760707 - Conversation C - Washington D.C.

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760707ED-WASHINGTON DC - July 07, 1976 - 94:12 Minutes

Bṛṣākapi: These are the Flemings, Prabhupāda. You are a professor?

Professor Flemings: Well, I'm retired.

Bṛṣākapi: Retired professor? From what school?

Professor Flemings: University of Maryland.

Bṛṣākapi: The University of Maryland. What was your subject?

Professor Flemings: Modern poetry and theater.

Bṛṣākapi: Oh, very nice, very nice. This is . . . ah, you are a physicist?

Carl Werntz: That's correct.

Bṛṣākapi: And your name is?

Carl Warentz: Carl Werntz.

Bṛṣākapi: Carl Werntz, Prabhupāda. He's from Catholic University, physicist.

Prabhupāda: If you are uncomfortable, you can sit on this cot.

Carl Werntz: No, that's okay, I'll sit like this.

Prabhupāda: You are welcome to sit down here.

Hari-śauri: (background discussion as sitting places arranged) If you want to sit, you can sit on the couch.

Bṛṣākapi: This is Eugene Thoreau, Prabhupāda. He's an attorney in Washington, D.C. He's helped us very much opening up saṅkīrtana places. Very good.

Vipina: And Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is a professor from Catholic University, a physicist.

Bṛṣākapi: I told him already.

Vipina: Oh, did you?

Hari-śauri: Bring some chairs in. Bring one or two chairs. We'll just bring you a chair.

Carl Werntz: Oh, I can sit here, unless you'd rather have me on a chair.

Hari-śauri: No, whatever you want. Whatever's comfortable.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So how do you like our movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

Bṛṣākapi: He said how do you like our movement?

Guest (1): Well, for myself I know nothing about it, that's why I'm here.

Guest (2): I like it. I've seen some very good people go into it, and I like it.

Woman guest: I've known two people who went into it, and I was at a meeting when you were on Q Street. And I've always liked it.

Eugene Thoreau: I have found it strangely appealing. I met it by accident at an airport, and one of the devotees gave me a flower, and I was struck by it. So I happen to be a lawyer, and I offered my services, and I got a call just a few days after that.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Open the fan.

Carl Werntz: I find it interesting.

Bṛṣākapi: Would you like this fan on, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should we turn this on for you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Āap? (You?)

Dr. Sharma: I'm professor at Berkeley, California.

Prabhupāda: Berkeley. Berkley me kahan rehte hain? (Where do you stay in Berkley?)

Dr. Sharma: And I was Regents Professor at UCLA, University of California, Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Los Angeles mein hamara mandir hai. (Okay. In Los Angeles we have got our temple.) You sometimes go to our temple?

Dr. Sharma: Yes, I go to the temple in Berkeley. I was at Berkeley about a week ago. I'm in London now, at the Royal Institute of Chemistry. I was born in Haridwar.

Prabhupāda: Haridwar. (laughs) Bhagavān ka deśa hari. (It is God's own place Hari.) Hari, Hari means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and dvāra means the door, the doorway to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is a place in India, Haridwar, people go there for pilgrimage, very famous place.

Dr. Sharma: I grew up with yogīs and sannyāsīs in Rishikesh. My father is a recluse.

Prabhupāda: Oh, your father is also recluse.

Dr. Sharma: Recluse. And I must tell an incident which, although I was growing up with meditation, I find the bhakti-yoga, the chanting, really fulfilling and actually making the difference. Actually making the difference. In one case, it is abstract philosophy, which is the rāja-yoga, other yogas, philosophies, and this actually makes the person transformed. Another incident occurred yesterday, when I was meditating, and I wanted to ask about five different ślokas of Gītā, out of which, surprisingly, you discussed four. (laughter) This was most astounding to me.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Dr. Sharma:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

(BG 4.7)

That was one. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). I'd like you to discuss two more: karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. If you could please kindly . . .

Prabhupāda: That is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

Everyone is engaged in his occupational duties. Everyone is engaged. Generally, according to Vedic civilization, the society is divided into eight divisions. Varṇāśrama-dharma it is called—four varṇas and four āśramas. Materially, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And spiritually, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. These eight divisions. So according to these eight divisions, everyone has an occupational duty. So what is the duty, and how the duty is perfected? That is hari-toṣaṇam: to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That people do not know. Especially at the present moment, they do not know who is Hari and they do not know how to please Him. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that they do not care to know who is God and how to satisfy Him. That is the defect. The life is meant for, human life, for satisfying God. That is going on under religious system, and the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma. Dharma is not a kind of faith, religion is not a kind of faith, but it is a duty, varṇāśrama-dharma. So that duty we are forgetting, and therefore we are coming to the level of animals. Because the cats and dogs, they have no duty—animal. But human being has an obligation, a duty, to understand God and to satisfy Him. That is human life. Without this knowledge, without this performance of duty, human life is on the level of animal. There are many other verses in this connection. (aside) Where are others? They are not present here?

Hari-śauri: Svarūpa Dāmodara?

Prabhupāda: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa also.

Hari-śauri: I can find them.

Prabhupāda: That is the defect of modern civilization, that they do not care to know what is God and what is our duty. That is lacking.

Dr. Sharma:

yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ

tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī . . .

yasyāṁ jāgrati saṁyamī

(BG 2.69)

Prabhupāda: So we are trying to enlighten . . .

Bṛṣākapi: This gentleman is from the embassy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The ambassador couldn't come personally but sent his representative.

Vipina: The minister of political affairs at the embassy, Venkateshvara.

Prabhupāda: Venkateshvara? So by evolutionary process we come to this human form of life. It is a chance to understand the value of life, to understand God and our relationship with God, and if we are missing this opportunity, that's a great loss. Then you again become in another form of life. That is sure. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change this body, and if we are not prepared what kind of body we are going to get next life, then we remain like animals. The animal does not know. And human life, if you are missing this important point that, "I am going to change this body, and what kind of body I'm going to get?" if I do not know, then what is the difference between me and the animal?

Dr. Sharma: Perhaps you can comment on the fact that in the Movement, apart from the Kṛṣṇa people, not only the sannyāsīs, but also the common working man, his karma is karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana (BG 2.47). He also . . .

Prabhupāda: This is karma. Karma means according to that division, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Karma means activity. There must be some prescribed activity. Just like you are professor, you have got your prescribed activities. He's the minister of ambassadors, he has got prescribed activity. So everyone has got prescribed activities in whatever position he is, but what is the standard of success, that I have done my duties, prescribed duties, properly? What is that standard? The standard is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13): whether you have satisfied the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your duty. Then it is success.

Professor Flemings: How do you know if you have satisfied God?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the intelligent question. If you do not know who is Supreme Personality of Godhead and how He is satisfied, then you are lacking knowledge. That is being instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā. God Himself is instructing how you can satisfy Him. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is not very difficult. Anyone can do it, "Just always think of Me," God says, Kṛṣṇa says: "Always think of Me." Just as we think of our friend, of our master, of our beloved, similarly we can think of God also. There is no difficulty. But if you have no knowledge about God, how you can think of God? That is the defect. So the . . . how God is satisfied, that is there, but if you do not do it . . . that is our business, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. God says that, "You always think of Me, you become My devotee, you just offer Me obeisances, just worship Me." Four things. Anyone can do it. It is not difficult.

Dr. Sharma: You are so very kind you have given us the temple, and these devotees are such, I mean, saints.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is for this purpose. People may come, see God, then he can think of God. There is no difficulty. If you see something, you think of it. That is man-manā bhava. And if you regularly do it, then you become a devotee. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. And when you come to the temple you worship Him. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). Worshiping means give and take. Take blessings and offer little fruit or little flower, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. And if you cannot do anything, just offer your obeisances. Very simple thing. Even the child can perform it. But they will not do it. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhā prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Why does he not do it? That is explained. Because unless one is sinful, duṣkṛtina . . . he has got merit, but he's utilizing his merit for sinful activities. Kṛti, kṛti means meritorious, but duṣkṛti, he has got merit, intelligence, but he's utilizing merit and intelligence for sinful activity. Therefore duṣkṛtina. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. Mūḍha means rascal. He knows everything except God. Narādhama, the lowest of the mankind. The human life is meant for this purpose, to understand God. But he does not. Therefore we say narādhama, lowest of the . . . "But he is very educated." Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. He is so-called educated. Actually, he is not educated, because he does not know what is God. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. The basic principle is atheistic attitude. So this class of men will never offer obeisances or surrender to God.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

So asuric life is very dangerous, and it is punishable. This is the position. So we should not become asuric. With all material opulences, just like in the Rāmāyaṇa, Rāvaṇa was called asura. He was materially very advanced. He made his capital made of gold, he was so advanced materially. But he did not care for Rāma, therefore he is called asura, rākṣasa. He was son of a brāhmaṇa, but he did not care for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He was learned scholar, materially very intelligent, there was aeroplane, everything, but he did not care for Rāma, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore he is described as asura. So asuras are divided into four classes—duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama and māyayāpahṛta-jñāna.

(long pause)

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our preaching activities we see that, of course, in Kali-yuga more and more individuals are turning away from Kṛṣṇa, or God, and thinking that God is dead, they don't need to do any type of activities for Him. Then how can we explain to these people that they are missing the entire point of life, and simply . . .? In other words, they don't even want to hear. They simply don't want to hear anything. God is dead, and they think that they are enjoying, and it's very difficult sometimes to explain to these people that actually they are not enjoying at all.

Prabhupāda: They are mūḍhas, that is already explained. If you cannot convince them, then avoid them. What can be done? Instead of wasting time, you better avoid them. Upekṣā. Useless. Because godless person means duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ. So it is the duty of the preacher to enlighten them also, to take some risk. But if one is unable to take risk, he may avoid them.

Devotee (1): When we go to universities, so often we run into very educated people, so-called educated people. Of course, they see us, they think that we are simply sentimentalists, that actually we are not . . . don't really have knowledge of the universe. I've explained to these people, it's not necessarily that they are sinful so much as they are just miseducated.

Prabhupāda: No, educated means they have knowledge, but real knowledge is taken away. He does not know God. Just like a man is rich, but he has no food. It is like that. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Therefore his knowledge is misused, duṣkṛtina. This knowledge, without any sense of God . . . (guests entering) Yes, come in. Sit down.

Bṛṣākapi: This is Mr. Davis, Mr. and Mrs. Davis, Prabhupāda. Their daughter is a devotee here, very good devotee.

Hari-śauri: There's a chair if you'd like to sit in the chair. We can bring one more. Bring another chair.

Vipina: Used to be a senator.

Prabhupāda: Perfection of knowledge means to understand God. That is perfection of knowledge. Otherwise, it is imperfect knowledge. Therefore it is called Vedānta. Veda means knowledge.

Hari-śauri: Who is this?

Bṛṣākapi: This is Bill Sauer. He wrote this book, The Fourth Kingdom.

Prabhupāda: Fourth kingdom? What is the idea?

Bṛṣākapi: The idea is that the goal of life should be to . . .

Bill Sauer: Survival of life. To put people on other planets.

Bṛṣākapi: Put people on other planets, so that the race can survive.

Bill Sauer: So that all of life can survive.

Bṛṣākapi: So that all life can survive.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

(BG 9.25)

If you want to transfer yourself to other planetary system, you can go. You can go to the higher planetary system, which is resided by the demigods, deva—yānti deva-vratā devān—and you can go to other planets—Pitṛloka, or you can remain here as you like and you can go to the planet where God is there. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. So this human life, you can make your selection. After all, you have to change your body. That is compulsory. Nobody can remain here with this body—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9)—and we have to change our body. So we can make our selection, where we shall go next, either in the higher planetary system or the Pitṛloka or we shall remain here or we can go even back to home, back to Godhead. So we must prepare ourself for that purpose. Then next life we can go wherever we like. But anywhere within this material world, there are four principles: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. There is birth, there is death, there is old age and disease. But if you go to the spiritual kingdom, there is no more such things—no birth, no death, no disease, no old age. Now we can make our selection. And if we do not make our selection, if we live like cats and dogs, without any responsibility, then again we become in the category of cats and dogs. Mūḍha, janmani janmani (BG 16.20), life after life, they remain like animals, without any knowledge.

Bṛṣākapi: Bill's idea is that we should go by spaceship, right?

Bill Sauer: Well, in the natural world and in the cosmos, nothing is stable. Life only survives all the things that can cause it to perish by mobility, by moving. A coconut tree on one island drops its seeds in the ocean to float for thousands of miles to wash up on another shore, so that if that island is destroyed it will have life on another island. The seed blossom of a plant is the way the plant survives. It sends its seeds off to other meadows to assure its survival. The premise here is that humanity arrived in nature very recently. We are part of nature, but we arrived very recently to give life on earth the same mobility, the same chance to survive. Among the hundreds of other planets in the universe, as a dandelion does in seeding other meadows, as a coconut palm does in surviving on other islands—the coconut palm does not know that there are other islands, but yet it launches its seeds to the unknown currents of the ocean—I believe it is our duty to launch our seeds, our space arks, launch those seeds to the unknown gravitational currents of the stars and find the hundreds of other planets that are out there, so that there cannot be enough cosmic disasters to cause life to perish. And it was meeting two or three of your people at the airport, and I asked them about—at the Washington National Airport; I think it was Meena and Mary Davis and Sarvabhauma, I believe—and I said, "What about your philosophy?" He said: "We talk about living on other planets." Boy, (laughs) right away I got very interested. And I believe people have had visions on life to other planets because I believe that's our destiny, and that is our reason for existence in nature. I've been interested in the Kṛṣṇa movement. You'll say why? I'm a materialistic type, why am I here? (laughs) You have an interesting philosophy that . . . you see, not all of us can be building space arks, not all of us can leave the earth, and we should not be using up all our material resources, destroying all other life unnecessarily. And I think we have to adopt a lifestyle that is a little simpler, that we would enjoy life on this earth, where most of us have to stay, with lesser material requirements. Secondly, I believe we are going to have to have a different type of society on a space ark if we're going to have maybe a hundred years to two hundreds years going to another star. The traditional societies that we are familiar with may not be able to survive the social pressures. Maybe this type of an environment—is this communal, would you say?—I think it's going to have to be some type of communal environment to survive this kind of a trip. So this is my interest in the Kṛṣṇa movement. I think they seem to have the visions of going to other planets, which I think is our only reason for existence.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, I was discussing, yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can go to the higher planetary system where the devas, the demigods, live. Their duration of life is very, very big. Our six months is equal to one day there. Such ten thousands of years they live. But they die. It is not permanent. But the duration of life is very big, the standard of life is very high. These are the advantages. But there is death, old age, disease. Birth, death, old age and disease. But if you transfer yourself in the spiritual kingdom, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), then you don't get any more material birth. That is because we are eternal, we living entities. We do not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). After giving up this body we do not die actually, we accept another body.

Bill Sauer: I believe the spirit of life lives on totally in this marvelous planet earth, but I feel the spirit has to be carried and nurtured and improved in the body. So I feel we have to carry the bodies, the material bodies, to the other planets to allow the spiritualism to live there also.

Prabhupāda: That is in the material world. If you want to stay in the material world, then you change the material body just suitable for a particular place, atmosphere. But we have got our spiritual body. That spiritual body, without any material covering, you can transfer to the spiritual world.

Bill Sauer: You believe you can transmit that to other planets?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to transfer, because we are giving up this body. So you must accept another body. So either in this planet or in other planets or as human being or less than human being . . . there are 8,400,000 types of body. You have to accept one of them, according to your karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). How the next body is developed, that is depending on our work. If we work like demigod, then we go and get the body of demigod. And if we work like dog, then we get the body of the dog. Nature's. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). According to activity and association of the modes of material nature, we get up and down, different varieties of body. Some of them are low grade, some of them are high grade. That depends on our association with the modes of nature. Nature's work is going on. Just like if we contaminate some particular germs of disease, that disease will develop and we have to suffer. Similarly, by our contamination or association with the guṇa, qualities of nature . . . there are three qualities: goodness, passion and ignorance. So we have to know how to associate. So if we associate with the goodness, then we are elevated to the higher planetary system, deva. And if we associate with passion, then in the middle, just like human being. And if we associate with ignorance, then go down like animals, trees, plants, like that.

Bill Sauer: How is the spirit held in the system till it finds a new body?

Prabhupāda: Body, that I have explained, that you are associating with some modes of material nature. So according to that association, you'll get next body. Just like, I have already explained.

Bill Sauer: Is that immediately after one dies you transfer to another body, or later?

Prabhupāda: Yes, body is changing every moment.

Bill Sauer: Every moment.

Prabhupāda: Every moment. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā lesson.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

Every body . . . just like a child is changing his body to boyhood, boy is changing his body to youthhood, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, the young man is becoming old man. Similarly, when the body is no more endurable, then you get another body. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body being destroyed, we are not destroyed. We living entities, we are nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. We are eternal. The proof is given that the child is growing, getting the boy's body. That means the living entity is there, he has changed body. When a child is grown to become a boy, the father, mother do not think that, "My child is no more existing." He knows, "My child is existing, but in a different body." This is common sense. So we shall exist. We existed in the past, we are existing now and we shall exist in the future, but different body. (break)

Bill Sauer: . . . in thesis that we . . . nature tolerates us. We are part of the tree of life, this is the tree of the animal kingdom. And since there is no way that the animal or plant can escape this planet in the body form, but we are here to support this new tree, the tree of technology, the tree of the fourth kingdom, which started out as the animals lived very simply and became more complex until we finally developed a means to launch the seeds of our civilization from this planet to others. We are a special creature who has been given special brain power, special power, which we have abused many times, by the way. But special power in order to create space arks to take not just humanity, but really an ark of the totality of life, to another planet, to, hopefully, hundreds of planets. Because sooner or later this planet will be destroyed by the sun. And the sun . . .

Prabhupāda: Other planets also will be destroyed.

Bill Sauer: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Other planets also will be destroyed.

Bill Sauer: Other planets? There couldn't be enough cosmic disasters to destroy a hundred planets at once.

Prabhupāda: Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19).

Bill Sauer: Our star will eventually turn into a red giant, will incinerate this earth. Other stars, the astrologers have found, or astronomers, excuse me . . .

Prabhupāda: You find out that verse? (Bill laughs) Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20).

Bill Sauer: The . . . many stars out in this galaxy are far less stable than our star. Our star has been stable now for five billion years. Many stars are not stable that long, and we're kind of living on borrowed time.

Prabhupāda: (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo

'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ

yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu

naśyatsu na vinaśyati

(BG 8.20)

Translation: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." You want this verse also? Bhutva bhava sa evayam?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Bill Sauer: Well, I could interpret that in another way, not having any background—you'll have to excuse my ignorance—that we are the tool of eternity. We are, through our technical capabilities, the ability to spread life so far among so many billions of stars that there will be eternal life, there will be eternal spirituality.

Prabhupāda: But there is eternal life.

Bill Sauer: But when this planet sits for a billion years at a thousand degrees Fahrenheit, what we know as life will be destroyed.

Prabhupāda: Anything within this material world will be all destroyed. But there is another nature, that is being described. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20).

Bill Sauer: But the spirit is manufactured in the body, is it not, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes, spirit is, but there is a spiritual world also, where you don't require this material body, you remain in your spiritual body.

Bill Sauer: But if there is no bodies left, they are all burned up, there's no spiritual development.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, that is not the fact.

Bill Sauer: So you need to take the bodies somewhere so that . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No, so long you are in the material world you need to take a material body, but if you are in your original, spiritual body, then you remain in the spiritual world.

Bill Sauer: Well, I believe there is a matrix of creation, a spiritual—technical people call it an electromagnetic world—where I'm sure a lot goes on that we are unaware of, but I believe the . . . it's like one product of the fourth kingdom is the automobile. And that has its spiritual world. Automobiles, if you destroyed all the automobiles, there are still blueprints around, there are still things that can manufacture other automobiles. But the trial, the improvement, the development the automobile has to take place as an automobile. Likewise, I think the spiritual improvement, the improvement of . . .

Prabhupāda: Automobile, automatically automobile does not develop. When a man, a person, develops the design, that is a question of development. But the automobile as it is, it does not develop. It is matter. When matter is handled by spirit soul, then there is change. Otherwise there is no change.

Dr. Sharma: Perhaps I can give you a scientific explanation. I'm a scientist. According to science, every cell is changed within twelve years. Every single body's cell is changed.

Bill Sauer: It's continuous, yes.

Dr. Sharma: It's a continuing process, by the molecular process, automatic process. All right? And Gītā says: vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi (BG 2.22). Just like you change the old clothes to new clothes—it's an exact word-to-word translation.

Bill Sauer: We're a continually changing image, right.

Dr. Sharma: The body changes. Now the concept of God, according to the scripture, is infinite. With our finite mind, we cannot comprehend the infinite. Because the finite can only comprehend a finite portion of it. Just like when I was a child, my concept of God, the infinity, was a certain portion of infinity, but it changes. So long you are comprehending the material part of an infinity, you are only comprehending a finite part, and consequently, when the body changes or the soul changes, you will never be able to comprehend the material and the transition of the material to another planet, because there is no way you can comprehend the totality of the God's manifestation. In the Eighteenth Chapter, when the virāḍ-rūpa is given, he cannot comprehend the whole māyā. And the idea of transporting body or material is just in a very small, finite portion of the total infinity, which no one can comprehend. This is what Prabhupāda is . . .

Bill Sauer: I agree. What we are, are the resulting images of the power of creation. We are the evidence that there is a creative power.

Dr. Sharma: And consequently, since we are only a manifestation of the total power . . .

Bill Sauer: That's right, we are a manifestation, an image of it.

Dr. Sharma: That's why you cannot. An electric bulbs, when they are turned on and off, the light is there, but it is very hard to say where the electrons are flowing into, which . . .

Bill Sauer: Well, in our case, our electrons are flowing from one place, the sun, and the imagery in your magazine is just beautiful. It shows the imagery of the man and the sun, and what we are, scientifically, as you know, (devotees laugh) we are images of sun energy, and this is where electrons come from. And when the sun goes out, we go out, unless we go to another star where there is another sun.

Vipina: Bill, could you explain to Śrīla Prabhupāda how you think life is created?

Bill Sauer: How it is created?

Vipina: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Who is the creator?

Bill Sauer: Well, there is a creative force. The power of life is light, and you say (laughs) "Godhead is light, nescience is darkness." I believe it. It's trite and very true, in my understanding.

Vipina: He thinks everything comes from light, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Bill Sauer: Now all the religions refer to God as light. Most of the religions. And science agrees. Light is that very fugitive bit of energy that allows life to be possible.

Prabhupāda: Unless there is fire, wherefrom the light comes?

Bill Sauer: From the fire in the sun.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the fire is the source of light.

Bill Sauer: That's the source of light, yes.

Prabhupāda: So as soon as you say light, you must find out the source of light.

Bill Sauer: That's correct. You must destroy matter in order to create light.

Woman guest: What about water?

Dr. Sharma: You don't destroy any matter; it is transmutation.

Bill Sauer: Or, excuse me, I don't mean destroy—it's transmuted from matter to energy.

Dr. Sharma: That's the Einstein's equation, energy is equal to mass and the speed of light, to the square of that. You can transmute either way. There is no matter destroyed or created.

Bill Sauer: That's correct. Matter and energy are really the same thing. It's another form, that's correct.

Dr. Sharma: That's the whole principle of atomic . . .

Bill Sauer: So once you have light, you have the source of life, and then you have to have an enormously creative power to take the light, move it into a form which can become life. It started out as single cells in the ocean or simple chemicals in the ocean, then single-celled, then more complex celled, all with an extraordinarily complicated creative power causing the light to flow through, to create a new image, which is life. And it's very similar, as you understand the television picture has the same electromagnetic energy that we are. We, with our simple brains, can take electromagnetic energy, tune it, transmit it, retune it as a two-dimensional picture. The creative power in life has taken the same electromagnetic energy coming from the sun, and has tuned it in the form of living images, three-dimensional images, far, far more complicated than our simple television.

Dr. Sharma: I'll read your book page by page and you do the same number of chanting. (laughter)

Bill Sauer: All right.

Dr. Sharma: Okay?

Bill Sauer: Yes, sir.

Dr. Sharma: And you'll be surprised what happens. I'm a hard-core scientist, and to me, it's a transformation, absolutely. I'll read your book and you read the transformation. I'm sure you'll get ahead much quicker than me.

Bill Sauer: I've talked to your people, and I think there's pretty much agreement on the fundamental philosophical concept.

Dr. Sharma: There's something magnetic about it, something creative which comes from inside. You can't explain.

Prabhupāda: Where is our scientist?

Vipina: Svarūpa Dāmodara—could you get him?

Hari-śauri: I already sent someone for him, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't think he's here.

Prabhupāda: He's not here.

Bṛṣākapi: They went to the Library of Congress today, Prabhupāda. They aren't here right now.

Bill Sauer: No, I think you put it better than I did. We do not destroy matter, we transmute it to energy. That's exactly correct.

Dr. Sharma: And that you can say is exactly equal to Planck's Constant . . . Planck's Constant multiplied by the frequency of light.

Bill Sauer: And it is the . . . and in fire you are again transmuting material chemical energy into light. And when our light source goes out . . .

Dr. Sharma: And it surprising. I'm a scientist, I publish papers, now it is all coming together. It is after a long search which we are doing, the body systems, how to be coordinated. Endocrine systems and the nervous systems . . . (indistinct) . . . endocrine systems is coming though the nervous system, and that is coordinated through prāṇāyāma-yoga and the chanting. Basically, indirectly, is a straightforward . . .

Bill Sauer: Well, there's fundamentally, should not be a difference between science and religion, really should not be.

Dr. Sharma: All scientists, all big scientists are the greatest religious people. I am at Berkeley. They are all Nobel Prize winners. They always say that all of our science, we cannot create a single leaf or a single flower, we feel so helpless.

Bill Sauer: You know Calvin?

Dr. Sharma: Sure. I was professor at UCLA, and he was . . .

Bill Sauer: Very good. See, he got his Nobel Laureate in explaining how the chemistry of light turns into life. So I passed my manuscript by him to make sure that he didn't run me out of town. So he agreed. He said it was rather novel. But I believe there is a fundamental truth that runs through the whole system, and I've read some of your comments in the magazines, and I think you are fundamentally in agreement with what you said.

Dr. Sharma: Prabhupāda, perhaps you can make commentary on this śloka:

yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ

tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī

yasyāṁ jāgrati bhūtāni

sā niśā paśyato muneḥ

(BG 2.69)

Prabhupāda: The material civilization is the jāgrati for the materialistic person. But those who are spiritually enlightened, they think that these persons are sleeping. They got the opportunity of understanding God, but without understanding God, they are simply busy with the material body and its comfort and working hard day and night, and missing the point. And whereas the materialistic person, they see these Kṛṣṇa conscious people, Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are wasting their time by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and they are doing nothing. Just the opposite business. These people are seeing the materialistic person, they are sleeping, not enlightened to the spiritual life and these materialistic persons, they are seeing that these people, under some fictitious idea, they are spoiling their life without enjoying material facilities. Just the opposite.

Bill Sauer: I try to resolve those two views. I believe that materialism has a divine purpose.

Prabhupāda: Everything has got divine purpose. But if you do not understand the divine purpose, then you remain animal.

Bill Sauer: Yes, that's right.

Prabhupāda: Everything has got divine purpose. This human form of life is given to us by laws of nature to understand what is God, what we are, what is our relationship with God, what is this material world, why you have come here. These things we have to know in this human form of life, and, if we like, we can know also. But instead of knowing these different phases of life, if we simply take care of this body, like the animals, then we miss the opportunity. The animal is concerned to take the care of the body, that's all. If we simply remain taking care of this body, then we are animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

(SB 10.84.13)

Bill Sauer: Sir, may I read you back the . . . my version of "Materialism Without Purpose"?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bill Sauer: May I read you "Materialism Without Purpose"?

Prabhupāda: Without purpose?

Bill Sauer: Says: "Mankind's insatiable appetite for material things stems from an instinctive desire to pursue technology, which in turn drives civilization to a frenzy of activity. However, without a cause or a purpose," or spirituality, as you say: "The rush and hurry in uncertain directions to uncertain places creates an excess of technological gimmickery. Perhaps this continuing quest for more material goods would be less anxious if the cause of this obsession of mankind were universally recognized. If we saw the ultimate use of technology as an extension of nature with a purpose for the whole life system, perhaps a new life style would evolve. We would see a creative, natural, instinctive satisfying outlet for energies, and we might all collectively attain more peace of mind. The waste of technological gimmickery would then disappear. Hard reality, however, will extinguish our relentless desire for material things if we do not correct the situation ourselves. We will soon run out of resources and power if our technological explosion continues as blind as a raging torrent of water flowing in any direction gravity takes it."

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are carried away by the laws of nature. However you may improve your technological science, you are under the laws of material nature. That you cannot change. But if you revive your spiritual life, then you can change. Otherwise it is not possible. If you keep yourself under the laws of material nature, then you have to be carried away by the laws of material nature, however expert you may be in technological understanding. Because, after all, you are an instrument in the hands of material nature.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

(BG 3.27)

You are falsely thinking that "I am everything. I can, by technological understanding, I improve the condition." But the real problem is, as it is put forward by Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We are put under the laws of material nature, by which we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease. This is our real problem. So unless you make a solution of these problems, there is actually no advancement of education. But the problem remains the same.

Bill Sauer: Saying that we're governed by the laws of nature, since we are a biological creature like the rest of life . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: So you should not remain under the laws of material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very difficult.

Bill Sauer: In one of the cover letters that went out to some of the people in the American Institute of the Aeronautics and Astronautics, I referred to mankind as a biological phenomenon to solve one of nature's big problems. And a man wrote back, says: "Anybody who calls man a biological phenomenon shouldn't try and talk to me." So I don't know what he thinks we are, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Biological phenomenon is nature.

Bill Sauer: It is nature. It is governed by the laws of nature, exactly.

Prabhupāda: So you can get out of it as it is advised, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very difficult. But mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you surrender to God, then you can get out of this biological problem. Otherwise it is not possible.

Mr. Davis: May I just add one little note to my friend, and I'm sure my scientist friend will back me up, that the radiation from the sun includes far more than just light, which is, after all, just a mere part of the electromagnetic radiation.

Bill Sauer: Physical light is what you're talking about.

Mr. Davis: Yes.

Bill Sauer: I'm talking about the whole electromagnetic spectrum.

Mr. Davis: Yes, but you said light.

Bill Sauer: Okay, you're correct. I wrote . . . I've said it in the book, that it is far more complex than we can even imagine. It's far more complex. Let's see . . .

Dr. Sharma:

yataḥ pravṛttir bhūtānāṁ

yena sarvam idaṁ tatam

svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya

siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ

(BG 18.46)

Devotee (2): Excuse me, is your name Bill? Did you ever inquire to ask what is the source of the light? Like if you look at a light bulb you can examine that it has a source to that, actually. You can trace it back to the electric company, and the people who are running the electric company are personalities, right? So in the same way the light of the sun and the light of the moon is coming from a person, a personality, right? And we say that that person is the source of all truths actually.

Bill Sauer: That's an interesting way of . . . I said: "Radiant energy from the sun was to be the most important ingredient for our living earth. We know the content of the sun rays to be light and heat. This is what our senses tell us. We measure wavelengths and we see colors in sunlight. However, the sun rays are a blend of radiant energy so complex that we may never understand their significance." And I believe, at least in our generation, I don't think we'll quite understand how complex the sun is. So I agree totally with you.

Dr. Sharma: It's not only that. By the theory of relativity, the observer is also a part of the observed phenomenon. Consequently, we will never . . .

Bill Sauer: That's correct. We will never understand . . .

Dr. Sharma: For that reason, it's difficult to comprehend infinity by the finite mind, and chanting gives you something, gives me something.

Bill Sauer: That's right. Well, you find an intuitive understanding . . .

Dr. Sharma: I can't explain it.

Mr. Davis: It brings you to the uncertainty principle.

Dr. Sharma: Heisenberg's Principle, yes . . . (indistinct)

Bill Sauer: I'm glad you said that. Then this holds true, that we may never understand the significance, and being observers on the scene we probably never will. Einstein used to say he'd like to . . . he used to wonder how it might be to ride a wave of light so he could see how it really was. But since we're sitting here . . . (laughs)

Dr. Sharma: Someday we have to have the faith, and the only thing, as Prabhupāda said, that there is a bottle of honey inside, and being outside, you can see, but unless you taste it, you can't really feel it.

Bill Sauer: Probably the most important . . . I quoted some people. This is Pierre de Chardin, who was a very religious man in science, was caught right in the two, and I consider this probably the most important quote in the book. De Chardin said: "In the mutual reinforcement of these two still-opposed powers . . ." namely religion and science . . .

Dr. Sharma: No, I would never agree to that. Religion and science . . .

Bill Sauer: In the Western civilization it's opposed. He's saying philosophically, he said: "In the mutual reinforcement of these two still-opposed powers and the conjunction of reason and mysticism, the human spirit is destined by the very nature of its development to find the uttermost degree of its penetration and the maximum of its vital force." In other words, if you don't have spirituality and science, you're only half a person. So he's simply saying what you did.

Dr. Sharma: Yes to my surprise, most . . .

Bṛṣākapi: Excuse me, one thing is, you should address your questions to the authority. This discussion that you are having will get you nowhere.

Bill Sauer: That's true.

Bṛṣākapi: Unless you apply your questions to the authority, then you will never understand anything. So the authority is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta is teaching on that authority. So if you have come here, then you should try to address your questions to His Divine Grace rather than arguing among yourselves, because you will not find any satisfaction in your argument. If you want information, then you must go to the authority.

Guest: Still, the argument was an aspect of the occasion, and it came out of the wisdom that is here.

Prabhupāda: Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma parva 5.22). Things which are inconceivable, do not try to understand by argument. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. So our process, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to take knowledge from the authority. Unless we take knowledge from the authority, however we may go on arguing, we cannot come to the conclusion. The modern scientist, philosophers, they are arguing, but they do not come to the conclusion. If you want to take conclusion . . . just like two lawyers are arguing in the court, but the conclusion is given by the authority, the judge. That one has to accept. So we take authority, Bhagavad-gītā or Kṛṣṇa. He is accepted authority by all the ācāryas—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in the śāstra also, Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala, Asita. So our authority is confirmed. So if we take conclusion from the authority, then we benefit. Otherwise, with our limited knowledge, if we go on arguing, then we cannot understand the conclusion. That is not possible. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. By argument we cannot come to the conclusion. I can argue, and you can argue, but you may argue more than me. Another person can argue more than you. In this way, you do not come to the conclusion. And śrutayo vibhinnā. So far scriptures are concerned, there are also different scriptures. Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (Mahābhārata, Vana-parva 313.117). And a philosopher is not a philosopher if he does not agree with other . . . if he does not agree other philosophers. So in this way, you are perplexed. Therefore it is advised, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). We should accept the authority, and then we shall be benefited. So the authorities are mentioned in the śāstra, who are authorities. So if we follow the authority, then we get the conclusion.

So Kṛṣṇa is the authority accepted. At least in India, all the Vedic authorities, Vedāntists, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the authority. So we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa says, and we get benefit out of it. Then it is all right. And without following authority, if you go on arguing, there is no end. The same example, that two lawyers, both of them are learned scholar. They are going on arguing on some point, they do not come to conclusion. But when the judge gives his conclusion, that has to be accepted. That is final. So we have to find out the judge. That is Kṛṣṇa. So we have got many points to understand by argument, but if we take the judgment of Kṛṣṇa, then it is conclusive. And He has His direction in every field of life, in Bhagavad-gītā. Even our political leaders, they also accept Bhagavad-gītā in guidance. So if we take guidance from Bhagavad-gītā without malinterpretation, then we are benefited. Unfortunately, we interpret our own way which is favorable to us, and that is not required. Then the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā is gone. We make our own conclusion, supposing on the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. That will not help us, by malinterpretation. You take the conclusion of Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you will be benefited.

Eugene Thoreau: May I ask a question? Is it possible to aim at any form of personal existence after death? To aim at it, I mean.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you are personally existing, you are old man. When you were a child, you were person. When you were a young man, you were a person. Now you are old man, you are a person. We are personalities continuing, although the body is changing. You are not missing your personality. So therefore personality continues even when you change this body also. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Find out this verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13).

Hari-śauri: Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20)?

Prabhupāda: No, there is another verse where Kṛṣṇa says: "My dear Arjuna, you and Me and all these persons who are assembled here . . ."

Hari-śauri: Na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsam.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ

na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ

na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ

sarve vayam ataḥ param

(BG 2.12)

Translation: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that means in the past we existed, at present we are existing, and in future we shall continue to exist, individually. And that is our experience. I existed in the past as a child. So I existed as a person. I existed as a young man, so I existed as a person. I am an old man now; now I am existing as a person. Naturally, the conclusion is when I shall change this body, I shall remain as a person. How we can change this conclusion? I am continuing to exist as a person. I am still existing as a person. And here is the authority, He says in the future also you remain as a person. So there is time factor, past, present and future, and in all these time factors I live as a person. Not only I, but also Kṛṣṇa. He says: "I also remain as person. You, Arjuna, you also person, I am also person, and all these soldiers and kings who have assembled, they are also person." So our personality continues, past, present and future.

Mr. Davis: Well then when you die and you are buried, they bury your body.

Prabhupāda: My body you bury, but I go away.

Mr. Davis: They bury my body whatever, they bury your name, they write it on a stone maybe, but they bury your name, they bury your memory. What survives, I am going to ask, and then what survives—no memory, no body, no name—is the spirit.

Prabhupāda: That is soul. Spirit soul.

Mr. Davis: And the spirit would not necessarily have the ability to point and say: "I used to be in that body or that body or that."

Prabhupāda: No, that he forgets. Death means forgetfulness. Just like accepting that I was existing in previous life, but now I do not remember. This is death. But I am existing, that's a fact. The same example: Everyone knows that he was existing as a child, he was existing as a young man. So because it is short period, I remember. But when the body is completely changed, the atmosphere is completely changed, we forget. But actually I exist continually. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This is the authoritative statement, that I am not annihilated on account of my body being annihilated. So they bury the body, or giving some name, some tomb, that is the business of my relatives, my friends, my family members. But as I am, I am aloof from this. I have accepted another body. And then begin my life in a different way. So people do not try to understand this science, how it is happening. That is all described in the Bhagavad-gītā. If we study Bhagavad-gītā very carefully, we can understand the philosophy of life correctly.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman here has a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Eugene Thoreau: You mentioned understanding. You mentioned lawyers arguing and the judge make the decision, and their higher authority resolves the question. Can you suggest how people can go beyond that to spiritual understanding—not just appealing for judgment over a controversy about facts. What suggestions or comments do you have about achieving spiritual understanding?

Prabhupāda: That is very simple. Spiritual understanding, that is, I was speaking. This is beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Spiritual understanding is that I am not this body. (to devotee) You move little this way. This is spiritual understanding. So long I am under this bodily concept of life, that, "I am this body," "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Christian," "I am white," "I am black" and so on, so on, these are all bodily concept of life. So long we keep ourself on this platform, then we are on the material platform. When you understand that, "I am not this body . . ." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Deha means this body, and dehī means the owner of the body. So unless we distinguish the owner of the body and the body, there is no spiritual knowledge. So long we identify with this body, that is material knowledge. And when we understand that, "I am not this body. I am a spirit soul. I have been entrapped by this body," that is spiritual knowledge.

Mr. Davis: Is it not also true that the more you can realize, "I am not this body," but there is that about, within my body which is spiritual, and that is there in an African's body which is spiritual, or a Chinese . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone's body is spiritual.

Mr. Davis: Everyone's body. Therefore the thing we have in common is we are all a part of the spirit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit, God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7): "All these living entities, they are My part and parcel." Qualitatively, we are one. Just like a small particle of gold is also gold. It is nothing else. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we have got that godly qualification. God can create. We can also create. That example I have given in this my last magazine, that we have created this big 747 airplane, but we cannot create a mosquito. That is also a plane, with pilot. That is God's creation. So the creative power, both of us, we have got, but we are limited and He is unlimited. That is the difference. A drop of seawater contains the same chemical, but the quantity of Atlantic Ocean and drop of Atlantic Ocean is not the same. So we are just like drop of the Atlantic Ocean, and God is Atlantic Ocean. That is the difference. But chemically test: the whole Atlantic Ocean is salty, we are also salty. Whatever chemical composition is Atlantic Ocean, we are also of the same chemical composition. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we show sometimes activities very wonderful. But still, God's activities are still more wonderful. That we cannot compare. That is not possible.

So we should understand what is the duty of the part and parcel. Now, just like this finger is the part and parcel of my body. So what is the duty of the finger? To serve the whole body. I order the finger, "Please come here," immediately it does like this. So the finger, being part and parcel of the body, it is the duty of the finger to serve the whole body. When the finger is unable to give any service, then it is diseased. If there is some pain in the finger, I want to use this finger for some purpose, to pick up this flower, I cannot do it; that means it is diseased. Similarly, we living entities, part and parcel of God, when we are unable to give service to the Supreme, and that is our diseased condition. That is not normal condition. And when we actually able to give service to God, that is our healthy condition. So in the materialistic way of life we are diseased. Because we are diseased, therefore we have to accept birth and death. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). So we have to get free from this diseased condition. Śuddhyet sattvam. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam . . . (break) (end)