750512 - Conversation - Perth

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

750512R1-PERTH - May 12, 1975 - 32:52 Minutes

(Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy)

Amogha: (to guest) I understood that you approach psychiatry, psychology, from the point of Eastern philosophy?

Prabhupāda: So, what can I do for you?

Psychiatrist: I have no question.

Prabhupāda: He has no question?

Amogha: No.

Prabhupāda: Then, what shall I say?

Amogha: (laughs) I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He had told me that he has read your Bhagavad-gītā. He has a copy. Do you have any questions about the Bhagavad-gītā? Has he understood it?

Psychiatrist: I just wished to meet you.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Amogha: He says he just wished to meet you. (pause) Perhaps I should read a verse. Should I read a verse?

Prabhupāda: No. Our viewpoint is that in the material world, who has accepted this material body—anyone, but we specially take the human society—they require treatment, everyone. Everyone is mentally diseased, and therefore he is unhappy. Everyone. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād-guṇa (SB 5.18.12). Anyone who has no sense of God consciousness, he is diseased mentally. He requires treatment. The whole human society, especially at the present moment, they have given up God consciousness. They are not interested. That is their disease. And everyone requires treatment.

So the whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the mass treatment of the materialistic persons who are mentally diseased. That is our proposition. It is . . . in India there was a case: A man committed murder, and he pleaded in the court that . . . his pleader, his lawyer, pleaded that he was mad at that time. We also accept unless one becomes mad, one cannot commit murder or suicide. So the Civil Surgeon was brought to give evidence whether this man is actually mad. The Civil Surgeon said that, "So far my experience is concerned—I have treated so many persons—in my opinion, everyone is mad. So if on account of madness one should be excused from the law, then it is Your Honor's discretion. But so far I have studied, more or less, everyone is mad." Similarly, our study is that unless one is mad, he cannot remain in this material world.

So everyone is mentally diseased, and they are concocting their ideas, different ideas. And they are overlapping—my idea, your idea, overlapping. Therefore there is clash, unhappiness, violence, individually, socially, familywise, nationwise. This is going on. Therefore everyone requires a treatment, psychiatrist's treatment. And the best treatment is to induce a person to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, a person who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, or God conscious, he is basically a madman and requires treatment. (pause) Ghostly-haunted man . . . you have experienced ghostly-haunted man?

Amogha: In one center was a ghost. In St. Kilda the devotees used to think there was a ghost, but not a man who was called . . .

Prabhupāda: There is ghost. And sometimes ghost attacks a man. Because he has no material body, he wants to act through other's body. So the man who is attacked, he forgets himself, and he speaks and walks according to the dictation of the ghost. That is called ghostly-haunted man.

Śrutakīrti: What is the significance of . . . what is this?

Prabhupāda: He talks nonsense. Suppose his father comes before him, he calls him by ill names, like that. He talks nonsense. So anyone who is too much materially affected, he also talks nonsense. Anartha upāsamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). The treatment is bhakti-yoga. That we are teaching. Without any exception, we accept everyone a patient for psychiatric treatment. (pause) He has this book?

Psychiatrist: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then all other books we can show him.

Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, does the soul, the ghost, enter into the other man's body? The soul is occupying one body, and the ghost is another soul, does he enter that body? There's two souls in the one body?

Prabhupāda: Not exactly enters, but he catches the body. But because the ghost has no gross body—he has got his subtle body: mind, intelligence, and ego—you cannot see him, how he has attacked that body. You cannot see the body of mind, intelligence. You know I have got my mind; I know you have got your mind. But you do not see my mind, I do not see your mind. So ghost is within the subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. So with that subtle body, he attacks the man, but you cannot see. He does not enter into him. The enter is the soul within the body. Therefore sometimes ghost is walking in the room. We cannot see him. But he takes away something. We see that the thing is going away. (laughter) Because you cannot see his gross body. And because he hasn't got gross body, he can move very swiftly. Now he is here; he can go ten miles away immediately. But there is ghost. And they attack specially woman.

Amogha: Is that because the women are weaker?

Prabhupāda: No. Woman is attractive for any man, even in ghostly life. The other day, who was telling that a big poet of India, he said that, "God's most wonderful creation is woman's body"?

Śrutakīrti: I think Brahmānanda Mahārāja mentioned?

Paramahaṁsa: Acyutānanda Swami.

Śrutakīrti: Acyutānanda.

Prabhupāda: So everyone is attracted with the woman's body. In your country I have seen the advertisement, "bottomless," "topless . . ." That is the material attraction. Everyone is in this material world on account of attachment. And similarly, for woman, the man's body is beautiful. So in this way both of them are attached to one another. That is the basic principle of material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). They become attached. And account of sex life, they become more attached, and therefore both of them remain almost perpetually in this material world, and to satisfy different desires they transmigrate from one body to another. And on account of accepting this material body, there is always miserable condition. Therefore everyone requires the psychiatric treatment so that the mind may be transferred from matter to spirit soul. Then you'll be cured. The disease is of the mind.

Harāv abhaktasy kuto mahād-guṇa mano-rathena. Everyone is riding on the chariot of mind, and the mind is taking him here and there. And the yoga practice is also treatment. This is also yoga, bhakti-yoga, and this ordinary haṭha-yoga, that is also treatment of the mind. Treatment of mind means controlling the senses. Yoga indriya-samyamaḥ. Mind is the leader of the senses. So if the treatment of the mind is done properly, then the senses work properly. The example is the madman. Because the madman's mind is not controlled, he is acting in a way, people say: "Here is a madman." So everyone is more or less a madman in this material world, or, in other words, you can say anyone who is in the material world, he is a madman; he requires treatment. Just like anyone who is in the prison house, it is to be accepted that he is a criminal. Without any study, without any exception, we can accept all the prisoners as criminals.

(break) . . . gradually appreciate. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ (CC Antya 20.12). This treatment is, in the beginning, just cleansing the mirror of the heart. That is the treatment. Just like a mirror, when it is overcast with dust, it requires cleansing. So the mental mirror is covered with material dust, so it has to be cleansed. That is the treatment. And when it is cleansed, you can see your real face in the mirror. Similarly, as soon as our heart disease, contaminated by the modes of material nature, is cleansed, you can understand what is your real position. That is the success of psychiatric treatment. One comes to know, "What I am." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul. I am not this body." That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). He becomes immediately happy. And happiness means na śocati na kāṅkṣati: "He does not lament, neither he desires."

Our present disease is we hanker after things which we do not possess, and when that thing is lost, we lament. So hankering and lamenting. So when one is cleansed in the heart, he has no more hankering or desire. This is the symptom. And samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: "Then he becomes equal to everyone." "Everyone" means every living being, man and animal, trees, plants, lower or higher. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Then he enters into the sphere of devotional service. This is the symptom. Then he is perfectly in his original position. Then he is happy. Just like a diseased man, so long the disease is there, he is unhappy; and as soon as the disease is cured, he will be happy. So this material disease, as soon as it is cured, one becomes happy, because he is, by constitution, spiritual being. People have no knowledge even, his . . . even about his spiritual identity. Therefore they are unhappy.

(pause) (to Indian boy guest) So if you forget what you have written, (chuckles) then?

Amogha: Do you remember what you wrote about, which part? About Kṛṣṇa's birth?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's birth? But in Bhagavad-gītā there is no.

Amogha: Maybe he means . . .

Indian boy: I've read that in . . . (indistinct) . . . and in other books in Hindi.

Amogha: Well he said.

Paramahaṁsa: He read in some other . . .

Indian boy: I've been reading about Kṛṣṇa.

Amogha: He says he's read many books about Kṛṣṇa in Hindi also. But maybe he means Chapter Four, verse six, where Kṛṣṇa says He comes again in this world in His original form. Do you have any questions about Kṛṣṇa?

Indian boy: Actually, I want to know how could I get more involved in, say, in religion, like a . . . want to become a true devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa, you know, sacrifice myself . . . (indistinct) . . . how could I be one of pure devotee?

Amogha: He wants to know how to become a pure devotee.

Prabhupāda: You live with us and you will become pure devotee. They are pure devotees. You live with them and do whatever they are doing, their examples, and you will become pure devotee. Just like in a workshop, if you admit yourself without any knowledge, if you work with the workshop man, gradually you will learn how to work. It is not difficult. Formerly this was the custom in India, that when somebody sends his son to any workshop or any shopkeeper without any pay, so gradually he learns. And the master says: "Now I engage you with some pay." That is the way. Sataṁ prasaṅgāt. By living with devotees, you'll learn devotion. So if you are serious, you are welcome. You can live with us and behave according to the other devotees. Then he's a . . .

Indian boy: Is it possible that I live on my own and still be a devotee?

Prabhupāda: That will take long time. That, also, if you follow the regulative principles . . . it is difficult, little. But easier method is to live with the devotees, because the situation and atmosphere in your home is different from devotion. So it is not very helpful. You have got other members in the family?

Indian boy: Yes, there is . . .

Prabhupāda: So if you want to do something, they may not like it. So that is impediment. But if you live with the devotees, then you learn quickly the art. You are Indian?

Indian boy: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are coming?

Indian boy: I was born in New Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Oh. How you came here?

Indian boy: Well, my parents moved to Fiji Islands, and I was with them. And then we all came to Australia.

Prabhupāda: She is also Indian?

Indian boy: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are?

Indian girl: My parents were born in India, and I was brought up in Fiji.

Prabhupāda: Now they are in Fiji?

Indian girl: No.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Indian girl: My mother's in Australia and my father's in Fiji.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So where are your parents? Where they are, your parents?

Indian girl: They are separated.

Śrutakīrti: She says they're separated. One lives in Sydney and one lives in Fiji.

Amogha: They're separated. One lives in Sydney and one lives in Fiji.

Prabhupāda: In Fiji there are many Indians.

Indian boy: Yes, there are.

Prabhupāda: The language is in Hindi?

Indian boy: Hindi.

Prabhupāda: Fiji?

Indian boy: Indians speak Hindi, Fijians they speak Fijian.

Prabhupāda: Fijians, they are Europeans? No.

Paramahaṁsa: No.

Prabhupāda: They are natives.

Indian boy: Natives.

Prabhupāda: They are civilized? No.

Indian boy: I suppose they are. (laughs) Many of them. Those who live a long time near Lautoka.

Amogha: He says those who live in the cities, they are civilized. But others, they live in the villages, not very civilized. You have any other question?

Indian boy: No.

Prabhupāda: They have questions? No. (pause) You have got desire to become a devotee?

Indian boy: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: You have a desire to become devotee?

Indian boy: Yes, I have.

Prabhupāda: So that is very good desire, fulfill it. What you are doing here?

Indian boy: Actually, I've got three friends from work in Sydney, and we started traveling around the country, and we ended up in Perth with no money. So we are here from last four months trying to get a job and save some money and go back to Sydney.

Prabhupāda: So not getting job?

Indian boy: Jobs are very scarce in Perth. We've been trying very hard, but so far, it's no go.

Prabhupāda: (to devotees) So here we have no arrangement. Huh?

Śrutakīrti: No. Here there's no arrangement. In Sydney or Melbourne there will be some facility.

Prabhupāda: In New Delhi you were born? How long you have come?

Śrutakīrti: How long ago have you come?

Indian boy: I was just nine months old when we left Delhi.

Prabhupāda: So Australia, they are inviting people to come here for working, but how is that? They do not get work?

Amogha: They are not in control. There is a jobless rate, unemployment. They call it unemployment. It goes out of control. Sometimes people lose their jobs, and they can't find a job. But the government is not able to control the economy very well. All over the world this happens. So sometimes people try to get a job and they can't get the job.

Prabhupāda: There is enough jobs if the government arranges to engage them in growing food. But there is no such arrangement.

Amogha: No. There is so much land in Australia.

Prabhupāda: The government should have some arrangement for engaging them . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . in working the field.

Amogha: Shall I give them some prasādam, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (end)