751223 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

751223MW-BOMBAY - December 23, 1975 - 54:59 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . when he has gone so high, does it mean he has gone to sun planet, moon planet? (break) . . . that you have offered some room here?

Saurabha: No, well there was . . . on the floor space there is facility for a doctor, so he saw that on the plan, so he proposed that "Well, I'm a dentist, and I can give the devotees free service."

Prabhupāda: No, there will be no medical service in the building.

Saurabha: Ācchā.

Prabhupāda: Raat mein tum pehra deta hai. kya, to kaun deta hai? to kutta kyon bhokta hai? kutta kidhar se aata hai? usko dekhna chahiye. Aaye to usko maar ke bhaga do. (In the night do you patrol? Then who patrols? Why does the dog bark? Where does the dog come from? He must see—if the dog comes then hit it and chase it away.) These quarters there is no such building, huh? Our, this pattern?

Saurabha: No. Not in Bombay. Nowhere in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: (chuckling) That's very good.

Harikeśa: There will be after this, though.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: After this there will be . . .

Devotee: Imitation. (Prabhupāda laughs)

Lokanātha: There should not be any medical service in the building, new building, so what about there should be any other place on the land, or they should not . . .?

Prabhupāda: That we shall do conveniently. It is not very urgent. When there is spare room—then. Medical service is to cure the material disease, not this temporary headache and stomach ache. There are so many medical services for these things, but where is the medical service for curing bhava-roga, material disease? That is wanted. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Medical service does not give any guarantee that there will be no more disease. Our service is guarantee there will be no more birth, death, old age and disease. That is the difference. (pause) Mauritius, I was suffering so much from dental pain. I never went to the dentist—I invented my medicine, and it cured me. (laughter)

Harikeśa: Now everybody else is using it here.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: I taught them all, and they're all using it now. Or they will all be using it.

Prabhupāda: They like it?

Harikeśa: Oh, yes.

Lokanātha: The best. Toothpaste.

Prabhupāda: The only defect is that all the ingredients are not very finely powdered. If it is very finely powdered, then it will be very nice.

Lokanātha: You are perfect in all respects. You are even doctor of all doctors . . .

Prabhupāda: I am not doctor, but I created many doctors. (break) (to Dr. Patel) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Aap kaise hain Delhi mein? (Why are you in Delhi?)

Dr. Patel: Humlog to hameshaa accha hai magar, (We are always fine but,) I have decided not to come today with you, because I was driven away yesterday morning by your men. I came to look after you.

Prabhupāda: How is that?

Dr. Patel: God only knows. The way they behaved so very badly with three of us. And you were not sleeping even. Because I wanted to give you the prescription, so I ran from my house.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Haṁsadūta: No, I was not . . .

Dr. Patel: No, you were not. He was there.

Hari-śauri: No, I was there. (to Prabhupāda) You had just taken rest in the bedroom, so I thought it best not to disturb you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I was taking rest.

Dr. Patel: I wrote out the prescription and gave it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I got it. Huh?

Lokanātha: So you can come?

Prabhupāda: So I was resting.

Dr. Patel: No, I won't come. I would a hundred percent . . . (indistinct) . . . today. Thank you very much. I don't believe in . . . (indistinct) . . . (leaves)

Prabhupāda: So he wanted to see me?

Hari-śauri: He brought two of his friends in as well. I thought he was going to create such a commotion, and you had just taken rest, so I said better to let you rest and not disturb you.

Indian devotee: He complains sometimes that . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (japa)

Lokanatha: All over the world, the Ratha-yātrā attracts thousands of people, but in Bombay we'll not have Jagannātha deities. So how could we have Ratha-yātrā and attract people? . . . (indistinct) . . . gives the correction.

Prabhupāda: . . . complete our temple, then we can . . . (break)

Girirāja: A question was raised about Lord Rāma worshiping Śiva.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Girirāja: At one of the programs, somebody raised the question that we cited that Lord Śiva is worshiping Kṛṣṇa, that he is a Vaiṣṇava. So that person replied that Lord Rāma also worshiped Śiva. So he wanted to know the explanation.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Lokanātha: You explained yesterday.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes Kṛṣṇa is chastised by Mother Yaśodā. So how is that? The Supreme Personality of Godhead is being chastised by Mother Yaśodā?

Girirāja: He likes to be chastised. It's part of the relationship.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, He likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father? They say the Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa, there is no such incidence as Rāmacandra worships Śiva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here?

Harikeśa: That later-on Rāmāyaṇa has caused some havoc.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: That later-on interpretation has caused a disturbance?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the Śaivaites, they want to make Lord Śiva the exalted, Supreme Person. In South India there is a good propaganda for this. That is always going on.

Lokanātha: When Lord Śiva says in Purāṇas that mukti-pradapaḥ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇu . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Lokanātha: Purāṇa, the same Lord Śiva says there is no other liberator besides Viṣṇu.

Devotee: . . . engagement, one devotee commented that the reason that Lord Rāma worshiped Lord Śiva was because He wanted to kill Rāvaṇa and Rāvaṇa was a devotee of Śiva, so Lord Rāma worshiped Śiva in that respect.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?

Harikeśa: He said because Lord Śiva was, ah, excuse me, Rāvaṇa was a devotee of Lord Śiva, that in order that Lord Rāmacandra could kill Rāvaṇa, He worshiped Śiva.

Kīrtanānanda: He wanted to take permission of him, so they say.

Harikeśa: Oh, permission.

Kīrtanānanda: They wanted to take . . . Rāma wanted to take permission from Śiva . . .

Prabhupāda: So Śiva is so rascal that he gave permission? That means they are trying to prove Śiva is a rascal. (devotees laugh) Because he gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use of his . . . of one becoming Śiva's devotee? If such a rascal that one can take his permission to kill his devotee, so what is the use of becoming a devotee of such a rascal? Huh?

Harikeśa: He protected Bāṇāsura.

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? That means that proving that Śiva is a rascal. He gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use? Then nobody should become Śiva's devotee. That is the conclusion. Because he gives permission to somebody else to kill his devotee. They are trying to prove Lord Śiva is a rascal. What do you think? Huh? If I want your permission, "Please give me your permission, I shall kill your son," and if you say: "Yes, I give my permission," then are you not a rascal? By this example they are making Lord Śiva a rascal, that he has no common sense even.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Now, if this proposition is there, that Lord Śiva gives permission for killing his devotee, then who will become his devotee? Huh? Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No sane man will become his devotee. How they manufacture foolish statements, just see. Any commonsense man will immediately say: "Then Śiva is a rascal; he cannot give protection to his devotee." What do you think? Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: Of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda, does one have to give protection to their devotee if they break the law? Just like if you have a child, and if he murders someone, isn't he supposed to be punished? So if someone goes against the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even if he's your devotee, shouldn't Śiva concur?

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing. This proposal, that because Lord Rāmacandra approached Lord Śiva to kill Rāvaṇa, and he gave permission, although Rāvaṇa was his great devotee. Then what is the use of becoming devotee of Lord Śiva? He gives permission. Huh? Is that very reasonable proposal? If I ask your permission that I shall kill your son, will you give permission? No. Then? So if Lord Śiva gives permission to Lord Rāmacandra, "Yes, You can kill Rāvaṇa," then what is the use of becoming his devotee?

Harikeśa: I think Dr. Patel would say that it's not fair, you have fired the opposition.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Harikeśa: It's not fair. You have completely destroyed the opposition. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of fight.

Prabhupāda: The actual fact is that Lord Śiva did not give permission, but he did not go to protect Rāvaṇa, because he knew that it was impossible to give him protection. That is summarized in Bengali, rākhe kṛṣṇa māre ke, māre kṛṣṇa rākhe ke. If Kṛṣṇa kills somebody, wants to kill somebody, nobody can give him protection. That is the conclusion. And if Kṛṣṇa protects somebody, nobody can kill him. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Huh? He was protected by Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva. Who can kill?

Kīrtanānanda: Why did Lord Śiva try to protect Bāṇāsura?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: Didn't Lord Śiva try to protect Bāṇāsura?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You must try. When your son is in danger, you must try. That is natural. That is not uncommon. You can save or not save, that is different thing. But it is you duty, if somebody is under your protection, you must try to save him, even at the risk of your life. That is real protector.

Lokanātha: Do you have plans, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to comment on Rāmāyaṇa in future?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? First of all finish my Bhāgavatam, then we shall talk of other things.

Indian man: Lord Brahmā took away the cows and the cowherd boys that Kṛṣṇa was playing with. At that time Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself just to . . . but Balarama was not knowing for about a year or so that these cows are all Kṛṣṇa expansions. Because the gopīs were so much affectionate towards Kṛṣṇa formerly. Now he started . . . He doubted that gopīs are not that much affectionate towards Kṛṣṇa because these cowherds and, ah, they are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa only, so he was not . . . that is what one . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is called, they were playing the role of human being. (pause)

Indian man: . . . we would be nearing the portion where that Bāṇa is there. I told Girirāja Prabhu, when you were sick, that fever is there, you were having fever, so I . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I had no fever.

Indian man: When you went to Vṛndāvana? Some . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Indian man: So I am telling my wife, she said that you read that Bhāgavatam, where that Bāṇa is there, that Śiva means having . . . producing jvārā, fever. So Viṣṇujvārā is cold only, so that Viṣṇujvārā will bring down the fever.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Indian man: So you were just reading more Bhāgavatam only, when you are sick. Anybody who is suffering from fever means you read such-and-such a portion, so it should come down.

Prabhupāda: No, Viṣṇu should not be utilized for curing your fever. (laughter) That is not bhakti. That is business.

Indian man: (laughs) So you are always reaching from bhakti point. That is too high for mundane people to reach.

Prabhupāda: That is bhakti, high, highest. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). If you have real bhakti, then you can understand Viṣṇu. To know Viṣṇu—avan manasā-gocara, it is very difficult.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahareṣu

kaścit yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti . . .

(BG 7.3)

To understand Viṣṇu—very, very difficult. And . . . if, but you can understand Viṣṇu by bhakti. So bhakti is so easy thing.

Kīrtanānanda: How about if a disciple wants to use the help of Viṣṇu for the spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: A disciple wants to take the aid of Viṣṇu for serving the spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: Hah. That is nice. That is for curing Viṣṇu's representative. When we were in danger, there was so much obstruction for constructing the temple, and we prayed to Kṛṣṇa that it should stopped. We prayed to Kṛṣṇa, "Please give Your protection." That is for Viṣṇu's purpose.

(break) . . . Bhagavad-gītā, arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur (BG 7.16): when one is in distress, he comes to Kṛṣṇa. So that is not pure bhakti. Pure bhakti means "I shall not take a farthing from Kṛṣṇa, I shall give everything to Kṛṣṇa." That is pure bhakti. "I shall not take any return from Viṣṇu." Prahlāda Mahārāja says that, "I am not a merchant, that for my service I take some return for it." No. But sometimes when, since we are not pure devotees, we have no other alternative than to beg Kṛṣṇa for some material benefit. That is also good. They have said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ, they're pious. Although they are not pure devotee, but they are pious. But the duṣkṛtinaḥ, they do not approach Him. That is the difference.

'catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ

'sukṛtino'rjuna

arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur

jñānī ca bharatarṣabhā

(BG 7.16)

They are also good, pious. And one who does not go to Viṣṇu for any reason, they are most sinful. Here, although he goes to Viṣṇu for some material benefit, he is pious. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Those who are impious, sinful, they do not go. (comes to a part of the beach covered by waves) So I will have to jump like this?

Harikeśa: No. We made the wrong turn. (break)

Devotee: I can go first. (break)

Lokanātha: . . . window glass.

Prabhupāda: That is called māyā. (laughter) The light is here, but it appears light is there. This is called māyā. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. The real world is the spiritual world, and here it is simply a reflection. But we are taking this is real world, and spiritual, there is no spiritual world. Yathā bhāsaḥ tathā tamo. So Śaṅkarācārya said that this world is false, jagat mithyā. So, but brahma satya, he gave the same information. But we are taking this jagat satya, and there is no spiritual world. This is the defect. Just like . . . (aside) That's all right . . . the mirage. The foolish animal goes after the water in the desert, but there is no water. He is bewildered. But that does not mean there is no water anywhere else. There is water, but this mirage water is false. Similarly, this material world is false, but that does not mean there is no spiritual world. The water is somewhere else. That we do not know. But we are after this mirage, water in the desert. Jaanvar doudta hai udhar pani hai doudte-doudte khatam ho jayega. is prakar idhar sukh hai daudte-daudte khatam. (An animal runs towards the water thinking water is there but running, running—it is over. Like here is happiness so running, running—life is over.) (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yatra tri-sargo'mṛṣā. Tejo vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayo yatra tri-sargo'mṛṣā. Dhāmnā svena sadā nirasta-kuhakaṁ satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). Vyāsadeva offers his respect to the real truth, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi, where there is no mirage, there is no false water—real water. And Kṛṣṇa gives the same information: yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "That is My real abode, where if you go you don't come back. And so long you are in this material world, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), you accept one body, suffer or enjoy, there is no enjoyment, suffering, and again accept another body," tathā dehāntara praptir (BG 2.13). This is going on. Therefore they do not understand when you speak of the other world. But if you speak of this world, that "I'll make you happy in this world," thousands and millions will follow you. And as soon as you say that "I shall make you happy in the next world," "These are all nonsense, crazy fellow!"

Devotee: They think it's too imaginary.

Harikeśa: Post-dated cheque.

Prabhupāda: And . . . not post-dated. That is real cheque, but he does not know. He refuses real cheque. That is not post-dated cheque, it is real cheque.

Harikeśa: Well, they might say that we're always . . .

Prabhupāda: They might say, that is another thing.

Indian man: Isi aadmi ko baat karne ke liye bolta hai . . . (This man is allowed to talk . . .)

Prabhupāda: Accha admi bolta hai marne ke baad kya hoga kaun janta hai. Abhi jo hai uska hisab-kitab karo. (An intelligent man says: "Who knows what happens after death. whatever is there in the present, we have to account for it.")

Indian man: Abhi to bolta hai maja karo. (It says enjoy now.)

Prabhupāda: Andha yathandair guniya mana. Kya maza kya karega. maza ka jo bandobust karta hai usko rehne dega yahan? ek din laat marke bhaga dega bhaag yahan se, maza ho gaya. (What will you enjoy? One who makes arrangements to be happy, will He allow him to stay here? One day He will kick him out, get out from here, enjoyment is over.)

Lokanātha: . . . body is finished, everything is finished.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Lokanātha: When body is finished, everything is finished, so why think of . . .

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. You were a child; that body is finished. So you have got a different body. But this simple truth they do not understand; that is their folly. Namaskar. (Greetings.) If the body is finished, then why you were a child, you have become a young man? Body is finished, but not everything finished; everything is there. Only the body is finished. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This is explained. So when the body is finished, that does not mean that you are finished. You have to accept another body. That is real truth, and it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, not any so-called scientist. The Supreme Person says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. What do they say about this statement of Kṛṣṇa, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, that when your body is finished you are not finished?

Lokanātha: Well, they won't accept Kṛṣṇa either.

Prabhupāda: Then, how rascal they are.

Indian man: (indistinct) . . . you know there is soul.

Prabhupāda: Hah.

Indian man: Body is finished and ātmā is emerged. So, what . . . why the ātmā suffers next generation for the deeds done by the body in this life?

Prabhupāda: Because ātmā is continuation.

Indian man: Continuation, I understand. Suppose my body doing something . . .

Prabhupāda: Not body is doing, you are doing.

Indian man: I am doing, that means . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore you must suffer.

Indian man: . . . my ātmā is not doing. Atma is . . .

Prabhupāda: Ātmā is doing, therefore ātmā is suffering. You are not doing. When the ātmā is born out of your body, body does not do anything. Then . . .

Indian man: All right. Ātmā . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: Ātmā is amāra. So it is eternal; it has no death, no life, no . . . it has got a birth, it has got a death that only are superfluous, say only for consolation. But actually it does not die. Body dies, or body destroyed, and that is fire or that is buried. But when I do something good or bad in this life, so I am doing.

Prabhupāda: You are doing, and therefore you must suffer.

Indian man: But that is not ātmā. Why ātmā is . . .

Prabhupāda: They do not know.

Indian man (2): (indistinct) . . . even it said ātmā.

Girirāja: You are the ātmā.

Indian man: Not ātmā.

Prabhupāda: You do not understand that you are ātmā. Aham brahmasmi. That you do not understand. You think "I am body." That is nonsense.

Indian man: Well, that point is not clear in my mind.

Prabhupāda: Why not clear? That means your intelligence is not clear.

Indian man: Naturally, but listen what I say.

Prabhupāda: So the ātmā, that is stated in the Bhāgavata, antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ (BG 2.18). Nityasya uktāḥ. Nityasyoktāḥ, śarīriṇaḥ. Śarīriṇaḥ means the soul who possesses this body, he is nitya. So you have to enjoy or suffer the reaction of your activities. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). You have got a type of body on account of your activities.

Indian man: But how ātmā . . . suppose I am doing some sins? So how ātmā can control it? Suffering . . .

Prabhupāda: You are doing sin, you have to control.

Kīrtanānanda: What does the Lord mean in Bhagavad-gītā when He says that only the modes of material nature act . . .

Prabhupāda: You are committing sinful life, so you have to rectify yourself.

Indian man: He is the controller of my body. Ātmā is the controller of my . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: So if I am doing sins, you mean to say, that ātmā is doing because that is his responsibility.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: If manager does . . . if the worker does something wrong, the manager is indirectly responsible.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Why do you say manager? You are doing.

Indian man: Yes, but suppose . . .

Prabhupāda: No, "I suppose." That is not suppose. You are doing sinful activities or pious activities. It is you, ātmā, jīvātmā.

Indian man: So that means jīvātmā, he is . . .

Prabhupāda: Responsible.

Indian man: . . . responsible for any good or bad deeds for my life?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: Because he's controller of the body. So he's responsible.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bodies only means . . . suppose you are motorcar, you are driving this way or that way. The motorcar is not driving you. You are driving the motorcar.

Indian man: Huh-huh.

Kīrtanānanda: What does it mean in the Gītā, Prabhupāda, when Kṛṣṇa says only the modes of material nature are acting?

Prabhupāda: Material nature means because you are in diseased condition in this material world, therefore according to the infection. Just like you have got body, and he has got body. You are suffering from typhoid; he is suffering from smallpox. So you have contaminated the typhoid germs, and he has contaminated smallpox. So the . . . this body is after all material body, so there is infection of material nature, tri-guṇātmaka. Therefore you have to transcend this position of tri-guṇātmaka. Then you are cured.

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicārena

bhakti-yogena yah sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

braham-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

If you transcend the infection of the three modes of material nature, then you are safe. So long you do not transcend, just like so long we infect some disease, then you must suffer. But if you don't infect, you'll not suffer. That is up to you. There is disease, cholera disease; why shall I go there? Why shall I infect my body in that way? That is up to you. If you don't take precaution, then you will suffer. (aside) Jaya.

Śrīdhara: The soul is pure, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, but he is covered by the material body. The material body is infected by the modes of material nature. Therefore, although he is pure, he is subjected. Just like when there is motor accident, you are separate from the motor, but you have to suffer. Everyone knows that I am separate from motorcar, but why I am suffering? Because you have got a bad car, you must suffer.

Śrīdhara: That may be because I'm an imperfect driver.

Prabhupāda: So you are imperfect; therefore this movement is to make you perfect. If you are not imperfect, then why the movement is there? To make you perfect. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramaṁ gataḥ. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). So long you are imperfect, you must suffer in this material world. And as soon as you become perfect, you go back to home, back to . . . because you are imperfect, therefore this movement is necessary. Medicine is there for the patient, not for the person in perfect health. Mūdho' yaṁ nābhijānāti mām eva param avyayam (BG 7.25). These rascals, they do not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is necessary. Para upakāra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says para upa . . . para upakāra. You know yourself what is Kṛṣṇa, and distribute this knowledge. That is wanted. That is entrusted to the Indians.

bhārata bhūmite manuṣya janma hoilā jāra

janma sārthaka kari kara para upakāra

(CC Adi 9.41)

This is wanted.

Śrīdhara: So the soul is the doer and the non-doer of the activities, sinful activities, or, as the soul is pure, so . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you are condemned to death by the judgment of the high court, so who is the doer? The high-court judge, or you? Huh? Is the high-court judge your enemy, that he has condemned you to death? He has given the judgment; you cannot say he is the doer. You are the doer. So ātmā and Paramātmā. You do, and Paramātmā gives judgment. Daiva-netreṇa. By the superior judgment. This is the position.

Lokanātha: But it is said all the actions are carried out by the three modes of material nature, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lokanātha: . . . the ātmā is just the non-doer. Ātmā doesn't do anything.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He has put himself to the shelter of material nature. As soon as you come to India or you come to some other country, you must be under the laws of that country. So why do you come here? Kṛṣṇa bhuliyā jīva bhoga vañcha kare (Prema-vivarta). You have come to the material world to enjoy, so you must suffer also.

Kīrtanānanda: We've seen the example used, Prabhupāda, that just like a man, if he goes to sleep at night and he dreams that he has committed some murder or some . . .

Prabhupāda: So why does he dream?

Kīrtanānanda: . . . he enjoys or suffers the activities, but actually he is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, but why he dreams like that? One is dreaming like that, another is dreaming a different way. That is due to his practice. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Śrīdhara: People say then the soul must be impure. If the soul cannot . . .

Prabhupāda: Impure in this sense: that he has come in touch with the impure. And if he becomes untouched with the impure, then he is no more impure. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatityaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

Immediately he becomes pure. Kṛṣṇa says:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayīṣyāmi . . .

(BG 18.66)

"I shall make you immediately pure." Why don't you do that? You want to remain impure, so you must suffer.

Kīrtanānanda: Therefore everything is situated on desire.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. We are desiring to enjoy the sense enjoyment of material world, then you remain impure. So long you shall desire sense enjoy . . . therefore bhakti means anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11), make zero all your desires, material desires. Desire cannot be zero. Purify your desires. Desire how to serve Kṛṣṇa. Then it is pure. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You singing daily in the morning, āra nā koriho mane āśā. Do you know the meaning?

Lokanātha: Yes. "No other desires."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Āra nā . . . guru mukha padma vakhya cittete koriya aikyā āra nā koriho mane āśā. Bās. That is purification. A guru says something, and I'll do something else, then you are desiring something, then you are not pure. Therefore daily you are saying, āra nā koriho mane āśā. Don't desire anything. Then you remain pure. As soon as you decide that, "I shall serve only Kṛṣṇa," you become purified, immediately. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayīṣyāmi (BG 18.66). You are delivered from all sinful reaction, then how you are impure? Now keep that position, pure position, then your life is successful. Āra nā koriho mane āśā. And if you plan something, (chuckles) "I am very expert in planning; I shall do this, I shall do that, not serve Kṛṣṇa," then you remain impure.

Indian man (2): Prabhupāda, London mein . . . (In London . . .)

Prabhupāda: Oh, you live in London?

Indian lady: Yes.

Prabhupāda: When you are come here?

Indian lady: I came two weeks ago.

Prabhupāda: So you don't go to our temple in London?

Indian lady: Yes, I do. In . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: We have got two temples—one in the city and one in Letchmore.

Indian lady: I went in the suburb one.

Prabhupāda: The big . . . big temple.

Indian lady: Biggest one, yes. They keep cows and all that. I went there.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. To go, when you go back again, you go.

Indian lady: Yes, I will . . .

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) "bhajate mam ananya-bhāk", that is required. Āra-nā koriho mane. Ananya-bhāk, no diversion of attention. (break)

Indian man (3): . . . you see, I am now trying to learn in this time something, and I find that by doing bhakti, ah, what you call pūjā, saguṇa pūjā, whenever I come to your place, instead of seeing the Kṛṣṇa mūrti, I always see liṅgam, Śiva liṅgam. Why this phenomena going on?

Prabhupāda: You are a great devotee of Lord Śiva, so that's all right.

Indian man (3): But I have already, seeing the . . . my parents may be doing. I have not done much except knowing only a few lines of the . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You remain a devotee of Lord Śiva. There is no harm.

Indian man (3): And when I have been doing some other saguṇa pūjā, another is seen always.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (3): Suppose I am doing . . .

Prabhupāda: Many, many . . .

Indian man (3): . . . Śaṇkara pure pūjā, then I am seeing, er, Devi pūjā. Like that it is happening. Secondly, so how to go to nirguṇa state? That is my difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Sa guṇān sama . . .

Indian man (3): And whenever I am praying with closed eyes, I see something, but with opened eyes I don't see anything.

Prabhupāda: That is given in the Bhagavad-gītā. That you have to . . . sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). Sa guṇan, samatītya. So you have to adopt this means, then you will.

Indian man (3): How to from sa guṇa I do not know.

Prabhupāda: Māṁ ca yo' vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena ya sevate (BG 14.26).

Indian man (3): Sanskrit, I don't know much Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who worships Kṛṣṇa, avyabhicāreṇa, without any change, he becomes nirguṇa.

Indian man (3): So saguṇa is necessary for going to nirguṇa?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Indian man (3): Saguṇa is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, not necessary. But if you don't worship unflinchingly Kṛṣṇa, then you remain in the saguṇa platform.

Indian man (3): Hmm, I see.

Prabhupāda: Here it is clearly said, sa gunān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). So you have to adopt the means; then you become nirguṇa. And if you don't adopt, then you remain saguṇa.

Indian man (3): Yes, and I can come to you and just, you explain me what is the way . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). Sa-guṇan . . . saguṇa . . .

Indian man (3): Which śloka from Gītā . . . it is from Gītā? Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is Ninth Chapter.

Indian man (3): Then I'll read it again and see if whether I can follow something. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa clearly says, sa guṇān, sa guṇān samatītya, sama upena atitya, perfectly transcending. This is the process.

Indian man (3): I see. We cannot do with the closed eyes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (3): With open eyes, why we cannot do the prayers and this bhakti-yoga? What is the . . .

Prabhupāda: For the disturbed mind. Those who are settled up, they can see always, open or closed. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). One who has attained that stage, love of God, he'll see every, every moment.

Indian man (3): Even with naked eyes?

Prabhupāda: Always.

Indian man (3): Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. When you love somebody, a small child, don't you see always? Huh? Don't you see? Huh? When you see the child's little sock, immediately you see the child. The shoes, immediately you see the . . . why? Because you are in love with the child. So that stage you have to come, in love with God, then you will see always, twenty-four hours, sadaiva. Sadaiva means twenty-four hours. You see, and you always remain in nirguṇa stage, and always see.

Indian man (3): But in that case, sir, material duties, they are forgotten.

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (3): Then how can you avoid that, because conflict takes place.

Prabhupāda: No, it will be . . . there will be no more material duty. When you wash the shoes of your son, that is love, that is not a shoe washer. You don't remain a shoe washer; you remain in love with your child. Hah? A mother takes care of the child, washes when he passes stool, that does not mean she becomes maṭharāṇī (sweeper woman). Maṭharāṇī is material. But when the mother out of love washes the child, she is not maṭharāṇī, she is Rādhārāṇī. (laughter) And if you conclude, "Ah, she is washing the stool of the son. She is maṭharānī," that is your mistake. She remains Rādhārāṇī. Just like Mother Yaśodā is binding Kṛṣṇa, that does not mean that His supremacy is lost. The Mother Yaśodā is binding; He still remains the supreme. Therefore Mother Yaśodā became exhausted to try to bind Him. (laughs) And when Kṛṣṇa saw that "My mother is perspiring now. She is exhausted. All right, let Me agree to be bound up by her." (pause) That's not a fact; otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone who is engaged in My devotional service, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26)." So this is a mistake to say that devotional service is saguṇa. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . huh? These are one gentleman came to talk with you?

Saurabha: The . . . about the apartment?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (end)