Why do you make . . .? Why do you distinguish between guru's ātmā and guru's body?

Dr. Patel: But the body . . . but the body's not guru.

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda.

Dr. Patel: Even if you say guru is body . . .

Prabhupāda: They make also Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's inside different.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's body is different from your body and my body. Kṛṣṇa's body is spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you make a . . . once you say that guru is equal to Kṛṣṇa, and again Kṛṣṇa's body and Kṛṣṇa is not different, but guru's body and guru's soul is different.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: No. That's not right.

Dr. Patel: Ātmā is, ātmā is guru . . .

Prabhupāda: That's not right. Please note it. If you compare the guru is God, then you should compare similarity.

Dr. Patel: Similarity, this body and Kṛṣṇa's body are different.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. That is an ignorance. You do not know.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's body is spiritual. His, any part of His body . . .

Prabhupāda: The Māyāvādīs do that, that Kṛṣṇa . . .

Dr. Patel: He can hear, He can hear by His eye and hear by His finger. And satisfy anybody by His anything.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. I mean to say that sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. When you accept guru equal to Kṛṣṇa, then you cannot make such distinction.

Dr. Patel: Bodily distinction . . .

Prabhupāda: Then why bodily or anything?

Dr. Patel: It is very important.

Prabhupāda: It is the . . . no, no, no. They cannot make, say distinc . . .

Dr. Patel: The body, this body . . .

Prabhupāda: Cinmaya . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . becomes ill, and he has got to come to a doctor sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Body, that . . . if . . .

Dr. Patel: But that, Kṛṣṇa's body is not that body.

Prabhupāda: Not only . . . not only guru. Anyone who is spiritually advanced, he has no more material body.

Dr. Patel: That's . . . from higher standpoint of view.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you . . . if the guru is in the lower standard, then how he becomes guru?

Dr. Patel: No, that guru who knows that he has no real material body, he's beyond the body consciousness, that is right.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Even the material body's there . . .

Dr. Patel: Guru thinks so, but what about this . . .

Prabhupāda: Even the material body is there, still he's to be taken as spiritual. That is the philosophy. The example is given, just like you have got the iron stick. You put it in the fire, and it becomes warm. And when it is red hot, it is no more iron stick, it is fire. Do you accept this?

Dr. Patel: I accept it.

Prabhupāda: Then? Similarly, one who is always merged in Kṛṣṇa thought, his body is not material.

Dr. Patel: That way you say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is the way.

Dr. Patel: Now I understand.

Prabhupāda: Because his material body is not working. That is stopped. He's working simply spiritually. Therefore his body is spiritual. The same example: it has become so hot, red hot, that it is no more working as iron rod—it is working as fire.

Dr. Patel: Because it burns anybody who touches it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So Guru also does the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: He electrifies anybody who touches him. So we touch your feet. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . therefore he has no material body.

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: It is aparādha. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ (Padma Purāṇa). This is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Arcye śilā-dhīr . . . just like everyone knows . . . the atheist class will say: "Oh, here is a stone statue, and these rascals are worshiping as Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: That is wrong.

Prabhupāda: So everyone knows that is a stone statue. But we are so fool that we are worshiping a stone statue? Therefore this is offense. Arcye śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara . . . (Padma Purāṇa) Similarly Guru. Although he's working, moving just like ordinary human being, one should not consider that he's ordinary human being. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ.

Dr. Patel: That is how the Guru can be accepted by . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone knows that, "Here is a stone statue." That so many hundred and thousands of people are coming to worship that stone statue? Somebody can argue. The atheist will argue. And when . . . so . . . we have got millions of temples, especially in South India and Jagannātha Purī, and many where . . . so are they going, spending so much money to worship a statue? That is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Guru should not be considered in that way, if he's actually Guru.

Dr. Patel: Guru, Guru's śaktipad on his disciple comes from . . .

Prabhupāda: The same.

Dr. Patel: . . . either way. Where the śiṣya draws his power and guru gives it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but if he has no power, how he can give?

Dr. Patel: But . . . that is what I say. So we have to take guru as God.

Prabhupāda: So therefore guru as God, not distinction that guru is so much God, and he is so much God.

Dr. Patel: I don't say distinction. I . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you said that distinction of body, distinction . . .

Dr. Patel: I did not say that. You have to understood it differently.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not . . . it is the guru principle we are talking. That is about guru.

Dr. Patel: That is what I want to learn from you.

Prabhupāda: I am not guru. I am . . . I am . . . this is . . . the guru has no material body. Just like the statue is not material, similarly, guru's body is not material.

Dr. Patel: You say that though gurus may appear as material body, you are not to take it as a material body. Say that way. Because we are little . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not to take it, it is actually. If it is material body, then how they are getting benefits, if it is a material body? The same example: if it is iron rod, how it is burning? It is fire. When there is burning, you must assume it is fire. Why do you take, "Oh, it is iron rod"? Phalena paricīyate. Phalena paricīyate. By the result you have to . . . therefore it is said, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. We, we have no direct contact with Bhagavān, but Guru, being representative of Bhagavān, if we satisfy Guru, then Bhagavān . . . identical. Therefore it is warned: vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ (Padma Purāṇa). Similarly, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Here is a European Vaiṣṇava, he's Indian Vaiṣṇava, it is Brāhmin Vaiṣṇava and Śūdra Vaiṣṇava." No. That is also, that is also offense.

Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Vaiṣṇava is Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, to consider guru's body as material, that is also wrong.

Dr. Patel: I read somewhere that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Some . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . you have got to take guru as God from this point of view . . .

Prabhupāda: That . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . that he's ātmā. You are worshiping God . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is Māyāvāda.

Dr. Patel: Whatever vāda it is, I mean, let us go this . . .

Prabhupāda: The Māyāvāda says: "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is God within you." The Dr. Radhakrishnan said, the rascal, "Kṛṣṇa is within. The outside is material body." You have read that.

Dr. Patel: There is no within and without . . . I have not read that. There is no within and without so far God is concerned. God is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: And similarly, similarly, guru also—no within, no without. Otherwise how we can say sākṣād-dharitvena? Directly. If you make distinction, how he can be directly?

Dr. Patel: Within, without is . . . (indistinct) 

Prabhupāda: Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. But he has attained that position on account of his being very, very dear to God. Because doing God's work. Eh? God says: "Surrender unto Me." Guru is preaching. That is real guru. He's preaching, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say, "Surrender unto Me."

Dr. Patel: No guru says so.

Prabhupāda: All rascals says. All rascals say.

Dr. Patel: But rascals are not gurus.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The gurus, so-called gurus, there are. These Māyāvādīs, all they say, "I am God."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: "Let me now have rāsa dance. Send your children. Send your wife, send your daughter. We'll dance." These are all rascals, Māyāvādīs. Māyāvādī-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). This is the statement of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. As soon as one hears the statement of Māyāvādī, he's doomed, he's finished. He's finished.

Dr. Patel: You have been bracketing so many good people like that, with the bad, and I feel strongly . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is good people?! Where is good people?!

Dr. Patel: . . . about this philosophy of yours.

Prabhupāda: All rascals! Let them come. Let them come. Yes! I shall kick on their face! I am so strong. Where is good man?

Dr. Patel: You see . . .

Prabhupāda: I have already kicked already that . . . what is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bala Yogi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ask me in Hong Kong. And he's a dog. In public meeting.

Dr. Patel: I meet with all these fellows. We talk of general philosophy.

Prabhupāda: So we have got some discrimination. Our is only point: If anybody is a Māyāvādī, he's a dog. Kick him on his face, that's all.

Dr. Patel: Māyāvādī means those people who . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Māyāvādī means Māyāvādī. That's all. No explanation.

Dr. Patel: What do you mean by Māyāvāda?

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī means who thinks like that . . .

Dr. Patel: All right, now, that is right.

Prabhupāda: . . . "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is different from His body." That is Māyāvādī.

Dr. Patel: There is no body of Kṛṣṇa. Whole thing is body.

Prabhupāda: So Māyāvādī does not know that.

Dr. Patel: And those people . . .

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī. They think that Kṛṣṇa comes with a " māyā body." Therefore they are Māyāvādīs.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa has control over the Māyāvādīs.

Prabhupāda: There, you'll find, you'll find in Dr. Radhakrishnan's book, the same thing.

Dr. Patel: I never did read it.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: I have not read it.

Prabhupāda: You should have studied, because he's advertised as big scholar.

Dr. Patel: I studied the Puranian philosophy by Huxley. I think somebody must know, he was very good. He's stressed bhakti-mārga. Huxley, Julius Huxley.

Prabhupāda: Well, if he's a bhakti-mārga, then he would not have eulogized Ramakrishna.

Dr. Patel: He is wonderful.

Prabhupāda: He has eulogized Ramakrishna.

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

Prabhupāda: Yes, he has eulogized Ramakrishna, this Huxley. You know that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I didn't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ramakrishna was a first-class Māyāvādī.

Dr. Patel: Which Ramakrishna?

Prabhupāda: These Ramakrishna Mission.

Dr. Patel: You are a guru. So I don't want to contradict. I am going. Toh main yaha nahi bol raha hu. (Now I will not speak.)

Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . then you have got some selection of your own.

Dr. Patel: I have no selection.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all.

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

Prabhupāda: I have to tell the truth. You may like or not like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I have to say the truth. I am saying all over the world.

Dr. Patel: There may be a few, but all are not like that.

Prabhupāda: He was a pākkā Māyāvādī.

Dr. Patel: That may be a truth . . .

Prabhupāda: Still repeating. Repeating.

Dr. Patel: Let us go off.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was a pākkā Māyāvādī. Just like . . . just see that he said that he is a worshiper of Goddess Kālī. Is it not?

Dr. Patel: Ha barabar. (Yes, correct.)

Prabhupāda: Eh? And he became God, by worshiping Kālī. Just see how much Māyāvādī he is. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20): "Anyone who is worshiping other demigods, his intelligence is lost." Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. And this man says that worshiping a demigod, Goddess Kālī, he became God. Just see. How much great Māyāvādī he is. Where is the śāstra . . . where is in the śāstra, Vedic śāstra, that one becomes God by worshiping Goddess Kālī?

Dr. Patel: Brahma-vid brahma eva bhavati.

Prabhupāda: Is there any evidence? Then may . . .

Dr. Patel: Brahma-vid brahma eva bhavati.

Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is another thing. Just like I gave the example: if you associate with fire, you also become fire. That is another thing, brahma-vid. But here is no question of brahma-vid. Ignorance. Ignorance. Because brahma-vid, the Brahman, Supreme Brahman, says that, "Those who are worshiper of demigods, they have lost their intelligence." So how he becomes . . .? A man who has lost his intelligence, how he can become brahma-vid? Brahma-vid is so easy thing? It is possible for a man who has lost his intelligence and he becomes brahma-vid?

Dr. Patel: Brahma-vid cannot be recognized by intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: You have got to go beyond intelligence, mind and everything.

Prabhupāda: Well, we are beyond intelligence, beyond all rascals. We are beyond.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore we say. Therefore . . . (break) (end)