760811 - Conversation B - Tehran

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760811ED-TEHRAN - August 11, 1976 - 92:32 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . the existence of God. There must be. How can you deny existence of God? It is not possible. Now, if you are convinced that there is God, then the next question will be, "What is that God? Is He a living being or a stone? What is the nature of God or the features of God? Whether He has . . ." So many things we have to study about. But first of all we have to accept there is God. God, what kind of thing is that God, that is called brahma-jijñāsā. That is the beginning of philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That what is God, what is His nature, what is His feature, what does He do—these things can be inquired by human being. A dog cannot inquire. So if a human being is not interested in these things, he's a dog. Do you agree or not? If a human being is not interested to know about God, then he's dog. This is our first charge. Now let the agnostic refute. Hmm? In human life . . . there are varieties of living entities, so many. The trees are also living entities, but it is standing; it has no other capacity. The birds are there, they're little improved, they're flying, they can move from one tree to another, but they have no capacity to inquire about God. There are so many insects, they are also living entity, but they do not inquire about God. It is only human being, he can inquire about. That particular facility is given.

Shahrezad (Iranian lady): Why . . .

Prabhupāda: Because it is necessary.

Shahrezad: No, I mean the difference between human being and the animals.

Prabhupāda: Huh? What . . .

Devotee: The difference between human being and the animals.

Harikeśa: Why is that?

Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that we have to accept there is God. Now, to inquire about God, this facility is given to the human being. So you must utilize it. Otherwise you are not human. Your business is, by nature's creation, your business is. The human being . . . just like you dress yourself nicely, you comb your hair. That is possible by the human being. An animal may have big hair, but it cannot dress because he has no intelligence. So if you have got intelligence, if you utilize it, then life's profit is there. If you don't utilize it, then you remain lower-grade animal. So in the human form of life, the preliminary is that he can inquire about God, he can understand about God. So if he does not utilize his life for that purpose, then he is animal.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: So Aniruddha Prabhu requires spectacle? Or it is . . .

Arundhatī: No, they're just toy glasses. It's just a toy glasses, toy. He does not require.

Prabhupāda: You require spectacle, glass?

Arundhatī: No.

Prabhupāda: No, I am asking him. Do you require? Yes?

Arundhatī: Prabhupāda is asking if you need those glasses.

Prabhupāda: Yes? All right. So our this philosophy is to educate the human being to know about God. That's all. We have no other business. We're writing books on this subject matter, distributing them, educating them. We are creating preachers who can educate. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Others are denying the human rights. We are giving the human rights. We are so benevolent. Suppose your father has got some money. You are child, you do not know. But if somebody tries to hide that money or does not give you, utilizes for some other purposes; another friend is trying to give you your father's money—who is better friend? Hmm? Who is better friend? You cannot distinguish who is better friend?

Shahrezad: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: You cannot distinguish who is better friend?

Shahrezad: Yes, I can, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Nandarāṇī?

Nandarāṇī: The man who is giving the father's what?

Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your father's money; you do not know. One friend is trying to hide that money, another friend is trying to give you that money. So who is better friend?

Nandarāṇī: The one who is giving or trying to give.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, a human being has got the right to understand God. So one party is denying, the another party is trying to give you. So who is better friend?

Nandarāṇī: The one who is giving you the knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are the best friend of the whole world because we are trying to give him the rightful position. Others are misleading. They are enemies, they are not friend. In the name of friends, they are enemies.

vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca

kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca

patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo

vaiṣṇavebhyo . . .

(Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma)

Therefore Vaiṣṇava is so big. One has got the right to understand God and become perfect, go back to home, back to Godhead, and solve all problems. That is being denied, these rascal civilization.

Shahrezad: I believe in philosophy that the Creator must exist, but I don't know about the stories and details that I hear from . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that you shall understand. First of all you must accept that there is creator. Then we study what is the nature of that creator. Just like these rascals, they are trying to prove that creation begins from stone, matter. Whether that is fact, whether creation begins from stone or from life, these things are to be studied. Creation they are also accepting, but they are trying to prove that creation is from matter. Our proposition is, "No, creation is from life." There are two things: life and matter. These are subject matters for further studies. First of all, we must know there is a creator. The atheists, they say there is no creator but there is creation, do they not? There is creation.

Nava-yauvana: By chance.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, by chance or by arrangement, but there is beginning, creation. Yes, they say: "By chance." Their argument is that prakṛti-puruṣa. Just like young man, young woman meets by chance, and the woman becomes pregnant. So this pregnancy is by chance. That is the argument, is it not? There was no arrangement, but by chance they met and there is pregnancy. Is not that their argument? What is that chance argument?

Nava-yauvana: There is no controller.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no controller. By chance, they meet. There is no controller that brought them together. By chance they came.

Hari-śauri: Things just combine by chance and develop.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of controller. That is their theory.

Nava-yauvana: By accident.

Prabhupāda: By accident. Accidentally they met and there is pregnancy and there is a child. Production, creation. That is their argument. Or what is other argument? So far I know the atheistic . . . what is called, that philosophy? Now I forget it. What is the philosophy of Devahūti-putra?

Harikeśa: Sāṅkhya? Atheistic Sāṅkhya.

Prabhupāda: Sāṅkhya, yes, atheistic Sāṅkhya. This is the atheistic Sāṅkhya. In Bhagavad-gītā there is, kim anyat kāma-haitukam. Find out this. In the Sixteenth Chapter, I think. Jagad āhur anīśvaram, kim anyat kāma-haitukam (BG 16.8). What is that verse?

Harikeśa: Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te.

Prabhupāda: Ah, asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram, kim anyat kāma-haitukam.

Harikeśa:

asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te

jagad āhur anīśvaram

aparaspara-sambhūtaṁ

kim anyat kāma-haitukam

(BG 16.8)

"They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust."

Prabhupāda: This is their accident. Accidentally there is sex desire and something is produced. Still, they cannot say causeless. Because here it is said kāma-haitukam, the lusty desire was there. So therefore the lusty desire is the cause. You cannot say causeless. That is not possible. Aparaspara-sambhūtam. Two, man and woman meets, aparaspara-sambhūtam. Para, apara. But kāma-haitukam. So you cannot say causeless. Then you have to search out wherefrom this lusty desire came. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . find out one cause after another, another, another. Then you'll find sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (BS 5.1). If you go on searching out, you have to find out this cause. Because you are saying the kāma-haitukam, the lusty desire is the cause, nothing else. But if you are a philosopher, then you must find out wherefrom the lusty desire comes.

Harikeśa: It comes from a certain combination of material ingredients.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that means cause after cause you have to find how the combination came. That is called philosophy. Go on searching out, searching out. Then you'll find sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (BS 5.1). We say that kāma-haitukam, that desire is there in Kṛṣṇa. And therefore, you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, that desire has come to you. We see Kṛṣṇa's dealing with gopīs, with Rādhārāṇī, exactly like young man, young woman. The kāma-haitukam is there. It is not fictitious. It has come down, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Kṛṣṇa says . . . the kāma also, you have to accept it, because Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: "Whatever you have got, that is from Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). You cannot say the kāma is independent. That's not fact. It is coming from Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa says everything, kāma is also coming from Him. In another place Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). It cannot be independent. The kāma-haitukam, the man and woman, lusty desire, that also coming from Kṛṣṇa. You cannot finish the subject matter simply kāma-haitukam. Wherefrom this kāma came? Kṛṣṇa answers that: mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. What is that? Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam (BG 15.15). Kṛṣṇa is situated in both the boy's and the girl's heart. So Kṛṣṇa is giving, "You wanted to enjoy. Now here is opportunity, you take it." Then Kṛṣṇa becomes the cause. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam. "You wanted. You have got, here is. You wanted a young boy—here is." Mattaḥ smṛtiḥ. Therefore He's sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (BS 5.1).

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa . . .

(BS 5.1)

So even if you say kim anyat kāma-haitukam, still you have to accept God. There is no escape.

Hari-śauri: They say that the material universe is causeless.

Prabhupāda: Material universe is caused by it, that is . . .

Hari-śauri: They say that it is causeless, there's nothing beyond it.

Prabhupāda: No, how it can be? Material . . . suppose matter. Now this wood is dead matter. Wherefrom it has come?

Hari-śauri: Well, the . . .

Prabhupāda: Not "well." First of all, study this. Wherefrom this wood has come?

Hari-śauri: From a tree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And wherefrom the tree has come?

Hari-śauri: From the ground.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Hari-śauri: So the material elements are already there and . . .

Prabhupāda: Bīja, bīja. Bījāhaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. If you sow the seed, there will come out a tree, and from that tree there will be big trunk, and you cut the tree, then you get wood.

Hari-śauri: That's all right. That's agreed.

Prabhupāda: But that is real, that is intelligence, that wherefrom the tree has come.

Harikeśa: But this has been going on eternally.

Hari-śauri: But the material elements are there, and they just evolve into different shapes and forms.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the original creation is there.

Harikeśa: No, no, it has eternally been going on.

Prabhupāda: Eternally is going on, but the process is here. Eternally this man is born, that does not mean you were not born by your father. You deny your father, eternally born. You must have particular knowledge. Don't talk like that. Eternally is . . . eternally father gives birth, that's a fact. But there must be father. Eternally father is giving birth to a child, that's a fact. Eternally birth is going on, that does not mean denying the father. The father is the cause. Anything law, that is going on eternally. There is no question of . . . nature's law is going on eternally. That is a fact.

Hari-śauri: But if the material elements are there and they're . . .

Prabhupāda: We are talking of the process. Things are going on eternally, there is no doubt about it. The process is also eternal, but we have to study the process.

Hari-śauri: But that's their argument, that the process is just happening by itself; there's no father. They say the process is that the elements are just there.

Prabhupāda: And there is no father. And he had no father, the rascal who is talking? He has no father? Immediately beat him with shoes. (laughter) The rascal, you are talking, you have got your father naturally. Beat him with shoes immediately on his mouth.

Jñānagamya: They say for a plant, ground is necessary, water is necessary, seed is necessary, air is necessary. So why is it that there is only one source?

Prabhupāda: From the one everything is coming.

Jñānagamya: Why isn't it coming from several sources then? Instead of one source, why not several sources?

Prabhupāda: That, he has no intelligence. Just like government has so many departments. But original is the king. The departments are only facilities for functioning. But the origin is the king, government. Because there are different departments, there is no king—this is rascaldom. They are rascals, simply rascals. There is no solid argument against.

Parivrājakācārya: When they say there is no God, sometimes we say: "How do you know?"

Prabhupāda: No, we say that there is a creator, and that is God. By experience we see that there is a creator, and God means the supreme creator. That's all.

Shahrezad: What do you think about the human being's science?

Prabhupāda: Human beings . . .?

Devotees: Science.

Prabhupāda: Yes, science is correct, as far as it is practical. Science means practical. And, so far I know, those who are students of science, they have to appear for practical examination, is it not?

Parivrājakācārya: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Simply theoretical knowledge is not science. So much percentage of oxygen, so much percentage of hydrogen, mix together, becomes water. That you have to demonstrate in the laboratory, create water by mixing of oxygen, like that. That is science. But if you simply theorize, and when I say that you now practically prove, you say "Wait millions of years," that is nonsense, that is not science. That is nonsense. The observation and experiment. Simply observing is not science. And observing—this chemical, this chemical is being combined, then it can be . . . first of all, observation. But when you put into, what is called, experiment, and practically show, then it is science. They say that life is generated by combination of chemicals. So now show me by experiment, then it is science. Otherwise it is nonsense. So the things are going on like this. They are suggesting that life is combination of chemical, but when you ask them to show it by experiment, "Wait for millions of years." This is not science; this is rascaldom. It is just like postdated check. If I give you a check for three hundred years dated back, will you accept it? Million dollars, but the date is twenty-three, not nineteen hundred, twenty hundred, but twenty-three hundred. Will you accept that check? I can say: "By that time I'll get this money and deposit the bank. You take the check." Will you accept that?

Harikeśa: Well, it's better to take that check than no check.

Prabhupāda: A foolish rascal will accept. (laughter) You are rascal number one. You can accept that check; we are not going to. He's proved that you are rascal number one. It is better to have a check. It is better to have a post-check. Just see, these rascals are there. They prefer to be cheated. This is the . . . going on. Therefore these rascals get drunk. Because there are so many poor drunkards there, they will accept this check and they go on cheating, postdated check.

Jñānagamya: The scientists are saying: "We are going to find out."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is postdated check, that I am explaining. Why don't you understand it?

Jñānagamya: But the religionists, they say: "We don't know."

Prabhupāda: No, we do not say about religion. We are talking of science. It will take three millions of years to understand religion for these rascals. They are now animals. Religion is not so easy thing to be understood by cats and dogs. Religion is meant for the human being. In the human society there is religion, not in the dog society or the cats and dogs. They do not understand religion means they are cats and dogs, they are not human beings. Human being is that: athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the nature of God. That is human being. Otherwise cats and dogs.

Shahrezad: So why we are so involved in the material world that most of the human being don't have . . .

Prabhupāda: They are being misled by misleaders, that is the difficulty.

Shahrezad: Yes, but why, God . . . I don't know, but why they don't see, we don't see?

Prabhupāda: They see they are suffering, but they have no eyes to see. They are being slapped both ways and kicked with shoes, but they have no eyes to see. Going on. So much trouble, so many problems that you cannot drive even on the street. We wanted to see some house. Because the street is so congested, we had to wait three days. And still I am thinking that I am making progress. This is rascal.

Shahrezad: Yes, that's right, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Not "yes." First of all understand your rascaldom. You have created such a situation that to go to a place two miles away from my place, I have to wait for three days. And we are taking it as progress. This is rascaldom. But what is inconvenient, we are taking it as progress. To go to a place two miles away, it takes ten minutes or, say, twenty minutes. Now we have to wait two days. And we are taking it as progress. This is called māyā. Māyā means what is not. It is not progress, but we are taking as progress . . . (indistinct) . . . we are taking as progress. This is called māyā. Hmm? What do you say, Nandarāṇī?

Nandarāṇī: I think her question is, is this God's plan or our plan?

Prabhupāda: It is not God's plan, it is your plan. Whatever you make, it will cause inconvenience. And if you follow God's plan, you'll make progress. (devotees in background explaining point) Where is in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said by Kṛṣṇa that you make motorcars like this? He has never said.

Hari-śauri: They get a bit confused because God has to . . . like that man last night was saying not even a blade of grass can move without God's sanction. So they think because God sanctions . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is so many times explained. Just like a child wants to do something. The father says: "Don't do it," I have said several times. Reluctantly, "All right, do it." I have given this example of my practical experience in 1925 or '26 when my son was two years old. There was a table fan, "I would like to touch it." And I said: "No, don't touch." This is child. So, but it's a child. He again tried to touch it. So there was a friend, he said: "Just slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it, slowed the speed and he touched—tung! Then he would not touch. You see? So this sanction was given, "Touch it," reluctantly. Now when he gets experience and I ask him, "Touch again?" "No." So this sanction. All of us who have come to this material world, it is like that. Reluctantly. Therefore God comes again to inform these rascals that, "Now you have tried so much. Better give up this, come to Me again." Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Sanction was given, certainly, and he has experience, very bitter, but still he won't . . . this is obstinacy. Dog's mentality. The father has come personally. Now we have experimented everything—karma, jñāna, yoga, this, that, all nonsense. "Now I say . . ." it is said most confidential, sarva-guhyatamam, "better give up this job. Surrender to Me, come back to Me." So sanction was there, certainly. Without sanction they cannot do it. God created this. That is sanction. You wanted material world to enjoy. "All right, do it. Here is material world. Take as much petrol as you like and drive motorcar and create accident. Do. Go on. But now I am giving you good advice, that give up this business, come back to Me." This is sanction. Reluctant, the same example. I did not like that child to touch the fan, but he would insist. "All right, make an experiment." And when he got the experience, next time, ask him, "Now do it?" "No." This is going on. The sanction . . . without sanction there is no possibility. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam—that is mattaḥ, "From Me." But he's insisting, so therefore sanction—"All right, let him experience." That independence God never touches. So he has got independence. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). So he is creating problem. Still, Kṛṣṇa coming that, "You have created simply problems. What you have gained? Better give up this all nonsense, come to Me." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā.

So those who are intelligent, they are taking up. And those who are still remaining rascal, they are going on. That is our choice, if we want to be intelligent or rascal. Practically, what we have gained by this so-called material advancement? They have created problem, different problems. That's all. But still, we think that it is progress. And this is going on. Without God's sanction you cannot do anything, that's a fact. But what kind of sanction it is, that you have to understand. God is creator, God is giving sanction. Everything is God. Otherwise how He is God? But He has to do. There is a story like that, that the thief is praying to God, "My Lord, give me the chance I can make some stealing in that house." And the householder also praying to God, "My Lord, please save my house, my things may not be stolen." Now God has to adjust. God has to please the thief and the householder. And both of them are prayer. So God has so intelligence, He can do like that. He can give the sanction to the thief and He can give protection to the householder. That is God's position. Because both of them prayers, praying, "Give me the facility." And īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). And He is situated in everyone's heart, and there are so many petitions, and He has to deal with them. That is God. (to new guest) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on, here.

Hari-śauri: But sometimes things happen people don't want to happen.

Prabhupāda: That is their business. They want or they don't want, that's all. Two business. Because their mind is not fixed up, they have got two businesses—"Don't do it," "Do it." That's all. There is no third business. Two things—"Do it," "Don't do it." That's all. Sometimes accepting—"Do it"—and again rejecting, "No, no, don't do it." This is material world. "Do it" and "Don't do it." And things are becoming implicated. Saṅkalpa-vikalpa. So he has to fix up his mind. "I have done so much 'Don't do it' and 'Do it.' Now I shall decide to do only what Kṛṣṇa says." Then his life is perfect. "I shall give up this business, 'Don't do it' and 'Do it.' But I'll simply do what Kṛṣṇa says." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73): "Yes, now I'll do it. What You say, I'll do it." Then his life is perfect. Otherwise he'll continue, "Don't do it," then "Do it," "Don't do it," then "Do it," that's all. And Kṛṣṇa will give him sanction—"Do it" and "Don't do it." Unless he comes to his original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa has to give him sanction, "Yes, do it." "Yes, do not do it." What can be done? But He says that "Give up this business, 'Don't do it' and 'Do it.' Simply do what I say. Then you'll be happy." So unless we agree to that point, we have to continue this material life, life after life, and suffer. Material body means suffering. Either you get human body or animal body or tree body or any body—suffering.

na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam

asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ

parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto

yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam

(SB 5.5.4)

So long one does not inquire about his spiritual position, he'll have to accept this material body and suffer. This is the law of nature. So therefore our business is how to stop accepting this material body. That is the, our business. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted: how to stop accepting this material body. So that is bhakti. Karma, jñāna, yoga, you'll have to accept material body. Maybe better body you may have. But better or bad, worse, whatever body you accept, you have to suffer.

Nandarāṇī: This saṅkalpa-vikalpa is there as long as we have our independence, though. Even as devotees, that accepting and rejecting? That is there even in devotees.

Prabhupāda: A devotee, because a nondevotee has become a devotee, he is practicing how to simply accept Kṛṣṇa's orders. But by his previous habit he's still engaged in "Do it" and "Do not do it." That is his previous habit. Just like this fan is running. You take out the switch, the current is stopped, but it's still running, at least three, four rounds. So similarly, if you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your that current of "Do it" or "Do not" is stopped, because you have agreed to do only what Kṛṣṇa says. If you have actually decided like, then you are free. There is no more current of "Do it" or "Not do it." But because you were habituated in your past life to this "Do it" or "Not," sometimes it is found. But that is . . . therefore Kṛṣṇa says:

api cet sudurācāro

bhajate mām ananya-bhāk

sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ

śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā

(BG 9.30)

He has got little practice of these nonsense things. But if he sticks to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be stopped very soon. That is the only remedy. So a devotee means he has taken vow before the spiritual master, before the fire, before . . . if he sticks to his principle, then he's free, even though some bad habits found due to his past behavior. That will be stopped. But he must stick. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. That must stick. Kṛṣṇa consciousness must continue. Everything will be corrected. And if there is slackness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then again he'll fall down. That I was telling this morning, that if you have determination, māyā will put forward so many impediments, and with all sufferings, if he remains determined in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is success. A man is habituated to smoke. He has given up, has promised no more smoking, just like our students. Now he's put amongst some friends, they are smoking. But he has bad habit, he's thinking, "Why not smoke?" And if the friends offer, "It is friends. Who is going to see, your spiritual master?" "Yes." That is possible. But if he comes to his sense again, "Oh, what I have done?" If he repents, "I promised it before my spiritual master, before God, before fire. Now I'm doing this?" that repentance will help him. And if he thinks that "I'm doing it. My spiritual master is not here, let me fall to it," then he is finished. Then he is finished. If he repents for the wrong he has done, then he's excused. Otherwise finished.

Hari-śauri: Is there any limit to the number of chances that he has?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is limit. Once, twice, thrice. If you make four times, then it is extricated, "Get out, rascal. Cheating."

Ātreya Ṛṣi: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, aren't there fallen sinful people who are still . . .

Prabhupāda: Amongst fallen, sinful people, if you want to remain fallen, sinful, then who can help you? It is up to you. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And if you want to remain fallen, "No, I'll do it, go on," you'll remain. What is objection of Kṛṣṇa? Go on. You are suffering; go on suffering. I give you this suggestion, you do it. If you do it, you become free. But if you want to continue, continue; it is your business. Go on suffering. Why you make Kṛṣṇa responsible? You are responsible for your own activities.

Nava-yauvana: You say if someone has no shame . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, shameless. Dukhankata in Bengal it is called. So if you want to continue, then continue. The facility is already given there. The material world is there. You go on, continue. But if you want to stop it, if you are conscious of the material position, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), then you have to stop it. Kṛṣṇa has given you freedom, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Whatever you like, you can do. If you like to suffer, go on suffering. Who can . . .? It is your business.

Nava-yauvana: But unless one is getting Kṛṣṇa's instruction, he is forced to go on.

Prabhupāda: Yes, māyā is there. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī (BG 7.14). You cannot do anything without knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is there, māyā is there. They'll take care. Kṛṣṇa's agent māyā will take care of you. You have to be taken care, either by māyā or by Kṛṣṇa. If you agree to be taken care by Kṛṣṇa, then you are happy. And if you don't agree, you will be taken care by māyā, you go on suffering. In either case you are not independent. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). That verse is very important—yathecchasi tathā kuru. Find out that verse. It is the last one. Yesterday you found.

Hari-śauri: (devotees discuss about which verse) Oh, I know which one it is. The one about "Now do as you wish."

Prabhupāda: That liberty is always there.

Hari-śauri:

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ

guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā

vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa

yathecchasi tathā kuru

(BG 18.63)

"Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do."

Prabhupāda: So it is your business. "You deliberate on all the points I have told you. Now if you like, you surrender unto Me. If you don't like, you do whatever you like." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). This is God. He doesn't touch on your liberty, little liberty given to you. He doesn't touch. He gives you the right information, right instruction. Now you . . . idaṁ te jñānam? Iti te jñānam.

Hari-śauri: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam.

Prabhupāda: Ākhyātam.

Hari-śauri: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā.

Prabhupāda: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā.

Hari-śauri: Vimṛśyaitad.

Prabhupāda: Vimṛśya, "Now you think over it." Not that blindly accept. You consider, make your deliberation, and then you do whatever you like. This freedom is given. What is the wrong there? Iti te jñānam ākhyātam, "I've explained to you all kinds of different types of knowledge, and ultimately, guhyatamam, the most confidential knowledge I've spoken to you, that you surrender to Me. Now you deliberate on this point very nicely, and then vimṛśya, then after full consideration, do whatever you like." It's everything up to you. There is no force. "If you want to remain in this material world, remain here; suffer life after life. Otherwise you come to Me." That is your choice. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6).

mām upetya kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ . . .

(BG 8.15)

Everything is there. He says very emphatically, vimṛśya, "Just judge, deliberately. Consider it by full consideration. Then decide. You are quite at liberty to do whatever you like. I have spoken everything." This is your position, this is God's position. There is no force. God can force, but there is no force.

Nava-yauvana: For us, that deliberation means to study your books.

Prabhupāda: Everyone has got deliberating power. If you go to purchase one two-cents'-worth lozenges, still you see three qualities are there. It is worth only two cents, but still he sees which one is better, which one is better. That power is there.

Hari-śauri: You say here in the purport, "Before surrendering, one is free to deliberate on this subject as far as the intelligence goes."

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got your intelligence. God has given you intelligence. Now you deliberate. But if you . . . a devotee, without using my intelligence, I surrender. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā (BG 7.19). Immediately you become the greatest mahātmā. If you simply believe in Kṛṣṇa, "What my nonsense intelligence . . .? What Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do. Bās." Your life is perfect. And if you think still that "I am more intelligent (than) Kṛṣṇa, let me deliberate and consider," then you remain rascal. You cannot be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), you take it. That is real intelligence. That is real intelligence. Just like obedient son, "My father says to do it. All right, I shall take it, although it does not appeal to me." That is good son. Natural guardian, father, if son understands, "My father or mother, whatever they will say, it is surely for my good. They cannot be cheater," so intelligent son will take, "Yes, my father says I'll do it. That's all. Never mind it does not appeal to me." That is intelligence, real intelligence. "Because I am immature, my father knows my good. He says: 'My dear son, do it. It will be nice,' I'll do it." That's all. Without any argument. That is intelligence. That is real intelligence. But the father gives the freedom, "Now you deliberate." But it is my duty. When father says, what is deliberation? I'll accept it. That is intelligence. And if you do not do it, then you come to that karma, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). God offers, but the rascal, duṣkṛtina, mūḍhāḥ, narādhamāḥ, will not do it. They'll suffer. "Go on, continue to suffer." He'll not do it: "All right, go on, suffer." Next life if he becomes dog, the ear is there, but he'll not be able to hear what Kṛṣṇa says. Finished. That chance is finished. This is going on. The dog has ear, big ear, bigger than me. But he cannot hear what is Kṛṣṇa saying. That is not possible. But this life I've got this ear, I can hear. If I don't take chance, then how much foolish I am. Next life, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), I'll get next life, next birth.

Now it is not necessarily that I'll get the next life also same ear. No. The ear may be different, the eyes may be different. The eyes are there, ears are there, nose is . . . but it is different. So long we have got these eyes, these ears, this nose, utilize it properly. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja hari ei. Every birth you'll get a father, mother. Because without father, mother, there is no question of birth. But not in every birth you'll get Kṛṣṇa and guru. That is in this birth. Birth you can have. But to have Kṛṣṇa and guru, that is this birth. So utilize this properly. Janame janame saba pitā mātā pāya, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja bhajiya. Very nice. That chance you'll not get. You'll get body, you'll get eyes, you'll get ear, you'll get father, you'll get mother, you'll get food, you'll get sex, you'll get defense—everything you'll get, tathā dehāntara—but not this chance, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja. You'll not get Kṛṣṇa and guru. This is the difference. How nice verse it is. Everything you'll get, but you'll not get this. How nice it is. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), another body you'll get. Another body you'll get means you will get all bodily facilities. There is no scarcity between this body and that body. But only scarcity is that in other body you'll not get Kṛṣṇa and guru. We have to remember this.

Jñānagamya: It is stated in the Bhāgavatam that once in every structure of the universe, that every living entity gets the opportunity to have guru and Kṛṣṇa and very, very nice situation. He gets that opportunity.

Prabhupāda: That I am speaking, that this is the only chance of Kṛṣṇa, guru, and if he neglects this chance, then kanwan sthito'mi ga. What is the loss more than that? We are simply calculating loss and gain. Just imagine what is the loss by misusing this human form of . . . if you want to spoil this life under the influence of misleaders, you can do it. But if we prefer to take the sense of following leadership of Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja . . . (indistinct) . . . that comes mām ekam, ekam—then your life is successful. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66): "I'll give you protection in all respects." So if we don't take this opportunity, then we are cutting our own throat. Do it. You can do it. Who can save you?

Jñānagamya: You have said it's like two airplanes. If an airplane is in trouble, no other airplane can help.

Prabhupāda: No, God can help. Other airplane cannot help. If God likes, He can save you.

Hari-śauri: You were saying that if one is intelligent he can just accept the father's instruction, and he knows it will be good. But most people have such bad experience that every time they've accepted instruction, they've just been cheated, that they're a little slow to . . .

Prabhupāda: What is it?

Dayānanda: Watermelon.

Prabhupāda: No, you said cheated? What is that?

Hari-śauri: Yes. You were saying that by intelligence one can just accept what the father says will be good for him and he'll do it, but most people have such a bad experience in the material world, they get cheated so often . . .

Prabhupāda: That is his misfortune, if the father is cheating him. So that means he's most unfortunate. Father is not expected to cheat the son, but if he's cheated by the father, then he must accept himself as the most unfortunate cheated in the world. Then there is no help. Because he's so unfortunate that he's under the care of a cheater father, then what can be done? Nobody expects that father will cheat. And nowadays it is coming. Mother is cheating, mother is killing, father is cheating. Yes. It is Kali-yuga.

Dayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems as though in the modern scientific idea, so-called scientific idea, is that everyone should have his own individual intelligence, develop himself.

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa also is allowing you, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Deliberate, Kṛṣṇa is giving you. But who is accepting? That you have got your own intelligence.

Dayānanda: But I mean rebelliousness. Everyone should . . .

Prabhupāda: So whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa says that you have got intelligence. "You consider. I have spoken to you. Now you use your intelligence and do whatever you like." Kṛṣṇa does not deny your intelligence. There is no meaning. You have got your intelligence. That is your . . .

Dayānanda: The training is not . . .

Prabhupāda: Training, you take Kṛṣṇa's training. If you don't take, then you remain in your own training. Kṛṣṇa is training you. He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66), but if you don't take His training, then you remain in your own training. Who objects? Remain a rascal. Who objects? You continue to become a rascal. What can be done? That yathecchasi tathā kuru is already said. You use your intelligence. If you prefer to remain rascal, you remain. Kṛṣṇa does not say that, "Don't use your intelligence." What does He say? But if you are actually intelligent, then you will think that "Who can be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa? Let me take His advice." That is real intelligence. Why shall I use my tiny intelligence? That is real intelligence.

Nandarāṇī: Kṛṣṇa was speaking to Arjuna, and Arjuna had real intelligence, but nowadays if someone tries to consider Kṛṣṇa's instructions and deliberate fully and make some decision, he always makes the wrong decision.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore he has to accept spiritual master to guide him. Just like simply by reading books you do not become educated. You go to school and read before the teacher. Then you'll understand. You cannot become a medical man by purchasing books from the market and reading at home. You must go to the medical college. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Not only reading, but you go to the person who is actually realized. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). Everything is there. You cannot understand individually. That is not possible. If you are extraordinarily intelligent, you can do that. That is exception. But ordinarily it is not possible. Therefore the spiritual master is there. He'll guide you.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is watermelon, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You are giving all of them?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, it's from our garden.

Prabhupāda: Give me one piece. Give them. For any intelligent man, Bhagavad-gītā is perfect instruction. There is no doubt about it. But unfortunately most men are rascals. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is perfect instruction. There is no doubt about it. How can I doubt? God is speaking personally.

Jñānagamya: I met a man on the plane coming here just recently Prabhupāda, and he had translated Bhagavad-gītā into Farsi, the Persian language, and I invited him to come here, but he is not coming. He is afraid to meet you, I'm sure. And I told him . . . he was smoking cigarettes and was buying, purchasing liquor on the plane, and I said: "Why are you doing this?"

Prabhupāda: Your duty you have done, that's all.

Jñānagamya: I said, "Why are you doing this? Kṛṣṇa asks for controlled senses, but if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you would have no difficulty. You don't need these things."

Prabhupāda: In the beginning if you said, they will not hear. (all eating watermelon)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Little salt?

Prabhupāda: No. Try to give to the people. If they are fortunate, they will take. (break)

Indian guest: . . . five months. I think you are from the south? Aap south ke hain? (Are you from the South?)

Harikeśa: He wants to know if you are from the south.

Prabhupāda: I am not from south, I am from Calcutta. West, west of India, no? Calcutta is east, yes.

Jñānagamya: They say everything good comes from Bengal. The best poets, the best gurus.

Prabhupāda: Not always. (laughter)

Devotee: Ramakrishna.

Prabhupāda: Nowadays Naxalites are coming. It is the time, Kali-yuga.

Indian guest: No, I'm from far south.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Guest: That's right.

Jñānagamya: His father was attached to British in India. He traveled in India during his boyhood in South India . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: In my young age I had one Afghani friend, he belonged to the royal family. What is the king? Some of their brothers were banished in India.

Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . some brothers of whose?

Devotee: The king.

Prabhupāda: Who was the king?

Indian guest: Yes, there was some Afghan rulers, king, who was . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So one . . . the family were staying in Allahabad. His name was Sen, Sen Aband like that. So he was my friend. He was coming to me, and we were talking. Amar Lakhana, his brother . . .

Indian guest: I see . . . (indistinct) . . . brother.

Prabhupāda: . . . he belonged to the royal family.

Indian guest: That's right. That must be before 1936, though.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I am talking between 1925 to 30. So this same friend was coming to me and we were talking. I think at that time Afghanistan was under British influence? No.

Indian guest: No, we had only one war. That was I think about about sixty, seventy years ago, and they entered and they captured Kabul, but the whole brigade was ripped off. This was the time Churchill was the only one who escaped troops, and that was the end of it. They never . . . (indistinct) . . . it was too risky for them.

Prabhupāda: This Afghanistan, when they were Hindus, this Kandahar, the King of Kandahar, his daughter was married to the Pāṇḍavas. Gāndhārī. Gāndhārī . . .

Indian guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Gāndhārī was the daughter of Kandahar king. Kandahar is still there?

Indian guest: Yes, well, there are quite a number of Hindus, actually, in Kandahar.

Prabhupāda: There are Hindus?

Indian guest: Oh, yes. Most of the business shops are controlled by Hindus. Also in the school, as well, there are lots of teachers, and education is managed by Hindus. But they are for years . . . (indistinct) . . . for hundreds and hundreds of years. You make this tour around the world once a year or twice a year.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I've gone round the world fifteen times within ten years. Naturally more than once in a year. And we have got branches all over the world.

Indian guest: I think the temples are increasing, particularly in Germany, England, and I suppose the same as America as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes, in America we have got forty branches. Our philosophy is simple. We educate people to understand that there is God. This is a godless civilization. So we say that there is God. Try to understand, and love Him, that's all. This is our philosophy. Then you'll be happy. And so long you do not love God, you simply love dog, you'll never be happy. That is our philosophy. You have diverted your loving spirit to the dog. You change it. Instead of loving dog, you love God. Then dog will be loved and everyone will be loved. If you simply love dog, then your love will be simply in dog. But if you love God, then you'll love God and dog also. Just like you are eating. So the eatable is going to the stomach. If you distribute this eatable to the eyes, to the ears, to the nose—there are nine holes—it will be uselessly spoiled. And if you give this foodstuff to the stomach, the energy will be immediately distributed to the ears, to the eyes, to the nose, to the . . . similarly, if you have got a propensity to love, you love God, your love will be distributed everywhere. And if you fix your love to the dog, then it will be uselessly spoiled. That is going on. They have manufactured love for country, for this, that, so many things, but without love of God. Therefore the disturbance is going on. However big nationalist you may be, you cannot make happy anyone. That is not possible. Take for example our Mahatma Gandhi. He's recognized nationalist, but he was killed by his countrymen. That's a fact. That means he could not make happy anyone. So we have got some loving propensity. If we love . . . that is our natural position. If we love God, then our love for others will automatically be done. And on account of loving God, our life will be perfect. What do you think of this philosophy? What do you think of this philosophy?

Indian guest: I think it's the supreme philosophy. It is basic philosophy which has been spoken, and unfortunately no practice, but it's a very good thought.

Prabhupāda: So we are preaching that.

Indian guest: It's a very big part, and inject it again and revive it.

Prabhupāda: Love God.

Indian guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Premā pumartho mahān. Love of God is the highest perfection of life. This is our philosophy. (end)