760604 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

Morning Walks by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760604MW-LOS ANGELES - June 04, 1976 - 57:02 Minutes

(in car)

Prabhupāda: . . . you say everything is created. He is created, this rascal who is saying there is no creator, he's also created. So where he gets this idea, there is no creator?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His mentality is that of an animal. So less intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Animal also knows that he's created by another dog. Otherwise why the little, what is called, cub, puppy, goes up to the mother?

Rāmeśvara: They don't have . . . the reason they don't have an idea is because before you came to America, the understanding of the science of God was presented on a kindergarten level, the Bible. So it did not satisfy their scientific mind. So because before you came to give them the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, they had no information, and they did not accept the Christian version.

Prabhupāda: No, apart from Christian or Hindu, the general mass of people, how they can say that there is no creator? From common sense.

Rāmeśvara: They are accepting authority, and so they say . . .

Prabhupāda: Apart from authority, from practical experience . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are fools.

Prabhupāda: . . . how one can . . .? Eh?

Ṛṣabhadeva: They are trying to avoid their responsibility to that creator. They don't want to accept.

Prabhupāda: You can avoid the creator, but you cannot say there is no creator.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It means they're totally ignorant, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You accept the authority of the creator or not, that is your business. But you cannot say there is no creator. Just like there are many outlaws. They say also, "We don't care for the government."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there is a government.

Prabhupāda: But there is a government. You don't like or don't care, that is your business, but there is a government. How you can deny it? That we shall see later on, how you can neglect government. But there is a government. You have to accept it.

Rāmeśvara: I think it is just in the last few hundred years that these scientists have been given so much prestige and they're making so much propaganda. It's just a recent thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, formerly it was not such a great majority of people who thought like this; it was just a few.

Prabhupāda: So we have to challenge all these rascals.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are giving us the weapons with which to challenge.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Transcendental knowledge. Now the Russians will fall also if our books are introduced there.

Prabhupāda: If actually they are after something reality, they must accept. If they are actually after something reality. It is natural. They have been disgusted with this Christianity. Useless, that's all. But if they are actually serious, then they'll accept knowledge. (japa) (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . exhibit of Baradrāj's in the temple of the Dāmodara and Mother Yaśodā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is nicely done?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (japa) (break) . . . that he is not my father, that is not possible.

Rāmeśvara: They say that the atom is the source of everything.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rāmeśvara: They say that the atom, the little particle, is eternal, original.

Prabhupāda: But you rascal, you are not coming from atom—you are coming from your father. That is my reply. You rascal, you are coming from your father, not from the atom.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How do you say everything comes from the atom?

Rāmeśvara: Originally, they say . . .

Prabhupāda: Originally, go to hell. (laughs) First of all, take your case. "Originally." You do not know your case and you are going to originally. Hele data nakhe yuce. You know this philosophy? Hele, there was some water snake, they have no poison. One snake charmer, he cannot catch even that. And he's trying to catch cobra. So first of all answer your case, then go to "originally."

Rāmeśvara: That's what you said yesterday in discussing that philosopher Skinner. He said first we control nature, then we can control ourselves. And you replied, if you can't control yourself, how you can control such a big thing like nature?

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. They are tiny, insignificant creature and talking big, big things. This is the defect of modern civilization.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a child trying to catch the moon.

Prabhupāda: He has no importance, and he's talking big, big things. The same philosophy. Hele data bai nakhe yuce. He cannot catch even nonpoisonous snake, and he's saying, "I'll catch up a cobra."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a small child trying to catch the moon.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (japa) All these rascals should be approached from personal, you see: "Whether you have come from your . . . is your father monkey? You say that from monkey man has come. You have come from monkey or from your father?" Ask him this question. Naturally he will be ashamed to say: "Yes, I have come from some monkey." (laughs) Unless he is a great fool, he will not say it. Then your father comes from his father, from his father . . . where the monkey comes? Is there in the history of your family that your forefather . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we are studying the bones. That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are digging up bones.

Prabhupāda: That also they cannot say, because we Hindus, we burn the bones. Where you get the bones?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but there's some groups that did not do that.

Prabhupāda: No, some group, not. As a general practice, all Hindus they burn, from time immemorial.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I mean, there are other people in other parts of the world, like in Africa, they found bones from five million years ago, and they say that it's the missing link bones.

Prabhupāda: Missing, why missing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well they couldn't figure it out until they found these bones.

Prabhupāda: That means they couldn't. Still, he says. Just see, he has brought as if he was dog, these rascals. The dog is prohibited. Man is . . . (break) . . . they have got?

Rāmeśvara: Other theories.

Rādhā-vallabha: Theories?

Rāmeśvara: The scientists.

Prabhupāda: Scientists or philosophers, their only business is to defy God. All demons.

Bali-mardana: Actually, Prabhupāda, the people are turning away from the scientists now, because they have seen that their promises have not brought anything.

Prabhupāda: And simply, if we can expose that they never went to the moon planet, their life will be finished.

Devotees: Jaya. Haribol!

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can we expose that, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: To expose . . . they could not answer this simple question, why Sunday first and Monday second? They could not understand, these rascals, I have asked so many. Can you answer this? Can you answer, can any of you, why Sunday first? All over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Saturday last. Why? Answer this. Is there anyone?

Hṛdayānanda: What is the answer, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: The answer is sun planet first, then moon planet.

Devotees: Oh, jaya!

Prabhupāda: And the sun planet is ninety-three million miles, and according to Bhāgavata, the moon is 1,600,000 miles away from sun. So I have calculated the other day that it takes ninety days to go. No?

Hari-śauri: No, six or seven months.

Prabhupāda: Six or seven months it takes to go to the moon planet. How they have gone in four days? They have never gone.

Devotees: Oh, jaya!

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How did you get that calculation, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How did you make that calculation?

Prabhupāda: Calculation, they have calculation that sun planet is ninety-three million miles from. That is, they have accepted. I also accept it. I say the moon planet is 1,600,000 miles still further. So you cannot go to the sun planet, how can go to the moon planet?

Devotees: Jaya.

Candanācārya: Today is the day of scandals. These days, there are so many scandals in the United States.

Prabhupāda: Ask them. If they say moon planet is first, why not Monday first? Why Sunday first? That's a fact. Sun planet first, then moon, then Mars. Ravi, Soma, Maṅgala, Bhū. That is the calculation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means that all the countries are cooperating together to cheat the people, because they're all . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have taken from the Vedic literature.

Bali-mardana: No, they are right, Sunday, Monday.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean to say that everyone is saying that they have gone to the moon, that means they are all together cheating.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rādhā-vallabha: The scientists have got radio-telescopes. They bounce the sound vibration off the planet, and depending on how long it takes the sound to come back, that's how far away it is.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rādhā-vallabha: They bounce sound vibration off a planet, and depending on how long it takes the vibration to come back, that's how far away the planet is. So they've calculated the sun to be farther in that way.

Prabhupāda: First of all, answer why Sunday first. Then talk all nonsense.

Candanācārya: Mars is after the moon?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Candanācārya: Mars is after the moon?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Candanācārya: Because in French, Tuesday is the word for Mars.

Prabhupāda: And Saturday is last. Saturn is last.

Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Each planet 1,600,000 miles away from one another.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 1,600,000.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: They say they went 250,000 miles twice.

Prabhupāda: They say. Let them say. First of all answer "Why Sunday first?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about these pictures we have seen on the television showing them jumping on the moon?

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That you can make in laboratory. That is not very difficult.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Colossal hoax.

Mahendra: . . . pictures are like the King Kong movie.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In King Kong movie they made cotton as cloud. (laughs). They can do everything in the laboratory.

Yadubara: They are making that movie again, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Spending millions to make it again.

Prabhupāda: Which movie?

Yadubara: King Kong.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Rāmeśvara: They have got some gigantic King Kong figure. It moves like a gigantic doll. Actually, to make a movie now they spend maybe ten, fifteen million dollars for one movie. (break)

Prabhupāda: They cannot cleanse nowadays?

Hari-śauri: They made a movie called "2001," and in that they had shots of men on different planets. It looked just like the moon shots. It was very . . . just the same.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, it is very difficult to convince the people that they have not gone to the moon. I mean, that's a good logic, but they'll think that that's very childish for us to say "Sunday first, Monday . . ."

Prabhupāda: Well, let them remain as child.

Candanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda once said that if the moon is dirt and dust, how is it that it reflects the light of the sun so much that it lights up the whole planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The common sense. They have lost their common sense.

Candanācārya: It's so shiny that it lights up the whole earth planet at night.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Candanācārya: How can dirt reflect light like that?

Prabhupāda: That was my first question.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that we should write a . . . we should publish a little book on this, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: If you can.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe one of the scientists.

Candanācārya: There are many scientists who agree.

Prabhupāda: Now our scientists are challenging, Svarūpa Dāmodara and others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They could scientifically publish a book.

Candanācārya: There are scientists in England who agree that they didn't go to the planet.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Candanācārya: There are some scientists in England who agree with you that they did not go to the moon.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they did not. Simply propaganda. (japa) (break) Freedom.

Hari-śauri: It's just like you said in the BTG.

Prabhupāda: Equal rights. The rascal father has left, and poor mother is carrying the burden.

Rāmeśvara: She chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa just by seeing us.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is no other way. We are the only shelter for these forlorn women.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to give them shelter.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly.

Rādhā-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, scientists have this theory called use and disuse. They would say that these birds here that have the long beaks for eating fish, originally they did not have that, but after many, many millions of years of trying to catch fish, gradually their beak became longer. And they would say that would be the origin of that species.

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?

Hṛdayānanda: Madness. He's saying that because the fish are trying to catch fish, therefore . . .

Rāmeśvara: The birds are trying to catch the fish.

Hṛdayānanda: Therefore a beak comes out. (laughter)

Bali-mardana: No, no. That's not the theory. The theory is that the ones with the long beaks are able to catch the fish. Therefore, the other ones die off.

Hṛdayānanda: Therefore they get the long beaks?

Bali-mardana: Just from mutation.

Rādhā-vallabha: That's not. It's another theory.

Hṛdayānanda: Madness.

Candanācārya: It's another theory.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? So that's all right. If we are eager for Kṛṣṇa, we shall get Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we agree with that theory.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: It has been given by Kṛṣṇa because he always wanted to catch fish.

Hari-śauri: They used to give us a simple example at school. They said that the people that lived in Mexico City . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, we accept that. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante (BG 8.6). If, at the time of death, he thinks that, "If I would have possessed a beak," then he gets the life. That's all. (laughter) That's a fact.

Rādhā-vallabha: They say that this is the way the different types of bodies come into being, that by the desire . . .

Prabhupāda: That we say also. There is no difficulty. Because at the time of death, whatever you are thinking, you'll get the next body. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Rādhā-vallabha: They say, though, that this is how the different bodies come into being.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we say also.

Candanācārya: But can any body be generated from the imagination, any kind of . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not this imagination. I wanted that facility, so my subtle mind is wanting that. So nature is supplying, "All right, you get it."

Hari-śauri: We don't create exactly the bodies. We desire them, and the material nature has created already.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rādhā-vallabha: Their theory is that these bodies never before existed, but by the desire of the living entity, that certain type of body was created.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That means nature is above. He wanted that body; nature has given. Is that correct?

Rādhā-vallabha: No, not exactly.

Prabhupāda: Then what is that?

Rādhā-vallabha: That they want a particular facility, and . . .

Prabhupāda: And nature supplies the body, that's all. Simple thing.

Rāmeśvara: But they do not put a limit, 8,400,000. They think that it can keep going on increasing, increasing.

Prabhupāda: Then let it go on. That's all right. What is the wrong?

Candanācārya: By their theory, though, a human being would be able to generate wings or a beak like a bird.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are human beings who can fly in the sky. Siddhaloka. Siddhaloka. There is a planet called Siddhaloka. There the human beings from one planet to another go.

Hari-śauri: They have wings?

Prabhupāda: No wings.

Rāmeśvara: The Gandharvas have wings.

Candanācārya: Why do you need wings if you can fly? Also Garuḍa has a beak. (aside) Where are we going now?

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda said in Hawaii there's no . . .

(pause)

Prabhupāda: The old man, her father?

Hari-śauri: I hope so.

(pause) (break) . . .

Prabhupāda: Send to Svarūpa Dāmodara. He has got also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Monday . . . Sunday, Monday?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Days are in this order. So naturally one has to conclude that sun first, moon second. Naturally.

Rādhā-vallabha: They will say: "Who has set up the order?"

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you accept it. All over the world, nobody says that Monday first. Then?

Candanācārya: Is this also in Sanskrit language? Sunday, Monday?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Ask all scientists this simple question, why, all over the world, Sunday, sun first and moon second? Why? And Saturday last. All of you could not answer this question. (devotees laugh)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have stumped us.

Prabhupāda: Baḍo baḍo bānare, baḍo baḍo peṭa, laṅkā dingahe manamarā heṅṭa. "Big, big monkey, big, big belly. Ceylon jumping, melancholy."

Hṛdayānanda: We are all big monkeys.

Candanācārya: How are they able to perpetuate such an enormous hoax?

Prabhupāda: Enormous hoax for the fools, not for the intelligent persons.

Hari-śauri: They never fooled you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: They never fooled you. (Prabhupāda laughs)

Candanācārya: That means that some people must know the actual truth about the hoax in the American system, so if we can find them . . .

Prabhupāda: So you are knowing that. State it.

Rāmeśvara: In other words, is it . . . is it that there is a deliberate trick? It is deliberate.

Prabhupāda: Ahh, it may not be deliberate, but they are fools. They are talking nonsense. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what about the people, like the men on the ship who say they have jumped on the moon? Are they lying and being paid off, or are they just . . . what, I mean, what is the actual position? Some men are getting on a television saying: "We landed there, it was like this, it was like that."

Prabhupāda: No, I saw that television, at that time, the whole thing broke, wrong. There was a press representative. He protested. I was protesting from the beginning, but they could not show how they jumped, at the last. Going, going, going, but at the time of jumping, melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I mean they do, these men who are space travelers, they say: "We did land on the moon." Now, are they lying?

Prabhupāda: No, they . . . but the television was showing. They could not show this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jumping on the moon?

Prabhupāda: That was not shown.

Candanācārya: They may be hypnotized also.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda said they'd gone to Rāhu.

Rāmeśvara: They have got that dust. They say they got that from another planet.

Prabhupāda: Dust you can take it from here, from this beach.

Rāmeśvara: So then they're lying.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means they're deliberately cheating, knowingly. And the government is backing them.

Prabhupāda: That is your business.

Rāmeśvara: What is the purpose of the cheating?

Candanācārya: Prabhupāda said to get, to ask for taxes.

Prabhupāda: Lābha, pūjā, pratiṣṭhā. These three things are materially wanted. Some material profit, some reputation and some . . . eh?

Devotees: Distinction.

Prabhupāda: Adoration. These are the material demands.

Hari-śauri: Because originally it was built up as a big thing between Russia and America, who would get to the moon first.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now they are shaking hands, and none of them has gone. "I thank you."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's like the emperor's new clothes.

Prabhupāda: "You failed, my dear sir. I failed also. Come on."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a story, "The Emperor's Clothes," "The Emperor's New Clothes." There were these tailors, and they made believe that they were making clothes for the emperor, but actually they were doing nothing, but they were making the motions. So they . . . everybody was saying what nice clothes, and finally . . .

Candanācārya: No, they said, any intelligent . . . only intelligent people will see the clothes.

Hṛdayānanda: And someone who's a fool, he cannot see it.

Rāmeśvara: Magic cloth.

Candanācārya: So they were getting much money for making nothing.

Hṛdayānanda: The emperor went out naked in the street, and everyone was afraid to admit that there was no clothes.

Rāmeśvara: Because they would be labeled fool.

Hṛdayānanda: So finally one boy said: "But the emperor has no clothes."

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a nice story in this connection. There was one Gopal Bhad. So he was very cunning fellow, in the Muhammadan period in Bengal. So the Muhammadan Nawab asked him, "Gopal Bhad, can you prepare a Mahābhārata in my name?" "Oh, yes!" So, "I'll engage so many paṇḍitas, and they will make a Mahābhārata, your activities, your glories, everything. So give me one hundred thousand rupees, just begin." He was taking money, taking money, "Yes, it is going on, going on." "Then when it will be published?" "Yes, just last few days more. Now, sir, everything is prepared. So the one thing is, you have to give me information how many husbands you have got, your wife, huh? How many husbands your wife has got?" That is very insulting. "What, you nonsense, you take." "No, that is the main feature of Mahābhārata. Draupadī had five husbands, so how many husbands your wife has got? Tell me that." Then, "No, no, I don't want that. I am the only husband." "Then how can you write Mahābhārata?" (laughter) "I don't want." "All right. If you want Mahābhārata you must tell how many your wife has got husbands." That he cannot say. So Mahābhārata finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he kept the money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That already, he took that, "I have to steal to pay so much money. Give me." That's all right. So these are . . . scientists are doing like that. At the end, how many husbands your wife has got?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Scientists are doing the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Taking money.

Rādhā-vallabha: They have one argument, that during solar eclipse, the moon appears to pass in front of the sun, between the sun and the earth.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda explains that. It is the Rāhu planet.

Rādhā-vallabha: But they are viewing the moon. The moon is right there, they can see it. And all of a sudden it goes in front of the sun.

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Moon is there, sun is there. Now which first? That is the question.

Rādhā-vallabha: They will say that they've observed in their telescopes the . . .

Prabhupāda: They'll say . . . whatever they'll say it is all right. First of all, say why Sunday first. Then talk all nonsense. First of all, answer this. You cannot say, "We believe that Sunday first." What is the fact? Why do you bring moon, Monday? Why not bring . . .?

Rādhā-vallabha: They will say it is arbitrary order.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rādhā-vallabha: Then they will get back to their argument.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Arbitrary order is not science. That you cannot.

Candanācārya: How can it be arbitrary if every culture in the history of the planet has accepted that order? How can it be arbitrary?

Rādhā-vallabha: That doesn't mean it's not arbitrary. Do you accept?

Hṛdayānanda: Rādhā-vallabha is a rascal. (laughter)

Mahendra: Thirty or forty years also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, one man made a little plaster body of a human being, and he planted it in his back yard in England. And then he dug it up and said: "Oh, look, I've found the oldest man in history!" And all the scientists came and they went, "Oh, yes, this is the oldest man in history." And for twenty or thirty years many men got their Ph.D.'s by writing about how this plaster was the oldest man in history.

Prabhupāda: Yes, such fools are leaders.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the business of dogs, digging up bones. (laughter)

Rādhā-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, by calculating the movements of the moon, scientists can predict years in advance when the solar eclipse will be.

Prabhupāda: That is not their invention. That is already there.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: We shall go further? No? (japa)

Hari-śauri: One thing is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they've wrongly calculated the distance of the moon, then how is it that they're able to calculate these eclipses and whatever?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know. First of all, answer this. Yes. They say the moon planet first. I say, no, sun planet. First of all . . .

Trivikrama: But they can see the moon comes in front of the sun.

Candanācārya: This is some other planet.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Candanācārya: That must be some other planet.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Candanācārya: This one that comes in front of the sun.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we . . . all over the world, they accept Sunday first.

Mahendra: All of their successes are accidental. Just like they discovered the planet called Pluto. The way it was discovered was one man recognized that there was a fluctuation in the orbit of the planet Neptune, and so he made some calculations and figured that the fluctuations were caused by another planet that must be further away than Neptune that no one has discovered yet. So he made many calculations and figured out where the planet should be, how big it should be, how much it should weigh, how far away it was. So then he told other scientists about it, and they looked in their telescopes, and sure enough, there it was. But it wasn't as big as he said, nor was it as heavy as he said, nor was it as far away as he said, and when they rechecked the data they found that the orbit of the original planet wasn't really wrong either. So all of his calculations were wrong, but still the planet was there. So somehow or other he stumbled upon it, but all of his calculations to find it were absolutely wrong. That's the planet called Pluto.

Prabhupāda: Recently there was an propaganda, that comet?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it would come and destroy.

Prabhupāda: There was no comet.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They said it would destroy . . .

Prabhupāda: Destroy . . .

Mahendra: They made a mistake on their telescopic . . . (indistinct)

Hṛdayānanda: They predicted a comet that never came.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Fifth Canto you wrote that the planets are being pulled in their orbits by chariots. Just like there is a description of the sun planet, and there is a very elaborate . . .

Prabhupāda: That is movement. Now, according to their calculation, sun is fixed up, but according to our calculation it is moving. That is the difference.

Rāmeśvara: And it is actually being pulled by a chariot and horses.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is moving. Either chariot or on leg. That does not . . . it is moving. Moving is the point. Either on chariot or on leg, that doesn't matter. Sun is moving. But they say sun is fixed up.

Trivikrama: They say it's moving, but not the way we say, around the earth.

Prabhupāda: No, they do not say.

Trivikrama: They say it has it's own . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Sun is fixed up.

Rāmeśvara: It is moving by manipulation of air, just like our airplane is moving by manipulating the air.

Prabhupāda: First of all, solve this question, that how . . .?

Rādhā-vallabha: You had us on that one.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rādhā-vallabha: You got us on that one.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said you have caught us. We cannot give a reply.

Prabhupāda: Yes, big, big belly. And what is that, Bhārgava? No. What is his name? Bhagavat?

Devotees: Bhagavat.

Prabhupāda: He has got big belly. (laughter) And Brahmānanda.

Hari-śauri: Gargamuni.

Prabhupāda: Gargamuni also. Acyutānanda, yes. In India?

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: These karmīs and their sputniks, they're claiming they're going to heavenly planets, all these planets all over the universe, but you tell us that they can't actually go to these places.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you have got suitable machine you can go.

Bhūdhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhūdhara: They now say that they're going to attempt to create a planet that has perfect air and trees, and they're only charging . . .

Prabhupāda: Another bogus. Another bluff. So be satisfied with their bluffs. That's all. (break) (conversation continues in car)

Rāmeśvara: The sun planet is seated on a chariot, and it is pulled by horses? They take it to be mythology.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Rāmeśvara: They cannot imagine how horses can be flying in the sky.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And pulling an entire planet.

Prabhupāda: Because you cannot imagine it, there is no such thing? What is the value of your imagination?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you just said by imagination you can grow a beak.

Prabhupāda: If some horses can fly in the sky, what your imagination will check it?

Rāmeśvara: But they say that the planet is so heavy and so big it is not possible for a mortal . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. The planet is . . . how it is floating in the air?

Rāmeśvara: They have an explanation for that.

Prabhupāda: No. You do not know the explanation. There are so many other things. Just like we say there is ocean of milk, ocean of liquor, ocean of oil.

Rāmeśvara: No, all of that they take to be . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mythology.

Rāmeśvara: . . . imagination.

Prabhupāda: But why? Your imagination. You have not gone throughout the whole universe. You cannot say. You are imperfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they say neither you have gone, so how can you know . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I have got authority—you have got no authority.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, simply some story books, they say.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Whatever it may be, I can present some literature, but you have nothing. You rascal. (laughs) Whatever it may be, I have got something, but you have nothing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember studying in college about this, that we were studying Indian art, and they showed pictures of people on other planets and all these things, the demigods, and the teacher said: "These are the mythologies of India."

Rāmeśvara: Just like the Greek mythologies.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is . . . we have got books, and these books are authorized, they are accepted by authorities, but what you have got?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have their fairy tales, they call it, imaginary tales.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we have got something. I may believe it. That's all. You believe your imagination, we believe this. That's all. Finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ours are better.

Prabhupāda: Your imagination is also rascaldom, and if our, it is rascaldom, that's all right—you are rascal, I am rascal. Why do you pose yourself you are learned?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the point.

Prabhupāda: Don't pose yourself that you are learned.

Rāmeśvara: They say that for thousands and thousands of years man has believed in God, and as a result . . .

Prabhupāda: That I am speaking daily, you must believe in God, the creator.

Rāmeśvara: They say that before the scientific revolution . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no scientific . . . it is all rascal revolution. If you cannot answer these questions that you are created by your father, so why there should be no original creator? You cannot say that you have dropped from the sky.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, originally, everything came . . . man came from the monkey, monkey came from another animal, and everything came from an atom.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Come to practical, that you are created by your father. That you have to accept. So similarly, everything we see . . . this car is created by someone. Everything we see, created. So how can you say that there is no creator? Within our experience we see everything is created by someone.

Rāmeśvara: Creative energy is there.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the fact is . . .

Rāmeśvara: Impersonal.

Prabhupāda: Not impersonal, personal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But then who created the creator?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That we shall see, but first of all you have to accept there is a creator.

Rāmeśvara: They will agree . . . some people will agree . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Rāmeśvara: . . . that there is energy for creating.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.

Rāmeśvara: But they do not give one person the credit.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Just like this manufacturer of this car, he's not handling this creation by his own hand. He has got money, energy. He pays the mechanical person to create, but ultimately it is Ford. Ford is not creating everything. Ford's money, Ford's employees, workers, they are creating, but the name is Ford. Similarly, everything is being created by God. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). And He has got so many working hands. That is also . . . parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Multi-energies, they are doing like that. But He is supervising, "Have you done this?" "Yes." "That's all. Go on." So how can you go beyond your experience? Everything is created. A child may think, "How this car is created?" But it is, factually, it is created. He cannot imagine how this nice car is created. Why child? Even elderly persons in a nondeveloped country, they'll be surprised how this car is created. They cannot do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That means they're ignorant.

Prabhupāda: That's all. So you cannot imagine that the sky is created, this water is created. That is beyond your experience.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you cannot do it, you think no one can do it.

Prabhupāda: You cannot do it. But why another cannot do it? As I see, I cannot manufacture the car, but somebody else can do it. Similarly, the whole big thing, cosmic manifestation, I cannot do it, but somebody may do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are small-minded.

Rāmeśvara: It's like you were saying for this philosopher, Sartre. We see our practical experience is that someone has less intelligence, someone has more intelligence. So we should understand that God means . . .

Prabhupāda: The ultimate intelligence. That's all.

Rāmeśvara: So now these governments are very rascal. They are cheating the people deliberately.

Prabhupāda: Well, government means combination of cheaters like you. What do you expect more than that? If you are cheaters, then you go to the government. Someway or other get vote, bribe or something nefarious you do and get vote, and they become cheap government man. And then do your business. Because you are cheater, you have come to the post of prestige and power. What you will do? You know simply only cheat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he'll cheat more.

Prabhupāda: That's all. You have now got the power. You cheat more.

Rāmeśvara: The people in America that claim that the American government is controlled by Communists, they say that these big, big bankers, the very rich, rich people, that they are actually . . . their theory is Communist government, or . . . not Communist, dictatorship, and that they are secretly manipulating.

Prabhupāda: What is their aim?

Rāmeśvara: Power.

Prabhupāda: Power . . . anyone who has got money, he has got power. That is open secret. What is the secret? (laughs) If you have got money, you have got all power.

Rāmeśvara: They're very expert in making the people think that this is democracy and that the people have power. (static)

Prabhupāda: If you can purchase vote by paying money, then where is democracy?

Rāmeśvara: Just like one of their arguments is that these rich bankers, they can control how much money is being printed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose I stand for presidency, and I take money from bank and bribe and get vote.

Rāmeśvara: So they can actually create, by their control, a depression.

Prabhupāda: Yes, money can buy. The real thing is money. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Money is the criterion in the Kali-yuga. If you have got money, then you don't require anything—you can purchase anything.

Rāmeśvara: Purchase justice.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. So therefore people are trying to get money somehow or other. Then he knows, "I get all power." The present struggle is everyone is trying to get more, more, more, more money. Because everyone knows if I get money then I . . . just like the Beatles and others. Actually what they have got qualification? They have got money. (static) That's all. What qualification is that? Singer. Singer, according to Vedic culture, third-class, fourth-class man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śūdra.

Hari-śauri: Most of these famous stars, they are all really the lowest grade people as well. Very low grade.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, this John Lennon, how he dares to photograph naked with his lover? How lowest class man he is, that he has no shame even. And he's also big man. Press reporters go to take his opinion on certain subject matters. They do not know where I am going to take opinion. What is the value of this man? But people are after money. Why? "I have got money." That's all.

Hari-śauri: They hold great sway with the general public as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: One of the reasons why they did not want John Lennon to be allowed to stay in the United States was because they said that he had too much influence with the young people.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he spoiled these. They are already spoiled, and that the government has done nice thing. What is his value? But because he has got money popularity, he has become big man.

Rāmeśvara: So there is this theory that there is a conspiracy all over the world that the rich men to control.

Prabhupāda: That is, we say. If you have got money, you can make conspiracy or anything, whatever you like. Conspiracy I cannot make; I have no money, I cannot make conspiracy. But if I have got money, I can develop a conspiracy with my money. That one man asked, "Have you got any intelligence?" The man began to . . . "Let me see." "What is that?" "I am seeing my pocket." "Why pocket?" "Intelligence means pocket." If there is money in my pocket, then there is intelligence. Otherwise, I have no intelligence. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita also said, daridra-doṣo guṇa-rāśir nāśī. A man may be very, very big, qualified man, but if he's poor, everything's finished. Daridra-doṣo guṇa-rāśir nāśī.

Rāmeśvara: So when they come to our temples and they see that the temple is very opulent, then they think we are intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they are, more and more now.

Rāmeśvara: The Church does this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More and more our Society is getting respect because of the big buildings.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Rāmeśvara: New York.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why, I think, your Guru Mahārāja was in favor like that.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, he said that potthor katha ke usa cane gauri ber katha. If you remain poor, then nobody will hear.

Rāmeśvara: And this diorama project will also give us a lot of respect.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I have got many things, stock. We shall exhibit gradually. We have got many things in stock.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many new ideas.

Prabhupāda: First of all, I started the book. That is, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is becoming successful. Then diorama. Then I shall give next idea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This diorama is a major idea.

Prabhupāda: (laughs)

Rāmeśvara: I brought the Time magazine people to see it. They were so impressed they wanted to come when the museum is open, to make a story.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: They never saw anything like it.

Prabhupāda: Deal with them very nicely. We get publicity.

Rāmeśvara: It's very costly.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. Cost, Kṛṣṇa will send money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This project here will cost how much? About seventy . . .

Rāmeśvara: The actual project, without considering how much the devotees live on, forty thousand dollars.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, more than that.

Prabhupāda: Never mind.

Rāmeśvara: That's the budget for the project, not counting the devotee maintenance.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than that.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. You can you can raise that four times price.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we don't mind the cost of it?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the BBT is paying part of the . . .

Prabhupāda: And at least, by tickets, people will pay ten dollars.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's Baradrāj's idea, to tickets.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Otherwise, how we will raise the money? Book Fund cannot give.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Book Fund has been giving one half . . .

Rāmeśvara: But now . . .

Prabhupāda: That can be given as loan, not for . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As loan, the whole thing . . .

Rāmeśvara: Originally you told me wherever they go, the temple will pay fifty percent and the BBT will pay fifty percent.

Prabhupāda: No, that is loan.

Rāmeśvara: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's got to be a loan.

Prabhupāda: BBT is . . . our policy is fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for temple. Nothing else.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Strict.

Rāmeśvara: But that fifty percent for temple is only as loan.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Except in India, (laughs) then it is gift.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because we are rich Americans.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is contribution to your Guru Mahārāja.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Rāmeśvara: (laughs) Jaya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is our guru-dakṣiṇā.

Rāmeśvara: There is just one problem, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If the temple thinks that they are going to have to pay for the entire project, it is so costly that they don't want to pay so much. They cannot afford. That's why you originally . . .

Prabhupāda: If they cannot pay, we are not going to hang them. But the condition is this, they must pay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe for those who will not pay, we could do simple ones, just with the, a . . .

Prabhupāda: We do not say that, "If you cannot pay, I will hang you." No. "Pay. Try to pay." In our Hyderabad scheme, we have taken three, four lakhs loan from you. And he has taken, Jayapatākā has taken, you know? Nobody has paid me. Till now. But there is promise they will pay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's good. At least the big temples, Rāmeśvara, in the beginning can certainly afford it.

Rāmeśvara: On a long-term basis.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I won't even, for New York, I won't even take a loan.

Prabhupāda: No, we can forward loan if it is absolutely necessary.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I won't need it. We have the money.

Prabhupāda: Oh, this side also road is becoming . . .

Rāmeśvara: All the way down from the beach to downtown Los Angeles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fixing it.

Rāmeśvara: This is going to be one of the main streets in Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's great.

Prabhupāda: (japa) (end)