770418 - Conversation B - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

770418R2-BOMBAY - April 18, 1977 - 34:41 Minutes

Prabhupāda: But if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he may rise up to that position by endeavor. Then he will fall down. And I have given this example, Nixon and Indira. This is factual. To come to take the post of prime minister, to become the president, is not easy job. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa (SB 10.2.32), great hardship. Similarly, the Māyāvādīs, they also undergo severe austerities to become one with the Supreme, impersonalists. Any . . . I have given the . . . karmī, jñānī, yogī, politicians, and everyone—everyone has got some aim. Many rich men, they commit suicide. So this is possi . . . this is the ultimate result of nondevotee. He may rise up by endeavor to a certain position as he imagined, "This is the best position." Just like we are also trying to occupy the best position—to become associate of Kṛṣṇa, to live with devotees. We have got also some aim, and the nondevotees, they have also got aim. But the devotees will never fall down, while the nondevotee will fall down. And if devotee circumstantially, by chance, falls down—not like them—he'll be again picked up by Kṛṣṇa. This is the science, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A devotee's position is certain. Now, take for example my position. For ordinary karmī to purchase so many properties all over the world and so many other things, money and everything, if karmī had to do it, how much hardship he had to go. And actually they are doing. Is it possible for one's life to acquire so many?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, even Birla doesn't have.

Prabhupāda: I have given this example, our court case, that the case would have been continued for years—but one day. Even though there was some difficulty, it is finished. So our enemies, they tried to block our march, but we shall kick on their head and progress our aims—if we stick to our principles. These things . . . I have discussed this nicely. How do you think?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Practically? Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very practical. Current. People like that, to read current.

Prabhupāda: This is fact. So always remain very, very faithful to Kṛṣṇa and guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Remain . . . so don't care for anything, any, the deprogrammer, and what are others? Eh? What are others?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, those are the . . . deprogrammers.

Prabhupāda: That is the . . . now at least in America nobody can do that, deprogramming?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they still can.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They still can.

Prabhupāda: Can? The . . . how?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This court case has not stopped them from deprogramming. It has established . . . it's a precedent case, which makes it very difficult. But they can still try. In different states they are still pressing for other laws. It wasn't . . .

Prabhupāda: But the airport authorities, they're also coming favorably.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Gradually they'll come. We haven't got to be afraid of all enemies. That is the point.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the point. Yeah. Just like the . . .

Prabhupāda: We have not minimized our program.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're increasing our program.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Being afraid of them, we have not decreased our activities.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. That's the point. These other groups in America, they lost their court cases, and they are either kicked out or minimizing their programs. They're hiding now. But we are increasing.

Prabhupāda: That is the point.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The residents of Vṛndāvana, they do not fear the enemies, the demons who are coming.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The residents of Vṛndāvana, they were never fearful.

Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) They know Kṛṣṇa is there. As soon as there is danger . . . there is torrents of rain. Innocent, they do not know. Kṛṣṇa: "Yes! Come on." They come, "Come on under the umbrella. Let there be rain. Now they are safe." Then Indra could understand, "Oh, the challenge . . . my Lord . . ." He was surprised that "A boy, cowherd boy, these people, they're worshiping as God? Oh, that may be . . ." Brahmā challenged, "This cowherd boy . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Didn't they know who Kṛṣṇa was?

Prabhupāda: Who Kṛṣṇa was, they knew it. But "This cowherd boy is Kṛṣṇa?" Just like we are also despising these so-called avatāras. That does not mean we do not know Kṛṣṇa. We know actually Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we despise all these rascals, "Avatāra." Their master is Kṛṣṇa they know. They're servant. Otherwise how they are devatā? But the mistake was that, "My master has come . . . has become a cowherd boy and playing with insignificant and boys and girls, and He is my master?" That is going on. Sūrayaḥ. Muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. You know this, the Bhāgavata? Muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Great, great stalwart demigods, they also become bewildered to understand. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Just like such a big lawyer, he is asking, "Whether Kṛṣṇa is fictitious or fact?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: People are in so much . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone takes this Kṛṣṇa, Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā is a story.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have no training.

Prabhupāda: Not they accept that this Kṛṣṇa, historical Kṛṣṇa, He is the person, Supreme Person. Ninety-nine point nine percent, they do not believe. "It is a fictitious story written about God, but not that this Kṛṣṇa is God." This is their opinion. Therefore Dr. Radhakrishnan: "No, no, not this Kṛṣṇa personally." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34)—he is guiding: "Don't be attached to this Kṛṣṇa." Doesn't want. He was a very good gentleman, at heart devotee of God, but he could not understand Kṛṣṇa. He used to say to me . . . I was very intimate with, with him, with Dr. Radhakrishnan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were intimate with him?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I used to go whenever I liked.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't know that.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I had many letters, correspondence with him. He promised that, "After retirement I shall join." Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yet when we went to visit him in Madras, I guess he was so sick . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that time he was finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He could not even recognize. He was brainless.

Prabhupāda: No . . . I used to go to see him even at his house without engagement. And he liked me. He gave me many . . . the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, this Nectar of Devotion, he gave some . . . I wrote correspondence with him. So he used to say: "Kindly pray to God for my salvation." He was not void. He was fearing God. But he did not accept this Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī. Otherwise he was a brāhmaṇa and learned scholar, God-fearing, everything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, he's very well respected still.

Prabhupāda: In my paper I criticized him, "Scholars Deluded." I gave him criticism.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Even then you were doing that. It's always amazing how, to me, you can practically, whenever you meet these big men, you kick them on the head and then you make them like it. Just like this lawyer. You told him, "This dog civilization . . ." Practically you were telling him that, "You are acting like that." But still, he liked it. And at the paṇḍāl you were doing the same.

Prabhupāda: Still, the Chief Minister applauded.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you present it so truthfully that they have to admit and look at themselves and admit, "Yes, you are right. We are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses."

Prabhupāda: I gave practical example, hanging in railway . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Train.

Prabhupāda: One gentleman came: "Sir, you are . . ." So he might be one of the hanging passengers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) That was funny. When you said that, the Chief Minister was laughing. At that point he was smiling. Everyone in that crowd was thinking, "Yes. He's talking about me."

Prabhupāda: Is that civilization? Human being should be calm and quiet, peaceful and advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There must be four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, everything. Everything is lost. From the very morning, "Where is bread? Where is bread?" We have no fixed income, but we are so pure. We are maintaining big establishment. Who has got so big establishment? And what is our asset? Asset is only Kṛṣṇa. For ordinary karmīs to maintain such house and such big establishment . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not possible. No one can do it.

Prabhupāda: He'll have insomnia, cannot sleep at night. What would have been the cost of the establishment? So many men are working.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What to speak of worldwide.

Prabhupāda: This is one only.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of one hundred.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not possible. Neither it's possible that . . . just like yesterday Kṛṣṇa sends you a man who says: "Sir, I would like to translate your books into Russian." You did not go canvassing for Russian translator. Every single thing is coming, Kṛṣṇa is sending to you.

Prabhupāda: So take shelter of Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet. That is the only way. Then everything is all right.

samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ

mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ

bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ

padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām

(SB 10.14.58)

Bhāgavata is giving you Kṛṣṇa. Therefore everyone should read Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā. So this is the paramparā system, we are giving. In future if they follow, they will also be delivered. This is wanted. We have made some plan. We are making. So this will be left. When we shall die, this will be left. And anyone who will accept this paramparā system will be promoted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

(Upendra enters)

Upendra: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Prabhupāda. Do you have anything . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Upendra: . . . to request?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Same thing as yesterday.

Prabhupāda: The same thing.

Upendra: Same thing as yesterday.

Prabhupāda: Same thing. Little fruit and . . . I think this nim, green liniment, you make like . . . show him how to do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For applying nim plaster on the foot you make it into a paste, then put. And then some bandage over it to keep it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some bandages. And it draws it out. You understand?

Prabhupāda: You can make nim paste, and make it hot. Apply that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Make it hot" means . . .?

Prabhupāda: Just like in a pot, you put on the fire. It will be hot. And apply it, and over that, one leaf. Otherwise, it will leak out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Over that, one nim leaf.

Prabhupāda: Nim leaf or any leaf, under the bandage. You can do it nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ācchā. Paste, a leaf and then a bandage.

Prabhupāda: If there is no need of bandage, then you can make . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There might be, because dhotī will become spoiled by the juices.

Prabhupāda: If you apply twice, thrice . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finished.

Prabhupāda: Simple life, Kṛṣṇa shelter . . . (indistinct) . . . yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). Ananyāś cintayanto māṁ ye janāḥ . . . all the difficulties will be overcome as long as you stick to the . . . follow ācārya. Others will come and go. Make things a little . . . correctly going on. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . so that he can . . . "I love them best." Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu . . . (BG 18.69). "In the human society he is My most dear servant." It is clearly stated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the reason for that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: He's preaching His glory. He is everything, and these rascals are denying. And He comes: "No, no, no, no. It is wrong." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). And a preacher means he is doing that, training people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Will he not be . . .? He is . . . a preacher is giving real sense. To awaken this sense, Kṛṣṇa has to come personally. And he is doing the same work: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." How much great service it is. Prahlāda Mahārāja . . . he is asking his father that, "Why you are so inimical to Kṛṣṇa? Better surrender. He has given you so much strength, so much power." That was . . . Prahlāda Mahārāja has given him. In spite of so much trouble given to him, he was speaking the same thing repeatedly, "Father, don't do this. Become a devotee." Stubborn. He was giving advice. This is the struggle between devotee and nondevotee. Therefore devotees are so dear to Kṛṣṇa. Despite all opposition, meeting all difficulties, they will say: "No, there is God. We must surrender." So he'll not be very dear? Just like soldiers for the country. They are meeting danger.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are very much glorified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the government gives them all facilities because they are dear patriots, laying down their life. During war everything is controlled, but they are supplied with immense . . . one store is destroyed; another one store is ready. Those who have gone to the warfield, they are . . . because they have got that store of food and everything, sufficient, whatever they like, want. Now, in one point they have to go away. So how they can take the store? So from one point to another point there is another store. This store is blown, that enemy may not take advantage of it. This is going on, hundreds and thousands of worth of goods—blown, cut. Because they are going to another point, and the enemies will take advantage of the store, therefore they have blown it. Therefore in war there is store scarcity. And that Sadānanda, you know that, my German Godbrother? So he was lean and thin, tall. So I was asking him that "I have heard that the Germans are very stout and strong, so why you are so lean and thin?" So he gave me . . . gave me condition that in the first war he was a child. So there was so much control, only weekly he could get a little butter. He showed a, this spot, like that. "Because we were children, we were supplied little butter, weekly this much. There was no nourishment. And we had to eat anything nonsense." Germans, they were given much tribulation, all sides. Still, they fought the French. All sides, enemies. But still, the Germans are well-to-do. I have seen. In other countries they are well-to-do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are very respected. German mark is.

Prabhupāda: No, their position, economic position, is also better than France, England. I have seen it. Even in the villages they are well-to-do. They have recouped all they have lost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. Belgium, you go through Belgium, it's still devastated. And Germany is completely built up.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I think in . . . for culture, France, and for improvement, economic development, they have done in Germany.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Britain?

Prabhupāda: Britain is . . . they are shopkeepers. Hitler gave them this title, "Shopkeepers' Nation." That was his determination: "The shopkeepers' nation, I shall turn them again to be shopkeepers, not the empire-holder." That he did. Although he was finished—Germany was finished on account of this—but they executed their determination, British empire finished. That they did. After the second war, British . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finished.

Prabhupāda: Now they are poverty-stricken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So Hitler's grudge against the Englishmen, that is fruitful. Actually he owned the war.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He won. He won the war.

Prabhupāda: Because that was his determination, "I shall finish this British nation. Everywhere they have got flag, all over the world, I shall finish." That he did. And Britishers saved because the Americans joined. Otherwise . . . Churchill, he removed all valuables from London to Canada—all papers, all gold stock, everything. There is a book about this. Just like when there is danger, you rush to save some valuables. Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's what you take first.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So British Empire, so many things in London, he all removed to Canada.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then after the war?

Prabhupāda: Then after war they might have brought again.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, just like when the Muslims attacked India they removed the Deities from Vṛndāvana to Jaipur.

Prabhupāda: Jaipur.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that shows that the Indian people know what the most valuable thing is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Valuable.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When Viṣṇujana had his bus, they were traveling in Texas . . .

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇujana's committed suicide, I think.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What?

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇujana?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no information.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. None at all. Everybody thinks that he must have drowned himself in one of the rivers here in India, because the day that he disappeared he asked you a question, out of . . . just without any reason he asked you to explain the disappearance of Junior Haridāsa. That was on the roof at Māyāpur. Thereafter, that morning, he was not seen again. And neither, I think . . . he's not in the West, in America. No one has seen him. His parents have searched for him. They cannot find him.

Prabhupāda: Even if he has committed suicide, he'll be saved.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If he did that, he'll be . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He lamented. He was very grave. Yoga-bhraṣṭo 'sanjāyate. He'll get another good opportunity to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness—until finally he reaches to Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. And that seems to be more in fitting with his character, very, very . . . I don't think he left. I don't think he left and went back into the material world. It doesn't seem to fit his . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: All right. (end)